Biblical passages that cause real difficulties to most thinking Christians

Fanny Cradock · 03-09-2008 3:42am

Four-Too wrote: »

Jannah, but there is one text directly attributed to God, Bhagavad Gita. There is no question about it's authenticity in India anyway. Those were the words spoken by God to men 5,000 years ago. Unfortunately, there have been so many bogus interpretations based purely on mental spectulation that have led people astray. Only one who knows the absolute truth, a very rare soul, can properly interpret the book to the average human.
Yes, I am a Christian btw.
Milk and it's products are very important to humans in general, there is no question of stealing here, if the Lord is providing we should accept.
Jannah, you do not know the history of the human race, the lower classes, yes, were always meat-eaters, but the higher classes in society were vegetarian. The animal like a tiger is meant to eat meat, so he can do so without incurring a sin because that is in his nature. But meat is not meant for civilized human beings. Ther Lord is already providing an abundance or fruit, veg, grains, herbs and dairy products for humans to eat. The present society IS in chaos!! How can you disagree?? If people dont give up their meat eating habit, we will have a policed state, you cant demand peace in the World either while you maintain satanic slaughter houses. Everyone must suffer the karmic reaction of eating meat, if there is a shortage of food, one should eat from a "lower" animal, such as goats, chickens.

I respect your choice not to eat meat. I generally try to eat as little as possible for a number of reasons: health (mine), expense and trying to reduce the damage to the environment caused from meat production would be my primary concerns. But I'm afraid there are a number of erroneous generalisations in your post.

Firstly, there is no outright condemnation against eating meat in the Bible. Indeed, there is far more to suggest that eating meat is fine. Secondly, I'm not quite sure where you get the notion that the 'higher classes in society' (which ones and when exactly?) ate only vegetables. It was probably exactly the opposite. Thirdly, you mention Karma. Now, I have no problem with the Karmic ideal as a concept based purely in a secular sense. That is to say, if you are nice to people they will generally be nice to you. But then again that really isn't Karma after all. However, anything approaching its spiritual sense is completely outside the Christian faith.

Asiaprod · 03-09-2008 8:24am

Four-Too wrote: »

Yes, I am a Christian btw.

Intriguing, yet the basis for most of your argument is an mix of cultures; you refer to Lord Krishna and put forth a mix of Hindu and Brahman ideals in the Bhagavad Gita. I suspect much of this is influenced by the Hare Krishna movement. How are you defining yourself as Christian. To be a Christian one must be a follower of the Christian God.

Mark Hamill · 03-09-2008 11:14am

santing wrote: »

Did you consult the cow?

Yes, it seemed pretty happy about it to me:

:pac:

Do you have any reason to think dairy cows are dissatisfied with giving their milk in exchange for their relatively comfortable lives?

PDN · 03-09-2008 12:20pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Do you have any reason to think dairy cows are dissatisfied with giving their milk in exchange for their relatively comfortable lives?

The same argument used to be advanced for slavery in the Confederate States.

Emancipation for cows, I say! Meat is murder and cheese is slavery!

JimiTime · 03-09-2008 12:41pm

PDN wrote: »

Cheese is slavery!

That'd be great on a T-shirt. maybe with a pic of a cow in chains:D

Mark Hamill · 03-09-2008 1:13pm

PDN wrote: »

The same argument used to be advanced for slavery in the Confederate States.

Except that there was every reason to think that slaves in Confederate states where unhappy with being slaves. They did have a little war becasue of it, and afterwards I don't think there where many slaves complaining about being freed.

JimiTime · 03-09-2008 1:27pm

Emancipating Cows. The milking of cows similar to slavery in a roundabout way (tongue in cheek, for anyone who's not read the previous posts)

This thread has become quite surreal:)

Asiaprod · 03-09-2008 1:43pm

Just leave eggs out of this, I love my breakfast of boiled eggs.
Do we also have to Emancipate goats?

Fanny Cradock · 03-09-2008 2:08pm

Especially goats!

PDN · 03-09-2008 4:07pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Except that there was every reason to think that slaves in Confederate states where unhappy with being slaves. They did have a little war becasue of it, and afterwards I don't think there where many slaves complaining about being freed.

And do you think the cows would complain if they were released?

That would seem to be a moot point - surely what applys in one case should also apply in the udder? Anyway, I don't want to milk the point - so I'm going to dismiss Four-Too's posts as a load of bull.

Mark Hamill · 03-09-2008 4:28pm

PDN wrote: »

And do you think the cows would complain if they were released?

Probably. Dairy cows gain a lot by being taken care of by humans. They are protected from predators and bad weather, taken care of when sick and have planty of land to graze on (which otherwise would be used for crops). If abandonned by humans they would have to fend for themselves, and as semi-domesticated as they are now, they probably wouldn't survive very well.

AtomicHorror · 03-09-2008 4:39pm

PDN wrote: »

And do you think the cows would complain if they were released?

That would seem to be a moot point - surely what applys in one case should also apply in the udder? Anyway, I don't want to milk the point - so I'm going to dismiss Four-Too's posts as a load of bull.

PDN · 03-09-2008 4:43pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

Just leave eggs out of this, I love my breakfast of boiled eggs.
Do we also have to Emancipate goats?

Boiled aborted chicks - and you call yourself a Buddhist?

Asiaprod · 04-09-2008 12:13am

PDN wrote: »

Boiled aborted chicks - and you call yourself a Buddhist?

Ah, now the yoke's on me. Stop poaching my jokes:)

JimiTime · 04-09-2008 12:52am

Oh dear. We've sunk to new lows people. Shame on us all:D

Jannah · 04-09-2008 9:47pm

Four-Too wrote: »

Jannah, but there is one text directly attributed to God, Bhagavad Gita. There is no question about it's authenticity in India anyway...Yes, I am a Christian btw.

And assuming that you are supposedly a Christian, I believe that means that you have just broken a commandment or two on worshiping/putting false Gods before your own. Hinduism has nothing to do with Christianity. Zilch. Then again, the same book forbids women from reading it, so I shouldn't really know about that :rolleyes: Ah yes, and the part about how millions of Indians are untouchables and should be treated absolutely horrendously- oh but it is the COWS that are important, though, yes?

Four-Too wrote: »

Those were the words spoken by God to men 5,000 years ago.

God also talked about selling your daughters, how to deal with your slaves and mass genocide. Not exactly the kind of guy I would be asking for advice from, whether it is from 5,000 or 5 million years old.

Four-Too wrote: »

Jannah, you do not know the history of the human race, the lower classes, yes, were always meat-eaters, but the higher classes in society were vegetarian. The animal like a tiger is meant to eat meat, so he can do so without incurring a sin because that is in his nature. But meat is not meant for civilized human beings. Ther Lord is already providing an abundance or fruit, veg, grains, herbs and dairy products for humans to eat. The present society IS in chaos!! How can you disagree?? If people dont give up their meat eating habit, we will have a policed state, you cant demand peace in the World either while you maintain satanic slaughter houses. Everyone must suffer the karmic reaction of eating meat, if there is a shortage of food, one should eat from a "lower" animal, such as goats, chickens.

It sounds to me as if you're trying to push your own veggie agendas with all this pure crap about it being for the 'lower classes' (which, by the way, I would love evidence of, because as far as I know meat has traditionally been a dish of the upper class). How are we in chaos?? Life's looking pretty damn sweet to me!! And I would HARDLY call a abattoir a 'satanic slaughter house'- thats absolutely ridiculous. The animals are killed humanely because people LIKE EATING MEAT. There is no karmic reaction or else the whole world would be wiped out by now! If you want to choose to be a veggie, fine, but enough of the spewing of absolute nonsense

Fanny Cradock · 05-09-2008 1:31am

Jannah wrote: »

Then again, the same book forbids women from reading it, so I shouldn't really know about that :rolleyes:

I'm unfamiliar with that part.

Four-Too · 05-09-2008 5:25am

All I can say is LOL....you think that Hindu's have a different God to us Christians, or that they are following a different God?? That is nonsense. God is the father of creation full stop, which includes ALL beings on the earth. You are actually a 4th class person, so is 99% of the population of 2008. How do I know you and me are 4th class? the 4th class person is reliant on a master for survival, everyone is reliant on government for payouts, or else they must work for someone to earn money, these people (us) try to work very hard to make as much money as possible to satisfy personal desires - working like hogs, that is another trait of a low class person.
Yes, people kill animals "humanely" just to satisfy their tongues and bellies, i.e. on their own independent whims. So you support this killing...
People are living in a rotten or near-rotten state all over the world - karma. More and more horrific wars will appear - what can be done. There is great suffering, practically everyone is suffering, aren't you suffering?

PDN · 05-09-2008 7:48am

Four-Too wrote: »

All I can say is LOL....you think that Hindu's have a different God to us Christians, or that they are following a different God?? That is nonsense. God is the father of creation full stop, which includes ALL beings on the earth. You are actually a 4th class person, so is 99% of the population of 2008. How do I know you and me are 4th class? the 4th class person is reliant on a master for survival, everyone is reliant on government for payouts, or else they must work for someone to earn money, these people (us) try to work very hard to make as much money as possible to satisfy personal desires - working like hogs, that is another trait of a low class person.
Yes, people kill animals "humanely" just to satisfy their tongues and bellies, i.e. on their own independent whims. So you support this killing...
People are living in a rotten or near-rotten state all over the world - karma. More and more horrific wars will appear - what can be done. There is great suffering, practically everyone is suffering, aren't you suffering?

I feel like I'm suffering when I read confused rambling.

Asiaprod · 05-09-2008 8:02am

PDN wrote: »

I feel like I'm suffering when I read confused rambling.

That makes two of us. I wrote out a nice long reply to stuff that I objected to in Four-Two's posts, but I just can't be bothered feeding the Troll. I would love to know what religion he/she does claim to represent though. Its not Christian, that's for sure.

philologos · 05-09-2008 9:07am

Four-Too wrote: »

All I can say is LOL....you think that Hindu's have a different God to us Christians, or that they are following a different God?? That is nonsense. God is the father of creation full stop, which includes ALL beings on the earth. You are actually a 4th class person, so is 99% of the population of 2008. How do I know you and me are 4th class? the 4th class person is reliant on a master for survival, everyone is reliant on government for payouts, or else they must work for someone to earn money, these people (us) try to work very hard to make as much money as possible to satisfy personal desires - working like hogs, that is another trait of a low class person.
Yes, people kill animals "humanely" just to satisfy their tongues and bellies, i.e. on their own independent whims. So you support this killing...
People are living in a rotten or near-rotten state all over the world - karma. More and more horrific wars will appear - what can be done. There is great suffering, practically everyone is suffering, aren't you suffering?

How come God claims in the book of Leviticus for example, that there are various different types of meats the Israelites could eat? Do you think Jesus fulfilled said passage, because I don't see any passage in the Bible forbidding us to eat meat, although it is clear that the first in humanity were vegetarians when looking at the Genesis 1 passage.

JimiTime · 05-09-2008 10:20am

PDN wrote: »

I feel like I'm suffering when I read confused rambling.

I have heard some similar things from Hare Krishna's I think someone already mentioned that too.

So Four-too, are you a Hare Krishna? You obviously know what you are doing when you keep calling yourself christian, then pushing eastern philosophy. So just be out straight.

Asiaprod · 05-09-2008 11:16am

Four-Too
We request all posters read the Charter before posting in this or any Forum.
Point 2 of the Charter states "In keeping with that purpose, please be honest about your faith where it makes a clear difference to your answer".
I would appreciate you clarifying your faith as it appears to make a great difference to your answers.

Dog Fan · 05-09-2008 9:48pm

Been at work for the week so I've missed all the fun in this thread:D

four-Too, I agree with the others, your views are not reflective of Christianity. Rather than taboos against meat eating, we have instructions on how to prepare meat correctly.

To answer your question about old cows PDN, they don't end up on your table. Generally meat comes from cattle under 3 years of age. (I can imagine this info is really getting at Four-Too!). Having said that I don't know where the bits go.
Also, in Irish abattoirs, cattle are killed very fast. I grew up on a farm and have seen the process. (I'll spare the details)

At this stage i'm well off thread. But hey, 'tis a Friday evening and there's nothing on telly.:P

Oh, and the earlier puns were terrible:rolleyes:

Jannah · 05-09-2008 10:21pm

Four-Too wrote: »

You are actually a 4th class person, so is 99% of the population of 2008. How do I know you and me are 4th class? the 4th class person is reliant on a master for survival, everyone is reliant on government for payouts, or else they must work for someone to earn money, these people (us) try to work very hard to make as much money as possible to satisfy personal desires - working like hogs, that is another trait of a low class person.

So in other words, you strive to be a self-sufficient loner, yes? No matter who you are, you will always be reliant on someone else- but hey- if you think you can do without your 'master' and when you get sick, not have a doctor or any disability or any sick pay entitlements- be my guest! Or if you lose your job and can't afford to live (pfft, you don't need unemployment benefit!! No siree!)
HA! I certainly don't work like a hog- I have a very comfortable existance, in fact. And the PURPOSE of life is to satisfy your desires- what the hell else would you do?! Live a long, miserable life being pissed off and achieving nothing... all while being on your own...??
I really don't know what kind of wacky religion you're drawing all your ideas from, but it certainly isn't Christianity. Perhaps you would be interested in starting your own convoluted cult where nobody quite knows what exactly is happening, only that they must sleep with a cow at the end of our beds and boycott the employment exchange :rolleyes:

Four-Too wrote: »

Yes, people kill animals "humanely" just to satisfy their tongues and bellies, i.e. on their own independent whims. So you support this killing...
People are living in a rotten or near-rotten state all over the world - karma. More and more horrific wars will appear - what can be done. There is great suffering, practically everyone is suffering, aren't you suffering?

Ah, yes, but of course- food would pour from the heavens in Africa if only we stopped eating meat :rolleyes: Yes, I support this killing- and nope, indeed I am not suffering and I highly doubt the fact that people like myself eats meat has any relation whatsoever to the fact that wars occur (political instability, greed of natural resources, religious hatred- ever think of these?) It's incredibly simplistic, and in all fairness, stupid of you to think that 'karma' has anything to do with the matter. Why don't we all just blame the flying spaghetti monster aswell while we're at it? It's not like it would be any less ridiculous than what you are suggesting.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm unfamiliar with that part.

Sadly, it's true. I read it in a book showing how well women in Islam are treated in comparrison to other religions (my friend is a Muslim) and it really stuck with me. But, sadly, it does get worse:
http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.html
Child marriages, bride burning, no right to property, mass wife-burning and widow burning (practiced by Krishna's wives and still continuing today)... one really does wonder what the hell is going through people's minds when they try to condone this sort of crap

And I hope you have a look at that site, Four-Two - ever think for a minute that THESE ridiculous religious rituals and customs have caused suffering?!? Of course not. It wouldn't be far-fetched enough for you.

--amadeus-- · 05-09-2008 11:39pm

This thread is soooo far off topic it's unreal (and I note that PDN missed the post a few pages ago about the contradictions between a nice fee for preaching versus biblical advocations of poverty, but no matter)

1st point: Jannah I personally feel you are way off base, you skirt close to attacking the poster not the post and your assertion that it is impossible to live without recourse to sick pay or unempolyment benifits is at best blinkered. I have spent the last 6 years running my own company and as such I have no sick pay and no right to State unempoyment benifit. In fact I'm not even allowed to take out income protection insurance on a personal loan. Every business owner in the country is in the same boat. I personally don't appreciate the insinuation that my attempts at self sufficiency make me long to be a loner. Perhaps you could explain how that works.

2nd point - I have bitten my lip so far as I don't feel this is the thread to argue about animal rights but since it's rattled on for several pages I'm going to stick my oar in...

Genesis 1:29 - Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

There is a case to be made that in the Garden of Eden man lived a vegitarian life and (as I understand it) the first reference to meat comes after the flood. In other words, after the fall when there is sin in teh world. To my mind there is a distinct argument to be made that you can draw a line from pure vegitarian sin free man to meat eating "fallen" man.

Further I believe that Romans 14 2:3 says "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him"

Now I'm as devout an athiest as you'll meet but my uneducated and heathen mind seems to think that that passage makes the last few pages mocking Four-Too to be distinctly un-christian.

Further reading is here and here

Now I don't really care about the biblical arguments for or against vegitarianism. My own view is that the bible is so long and ambigious that you can argue any point in either direction. I do though believe that animal rights is an ethically watertight argument and I'm happy to have it here if you think it's not OT.

Four-Too · 06-09-2008 6:01am

Asiaprod, You ask me my faith? My faith is full and strong in God, who is a person, and who certainly has his abode, if God made the Earth a home for us then why should God himself not have an abode? My faith is in real religion, which goes beyond the intricises of Catholicism, true religion is loving God 100% and knowing what God is and also our relationship with him.
The purpose of human life is to get back to God, if we spend our life trying to satisfy our desires (a materialist), we fail in our mission and fail to achieve liberation. It is said that a materialist is never satisfied, just like a smoker who wants 1 cigarette after another after another after another. But the senses should be engaged, false suppression is no use, the senses can be automatically be satisfied by serving Christ in your life, no matter what you are doing, try to do something for Christ (and not make communion out of sliced pan bread for people;))
The Bible was written by men, so that is probably why meat eating was not condemned. The men had not perfect knowledge unfortunately, pity Christ didn't write something. The words in the Bible are not those spoken by God himself, and true religion must come from God, as it's said in the Gita: "When there is a decline in religion, and a rise in irreligion, I descend to restore the principals of religion". Knowingly or unknowingly, we are all suffering to a large degree or a small degree, what some gross materialists class as enjoyment is actually suffering. Like I must put on a fan on a hot day because I'm suffering from heat, that is small but still it is suffering.

JimiTime · 06-09-2008 10:16am

Four-Too wrote: »

Asiaprod, You ask me my faith? My faith is full and strong in God, who is a person, and who certainly has his abode, if God made the Earth a home for us then why should God himself not have an abode? My faith is in real religion, which goes beyond the intricises of Catholicism, true religion is loving God 100% and knowing what God is and also our relationship with him.
The purpose of human life is to get back to God, if we spend our life trying to satisfy our desires (a materialist), we fail in our mission and fail to achieve liberation. It is said that a materialist is never satisfied, just like a smoker who wants 1 cigarette after another after another after another. But the senses should be engaged, false suppression is no use, the senses can be automatically be satisfied by serving Christ in your life, no matter what you are doing, try to do something for Christ (and not make communion out of sliced pan bread for people;))
The Bible was written by men, so that is probably why meat eating was not condemned. The men had not perfect knowledge unfortunately, pity Christ didn't write something. The words in the Bible are not those spoken by God himself, and true religion must come from God, as it's said in the Gita: "When there is a decline in religion, and a rise in irreligion, I descend to restore the principals of religion". Knowingly or unknowingly, we are all suffering to a large degree or a small degree, what some gross materialists class as enjoyment is actually suffering. Like I must put on a fan on a hot day because I'm suffering from heat, that is small but still it is suffering.

Again, no-one (except maybe Jannah:)) is expressing any issue with what your beliefs are. Its the fact that you keep referring to yourself as Christian, yet all your philosophies seem to come from a different place. You are right that christianity is about knowing God, and living accordingly. We differ on who God is though. Can't you just come out straight and say what your religion is?

philologos · 06-09-2008 11:32am

Four-Two, the Bible is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is also the Word of God. However it is not forbidden to eat meat according to Christianity. Unless you are telling me that the Bhagavad Gita is also the Word of God that is?

Amadeus, nobody disputes that the first people were vegetarians. However God did make meat permissible for all mankind from Torah onwards.

PDN · 06-09-2008 11:40am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

This thread is soooo far off topic it's unreal (and I note that PDN missed the post a few pages ago about the contradictions between a nice fee for preaching versus biblical advocations of poverty, but no matter)

All threads that last longer than 10 posts tend to wander off topic. That's OK so long as they don't all lead to the same off-topic discussion (ie Evolution/Creationism).

I didn't miss your post, it just seemed pretty irrelevant to the question I was addressing at the time, namely should anyone receive financial reward for activities connected with organised religion.

Your questions about poverty address a much bigger issue, about whether all Christians should be poor. This would apply equally to a Christian construction worker, or a Christian schoolteacher as to a preacher. That would certainly make for an interesting thread if you'd like to start such a thread. If you prefer I can kick it off, but it might not be for a day or two since I'm in Warsaw for the weekend conducting a wedding.

Biblical passages that cause real difficulties to most thinking Christians

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