M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I actually think there’s also a mood in Limerick that they don’t want this road to go ahead. Yes, the Limerick Chamber of Commerce do but there’s a significant minority who think Cork will swallow Limerick when such a link opens. This is no doubt government thoughts on the subject hence the stalling.

I've only ever heard of this opinion here on boards. I've never actually met anyone who thinks it. The vast majority of people in Limerick want this road built.

boardsuser1

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The vast majority of people in Limerick want this road built.

Except Michael Noonan.

jgbyr

I think the main hold up is because it's not going through Stepaside :-)

AugustusMinimus

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I've only ever heard of this opinion here on boards. I've never actually met anyone who thinks it. The vast majority of people in Limerick want this road built.

There’s motorways and dual carriageways going in all directions out of Limerick except in one.

While I know it’s part of EU requirements, even Foynes road is getting upgraded before the M20. Something Is rotten in the Dept of Transport.

Vanquished

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I've only ever heard of this opinion here on boards. I've never actually met anyone who thinks it. The vast majority of people in Limerick want this road built.

I've never heard such a statement in Limerick either. Only in Cork. Seems like somebody heard it in a pub one night and people have been swallowing it ever since.

pigtown

Lads I get that in theory this will be a positive thing but I'd like to know just how positive it will be for the city. There're always headlines in the news about 'x' number of jobs if changes are made to tax rates, or the knock on effect of new factories etc. Surely it's possible to make a fairly accurate estimate of how many extra jobs will be created in Limerick specifically?

And with regards to the possibility of Cork swallowing Limerick, it's not exactly a new concept. The motorway from Dublin to Waterford didn't exactly do wonders for Waterford's economy. While the cities are too close in size for Cork to swallow Limerick it's entirely possible that it will do damage to the city's economy.

marno21

pigtown wrote: »

Lads I get that in theory this will be a positive thing but I'd like to know just how positive it will be for the city. There're always headlines in the news about 'x' number of jobs if changes are made to tax rates, or the knock on effect of new factories etc. Surely it's possible to make a fairly accurate estimate of how many extra jobs will be created in Limerick specifically?

And with regards to the possibility of Cork swallowing Limerick, it's not exactly a new concept. The motorway from Dublin to Waterford didn't exactly do wonders for Waterford's economy. While the cities are too close in size for Cork to swallow Limerick it's entirely possible that it will do damage to the city's economy.

It will do damage to certain elements but it will do massive wonders for other elements. That's the nature of development

The M20 will hurt the business of undertakers along the route for instance, but that has massive positive benefits

Water John

The key is a Cork/Lim/Gal good network providing a counter balance to Dublin. It would actually benefit, all four.

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

The key is a Cork/Lim/Gal good network providing a counter balance to Dublin. It would actually benefit, all four.

I would think Limerick would benefit greatly from the M20 as it is closer to Dublin than Cork and could form the centre of the Cork/Limerick/Galway axis. From a distribution point of view, it could be a great advantage to be based near Limerick as Shannon is not far, and a motorway link to Galway, Dublin, and Cork. It would make an ideal location for many businesses.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think Limerick would benefit greatly from the M20 as it is closer to Dublin than Cork and could form the centre of the Cork/Limerick/Galway axis. From a distribution point of view, it could be a great advantage to be based near Limerick as Shannon is not far, and a motorway link to Galway, Dublin, and Cork. It would make an ideal location for many businesses.

Thank you for pointing this out. (I have a fair idea you are not from Cork or Limerick)

90% of people will agree with you and embrace the scheme. Unfortunately like all other schemes it's the 10% of empty cans will cause the issue and further delay the scheme, shouting the loudest

The rest of us will suffer

FredFunk

marno21 wrote: »

It will do damage to certain elements but it will do massive wonders for other elements. That's the nature of development

The M20 will hurt the business of undertakers along the route for instance, but that has massive positive benefits

More Cork people attending Thomond Park

Cookiemunster

Leo says that the original M20 route will be followed.

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/293637/leo-varadkar-pledges-m20-limerick-cork-motorway-will-run-along-original-route.html#.Wmr0GJO7IFI.twitter

boardsuser1

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Leo says that the original M20 route will be followed.

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/293637/leo-varadkar-pledges-m20-limerick-cork-motorway-will-run-along-original-route.html#.Wmr0GJO7IFI.twitter

Fcuking paywalls :mad:

pajoguy

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/293637/leo-varadkar-pledges-m20-limerick-cork-motorway-will-run-along-original-route.html

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Thank you for pointing this out. (I have a fair idea you are not from Cork or Limerick)

90% of people will agree with you and embrace the scheme. Unfortunately like all other schemes it's the 10% of empty cans will cause the issue and further delay the scheme, shouting the loudest

The rest of us will suffer

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Limerick will benefit from the M20 (N20 upgrade to motorway) significantly as it will allow greater connectivity. There is no logical reason for Limerick to fear it. It increases the reach of Shannon Airport and should increase the attractiveness of Limerick as a centre for industry.

By the way, I am very familiar with Limerick - Cork not so much.

Cookiemunster

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Fcuking paywalls :mad:

It's not exactly a paywall. You can read for free if you unblock them from your ad blocker.

boardsuser1

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's not exactly a paywall. You can read for free if you unblock them from your ad blocker.

Sorted,thank you

Mc Love

FredFunk wrote: »

More Cork people attending Thomond Park

Or Musgrave Park - i'd certainly go down, havent been for a few years simply because of the traffic

Frostybrew

I think Brexit really has the Government and Civil Service of this country spooked, and have noticed a change in their rhetoric in relation to transport policy; particularly in the last month or so. Before Brexit , anything transport related that didn't connect with Dublin, was put on the long finger. The M20 issue was avoided, LRT in Cork was buried.

Now you have the Varadker suggesting we need to get the M20 up and running as fast as possible, and Ross suggesting that LRT is on the cards in Cork. The Limerick Leader article also mentions having "three rail Connected cities". Is this a slip of the tongue? Is Varadker aware of a plan to connect the three cites by rail in an up coming announcement?

Personally I think the Government and civil service of this country has been caught out badly with it's "eggs in one basket" approach of centralising everything in Dublin in relation to transport and planning matters. It's now scrambling to improve connectivity with our continental facing ports with Brexit approaching. This bodes very well for the M20 but also for other projects such as the M40 North Ring Road, the M28, and probably the M25 and M22 also.

cgcsb

Frostybrew wrote: »

I think Brexit really has the Government and Civil Service of this country spooked, and have noticed a change in their rhetoric in relation to transport policy; particularly in the last month or so. Before Brexit , anything transport related that didn't connect with Dublin, was put on the long finger. The M20 issue was avoided, LRT in Cork was buried.

Now you have the Varadker suggesting we need to get the M20 up and running as fast as possible, and Ross suggesting that LRT is on the cards in Cork. The Limerick Leader article also mentions having "three rail Connected cities". Is this a slip of the tongue? Is Varadker aware of a plan to connect the three cites by rail in an up coming announcement?

Personally I think the Government and civil service of this country has been caught out badly with it's "eggs in one basket" approach of centralising everything in Dublin in relation to transport and planning matters. It's now scrambling to improve connectivity with our continental facing ports with Brexit approaching. This bodes very well for the M20 but also for other projects such as the M40 North Ring Road, the M28, and probably the M25 and M22 also.

Just to be clear transport in the Dublin region remains heavily underfunded. There are currently no major transport projects under construction. There are a lot more high cost projects going on around the country than there are in Dublin. The Tuam Motorway cost more than the sum of capital spent on transport in the Dublin region over the same period, despite the Dublin region containing 20 times the population of Galway.

Frostybrew

cgcsb wrote: »

Just to be clear transport in the Dublin region remains heavily underfunded. There are currently no major transport projects under construction. There are a lot more high cost projects going on around the country than there are in Dublin. The Tuam Motorway cost more than the sum of capital spent on transport in the Dublin region over the same period, despite the Dublin region containing 20 times the population of Galway.

Public transport yes. But with road transport all roads lead to Dublin port, and on to the UK.

I agree that Dublin needs massive investment in public transport. If anything there has been over investment in roads in the Dublin area. It's chronic traffic problems are a result of poor planning in housing, transport, and land use; both on a local and national level.

Zoney

I hope you are wrong FrostyBrew as being spooked in that way would mean an assumption that UK will customs union and traffic to/from rest of EU would have to go through cork or Rosslare to France/Spain to avoid paperwork and unpredictable delays.

The downside is even with M28, M20, upgraded ports, we will incur more delays and cost doing business with the rest of Europe than the shorter route via UK distance wise and close trade with UK.

Good news for Shannon I think having M20, especially as ironically Brexit may mean we do even more business with the US, more FDI here than UK and Shannon continuing to build up more USA routes than Cork, especially if the South can more easily get there. Hopefully in Midwest and West it will be easier to get to Europe via Cork now. Dublin is a pain to have to go through for even those shorter flights and M7/M50 traffic/unpredictability is making that transport link less reliable for business. Extra half hour or hour to get there can mean hotel stay the night before/after and extra travel time and costs (have to assume more time out of office = real consequences for productivity).

AugustusMinimus

Never realised how much more important both Cork and Waterford ports will be especially if the UK exits the customs union.

Might accelerate the M28.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Limerick will benefit from the M20 (N20 upgrade to motorway) significantly as it will allow greater connectivity. There is no logical reason for Limerick to fear it. It increases the reach of Shannon Airport and should increase the attractiveness of Limerick as a centre for industry.

By the way, I am very familiar with Limerick - Cork not so much.

I am in total agreement with this. The issue being certain vested interest who complain that it will directly affect their business, whilst benefitting the rest of Limerick as a whole.

cgcsb wrote: »

Just to be clear transport in the Dublin region remains heavily underfunded. There are currently no major transport projects under construction. There are a lot more high cost projects going on around the country than there are in Dublin. The Tuam Motorway cost more than the sum of capital spent on transport in the Dublin region over the same period, despite the Dublin region containing 20 times the population of Galway.

That is very true - hopefully Metro can get started in 2021 as programmed.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Never realised how much more important both Cork and Waterford ports will be especially if the UK exists the customs union.

Might accelerate the M28.

This is very true - no plans for the N25 between Cork and Waterford though. M28 is as said and the N24 looks to be going ahead in some way from Limerick Junction to Waterford.

Frostybrew

Zoney wrote: »

I hope you are wrong FrostyBrew as being spooked in that way would mean an assumption that UK will customs union and traffic to/from rest of EU would have to go through cork or Rosslare to France/Spain to avoid paperwork and unpredictable delays.

The downside is even with M28, M20, upgraded ports, we will incur more delays and cost doing business with the rest of Europe than the shorter route via UK distance wise and close trade with UK.

Good news for Shannon I think having M20, especially as ironically Brexit may mean we do even more business with the US, more FDI here than UK and Shannon continuing to build up more USA routes than Cork, especially if the South can more easily get there. Hopefully in Midwest and West it will be easier to get to Europe via Cork now. Dublin is a pain to have to go through for even those shorter flights and M7/M50 traffic/unpredictability is making that transport link less reliable for business. Extra half hour or hour to get there can mean hotel stay the night before/after and extra travel time and costs (have to assume more time out of office = real consequences for productivity).

I think Brexit will have a beneficial effect on Dublin if it leads to traffic and investment relocating to other parts of the country; and allowing the city to expand at a more sustainable rate and solve it's infrastructural deficits, public transport in particular. This would lead to a higher quality of life for many Dubliners.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Never realised how much more important both Cork and Waterford ports will be especially if the UK exists the customs union.

Might accelerate the M28.

Cork and Waterford look like being the big winners. Rosslare may also do well but may loose some UK traffic with increased continental traffic. Waterford will probably see more LoLo with Cork having an increase in both LoLo and RoRo. Cork has already quadrupled it's number of weekly ferry sailings this year with the new service to Santander and extra sailing on the Roscoff route.

Another plus would be the likelihood of attracting more deep sea container services to Ireland and less reliance on feeder ships, leading to lower costs for all.

The development of the NRR M40 east will also probably be accelerated as it will be necessary to link up the newly built M20 with the M28 to avoid chaos.

markodaly

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think Limerick would benefit greatly from the M20 as it is closer to Dublin than Cork and could form the centre of the Cork/Limerick/Galway axis. From a distribution point of view, it could be a great advantage to be based near Limerick as Shannon is not far, and a motorway link to Galway, Dublin, and Cork. It would make an ideal location for many businesses.

I think the Limerick would actually be the biggest benefactor here. It would of course benefit everyone on that route as well as Cork. Another winner would be Shannon airport. When the M20 is built you could make it from Cork in about an hour. Imagine one of the Middle East airlines operating from SNN? Why go to Dublin airport when you can go to SNN and use that instead?

Mc Love

markodaly wrote: »

I think the Limerick would actually be the biggest benefactor here. It would of course benefit everyone on that route as well as Cork. Another winner would be Shannon airport. When the M20 is built you could make it from Cork in about an hour. Imagine one of the Middle East airlines operating from SNN? Why go to Dublin airport when you can go to SNN and use that instead?

Shannon would need a bit of development in order to accommodate some of their bigger jets. But there'd definitely be a market there.

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is about the M20. Off topic posts deleted.

pigtown

I had another read of the document commissioned by Limerick and Cork Chambers to argue for the road: https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/m20-executive-summary-june-2017.pdf

It makes the legitimate claims about road safety and the lives and money which would be saved but it also makes other claims about job creation and economic stimulus. However it's largely based on surveys that were carried out on existing businesses in the south west region. They don't really analyse best practice in the planning industry.

The report makes the argument that a motorway would allow Limerick and Cork to function as twin-cities and stresses that the potential workforce for industries based in those cities as well as in Kerry would increase. The issue I have with this approach is the lack of any type of analysis on what the cities themselves offer to potential inhabitants. A journey time of 80 minutes (a time-saving of 16 minutes) from city to city isn't going to be attractive for many people. I'm not going to buy a house in Castletroy so that I can make a 2h40min round trip to Mahon everyday.

A much more important consideration for when people choose a city to live in is the attractions and facilities it has to offer; schools, public transport, shops, theatres etc. This is backed up by the ESRI who released a report this week entitled 'PROSPECTS FOR IRISH REGIONS AND COUNTIES' https://www.esri.ie/pubs/RS70.pdf . This is a very thorough analysis of the country's economy and other statistics. It claims that
'infrastructure development should be in the cities rather than between them. The latter facilitates sprawl and thus leads to reduced densities.'

The Chamber document predicts a possible 5,000 jobs should the road go ahead. These jobs are predicated on 6 possible development sites along the corridor. These sites are not identified but it's perfectly clear that they would be car dominated which again isn't in line with modern planning thought. Limerick's Opera site is to support 3000 jobs for much less money, as is a new office development in Cork; Navigation Square.

Should this road get the go ahead then it is inevitable that most new investment by the private sector will aim to take advantage of it, meaning the Cork and Limerick urban areas will begin to stretch north and south respectively. This goes against the development strategies for both cities. Cork has for many years now attempted to grow the Midleton rail corridor to provide the density required to operate sustainable public transport. It also aims to massively grow the city's commercial core eastwards in the docklands, again focused on the train station. In Limerick there is a big push to build the northern ring road and grow the under developed northern suburbs, along with the Limerick 2030 plan which hopes for a much more populated city centre. This road doesn't match the development plans of either city.

Estimates vary but a sum of approximately €900,000,000 will be spent on this road without an especially large return. Why is nobody calling for a rethink? Can you imagine what a difference it would make if we instead spent €300,000,000 on road improvements on the N20, €400,000,000 on the widely called for Cork Luas, and €200,000,000 on a state of the art BRT network in Limerick? That sort of spending would be absolutely trans-formative for those cities and could really change the future growth of the country.

I should state that personally I would love a decent road between Limerick and Cork, I commute to UCC which means a 6.40 start in the mornings so a decent connection would make my life a lot simpler.

Aontachtoir

Pigtown, you make excellent points, especially the fact that Irish planning has been lazily allowing horizontal sprawl in recent decades. This is a trend that must be reversed going forward. However, this does not take away from the necessity of building the M20. While horizontal sprawl can be controlled through stronger planning laws, the state cannot legislate away bad roads, fatal collisions, and the inevitable loss of productivity and trade which arise from low-quality infrastructure. For that reason alone, the M20 must be built.

Separately, building the M20 will not affect the development strategies of either cities. Cork can easily continue to expand the N25 corridor, and it looks as though the upgrade of the remainder of the N25 to Midleton will be in the Capital Plan. At the very least, it's been reactivated by TII. If the North Ring Road as far as the M8 is bundled into the M20, the N25 corridor will suddenly become even more attractive for businesses due to its easy access to both the M8 and the M20. Limerick's push to grow its north is not negatively affected in any material way by the M20, and, in fact, is likely to be accelerated by the increase in commerce which flows inevitably from better inter-urban connection.

Finally, while you note that nobody is going to buy a house in Castletroy to commute to Mahon, I don't really think is what the councils are saying. A high-quality motorway linking Cork to Limerick would allow Limerick to tap into the labour pool of north County Cork and even Cork's northern suburbs. Similarly, it would allow Cork access to workers most of the way to Croom. An 80 km, 40-minute commute on a motorway isn't the worst - it used to take me nearly 30 minutes to drive the 10 km home from Wilton when I worked there. And on a motorway, you wouldn't have to worry about getting caught behind a tractor just as you enter the Ballybeg bends, or having to wait for an endless stream of cows to cross the road outside of Charleville.

The M20 is a badly-needed piece of infrastructure. Better public transport in Cork and Limerick is also sorely required, but first things must come first. The M20 must be built ASAP for the benefit of Cork and Limerick, all of Munster, and Ireland as a whole.