M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The difference between Motorway and 2+2 minimal. As well 2+2 reduces your ability to follow existing route where road is fairly easy realigned. Galway-Limerick showed the lunacy of over specification of a road. High class single carrigway similar to Abbeyfeale- Castleisland or what is going past Knock Airport is more than adequate

It’s going to be dual carriageway from Pallasgreen to Waterford in the current plan

(As an aside, they are also replacing the section past Knock Airport with a dual carriageway)

Cookiemunster

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The difference between Motorway and 2+2 minimal. As well 2+2 reduces your ability to follow existing route where road is fairly easy realigned. Galway-Limerick showed the lunacy of over specification of a road. High class single carrigway similar to Abbeyfeale- Castleisland or what is going past Knock Airport is more than adequate

The difference between motorway and 2+2 is not minimal. A 2+2 has a lower design speed, no hard shoulders and at grade junctions. And I fail to see how any road with a hard shoulder can't be upgraded to 2+2.

Anyway I'm pretty sure that TII have stated that there will be no more wide single carriageway and that it'll be 2+2 from now on.

pajoguy

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The difference between motorway and 2+2 is not minimal. A 2+2 has a lower design speed, no hard shoulders and at grade junctions. And I fail to see how any road with a hard shoulder can't be upgraded to 2+2.

Anyway I'm pretty sure that TII have stated that there will be no more wide single carriageway and that it'll be 2+2 from now on.

Yes wide single carriageway is lethal.... Croom bypass is not a good place to be when numerous cars are bumper to bumper at 110kph...Not sure how there arent more serious accidents on it. I have seen people overtake the people overtaking the vehicles that pull into the hard shoulder. Literally 3 abreast with oncoming traffic having to enter the opposite hard shoulder.
Motorway to past tipp town and 2+2 to waterford would be capable of handling the traffic.
Sorry off topic.

BloodyBill

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am not too sure about last motorway. With access to the Continent now looking more viable by ferry Rosslare will become an important hub. You will definate see access to it by a Motorway from Waterford or further North M9 within 5+ years. This motorway may link all the back to Cahir to link Limerick and Cork. When unification happens by the middle of this century you will see a surge to build a Motorway linking Londanderry back down to the.middle of the Country, maybe even tow one linking it directly to Galway and the second linking it to Dublin .

'Unification' ?? They've been at that since 1922. That's abit left field for me. I dont see the need for Unification myself.
What I'm saying is that motorways in general will be harder to build and justify as we go on. The Climate stuff will only get more serious. I do understand there appears to be a need to have a few more ports connected up but new Motorways are already being stalled on the continent.

steeler j

BloodyBill wrote: »

'Unification' ?? They've been at that since 1922. That's abit left field for me. I dont see the need for Unification myself.
What I'm saying is that motorways in general will be harder to build and justify as we go on. The Climate stuff will only get more serious. I do understand there appears to be a need to have a few more ports connected up but new Motorways are already being stalled on the continent.

A lot of countries on the continent have invested in big road projects decades before us ,a lot of their motorway system connecting cities and ports are constructed

BloodyBill

steeler j wrote: »

A lot of countries on the continent have invested in big road projects decades before us ,a lot of their motorway system connecting cities and ports are constructed

I agree 100%. We are coming from behind in regards to motorways. That doesn't mean public opinion and rules from Europe won't change prior to us being connected up motorway wise. It could all be stopped.

Leonard Hofstadter

There's going to be a massive revolution in transport in the next 10 years, there will be many more electric cars (which aren't really that green when you measure the conaiderable additional impact in the manufacturing process, but the tailpipe emissions definitely are much better even when considering coal powered electricity), hydrogen power might well be a real thing by then, and we might very well have synthetic fuels for combustion engines which would make a massive difference to the emissions from transport.

With all that in mind, not building motorways will prove to be incredibly short sighted. Once emissions are not a problem then we need higher speed limits (the only logical reason to have a speed limit of 120 is because of the negative impact on CO2 at speeds higher than this), motorways were designed for safe high speed travel, and a mere 75 mph in old money isn't exactly high speed compared to European norms.

Sam Russell

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

There's going to be a massive revolution in transport in the next 10 years, there will be many more electric cars (which aren't really that green when you measure the considerable additional impact in the manufacturing process, but the tailpipe emissions definitely are much better even when considering coal powered electricity), hydrogen power might well be a real thing by then, and we might very well have synthetic fuels for combustion engines which would make a massive difference to the emissions from transport.

With all that in mind, not building motorways will prove to be incredibly short sighted. Once emissions are not a problem then we need higher speed limits (the only logical reason to have a speed limit of 120 is because of the negative impact on CO2 at speeds higher than this), motorways were designed for safe high speed travel, and a mere 75 mph in old money isn't exactly high speed compared to European norms.

Most EU countries have a speed limit for motorways close to our 120 km/hr. France reduce their 130 km/h to 110 km/h in rain or bad weather. Only Germany has a few autobahns with unlimited speed, but those stretches are limited (pardon the pun).

As for electric vehicles, these are more suited to urban areas where the speed limit would tend to be below 60 km/h, and electric range is effected greatly by speed above 100 km/h, so if anything, electric vehicles would keep below 100 km/h.

There is no doubt that electric vehicles will come on stream before the end of this decade, but their impact might be more on public transport than private cars. The problem with charging, and range anxiety might cut their use for long journeys - who would want to set out on a 250 km journey with a full car that has a range of 200 km?

The M20 is needed whatever the future configuration of vehicles will be.

steeler j

BloodyBill wrote: »

I agree 100%. We are coming from behind in regards to motorways. That doesn't mean public opinion and rules from Europe won't change prior to us being connected up motorway wise. It could all be stopped.

I don't think any motorway like the m20 would be stopped or banned when u consider the big urban areas at either end of it , likewise the n24 and n25 full length upgrade wouldn't be an issue ,only issue is time and money

Isambard

Public usage of the road system needs to change. Long distance journeys should be discouraged in tandem with improving rail facilities. The motorway system will still be needed but the era of unrestricted car usage has to end soon.

KrisW1001

Long-distance journeys aren't a significant cause of traffic-related emissions. Medium and short- distance car commuting, and single-occupancy car-commuting is the major contributor. That is where rail can help, although bus rapid transport would do most of the work at lower cost than fixed rail.

In a country as dispersed as ours, there is no viable rail option for long-distance journeys except between the cities.

Pete_Cavan

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

There's going to be a massive revolution in transport in the next 10 years, there will be many more electric cars (which aren't really that green when you measure the conaiderable additional impact in the manufacturing process, but the tailpipe emissions definitely are much better even when considering coal powered electricity), hydrogen power might well be a real thing by then, and we might very well have synthetic fuels for combustion engines which would make a massive difference to the emissions from transport.

With all that in mind, not building motorways will prove to be incredibly short sighted. Once emissions are not a problem then we need higher speed limits (the only logical reason to have a speed limit of 120 is because of the negative impact on CO2 at speeds higher than this), motorways were designed for safe high speed travel, and a mere 75 mph in old money isn't exactly high speed compared to European norms.

Emissions from the cars post-construction are not the only environmental concerns with motorways. The environmental effects of the landtake, materials and emissions from construction are also considerable. More and more of the country seems to be getting some sort of protected designation and environmental legislation is much more difficult to get around now, look at how many projects get challenged on the EIA. With 2+2, the reduced land required, less construction and more adaptable horizontal alignment to avoid areas of concern are much easier to get through. Even if the ICE was somehow changed to take in carbon and emit air, the days of motorway building are numbered, the M20 very likely to be the last.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

the days of motorway building are numbered, the M20 very likely to be the last.

Cork Waterford? Not sure if the whole thing would be M status, but a chunk will probably be.

Isambard

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Cork Waterford? Not sure if the whole thing would be M status, but a chunk will probably be.

maybe a Limerick M7to Nenagh new link to Kilkenny and on to Wexford route, connecting to the M8 and M9 for Cork and Waterford traffic might make a decent network

KrisW1001

I drive between Cork and Waterford regularly, and I disagree.

While I can see an additional section of N25 being built out to Type 1 Dual Carriageway (what most people call "a motorway") for reasons of traffic volumes, I can't see any part of the route being placed under actual motorway regulations.

The only Type 1 DC extension I can see would be to extend the N25 from Midleton to just east of Castlemartyr.

The southern section of the Waterford Bypass is what I'd describe as a "Type 1-and-a-half DC": it has wide lanes and shoulders, but really doesn't meet the geometry requirements to be a motorway, which is why it's under 100km/h limits. The bridge and northern section of the bypass could be re-classified as a motorway, but it would be a pointless vanity exercise to change the signs to blue for less than 5 km of road.

For the rest of the N25 between these two points, a consistent 2+2 alignment that bypassed the remaining handful of towns and villages on the route would be sufficient. Actually, between Kinsalebeg on the Cork/Waterford border and Dungarvan, the existing wide single carriageway is already plenty enough for the traffic it gets.

@Isambard - traffic volumes are nowhere near high enough to justify something like this. N24 already connects Waterford with the M8 (at Cahir) and Limerick, and that road is being upgraded to 2+2.

Pete_Cavan

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Cork Waterford? Not sure if the whole thing would be M status, but a chunk will probably be.

West of Midleton yes but that is mostly online upgrade rather than new build. Between Midleton and Youghal might get motorway but if relief roads are built on that route in the meantime, that changes the dynamic. I can't see much being done east of Youghal; the roads are generally decent, unlikely to be significant traffic growth and the terrain is not good. Providing a good quality N24 would allow journeys between Cork and Waterford to use it and the M8 as an alternative.

cgcsb

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am not too sure about last motorway. With access to the Continent now looking more viable by ferry Rosslare will become an important hub. You will definate see access to it by a Motorway from Waterford or further North M9 within 5+ years. This motorway may link all the back to Cahir to link Limerick and Cork. When unification happens by the middle of this century you will see a surge to build a Motorway linking Londanderry back down to the.middle of the Country, maybe even tow one linking it directly to Galway and the second linking it to Dublin .

By the middle of the century car ownership will have plummeted. New Diesel/Petrol cars are being banned in 2030, if not sooner. The rare elements used to make electric cars will make them too expensive for most and most people will live in cities. every family owning a car will be gone, only the elite will own their own cars. Rest will do without or use carshare apps. Even now it's close to impossible for a working class person to get their license, buy a car and get insured, that cost is only going up.

cgcsb

BloodyBill wrote: »

The new railway line is important. Should be alot faster aswell. Iv a feeling the days of the big new motorway ls are numbered and this will be one of the last.

I would say definitely one of the last

There'll most likely be some Dublin-Derry motorway built for political reasons. That being said once the Slane and Ardee bypasses are done, I'm not sure there is much economic or safety justification for it really.

Aside from that, short port motorways to Rosslare, Ringaskiddy and Foynes will still be built.

After that the future of road building will be at most dual carriageway (the N4, N5 and N24) and majority of new roads will be single carriageways, replacing bad bits of secondary roads (N52 and N80 especcially) and bypassing towns that aren't bypassed already.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

West of Midleton yes but that is mostly online upgrade rather than new build. Between Midleton and Youghal might get motorway but if relief roads are built on that route in the meantime, that changes the dynamic. I can't see much being done east of Youghal; the roads are generally decent, unlikely to be significant traffic growth and the terrain is not good. Providing a good quality N24 would allow journeys between Cork and Waterford to use it and the M8 as an alternative.

Fully agree with all that yep.
I'm thinking of the Cork-Midleton bit primarily. And as you say, it's definitely not "new build".
Edit: I think we're all of the same mindset here, M20 will be one of the last.

Bass Reeves

cgcsb wrote: »

By the middle of the century car ownership will have plummeted. New Diesel/Petrol cars are being banned in 2030, if not sooner. The rare elements used to make electric cars will make them too expensive for most and most people will live in cities. every family owning a car will be gone, only the elite will own their own cars. Rest will do without or use carshare apps. Even now it's close to impossible for a working class person to get their license, buy a car and get insured, that cost is only going up.

There is nothing to indicate any if what you stated is impending

cgcsb

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is nothing to indicate any if what you stated is impending

Yes, there is, you're probably just not prepared to accept it. Here's what's happening:

2030 ban on new petrol/diesel:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48668791

Lithium:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danrunkevicius/2020/12/07/as-tesla-booms-lithium-is-running-out/?sh=16a2877c1a44

Cobalt:
https://www.wired.com/story/a-cobalt-crisis-could-put-the-brakes-on-electric-car-sales/#:~:text=Then%20there's%20the%20harsh%20economics,may%20not%20have%20enough%20supply.&text=The%20research%20suggests%20that%20demand,is%201.6%20times%20today's%20capacity.

An urbanising world:
https://www.iied.org/urbanising-world

Compact growth for Ireland:
https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/09022006-project-ireland-2040/

The number of 21-24 year olds with a license is tumbling and the cost of insurance is growing. You won't be able to insure a 10 year old car in the future, meaning by 2040 everyone will have to buy a new EV or not drive.

Bass Reeves

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes, there is, you're probably just not prepared to accept it. Here's what's happening:

2030 ban on new petrol/diesel:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48668791

Lithium:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danrunkevicius/2020/12/07/as-tesla-booms-lithium-is-running-out/?sh=16a2877c1a44

Cobalt:
https://www.wired.com/story/a-cobalt-crisis-could-put-the-brakes-on-electric-car-sales/#:~:text=Then%20there's%20the%20harsh%20economics,may%20not%20have%20enough%20supply.&text=The%20research%20suggests%20that%20demand,is%201.6%20times%20today's%20capacity.

An urbanising world:
https://www.iied.org/urbanising-world

Compact growth for Ireland:
https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/09022006-project-ireland-2040/

The number of 21-24 year olds with a license is tumbling and the cost of insurance is growing. You won't be able to insure a 10 year old car in the future, meaning by 2040 everyone will have to buy a new EV or not drive.

There is nothing to indicate that you will not be able to insure a 10 year old car. Yes at present in places insurance companies are reluctant to insure some older cars. This is more to do with low value cats being used in staged crashes. An insurance company makes money but insuring cars they cannot make money if they do not insure cars. I know many people who have older cars and have no bother insuring them.

There is an urban/rural dive on licences by younger age groups. It might be reducing in younger adults in urban areas but it is not tumbling. I have three children offhand I cannot think of any of there friends that cannot drive.

Hydrogen looks the long term option for cars or fuel cells.

Isambard

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is nothing to indicate that you will not be able to insure a 10 year old car. Yes at present in places insurance companies are reluctant to insure some older cars. This is more to do with low value cats being used in staged crashes. An insurance company makes money but insuring cars they cannot make money if they do not insure cars. I know many people who have older cars and have no bother insuring them.

There is an urban/rural dive on licences by younger age groups. It might be reducing in younger adults in urban areas but it is not tumbling. I have three children offhand I cannot think of any of there friends that cannot drive.

Hydrogen looks the long term option for cars or fuel cells.

i have 5 kids, youngest 29, only two drive.

Leonard Hofstadter

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes, there is, you're probably just not prepared to accept it. Here's what's happening:

2030 ban on new petrol/diesel:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48668791

Lithium:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danrunkevicius/2020/12/07/as-tesla-booms-lithium-is-running-out/?sh=16a2877c1a44

Cobalt:
https://www.wired.com/story/a-cobalt-crisis-could-put-the-brakes-on-electric-car-sales/#:~:text=Then%20there's%20the%20harsh%20economics,may%20not%20have%20enough%20supply.&text=The%20research%20suggests%20that%20demand,is%201.6%20times%20today's%20capacity.

An urbanising world:
https://www.iied.org/urbanising-world

Compact growth for Ireland:
https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/09022006-project-ireland-2040/

The number of 21-24 year olds with a license is tumbling and the cost of insurance is growing. You won't be able to insure a 10 year old car in the future, meaning by 2040 everyone will have to buy a new EV or not drive.

Ireland has NOT banned the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030 (nor has any EU state as it's contrary to EU law).

As we've discovered thanks to Covid, cramming everyone into a city is not a good idea, and we've also discovered many people no longer need to live in cities to do their jobs, hence why property prices have stagnated in Dublin but seen massive increases outside the capital and especially in rural Ireland. Rural Ireland isn't exactly noted for its top class public transport system so all those residents will need cars.

EVs are predicted to reach price parity with petrol and diesel by the latter half of this decade, the batteries are getting cheaper all the time.

Everything else you say is wishful thinking and conjecture.

The private car, with all the freedoms and convenience it brings, will continue to be the dominant force of transport long into the future.

Sam Russell

Mod: can we keep the discussion the the proposed route for the M20 and its likely go ahead - re budget.

Other off topic stuff should be directed elsewhere. EVs are not relevant, nor are bans on diesel and petrol cars.

Thank you.

KrisW1001

Like it or not, Ireland's uniquely dispersed rural population pattern makes owning a private car the only practical way to live outside a city. That leaves two options: force people to not live in rural areas (good luck with that..), or mitigate the negative environmental effects of private car travel. Oddly enough, I think upgrading N20 is an essential part of those mitigations.

There's very little chance this road is going to be cancelled, unless money runs out again. The rationale for upgrading N20 is safety and capacity. The current road is unsafe, so will need to be replaced with one that is safe. Also, in some parts, the current road is too small to accommodate the traffic that normally uses it.

The only options that fit are a motorway or a type 2 dual carriageway. A single carriageway road is too little for the normal traffic between centres the size of Cork and Limerick, and there's no realistic traffic reduction measures that would make it acceptable.

I think the case for upgrading to a motorway is just about made for M20, even if that's only because it will join M17/M18 on its northern end and form a western spine for long-distance travel.

There are environmental benefits to road improvements - improving the geometry of a road (the angles of incline/decline, the number and tightness of bends), and removing conflicting junctions reduces the amount of energy that a vehicle needs use to drive along them because you reduce the number of times you have to slow down just to speed up again. Those savings are small per journey, but multiply by millions of journeys a year over decades, and they add up (an AADT of just 13,500 is the same as 5 million journeys a year).

cgcsb

<Snip>

Off topic despite warning.

Sam Russell

Mod: Off topic posts will be deleted.

Any further off topic posts will result in cards.

jackrussel

RIP to the 2 people today. It’s actually disgraceful that this motorway hasn’t been build yet.

Hibernicis

Desperately sad to have two families impacted by a crash like today's.

I rarely take that route anymore and like many others usually go via the M8/R513/N24. By coincidence I travelled Limerick to Cork yesterday (for valid reasons) and took the N20 for the first time in months as I was starting from South West of Limerick city. I was overtaken on that very stretch before the Charleville Park by a small souped-up car. I was doing 90+kmh at the time; he was travelling an awful lot faster. It's not the first time I've seen crazy overtaking on the stretches on either side of Charleville. Between those stretches and the carry on that goes on on the Mallow road, I really dread that route. The sooner the motorway/DC gets built the better. ( To be clear I'm not in any way passing comment on the circumstances of today's accident, just highlighting the urgency associated with the N20 upgrade/replacement)