M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

cjpm

What exactly is this Cork Limerick Action Group?



I googled them and couldn't find any sites.... Did yer man just come up with this phantom group and elect himself chairman???

Chris_5339762

Autistic children are in danger of losing therapeutic horse-riding, farms could be badly split becoming unviable, while Bovine TB could dramatically rise — just for the sake of making a journey 16 minutes shorter.

I stopped reading after that. What a load of absolute headline grabbing piffle, designed purely as clickbait. This is DublinLive levels of rubbish, and from the Examiner?

Aontachtoir

Ah, the resistance forms and begins to organise.

As someone who lives about a kilometre from the N28 and watched with despair its long and pointless trawl through the courts, I've been puzzled by the optimism expressed that the M20 will not face similar challenges.

All you need is a small group of dedicated saboteurs to put the brakes on a project literally for years. The M28 was sent to ABP in May 2017, got approval in July 2018, and was dragged through the courts on spurious appeal after spurious appeal until just a few weeks ago. That's nearly 4 years in the planning process. A Supreme Court review would have brought it to about 6 years. As a reminder, the M28 is about 14 km of road. No significant changes have been made to the planning process since then, and as far as I am aware none are imminent.

The idea that the 90 or so km M20 will get through planning in under 4 years seems extremely optimistic to me. Either of those articles has enough objectors to tie this road up for a very long time.

Pete_Cavan

As the route gets more defined and less people are affected by it, there will be less support for these kind of action groups. They can get good support now because the net is cast very wide with multiple route options bringing more people into the fold. Most people when the realise that the selected route won't affect them will go back to not giving a crap about bovine TB and the like.

The M28 resistance was able to attract some wealthy people who were willing to finance their campaign. I doubt the M20 will attract as many such people, it may be a lot longer but doesn't impinge on large urban areas. Most people in the towns of Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville will be delighted to get a bypass. There will also be plenty of landowners along the way delighted with a good payout, although they will never admit that until the money is in their accounts. I'd be more concerned with the general eco warrior rent-a-crowd and the likes of Sweetman than local opposition tbh.

riddlinrussell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

As the route gets more defined and less people are affected by it, there will be less support for these kind of action groups. They can get good support now because the net is cast very wide with multiple route options bringing more people into the fold. Most people when the realise that the selected route won't affect them will go back to not giving a crap about bovine TB and the like.

The M28 resistance was able to attract some wealthy people who were willing to finance their campaign. I doubt the M20 will attract as many such people, it may be a lot longer but doesn't impinge on large urban areas. Most people in the towns of Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville will be delighted to get a bypass. There will also be plenty of landowners along the way delighted with a good payout, although they will never admit that until the money is in their accounts. I'd be more concerned with the general eco warrior rent-a-crowd and the likes of Sweetman than local opposition tbh.

If they actually follow all the rules regarding environmental protection then they have nothing to fear from Sweetman. I've seen articles saying that the Irish government are one of the worst in the world at abiding by their own environmental legislation.

AugustusMinimus

The examiner Facebook page is a great laugh. Seemingly M24 is a no brainier and a 3 Billion cost is outrageous.

That Examiner article is a disgrace. Cost benefit for M24 makes no sense. 100m is being spent on Dunkettle. Do they want to waste this investment be clogging it with traffic again?

steeler j

It's all over social media in Tipperay trying to get support for the m20 by cahir ,I really taught this was put to bed along time ago . The article says to run it by cahir but bypass charleville ,buttervant and the the bad bends if that is the case any traffic going end to end will just continue as it's 42 km shorter so ur just years down the line have to finish all the rest of the road .

Isambard

steeler j wrote: »

It's all over social media in Tipperay trying to get support for the m20 by cahir ,I really taught this was put to bed along time ago . The article says to run it by cahir but bypass charleville ,buttervant and the the bad bends if that is the case any traffic going end to end will just continue as it's 42 km shorter so ur just years down the line have to finish all the rest of the road .

Hard to understand why they don't realise that no one will travel 42 km extra, especially once the bottlenecks on the N20 are bypassed. I suspect they have an agenda to try to leapfrog the "M24" ahead of the M20

Bass Reeves

Isambard wrote: »

Hard to understand why they don't realise that no one will travel 42 km extra, especially once the bottlenecks on the N20 are bypassed. I suspect they have an agenda to try to leapfrog the "M24" ahead of the M20

As well I think 80% of traffic on the M20 originates on the M20. Add to that that traffic from the western side of Limerick would add another 10-20km to the difference and you are looking at lads daydreaming about the M28 having any effect of traffic levels on the M20. The opposite would be a more effective case at present people in South Limerick and Tipp access cork from Mitchelstown when the M20 would very attractive to them if within 20-30km of the M20

CrabRevolution

cjpm wrote: »

What exactly is this Cork Limerick Action Group?

I googled them and couldn't find any sites.... Did yer man just come up with this phantom group and elect himself chairman???

You're allowed call yourself anything you like really. You can also guarantee that any organisation with the innocuous sounding title "X Research/Information Group" is vehemently opposed to X.

One of the best names has to be the "M28 Steering Group", considering their goal is to stop the project entirely.

KrisW1001

There will never be an M24. A road that has Waterford City at one end and Limerick City at the other does not justify a motorway.

Routing Cork-Limerick via M8 and N24 is stupid, and it's the sort of thing that only people who don't use the road will say. It's a 48 km additional detour... on a journey that's only 110 km on the current route (and may even be a little shorter on the motorway) Nobody would take the new routing - certainly not the goods drivers, and the whole point of building M20 is to get lorries out of the small towns along the current route.

.. oh, and that's before we remind ourselves that M8/N24 is a toll road (Fermoy), while M20 is not.

The Examiner is turning this into a pet campaign for some reason. Their interviewers didn't seem to find anyone who is looking forward to the new road, which is strange... lots of people living in and around Charleville, Buttevant, etc should have had a chance to express their views too.

Isambard

yes I'd say the whole of Duhallow would be in favour of the M20 .

cgcsb

An improved Cahir to Limerick Road with dual carriageway from Limerick to Tipp town is likely to happen anyway but very much a separate project. The M9 from Dublin to Waterford is fairly sparse at the southern end as is. A new Lim-Wat interurban motorway is overkill.

Muttley79

cgcsb wrote: »

An improved Cahir to Limerick Road with dual carriageway from Limerick to Tipp town is likely to happen anyway but very much a separate project. The M9 from Dublin to Waterford is fairly sparse at the southern end as is. A new Lim-Wat interurban motorway is overkill.

An extra 30km.works out an extra 10-15 minutes to your journey if the m24 is built that links 3 cities together linking in rosslare port instead of building a complete new motorway costing billions to link 2 cities together!!

Isambard

Muttley79 wrote: »

An extra 30km.works out an extra 10-15 minutes to your journey if the m24 is built that links 3 cities together linking in rosslare port instead of building a complete new motorway costing billions to link 2 cities together!!

as often pointed out, the N20 traffic is mainly from the hinterland into one or other of the cities.
It still needs to be catered for by bypassing or improving the bad bits (ie most of it) and once you've done the improvements, then there would be no reason at all for the end to end traffic to go via Cahir .

KrisW1001

Muttley79 wrote: »

An extra 30km.works out an extra 10-15 minutes to your journey if the m24 is built that links 3 cities together linking in rosslare port instead of building a complete new motorway costing billions to link 2 cities together!!

Even if it's just 30km (it's not), that is still a 30% increase in distance, which is a 30% increase in fuel costs for carrying goods between the two endpoints. You have a very rosy view of the margins in road haulage if you think this would be acceptable for freight operators.


N24 is already being upgraded to a 2+2, so N20/N24 is not an "either-or", but N8/N24 is just not a viable route to Limerick from Cork, regardless of the quality of road you put on it.

Muttley79

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Even if it's just 30km (it's not), that is still a 30% increase in distance, which is a 30% increase in fuel costs for carrying goods between the two endpoints. You have a very rosy view of the margins in road haulage if you think this would be acceptable for freight operators.


N24 is already being upgraded to a 2+2, so N20/N24 is not an "either-or", but N8/N24 is just not a viable route to Limerick from Cork, regardless of the quality of road you put on it.

Will you stop playing parish pump politics here.an extra 10 minute drive is not the end of the world.rosslare port and waterford city has a big part to play.they can link the four cities outside of dublin together via ports and motorways which would bring in more investment into this country instead of your attitude of wanting a motorway outside your front door.the m20 proposal runs parallel with cork to mitchelstown anyway

KELTICKNIGHTT

Muttley79 wrote: »

Will you stop playing parish pump politics here.an extra 10 minute drive is not the end of the world.rosslare port and waterford city has a big part to play.they can link the four cities outside of dublin together via ports and motorways which would bring in more investment into this country instead of your attitude of wanting a motorway outside your front door.the m20 proposal runs parallel with cork to mitchelstown anyway

Total bull
I use the n20 every week . Going with M24 is the most stupid idea I every heard.
The upgrade to make n20 to n20 is needed full stop.
Why the hell would traffic go up the m8 by so called M24 is brainless idea.
No goods traffic will use it. They continue to use n20. So M20 motorway needed.

Isambard

Muttley79 wrote: »

Will you stop playing parish pump politics here.an extra 10 minute drive is not the end of the world.rosslare port and waterford city has a big part to play.they can link the four cities outside of dublin together via ports and motorways which would bring in more investment into this country instead of your attitude of wanting a motorway outside your front door.the m20 proposal runs parallel with cork to mitchelstown anyway

10 minutes to cover an extra 42 km would equal an average speed of 252 km/h

Bass Reeves

Muttley79 wrote: »

Will you stop playing parish pump politics here.an extra 10 minute drive is not the end of the world.rosslare port and waterford city has a big part to play.they can link the four cities outside of dublin together via ports and motorways which would bring in more investment into this country instead of your attitude of wanting a motorway outside your front door.the m20 proposal runs parallel with cork to mitchelstown anyway

What part of over 80% of the traffic that used the N20 originated on the N20. You will only take a fraction of the 20% that dose not to use the M28. To even join above Mallow to Mitchelstown at this point would entail a 30-35m link road. Both roads are moving away from each other.

Reputable Rog

Muttley79 wrote: »

Will you stop playing parish pump politics here.an extra 10 minute drive is not the end of the world.rosslare port and waterford city has a big part to play.they can link the four cities outside of dublin together via ports and motorways which would bring in more investment into this country instead of your attitude of wanting a motorway outside your front door.the m20 proposal runs parallel with cork to mitchelstown anyway

What does your proposal do for Mallow which suffers from huge amounts of Mid Cork and East Kerry traffic trying to get to Dublin.
If the M20 was built it is likely to will stay on the M20 and join the M7 in Limerick.

mikeym

https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/growing-opposition-to-m20-between-limerick-and-cork/?fbclid=IwAR2w8RQuyVEuCq9PIDrXXKzP7Em5SEvXPilyfjhO54hREC3d7xZAoIIUZSA

Upgrading the N24 is a bloody ridiculous option and only suits the Nimby Brigade.

Even Google Maps doesnt highlight the N24 as an alternative route between Limerick & Cork.

Covidhaveago

Muttley79 wrote: »

Will you stop playing parish pump politics here.an extra 10 minute drive is not the end of the world.rosslare port and waterford city has a big part to play.they can link the four cities outside of dublin together via ports and motorways which would bring in more investment into this country instead of your attitude of wanting a motorway outside your front door.the m20 proposal runs parallel with cork to mitchelstown anyway

I like how you decry 'parish pump politics' when it's clear that you want your parishs project (the N24) to be prioritised/favoured over the M20.

alanucc

cjpm wrote: »

What exactly is this Cork Limerick Action Group?

I googled them and couldn't find any sites.... Did yer man just come up with this phantom group and elect himself chairman???

You always see groups like this forming around infrastructure projects nowadays. Not doubting the bona fides of any particular group, but it is a smart tactic to ensure easy access to the judicial review process to challenge the planning permission at a later stage if required.

Individuals attempting to take a judicial review challenge must demonstrate to the judge that they have "grounds" and "sufficient interest" in the decision of the planning authority before a challenge can be taken.

There are special provisions for "a body or organization ... the aims or objectives of which relate to the promotion of environmental protection". The organization must also have been in existence for at least 12 months at the time of the application for judicial review. Such groups do not have to demonstrate "sufficient interest" in the decision, so it's much easier to get a judicial review.

The above provision was introduced into the Planning Act around 2012 as an implementation of the Aarhus convention. Prior to that point, there were no provisions for such groups in the Act, so they were just not as common as they are now.

JohnC.

I’m someone who would actually benefit from their proposed M24, and may never even use a proposed M20, but I’m unconvinced by having 24 instead of 20. There’s already a dualling plan for N24 which seems fine.

ongarboy

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Total bull
I use the n20 every week . Going with M24 is the most stupid idea I every heard.
The upgrade to make n20 to n20 is needed full stop.
Why the hell would traffic go up the m8 by so called M24 is brainless idea.
No goods traffic will use it. They continue to use n20. So M20 motorway needed.

Ok but you're using a bad road with dangerous bends and many poor overtaking opportunities every week. If you had a continuous motorway from Cork to Cahir and then onwards to Limerick where you could cruise at 120kph uninterrupted for the entire journey, how much worse would it be journey time or travel experience wise? Would goods trucks still get between the two cities faster using the dangerous old N20 than using this alternative continuous motorway proposal?

I'm all for the more direct M20 proposal too but how much worse or longer would the journey be with this alternative proposal? If 100s of millions of taxpayers money can be saved by just adding some (please quantify how much) additional journey time, it's surely worth
putting on the table for consideration at least? Just saying it's brainless or stupid without quantifying exactly why doesn't help explain.

hans aus dtschl

This is page 472 of this thread.
I see we've moved on from "why not route it via Dublin/Belfast/Killarney/Fermoy/Galway"

I'm not throwing any stones: I also was that genius at about page 200 of this thread.

hans aus dtschl

ongarboy wrote: »

Ok but you're using a bad road with dangerous bends and many poor overtaking opportunities every week. If you had a continuous motorway from Cork to Cahir and then onwards to Limerick where you could cruise at 120kph uninterrupted for the entire journey, how much worse would it be journey time or travel experience wise? Would goods trucks still get between the two cities faster using the dangerous old N20 than using this alternative continuous motorway proposal?

I'm all for the more direct M20 proposal too but how much worse or longer would the journey be with this alternative proposal? If 100s of millions of taxpayers money can be saved by just adding some (please quantify how much) additional journey time, it's surely worth
putting on the table for consideration at least? Just saying it's brainless or stupid without quantifying exactly why doesn't help explain.

In short, 80% of the vehicles on the N20 come from areas directly on the N20 corridor. A very small amount of traffic is end to end. If you upgrade ANY OTHER ROUTE than the N20, you will still need to upgrade the N20.

Any alternative proposal is worse by virtue of the fact that it does not address the primary issue: most vehicles on the N20 corridor are originating on the N20 corridor.

Bass Reeves

ongarboy wrote: »

Ok but you're using a bad road with dangerous bends and many poor overtaking opportunities every week. If you had a continuous motorway from Cork to Cahir and then onwards to Limerick where you could cruise at 120kph uninterrupted for the entire journey, how much worse would it be journey time or travel experience wise? Would goods trucks still get between the two cities faster using the dangerous old N20 than using this alternative continuous motorway proposal?

I'm all for the more direct M20 proposal too but how much worse or longer would the journey be with this alternative proposal? If 100s of millions of taxpayers money can be saved by just adding some (please quantify how much) additional journey time, it's surely worth
putting on the table for consideration at least? Just saying it's brainless or stupid without quantifying exactly why doesn't help explain.

What part of over 80% do you not understand. People that use the road are not going end to f@@king end. Over 80% do not. They originate on the N20 and go to Limerick or Cork.

Less than 20% of the traffic is end to f@@king end. That is where the bullsh!t about the M24 options fails. If I am from Patrickwell, Croom, Charlesville, Buttervant, Mallow Blarney or a myriad of other places off the M20 a road via Tipperary, Cahir and Fermoy is no F@@king use.

I sorry for a explaining it in plain English but there are some people looking at a map and not understanding that the M24 will take less than 10% of traffic off the N20 and in the 10years longer it takes to build it over a hundred people will die and many more will be crippled by that F@@king road.

marno21

MOD:

My PMs are open when someone can provide tangible proof that there is an actual plan to link Cork and Limerick via Cahir. This does not include ill thought out idealistic Green Party "policy", or agenda driven NIMBY ideas from the local press. This rule has been in place since February 2020 as per post 5990. Nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned however I am open to discussion via PM.

The Cahir routing was dismissed by the project team as unviable at that stage following a comprehensive traffic journey analysis. I see no evidence that anything has changed since then.

After 177 pages on this thread this kind of stuff has been done to death. Every single point on this issue has been debated at length.

Those in favour of a dual carriageway along the N24 can discuss its merits in the N24 thread which reflects the plan to build such a road. To link Waterford and Limerick. Not Cork.