Biblical passages that cause real difficulties to most thinking Christians

Húrin

I've always hated Ezra 9:20

PDN

Húrin wrote: »

I've always hated Ezra 9:20

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You using that Chinese Whispers Bible the atheists believe in?

Jannah

The part of the bible that I find the most... trying... is right after the 10 Commandments when they talk about how to sell your daughters, manage your slaves and in warfare to kill all women who have slept with men and rape the virgins...

I asked my priest uncle about this part- apparently it falls under the heading of "writing style"

Pffft.

Exodus 34:7
"Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Ahhh, yes, the fact that no child is born without sin. A classic Catholic trait. Catholic justice is really terrible; if your great grandparents sinned, well whoop dee doo, because you're paying the price. Suppose this is the religion where a man had to suffer the concequences of sins he didn't commit... I don't think I'll ever see the logic behind that...

Slavery…

Exodus 21:7-9
Joel 3:8
Timothy 6:1-2
Matthew 10:24
John 13:16
Titus 2:9-10
Ephesians 6:5
Colossians 3:22
Leviticus 25:44-46

And of course, in Luke 12:47 (a parable about the faithful and the unfaithful slaves) Jesus even recommends the beating of slaves. Another gem from Jesus himself is in Matthew 10:24-25. Here Jesus not only reminds slaves that they are never above their master, he actually recommends that they strive to be like him.

Peter, Jesus' favourite disciple, directs slaves to obey and fear their master without question, even though he may be cruel and unjust (1 Peter 2:18)

In Exodus 21:26-27 and Proverbs 29:19 God tells the masters how to punish their slaves.

In Deuteronomy 20:13-14 God tells the Israelites what they should do with the inhabitants of a conquered city, "Whereas the men must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as the spoils of war." Presumably that gives the Israelites the green light to sell them into slavery.

And of course the age old tale of why women are apparently second class citizens Genesis 3:16

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV

And of how a rapist should always marry his victim- oh but of course, that solves everything! The bible sadly doesn’t mention the girl’s right to deny the rapist. According to the Bible, seduction and rape of an unwed girl were crimes against her father, for he would not only lose the anticipated bride-price for his daughter’s virginity but also have the onus of having to marry off “damaged goods.” Bible law is concerned with giving him justice and not the virgin.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
More rape

Exodus 21:7-11
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment”.
Selling of daughters

Deuteronomy 3:6
“And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.”
Kiddie killers. How pleasant… of course, they also go on to talk of how you can rape the virgins of a city after a war as "booty" (and no, that's not quite the ghetto booty, but not too far off either!)


Buuuut, those are just the parts I have issues with...

robindch

Riche670 wrote: »

Something that annoys me about Catholicism is the amount of money involved...

Relatively speaking, the Vatican is run on a shoestring -- I've a vague memory that its annual budget last year came to something like 280 million euro (might be wrong on that), and that's by far the richest part of the CC.

In comparison, the annual value of religious economy in the USA is estimated to be between 60 and 90 billion dollars, and most of `that is due to protestant religious activity.

--amadeus--

PDN wrote: »

Next week I am an invited speaker at a Church Conference in the US. They pay my air fare, hotels, car rental etc. and will pay me a nice fee for speaking at their Conference. I see that as no different from a speaker being invited to a secular Conference to share his/her insights and expertise on politics, science, or any other non-religious subject.

If you pay peanuts then you get monkeys.

"A certain ruler asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'Why doyou call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.' He replied, 'I have kept all these since my youth.' When Jesus heard this, he said to him, 'There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. Jesus looked at him and said, 'How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!'" [Lk. 18:18-23]

"Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." [Acts 4:32-5]

?

Húrin

PDN wrote: »

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You using that Chinese Whispers Bible the atheists believe in?

sorry, toomany zeros. I meant Ezra 9:2

They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness."

What a bunch of self-righteous people.

Dog Fan

robindch wrote: »

Relatively speaking, the Vatican is run on a shoestring -- I've a vague memory that its annual budget last year came to something like 280 million euro (might be wrong on that), and that's by far the richest part of the CC.

In comparison, the annual value of religious economy in the USA is estimated to be between 60 and 90 billion dollars, and most of `that is due to protestant religious activity.

In fact they ran at a deficit last year. See this for more info.

Capital rich, cash poor.

santing

Dog Fan wrote: »

In fact they ran at a deficit last year. See this for more info.

Capital rich, cash poor.

Yes, but that only relates to the Vatican. As each diocee is run financially independent, it is impossible to estimate how much money the RC Church makes.

A 2002 Article in BusinessWeek says:

Joseph Harris, financial officer for the St. Vincent de Paul Society in Seattle and a student of Church finances, estimates that the [USA] nation's nearly 20,000 parishes had revenues of $7.5 billion in 2000. About $6.5 billion went to cover direct expenses, and much of the remaining $1 billion was used to subsidize Catholic schools.

santing

Húrin wrote: »

sorry, toomany zeros. I meant Ezra 9:2

Quote:
They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness."

What a bunch of self-righteous people.

Is it the word "holy" you have problems with? Holy means separated to God, usefull/ready for His service.
As for not marrying outside of Jewish people - that was a command of God with several possible exemptions.

Húrin

santing wrote: »

Is it the word "holy" you have problems with? Holy means separated to God, usefull/ready for His service.
As for not marrying outside of Jewish people - that was a command of God with several possible exemptions.

It's this notion of racial purity.

Four-Too

Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill", yet everyday we support the killing of innocent animals, and people call themselves good Christians while being engaged in gross meat-eating for the satisfaction of the tongue. The slaughterhouses would cease to exist if people gave up meat-eating. If Christ meant thou shalt not kill just other humans, he would have said "thou shalt not MURDER!"

MrPudding

Four-Too wrote: »

Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill", yet everyday we support the killing of innocent animals, and people call themselves good Christians while being engaged in gross meat-eating for the satisfaction of the tongue. The slaughterhouses would cease to exist if people gave up meat-eating. If Christ meant thou shalt not kill just other humans, he would have said "thou shalt not MURDER!"

But meat tastes goooooood. Besides, if god did not want to to eat animals he would not have made them out of meat.

MrP

--amadeus--

I'm a veggie and I normally grab at any anti-meat argument but I think I'll have to pass on that one..!

Anyway, back on topic and an interesting website listing all the (biblical) reasons that jesus is a false messiah here. A good read

anti-venom

Four-Too wrote: »

Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill", yet everyday we support the killing of innocent animals, and people call themselves good Christians while being engaged in gross meat-eating for the satisfaction of the tongue. The slaughterhouses would cease to exist if people gave up meat-eating. If Christ meant thou shalt not kill just other humans, he would have said "thou shalt not MURDER!"

I don't think this argument will put the slightest dent in any Christian's faith or give them pause for thought. God has apparently given humankind dominion over the animal kingdom. You could argue that this biblically mandated 'authority' over other life forms should also imply a responsibility to preserve and maintain.

JimiTime

Four-Too wrote: »

Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill", yet everyday we support the killing of innocent animals, and people call themselves good Christians while being engaged in gross meat-eating for the satisfaction of the tongue. The slaughterhouses would cease to exist if people gave up meat-eating. If Christ meant thou shalt not kill just other humans, he would have said "thou shalt not MURDER!"

Not sure if you are a Christian, or just a veggie saying 'surely God wants us to be veggie'. Anyway, just to clarify, the commandment 'is' thou shalt not MURDER.

Four-Too

Okay, I don't know how to use quotes...but the words of God are most important, not those of any ordinary man, and Christ certainly said "Thou shalt not kill". Therefore, those who are meat-eaters are NOT Christians, clean up your act. "Apparently" is no good mate...then you don't know what God requires you to do and not to do. Your knowledge is defective. If I attack and destroy your house, would you be happy? Is is okay to do that? Same goes for other beings - animals, is it a good society that destroys animals? Why should one intrude on the animals "house" i.e. his body?? The cow is giving milk to our whole population, like a mother of sorts, and then when she gets too old, you cut her throat and kill her. That is why it is the greatest sin to eat the meat of the cow.

JimiTime

Four-Too wrote: »

Okay, I don't know how to use quotes...but the words of God are most important, not those of any ordinary man, and Christ certainly said "Thou shalt not kill". Therefore, those who are meat-eaters are NOT Christians, clean up your act. "Apparently" is no good mate...then you don't know what God requires you to do and not to do. Your knowledge is defective. If I attack and destroy your house, would you be happy? Is is okay to do that? Same goes for other beings - animals, is it a good society that destroys animals? Why should one intrude on the animals "house" i.e. his body?? The cow is giving milk to our whole population, like a mother of sorts, and then when she gets too old, you cut her throat and kill her. That is why it is the greatest sin to eat the meat of the cow.

No, its definately murder. You are obviously passionate about animals, but seriously, there is nothing wrong with eating an animal from a christian perspective. The cutting of the throat you mentioned was actually a command from God on how to slaughter an animal. Spilling out its life blood, as life belongs to God. The passover feast involved lamb, which God commanded and was symbolic of Jesus sacrafice, The Lamb of God. You are very wrong in saying it is not christian to eat meat. Are you just a passionate animal welfare person trying to use christianity, or r u actually a christian?

PDN

Four-Too wrote: »

Why should one intrude on the animals "house" i.e. his body?? The cow is giving milk to our whole population, like a mother of sorts, and then when she gets too old, you cut her throat and kill her. That is why it is the greatest sin to eat the meat of the cow.

So what makes it OK for people to steal the milk of the poor cow? If you want to treat the commandments as referring to animals then it is just as wrong to steal the cow's milk as it is to kill the cow! To be consistent you need to be a vegan, not just a veggie.

BTW, I don't think the meat of an aged dairy cow would make for a very good steak. It might possibly end up in corned beef along with all the genitals, udders & gristle etc. Any posters familiar enough with the meat industry to enlighten us on this?

Riche670

PDN wrote: »

Why can 'filth' not be part of the Word of God? The Bible is not supposed to be "sugar & spice & all things nice" while all the time ignoring the brutish nastiness that characterises so much of humanity's experience and history. The Bible unsparingly details how Lot's family, despite having their undeserving hides rescued from destruction, practiced drunkenness, date-rape and incest. The idea that such honesty cannot possibly be the Word of God because it deals with 'filth' is an example of Mr Fields' irrational and subjective twaddle.

I'm not saying 'filth' cannot be part of the Word of God? My question that stems from Mr.Fields' analysis of this passage is, how can a Christian condemn date-rape and incest when the bible condones it if the circumstances merit such actions. i.e. protecting two "angels".

Apologies if I have totally misinterpreted the passage, but this is how it appears to me.

PDN

Riche670 wrote: »

I'm not saying 'filth' cannot be part of the Word of God? My question that stems from Mr.Fields' analysis of this passage is, how can a Christian condemn date-rape and incest when the bible condones it if the circumstances merit such actions. i.e. protecting two "angels".

Apologies if I have totally misinterpreted the passage, but this is how it appears to me.

The Bible passage concerned does not condone date-rape or incest. Nor are they involved in protecting anyone. The date-rape and incest occur well after the incident with the two angels.

philologos

Four-Too wrote: »

Okay, I don't know how to use quotes...but the words of God are most important, not those of any ordinary man, and Christ certainly said "Thou shalt not kill". Therefore, those who are meat-eaters are NOT Christians, clean up your act. "Apparently" is no good mate...then you don't know what God requires you to do and not to do. Your knowledge is defective. If I attack and destroy your house, would you be happy? Is is okay to do that? Same goes for other beings - animals, is it a good society that destroys animals? Why should one intrude on the animals "house" i.e. his body?? The cow is giving milk to our whole population, like a mother of sorts, and then when she gets too old, you cut her throat and kill her. That is why it is the greatest sin to eat the meat of the cow.

^^ The exact same thing a missionary from the Hare Krishna said to me on Grafton St.

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

So what makes it OK for people to steal the milk of the poor cow? If you want to treat the commandments as referring to animals then it is just as wrong to steal the cow's milk as it is to kill the cow! To be consistent you need to be a vegan, not just a veggie.

Who says its stealing? The cow has to be fed, looked after when sick and housed when its cold. Looks to me like a fair trade.

AtomicHorror

If you take "thou shalt not kill" as meaning literally that, then you're pretty screwed since you'll have to apply that to all that lives. So vegans would be immoral too. I always understood the term to be an imperfect English translation. I tended to assume that the meaning would be closer to "thou shalt not kill people", which would prohibit war and capital punishment as well as murder. I'm guess it is much more specific than that though.

The Mad Hatter

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If you take "thou shalt not kill" as meaning literally that, then you're pretty screwed since you'll have to apply that to all that lives. So vegans would be immoral too. I always understood the term to be an imperfect English translation. I tended to assume that the meaning would be closer to "thou shalt not kill people", which would prohibit war and capital punishment as well as murder. I'm guess it is much more specific than that though.

I don't think I've ever eaten anything I've killed...

Actually, this does put me in mind of hindu musicians (India has a tradition of its own classical music to rival that of the western world), who are simultaneously revered and ostracised by society - the former because they are musicians, and culturally important, the latter because their job involves handling dead animal skins, etc., in a vegetarian community.

JimiTime

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If you take "thou shalt not kill" as meaning literally that, then you're pretty screwed since you'll have to apply that to all that lives. So vegans would be immoral too. I always understood the term to be an imperfect English translation. I tended to assume that the meaning would be closer to "thou shalt not kill people", which would prohibit war and capital punishment as well as murder. I'm guess it is much more specific than that though.

Don't murder, i.e. 'unlawfully' kill another human. that would be the most accurate rendering of the scripture without doubt.

AtomicHorror

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I don't think I've ever eaten anything I've killed...

Potatoes?

santing

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who says its stealing? The cow has to be fed, looked after when sick and housed when its cold. Looks to me like a fair trade.

Did you consult the cow?

Jannah

Four-Too wrote: »

the words of God are most important,

It's a pity that there isn't one text out there that can be attributed directly to God and that has never has any questioning about its authenticity, then, isn't it?

Four-Too wrote: »

animals, is it a good society that destroys animals? Why should one intrude on the animals "house" i.e. his body?? The cow is giving milk to our whole population, like a mother of sorts, and then when she gets too old, you cut her throat and kill her. That is why it is the greatest sin to eat the meat of the cow.

Ugh, "My body is my temple" and all that tripe, huh? Quit being so ridiculous. People have been killing animals to feed themselves for millions of years, it is basic human nature. If we put dogs eating tofu, made lions vegetatian and all humans became vegan then we'd not only be pretty pathetic, but the whole order of life would be in complete chaos. So put the whole notion of us all dancing under a rainbow to rest. PLEASE.

PDN wrote: »

So what makes it OK for people to steal the milk of the poor cow? If you want to treat the commandments as referring to animals then it is just as wrong to steal the cow's milk as it is to kill the cow! To be consistent you need to be a vegan, not just a veggie.

STEAL it's milk??? The cow would be in PAIN if it wasn't milked!!! Why the hell is using its milk productively possibly bad?! How about you explain to the people of Africa to start eating those bananas because they can't go near their livestock- god forbid they would STEAL their milk.... :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

Jannah wrote: »

STEAL it's milk??? The cow would be in PAIN if it wasn't milked!!! Why the hell is using its milk productively possibly bad?! How about you explain to the people of Africa to start eating those bananas because they can't go near their livestock- god forbid they would STEAL their milk.... :rolleyes:

A few tips for a new poster:

1) Read posts carefully - something I'm guilty of not doing.
2) Think about it.
3) Put it in context (a word you'll encounter here from time to time).
4) Bingo! The penny drops.

Four-Too

Jannah, but there is one text directly attributed to God, Bhagavad Gita. There is no question about it's authenticity in India anyway. Those were the words spoken by God to men 5,000 years ago. Unfortunately, there have been so many bogus interpretations based purely on mental spectulation that have led people astray. Only one who knows the absolute truth, a very rare soul, can properly interpret the book to the average human.
Yes, I am a Christian btw.
Milk and it's products are very important to humans in general, there is no question of stealing here, if the Lord is providing we should accept.
Jannah, you do not know the history of the human race, the lower classes, yes, were always meat-eaters, but the higher classes in society were vegetarian. The animal like a tiger is meant to eat meat, so he can do so without incurring a sin because that is in his nature. But meat is not meant for civilized human beings. Ther Lord is already providing an abundance or fruit, veg, grains, herbs and dairy products for humans to eat. The present society IS in chaos!! How can you disagree?? If people dont give up their meat eating habit, we will have a policed state, you cant demand peace in the World either while you maintain satanic slaughter houses. Everyone must suffer the karmic reaction of eating meat, if there is a shortage of food, one should eat from a "lower" animal, such as goats, chickens.