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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    But Cork County and City councils actually have a slight notion about forward planning. Fair play to them for pushing ahead and getting ready. It should certainly be a priority over the Galway Bypass anyway or the M17. Cork is Ireland's second largest city afterall.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    and Limerick the third....what a shame they built the M8 rather than a combination of M7 and M20....two motorways either side of a little mountain range is laughable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Just watching a wildlife programme on RTE (Here: http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1054198 ) and mention is made at around 10:30 of "a major new road" to be built through Cascade Wood in County Cork. I presume this is the M20? I have to say, I think it would be a major shame to run it through this particular area; if it can be avoided, then it really should be.

    EDIT: Actually, at the very end it was stated that Minister Gormley rerouted the road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Furet wrote: »
    Just watching a wildlife programme on RTE (Here: http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1054198 ) and mention is made at around 10:30 of "a major new road" to be built through Cascade Wood in County Cork. I presume this is the M20? I have to say, I think it would be a major shame to run it through this particular area; if it can be avoided, then it really should be.

    EDIT: Actually, at the very end it was stated that Minister Gormley rerouted the road.

    It's the N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney road. The Woods were recently designated a SAC and the road was re-routed by approx. 4km.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    newmotorway.jpg


    This is the complete motorway network of the country.

    This integration.
    Connects all the major cities accross the country.
    Waterford - Cork
    Limerick - Cork
    Cork - Limerick - Galway.
    Galway - Limerick - Waterford

    This route will be called the M10. This route is slightly longer than the whole M20.
    But it combines both the N20 and N24 as a multiplex route. This intergration also pulls the plug on all routes to Dublin fiasco.


    The reason I called this route the M10 as it seems to fit in with the M11 and M9 motorways. The new M20 is the Adare bypass exstension. Since the existing M20 is already resigned officially as M20 there is no point changing the route number. I'd keep the motorway numbers in existing numberings. The N24 is de trunked on the map also.




    There is also another segement to the map that is different. The N77 is routed to the M7/M8 junction and off the N8. The other route is now the new N78 (Cork - Kilkenny road at freshford- Urlingford) This new route numbering intergrates the National routes into the new interurban network. I'm not t sure who advised someobody about the New route to Cork - Kilkenny via Urlingford a few weeks ago. I thought this was a very good route for the future.


    Some junction designs on the new M10


    Junctionnumbers.jpg


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Can I just say to those people advocating new routes in place of the 'traditional routes' that the additional length is critical to the benefit cost ratio of the scheme. If a route is longer you will get less people using it for a start. But suppose that you get a notional 10k (AADT) vehicles travelling an additional, let's say, 30km that would then work out at an additional 109,500,000 vehicle km's per annum. Multiply that by the 15 year analysis period you get additional 1,642,500,000 vehicle km's (that is supposing zero growth over that period). Put a notional value on people's time and it starts to add up to a very significant 'cost' in the Cost Benefit Analysis of a particular scheme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭KerranJast


    If the M20 is instead just the M8 with a spur off from Mitchelstown to Limerick then two big towns of Mallow and Charleville will be a good distance away from the motorway. The Mallow->Mitchelstown road is very bad and the Charleville -> Tipp (R515) is not much better. Consequently a large majority of the traffic from Mallow and NW of Mallow will still use the N20 and that means the high numbers of road fatalities will continue unless the dangerous sections of the N20 are upgraded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    The Limerick to M8 route passes directly through a small mountain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    The Limerick to M8 route passes directly through a small mountain.

    Lol.

    I've seen people living on mountains. I really do not understand the mentally of We Irish sometimes.

    It's a hole let's avoid that.
    It's to far. Lets not bother
    Its to high I might get sick.

    They built the R513 through the mountain.

    You should see the motorways they build in France, Spain, Potugal, ALbania, Switzerland.


    The "small mountain" here is a like a no hill to the road builders there.


    I die a little whenever I see post's like that.:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭biffoman


    aren't a company from Spain over here building the m6 ,AFAIK.who ever selects the route should be condemned


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    mysterious:

    The difference here is that the land is mostly flat apart from the hills/pretend mountains. There's absolutely no reason to build through the hills for the most part (although it does happen), whereas elsewhere it may be a case of building through some hills or mountain foothills to avoid major mountains in a large area that there is no getting around.

    We do have major infrastructure where necessary you know, but there's no point plonking motorways through mountains just to make it look nicer on a map! At the very least there is more of a gap through the Galtees just a little bit west of your line (which is almost on top of a peak) so why on earth would you not build the road there rather than through the peaks?

    Despite the degree of incompetance and private agendas that pervades the upper echelons here, it does *not* mean that everything done here is idiotic and that *everything* done by those in charge is moronic. For the most part despite the glaring mistakes, things are reasonably enough done here. And while I do personally believe there are other countries in Europe that outperform us in many areas, they are not without fault either. There are plenty of EU countries that seem less able to run their countries than us, despite our present predicament - I won't list them in case of offending, but just look to the south and a few spots in the east. I would place us near the middle of the league of EU countries in terms of *general* performance (despite particular failures here like broadband provision).


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    That M10 proposal is certainly not the daftest idea that mysterious ever had :)

    seeing as the N25 is effectively canned and the N20 is also canned there would be some time to explore this one


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The Limerick to M8 route passes directly through a small mountain.

    Need it though? The Galtees wouldn't be a problem. The Ballyhouras might be, but the range isn't vast, and you could go around them - or even through them. They're soft as sand(stone).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Hmmm... not sure about the motorway that goes from Limerick to near Mitchelstown. It stretches for kilometres without hitting any population centres. If that was to be built however, the junction near the Galtees should be moved further south. No point having it in the mountain.

    I also somehow doubt people would use your proposed route from Cork to Waterford - it's just too long-winded. No need for full-blown motorway to Waterford from the Galtees junction either, 2+2 will do I reckon.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I would make Waterford Cahir straight , then it is your choice if you take short route thru Tipp to Limerick or the long route via Mitchelstown.

    I know what I would do on a dark wet friday night in November. So what if it is 30 miles longer, it would be quicker at peak times all year and much of the rest of it too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    My motorway plan is the way to build motorways. They are not supposed to feed every town along the old national route. They are long distance infrastructure connecting the larger populations on the national grid. This motorway plan would connect all the Southern National routes N20, N24, N25 With just one motorway. Motorways were never meant to be snaking around all over the map parellel to each other. Ireland is a very small country. There is no need for many motorways. If people find the route a little longer use the old roads. The motorways are there to connect the main cities with a fast transport corridor.

    Look at lyon Paris, and Bordeaux Lyon motorways. They agglomerate and multiplex many motorways into a trunk network. The M6, and M1 in England are the same. Ireland's population is far to small to have to many motorways to close to each other.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Furet wrote: »
    Need it though? The Galtees wouldn't be a problem. The Ballyhouras might be, but the range isn't vast, and you could go around them - or even through them. They're soft as sand(stone).


    The Galtees is not affecting this route selection at all. The Ballyhouras range only marginally touches it. The route is on the flattest part of the mountain range. I don't know what on earth thinking with the idea we cant build on non flat land. It seems like We irish people are stuck in more delusions again. people are so allergic to the idea that a motorway going over higher altitudes. I just don't understand it.


    Irish people still have ridicoulous phobias. Like high rise building, subways, vertical alititude motorways, and anything modern:D



    [HTML]<iframe width="640" height="480" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=p&ll=52.325268,-8.263092&spn=0.201438,0.439453&z=11&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=p&ll=52.325268,-8.263092&spn=0.201438,0.439453&z=11&source=embed&quot; style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>[/HTML]

    Cant insert link grrr...

    It might even make the route a little more interesting. :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Can I just say to those people advocating new routes in place of the 'traditional routes' that the additional length is critical to the benefit cost ratio of the scheme. If a route is longer you will get less people using it for a start. But suppose that you get a notional 10k (AADT) vehicles travelling an additional, let's say, 30km that would then work out at an additional 109,500,000 vehicle km's per annum. Multiply that by the 15 year analysis period you get additional 1,642,500,000 vehicle km's (that is supposing zero growth over that period). Put a notional value on people's time and it starts to add up to a very significant 'cost' in the Cost Benefit Analysis of a particular scheme.

    This wont be a problem as the current N20 is god awful. Still the M20 needs to be near the towns the current N20 serves. Mallow-Cork is a busy commuter belt so that should be noted. Overall I would not be in favour of this new route proposed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    tech2 wrote: »
    This wont be a problem as the current N20 is god awful. Still the M20 needs to be near the towns the current N20 serves. Mallow-Cork is a busy commuter belt so that should be noted. Overall I would not be in favour of this new route proposed.


    Mallow Cork route is fine and has been upgraded. The long distance heavy traffic will give a lung to this road. The road will be safer as long distance and H.G.V will use the motorway.


    MOTORWAYS ARE NOT BUILT TO SNAKE AROUND TOWNS.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    They are not supposed to feed every town along the old national route.

    Here, on another thread you go off on because the M7 ISN'T feeding every town along the old national route. Can you have some consistency please?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Here, on another thread you go off on because the M7 ISN'T feeding every town along the old national route. Can you have some consistency please?


    When accusing someone of saying something please back it up with sources. Oh and if you really want to make another rant at me, why don't you go the appropriate thread.

    Funny how you always goad at me so pubically on this forum. I'm not going to judge you though:)

    Now I gave the respect to at least answer you and that will be now my last final answer to that.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    When accusing someone of saying something please back it up with sources. Oh and if you really want to make another rant at me, why don't you go the appropriate thread.

    Funny how you always goad at me so pubically on this forum. I'm not going to judge you though:)

    Now I gave the respect to at least answer you and that will be now my last final answer to that.


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61229332&postcount=93 and your replies to replies. You whimper that the towns on the old route don't get served by the new one, stomp your feet and generally cry about it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Mysterious, can we have the Mxxx straightened out between Clonmel and Cahir and by lunchtime please !!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Mysterious and MYOB, desist from the acrimonious tete-a-tete please.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Cripes. There is no need for a motorway on the Limerick Waterford route. It is not as if motorways need to go past every single town in the country to be considered served by the motorway. As far as i know you can from Clonmel (for instance) without hitting another town all the way to Cork, and soon to Dublin. 95% of the distance motorway. Once the M9 comes online there will be two routes to Dublin. The motorways will be either 10 miles away, or 30 miles away. Carrick is closer to the M9 , and further away from the M8 but you can drive to the M9 near Waterford, or Kilkenny. On completion, I mean.

    In effect both these towns are served by motorways, then, and Cahir is on the motorway. The road needs to be upgraded on the way to Tipp town ( which is what - 20 miles from the M8?) , but that is it. The Tipp towns have their motorways.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    mysterious wrote: »
    The M6, and M1 in England are the same.
    Yes, and look at all the widening schemes these major motorways have had to go through, something ridiculous like 5 or 6 lanes on parts of the M1.

    You can argue rationalisation, but I wouldn't use England as an example of a success story of this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61229332&postcount=93 and your replies to replies. You whimper that the towns on the old route don't get served by the new one, stomp your feet and generally cry about it.

    The interchange "already exists there" There is one interchange for 24 miles and it has no access to the south of it.


    Totally different argument.


    Agrees with Furet. No if you don't mind I have to get a bus in about 10 minutes:p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Yes, and look at all the widening schemes these major motorways have had to go through, something ridiculous like 5 or 6 lanes on parts of the M1.

    You can argue rationalisation, but I wouldn't use England as an example of a success story of this.


    It serves populations of around 30 million that's why. Ireland has a very high amount of motorways but none of them work efficiently or are integrated. The M1 could handle the 4 inter urbans combined and it will still be half empty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    It serves populations of around 30 million that's why. Ireland has a very high amount of motorways but none of them work efficiently or are integrated. The M1 could handle the 4 inter urbans combined and it will still be half empty.

    Our motorway network will be very efficient when its complete and I dont mean just the inter urbans under construction. I also include the M20, M18 and M17 into this. They may have low levels of AADT but they are future proofed. Look at the German motorway network with several alternative routes available


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    The interchange "already exists there" There is one interchange for 24 miles and it has no access to the south of it.


    Totally different argument.


    Agrees with Furet. No if you don't mind I have to get a bus in about 10 minutes:p

    Its an identical argument - in one thread you argue that we need to serve all areas served by the former primary, allowing local traffic on; and in this one you state that we don't, that the route is stragetic and long distance. You have no consistent standing on the matter.


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