Biblical passages that cause real difficulties to most thinking Christians

Asiaprod

Four-Too, thanks for taking time to answer. I am beginning to understand where you are coming from. As you may know I am a Buddhist and I do have a fair grasp of Hindu and Brahman traditions. As JImiTime stated, no one is expressing issues with what you believe. The issue is in you defining yourself as a Christian. This is what is causing the confusion, and could cause problems. The philosophy you expound is the Hindu Tradition. From the christian perspective, this puts you at odds with Christianity in 9 specific areas. I am going to list them so all on the thread can see the differences and hopefully get a better picture of where you are coming from. This way we can have interesting dialogue which I am all for.

1. Hinduism is pantheistic, not theistic. The doctrine that God created the world out of nothing rather than emanating it out of His own substance or merely shaping some pre-existing material is an idea that simply never occurred to anyone but the Jews and those who learned it from them. Everyone else either thought of the gods as part of the world (paganism) or the world as part of God (pantheism). 

2. If God is in everything, God is in both good and evil. But then there is no absolute morality, no divine law, no divine will discriminating good and evil. In Hinduism, morality is practical; its end is to purify the soul from desires so that it can attain mystical consciousness. Again, the Jews are unique in identifying the source of morality with the object of religion. Everyone has two innate senses: the religious sense to worship, and the moral sense of conscience; but only the Jewish God is the focus of both. Only the God of the Bible is absolutely righteous. 

3. Eastern religions come from private mystical experiences; Western religions come from public revelations recorded in a book and summarized in a creed. In the East, human experience validates the Scriptures; in the West, Scripture judges experience. 

4. Eastern religions are esoteric, understandable only from within by the few who share the experience. Western religions are esoteric, public, democratic, open to all. In Hinduism there are many levels of truth: polytheism, sacred cows and reincarnation for the masses; monotheism (or monism) for the mystics, who declare the individual soul one with Brahman (God) and beyond reincarnation (“Brahman is the only reincarnator”). Truth is relative to the level of experience. 

5. Individuality is illusion according to Eastern mysticism. Not that we're not real, but that we are not distinct from God or each other. Christianity tells you to love your neighbors; Hinduism tells you you are your neighbors. The word spoken by God Himself as His own essential name, the word “I,” is the ultimate illusion, not the ultimate reality, according to the East. There Is no separate ego. All is one. 

6. Since individuality is illusion, so is free will. If free will is illusion, so is sin. And if sin is illusion, so is hell. Perhaps the strongest attraction of Eastern religions is in their denial of sin, guilt and hell. 

7. Thus the two essential points of Christianity — sin and salvation — are both missing in the East. If there is no sin, no salvation is needed, only enlightenment. We need not be born again; rather, we must merely wake up to our innate divinity. If I am part of God. I can never really be alienated from God by sin. 

8. Body, matter, history and time itself are not independently real, according to Hinduism. Mystical experience lifts the spirit out of time and the world. In contrast, Judaism and Christianity are essentially news, events in time: creation, providence, prophets, Messiah, incarnation, death and, resurrection, ascension, second coming. Incarnation and New Birth are eternity dramatically entering time. Eastern religions are not dramatic. 

9. The ultimate Hindu ideal is not sanctity but mysticism. Sanctity is fundamentally a matter of the will: willing God's will, loving God and neighbor. Mysticism is fundamentally a matter of intellect, intuition, consciousness. This fits the Eastern picture of God as consciousness — not will, not lawgiver.

Why am I saying all this? I have two reasons.
1. When C.S. Lewis converted from atheism, he shopped around and narrowed his choice down to Hinduism or Christianity. These two were the only ones in his opinion that offered the aspects he sought in a religion; philosophical, sacramental and mysterious. For him, Hinduism offered the philosophical for only the priests or sages, and the sacramental and mysterious for the masses. He chose christianity as he felt only it could offer all three components to the masses. There does appear to be an affinity between Hinduism and Christianity in that the figure head is one supreme God in both cases. However, the fundamental differences are great enough that a christian cannot be a Hindu and a Hindu cannot be a christian. From a philosophical perspective you are both worshiping different gods. A Hindu, being pantheistic, can accept the christian god as being some type of Dasavatara or avatar of Vishnu, and could make a case that says that linage from Vishnu through to the christian god means you are all ultimately worshiping the same god. But for a theistic Christian, this concept cannot be accepted.

2. From a much larger perspective, I am always happy to see different religions holding meaningful, non-antagonistinc dialogue in the spirit of settling or understanding differences. I an an optimist and believe that the real truth to who and what we are, were we came from and are heading, is spread throughout all peoples and the faiths. Religion and the fight for domination of any particular faith has till now been the ultimate source of suffering in this world. I would love to see this stopping. This starts by understanding where each faith is coming from in relation to each other.

Four-Too, this is the reason why I have been asking you to declare what faith you are. If you do not, your posts only serve to cause confusion and we get people thinking you are being unfairly treated, which might be true depending on the perspective in play, but it is also being caused by your failure to just declare where you stand in the christianity forum. This lack of disclosure colors the way your answers are percieved. You owe it to your belief to be more forth-coming.

Jakkass wrote: »

Four-Two, the Bible is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is also the Word of God. However it is not forbidden to eat meat according to Christianity. Unless you are telling me that the Bhagavad Gita is also the Word of God that is?s.

The Bhagavad Gita is the word of God, just not the word of your God.

AtomicHorror

PDN wrote: »

All threads that last longer than 10 posts tend to wander off topic. That's OK so long as they don't all lead to the same off-topic discussion (ie Evolution/Creationism).

Hey we'll get to it, okay? Where's J C? I need his help on this one.

Jannah

--amadeus-- wrote: »

your assertion that it is impossible to live without recourse to sick pay or unempolyment benifits is at best blinkered. I have spent the last 6 years running my own company and as such I have no sick pay and no right to State unempoyment benifit. In fact I'm not even allowed to take out income protection insurance on a personal loan. Every business owner in the country is in the same boat. I personally don't appreciate the insinuation that my attempts at self sufficiency make me long to be a loner. Perhaps you could explain how that works.

He's a loner because he thinks he can get through life by himself- which is impossible, since we all depend on eachother to live. HA, you may not need governmental help now that you are young and self employed, but I assume you intend on living to a ripe old age, yes? I believe that old age pensions don't fall out of the sky? And if you fall on hard times (as many people do, and it's not because they're 'giving into the system' or their 'master' or any of that crap- especially seeing the way unemployment is these days) then unemployment benefit, council housing, the whole lot- it's all necessary to keep our communities ticking over. It's a system, yes, but it sure as hell is a system that works.

Four-Too wrote: »

The purpose of human life is to get back to God, if we spend our life trying to satisfy our desires (a materialist), we fail in our mission and fail to achieve liberation.

Ah yes, the good all generalising and taking extreme examples... I've seen this so many times, it's not even funny any more. There are MANY people who lead happy, successful and enjoyable lives while not 'getting back to God". That doesn't make them a materialist- the vast majority fill their lives with family, friends, and all the REAL things that make life worthwhile

Four-Too wrote: »

The Bible was written by men, so that is probably why meat eating was not condemned.

As opposed to the Vedas, that fell out of the sky, yes? Or perhaps it appeared out of a cow's arse?

JimiTime wrote: »

Again, no-one (except maybe Jannah:)) is expressing any issue with what your beliefs are... Its the fact that you keep referring to yourself as Christian, yet all your philosophies seem to come from a different place. You are right that christianity is about knowing God, and living accordingly. We differ on who God is though. Can't you just come out straight and say what your religion is?

I'm thinking it's something along the line of a Buffet Religion- Hindianity, perhaps?

--amadeus--

Jannah wrote: »

He's a loner because he thinks he can get through life by himself- which is impossible, since we all depend on eachother to live. HA, you may not need governmental help now that you are young and self employed, but I assume you intend on living to a ripe old age, yes? I believe that old age pensions don't fall out of the sky? And if you fall on hard times (as many people do, and it's not because they're 'giving into the system' or their 'master' or any of that crap- especially seeing the way unemployment is these days) then unemployment benefit, council housing, the whole lot- it's all necessary to keep our communities ticking over. It's a system, yes, but it sure as hell is a system that works.

You seem to have - in your haste to rush to judgement (perhaps a re-read of Romans 14:13 "Then let us not be judges of one another any longer: but keep this in mind, that no man is to make it hard for his brother, or give him cause for doubting." may help with that) you seem to have missed my point. As a compnay owner I - and all others like me - have *NO* recourse to state assistance of any kind. No dole. No council house. No sick benifit. I'm comfortable with that, it's a trade off. And I'm not that young (but thanks!) and I have been through hard times, plenty of them. As for teh pension it won't fall from the sky (alas my bank manager isn't Moses) but from the long term pensions and investmenst that I have made. I also work for charities, fundraise and take an active part in my local community. But I'm a loner?

Anyway the main point I'd like to make is that I feel you may be advised to read:

- 1 Timothy 2:1-4, especially the first part
- Ephesians 4:2
- The Good Smaritan parable

Then perhaps come back on here and re-read your last few posts and tell me how they square with the biblical advice.

Four-Too

Okay, I get most of my knowledge of God after I read Bhagavat Gita As It Is, I am originally Catholic, but I guess I'm krishna consciousness now, the book does not contradict Catholicism generally though. This book explores the "science" of God, and to help ordinary people revive their dormant love for God. One might love his family, wife, society, environment or his country, but if one can come to the stage of loving God that is the highest perfection of life, if one comes to this stage he is always thinking of God, Christ, Krishna, or whichever incarnation of God, which is one and the same. Everything is the same on the absolute plane, that is why Christ and Krishna are one and the same, but many find it hard to understand this. Krishna's killing and saving of people when he descended was the same, because God is always on the absolute or transcendental plane, because those he killed were achieved liberation immediately.
Individuality is not an illusion under my faith, we all retain our identity even after liberation into the spiritual world. Sin and Hell are very much accepted in the book, in Srimad-Bhagavatam, very stark descriptions of the hellish planets are given, just dont do anything abominable
Jannah, you bastard, do not say such about the Vedas, the Vedas was written by men, yes, volumes and volumes, but I stress the importance of Bhagavat Gita As It Is more that the Vedas.

Zombienosh

i have a problem with the title... "thinking christians" ? we all know if you're a christian, you're clearly not thinking...not openly anyway.

Asiaprod

Damn, It never rains , but it pours

Jannah wrote: »

As opposed to the Vedas, that fell out of the sky, yes? Or perhaps it appeared out of a cow's arse?

Four-Too wrote: »

Jannah, you bastard, do not say such about the Vedas, the Vedas was written by men, yes, volumes and volumes, but I stress the importance of Bhagavat Gita As It Is more that the Vedas.

AlcoholicA wrote: »

i have a problem with the title... "thinking christians" ? we all know if you're a christian, you're clearly not thinking...not openly anyway.

All three of you are out of order with those comments. I really do not wish to see a continuation of this... if you get my meaning.

Jannah and Four-Too I highly recommend you both chill out, you are both equally at fault in this.

AlcoholicA I expect better from a mod, I don't come to your forum and rain on your parade, don't do it in mine again. You want to make a point here, please find a better way to express yourself. Generalization does not cut it here.

PDN

Asiaprod wrote: »

AlcoholicA I expect better from a mod, I don't come to your forum and rain on your parade, don't do it in mine again. You want to make a point here, please find a better way to express yourself. Generalization does not cut it here.

This makes me want to forget about turning the other cheek.

If AlcoholicA trolls on here again then watch out for some interesting posts in the Final Fantasy forum about nerds who spend all their time playing computer games. Mod wars - now there's a concept!