Novena never fails to work

Schuhart

I've read the thread. I'm still a tad confused. Which, I'll admit, I've experienced a couple of times in recent days as there are currently three threads on the go where I find I really don't get it.

I might receive a Kevin Myers level of public denunciation for what follows. But what the hey.

There's a sticky at the top of the page of this forum for prayer requests. There folk, who I'd guess don't know each other in the flesh mostly, request and promise prayers for each other or even for other third parties. Hence, it would seem broadly acceptable to seek and give prayers to others, including complete strangers that you'll never actually meet.

The text in the opening post, for all the flowery language, seems to be essentially asking Mary to pray for the purpose sought. So what is it that makes this essentially wrong, and seeking essentially the same thing from living believers? I think this point has been raised, but I didn't see a clear answer. Presumably, if folk believe in eternal life, then you believe those previous exemplary Christians still exist in some form. What's essentially wrong with asking them the same favour as you ask from living co-religionists? If you should be making your appeals direct to Jesus, should the prayer request sticky not be questionable too?

santing

Schuhart wrote: »

There's a sticky at the top of the page of this forum for prayer requests. There folk, who I'd guess don't know each other in the flesh mostly, request and promise prayers for each other or even for other third parties. Hence, it would seem broadly acceptable to seek and give prayers to others, including complete strangers that you'll never actually meet.

The text in the opening post, for all the flowery language, seems to be essentially asking Mary to pray for the purpose sought. So what is it that makes this essentially wrong, and seeking essentially the same thing from living believers?

Schuhart, there is a difference between the prayer request sticky and the "Novena" of this post.
(1) The request is not to Mary to intercede/pray to God, but to actually perform the the request itself. As such it is clearly labelled as idolatry by the Catechism of the said church. "Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God."
In the sticky note, we can read the request and bring it to our Father who listens to our prayer - there is no request to us to dispense power or healing or whatever to the person in need of prayer.
(2) The request is to Mary, a saint who has long ago been taken to her rest in Heaven. To presume that she can actually listen to the prayers on earth means that she has not entered her rest, but is continually suffering with God's people - a punishment she definitely did not deserve imho. (I am aware I write this as a non RC!)
In the sticky note, we are alive and very well capable/called to carry each others burden.
(3) The request states that if repeated three times it will be granted. Again this is superstition. See the Catechism refernce quoted earlier.
In the sticky note, there is no guarantee that posting your request there will give you what you desire.

EnigmasWhisper

Schuhart wrote: »

I've read the thread. I'm still a tad confused. Which, I'll admit, I've experienced a couple of times in recent days as there are currently three threads on the go where I find I really don't get it.

I might receive a Kevin Myers level of public denunciation for what follows. But what the hey.

There's a sticky at the top of the page of this forum for prayer requests. There folk, who I'd guess don't know each other in the flesh mostly, request and promise prayers for each other or even for other third parties. Hence, it would seem broadly acceptable to seek and give prayers to others, including complete strangers that you'll never actually meet.

The text in the opening post, for all the flowery language, seems to be essentially asking Mary to pray for the purpose sought. So what is it that makes this essentially wrong, and seeking essentially the same thing from living believers? I think this point has been raised, but I didn't see a clear answer. Presumably, if folk believe in eternal life, then you believe those previous exemplary Christians still exist in some form. What's essentially wrong with asking them the same favour as you ask from living co-religionists? If you should be making your appeals direct to Jesus, should the prayer request sticky not be questionable too?

A couple of people here consider that the practise of praying to dead people such as saints and Mary etc for intercession by catholics is 'evil' and akin to spiritualisim.

Schuhart

santing wrote: »

The request is not to Mary to intercede/pray to God, but to actually perform the the request itself.

I’m not sure you are correct in point of fact here. I can accept that the promise by the OP that saying this for three consecutive days works is out of order. But that does not seem to be a part of the text, it’s an assertion by the poster about why someone should recite the text. The key line in the text itself seems to be O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee

Perhaps if I dissect the text, and put in what I see as equivalent phrases that might appear in the prayer request it might help flesh out my puzzlement, as essentially the same request is made in the prayer thread. I won’t link individual requests, but I’d suggest you don’t have to dig too deep to see what I mean.

O most beautiful flower of Mount Carmel, fruitful vine, splendor of Heaven, Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity.

O Star of the Sea, help me and show me here you are my mother.

An equivalent to this is surely something like “Brothers and sisters, I have a problem. I’ve always thought of you as brother and sisters. I’m hoping you can help.”

O Holy, Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in my necessity (make request).

Again, is this not much the same as saying “Brothers and sisters, I’m going through a lot of stuff at the minute (specific problem) Please help by praying that I be given strength to get through it.”

There are none that can withstand your power. O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee (three times).

Holy Mary, I place this cause in your hands (three times).

Again, is this not like saying “Folk, I frankly don't know where I would be without your help in the past. Please give me a dig out again. I really need your help with this, I doubt I can get through it without you.”

The only thing I see in your post that causes a potential issue is your statement that someone who has died should be so parted from the world as to be unable to participate in any way with the ones that are still living. Does this actually have a firm basis? Is there some scriptural quote that says that once you die you are no longer part of the community?

santing

Schuhart wrote: »

The key line in the text itself seems to be O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee
...
There are none that can withstand your power. O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee (three times).

Holy Mary, I place this cause in your hands (three times).

Again, is this not like saying “Folk, I frankly don't know where I would be without your help in the past. Please give me a dig out again. I really need your help with this, I doubt I can get through it without you.”

Your take on the prayer is quite different from mine! The "There are none that can withstand your power." seems to be quite strong leading in the direction of please give me my request.
But I'll accept your explanation. Otherwise I have to go through a poll of my colleagues to ask them which of the explanations they think is true....

Schuhart wrote: »

The only thing I see in your post that causes a potential issue is your statement that someone who has died should be so parted from the world as to be unable to participate in any way with the ones that are still living. Does this actually have a firm basis? Is there some scriptural quote that says that once you die you are no longer part of the community?

The normal description of a deceased believer in the New Testament is that (s)he is asleep. This focuses on the earthly state, the physical body. This is also quite common in the Old Testament where the deceased have left the direct known sphere (earth): "the dead will not praise you" etc.
However, in the New Testament it is emphasized that deceased believers are in an immediate conscious state of happiness with the Lord, not perfect yet, they are waiting to be restored with their bodies on the resurrection of the Saints. Death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.
Another meaning of death in the Bible is the separation from (fellowship with) God. "In the day you eat of it, you will die."

So Death indicates separation. We call death for the believer "sleep" indicating that it is only temporily. However, if we access to them, then they are not "death" and not "asleep"

Php 1:21-24 ESV For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (22) If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. (23) I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. (24) But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

Schuhart

santing wrote: »

The "There are none that can withstand your power." seems to be quite strong leading in the direction of please give me my request.

I understand your objection, and would agree that gives us a suggestion of Mary having personal power. But, while it might seem like a cop-out, I'd feel the core issue is whether someone can in principle ask a dead person for support. If that text simply read 'Mary, you are the mother of Jesus and from what I've read about you in the Bible you seem to be an exemplary Christian, and admirably filled the role of being mother to a person who is obviously terribly important. Would you mind saying a prayer for me?', am I right that you would still feel it a misguided approach?

santing wrote: »

But I'll accept your explanation. Otherwise I have to go through a poll of my colleagues to ask them which of the explanations they think is true....

Apologies on forcing you into a corner.

santing wrote: »

However, in the New Testament it is emphasized that deceased believers are in an immediate conscious state of happiness with the Lord, not perfect yet, they are waiting to be restored with their bodies on the resurrection of the Saints. Death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.
Another meaning of death in the Bible is the separation from (fellowship with) God. "In the day you eat of it, you will die."

But it is fair to say that's not necessarily a prohibition on directing prayer requests to the deceased? I mean, I take it that Catholics would need to point to a reason for having quite so much of it. But there does not seem to be a specific block placed on it.

PDN

Schuhart wrote: »

But it is fair to say that's not necessarily a prohibition on directing prayer requests to the deceased? I mean, I take it that Catholics would need to point to a reason for having quite so much of it. But there does not seem to be a specific block placed on it.

As far as I can see the only references to communication between the living and the dead in Scripture are overwhelmingly negative - equating the practice with witchcraft and idolatry.

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)

Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (1 Chronicles 10:13-14)

When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? (Isaiah 8:19)

Now, admittedly these passages refer more to consulting the dead rather than praying to the dead. However, it should be noted that they stand against a complete absence of any texts in the Old Testament that present communication with the dead in a positive light.

There are, as far as I can see, no texts in the New testament that suggest it is permissable to communicate with the dead. Most non-Catholic Christians would, therefore, see the practice of praying to the dead as being totally devoid of Scriptural justification.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

There are, as far as I can see, no texts in the New testament that suggest it is permissable to communicate with the dead. Most non-Catholic Christians would, therefore, see the practice of praying to the dead as being totally devoid of Scriptural justification.

And thats before we get into the realm of omni-presence, I.E. There is nothing to indicate that the dead can hear all our prayers.

santing

PDN wrote: »

There are, as far as I can see, no texts in the New testament that suggest it is permissable to communicate with the dead. Most non-Catholic Christians would, therefore, see the practice of praying to the dead as being totally devoid of Scriptural justification.

Speaking positively, we do have plenty of calls to pray in the New Testament. The most famous one, alway quoted with this topic is:

1Ti 2:1-8 ESV First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, (2) for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. (3) This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (7) For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (8) I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

One mediator seems to indicate one intersessor.

Joh 14:13-14 ESV Whatever you ask in my name, this I [Jesus] will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Joh 16:26-27 ESV In that day you will ask in my [Jesus'] name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; (27) for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

Heb 4:14-16 ESV Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (15) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (16) Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Eph 2:17-19 ESV And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. (18) For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. (19) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Eph 3:14-21 ESV For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, (15) from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, ...(20) Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

The above are just a few examples of the biblical example and request to boldly come before God's throne and ask God in Jesus Name.

Schuhart

PDN wrote: »

There are, as far as I can see, no texts in the New testament that suggest it is permissable to communicate with the dead. Most non-Catholic Christians would, therefore, see the practice of praying to the dead as being totally devoid of Scriptural justification.

And I can see that would raise a problem if someone was to advocate doing it a lot. But at the same time, despite all that, I don't actually see the evidence for saying this is a terrible sin. So long as the practitioner is clear that they are not calling on the dead folk to do, but merely as support, it would seem to be no more than an eccentricity - like an old person talking to a deceased spouse.

santing

Schuhart wrote: »

And I can see that would raise a problem if someone was to advocate doing it a lot. But at the same time, despite all that, I don't actually see the evidence for saying this is a terrible sin. So long as the practitioner is clear that they are not calling on the dead folk to do, but merely as support, it would seem to be no more than an eccentricity - like an old person talking to a deceased spouse.

Thanks. We conclude that praying to deceased people is at least eccentric. Now why has the majority of Irish people grown up with the idea that it has to be done at least a few times each day?

Schuhart

santing wrote: »

Thanks. We conclude that praying to deceased people is at least eccentric. Now why has the majority of Irish people grown up with the idea that it has to be done at least a few times each day?

That's a fair question, and it does deserve an answer from folk who do it. Studying the life of deceased exemplary Christians could be seen as a source of inspiration. But, indeed, asking them for any kind of support on a regular and organised basis would look to be something that would need some basis for saying they are a legitimate source of help.

Do I take it there is a sound scriptural basis for asking other living Christians to pray for you? Or does also stand a risk of being charged as eccentric?

santing

Schuhart wrote: »

Do I take it there is a sound scriptural basis for asking other living Christians to pray for you? Or does also stand a risk of being charged as eccentric?

Schuhart,
There are plenty of examples of Christians praying for each other in the New Testament. The Apostle Paul asked a few times for prayer, and he says that he was always remembering the many people he had encountered in his prayers.
So praying for each other is definitely not eccentric.

Schuhart

santing wrote: »

There are plenty of examples of Christians praying for each other in the New Testament. The Apostle Paul asked a few times for prayer, and he says that he was always remembering the many people he had encountered in his prayers.

So praying for each other is definitely not eccentric.

And, in fairness, a quick Google confirms exactly what you say.

So, indeed, there would look to be a need to provide some basis for including previous generations in the scope of a request for prayer.

Thanks for sticking with the query - the matter is now much clearer to me.

Wagon

Didn't read the whole thread but the first post is enough. If you want your request to be granted shouldn't you get off your hole and make it happen? For example, I could pray to give up smoking till the cows come home (which is shocking because i don't even have cows) but unless I put the effort in myself it's not going to happen. Prayer is grand, it can make you feel better and take a load of your mind (it's like meditation) but it's not going to get you everything you want. Pretty sure all this has been said before but I'm bored and felt like spouting off some self rightous opinions in the fickleness of religion. Im not an athiest either.

sorella

This is true, but there is a lot of misunderstanding and "sloppy" language' people of the oldr generation were in fact taught to "pray to the saints"...

In a wee chapel in the mountains here, there is a small heap of large print prayer cards "Prayer TO eg St Joseph"

Often we get accosted with this accusation, and we explain carefully that this kind of prayer is not 'compulsory" but optional, and that the same it true of Marian devotion and praying the rosary.

The Catechism is very clear on that.

Personally, my prayer is only to Jesus; I see no need for other and am so in love with My Lord that others never occur to me.

He is all and all and all; Mediator and Advocate.

And many Catholics feel and do the same as we do.

There is sadly a group within Holy Mother Church who seek to have Mary declared Co-Mediatrix. Heaven forbid.

kelly1 wrote: »

PDN, sorry but this is a silly argument used to attack Catholics. Catholics don't pray to saints in the sense that we pray to God. We only ask for intercession in the same way that you ask other people to pray for you. Do you really think Mary is "dead"? Is it not possible that God could give her the power to hear our prayers? Can you see any wrong in asking someone in Heaven to intercede for us?

Trying to make contact with the dead is another matter altogether (Deut 18:11). That not what we do when we ask for intercession.

santing

sorella wrote: »

This is true, but there is a lot of misunderstanding and "sloppy" language' people of the oldr generation were in fact taught to "pray to the saints"...
[snip]
There is sadly a group within Holy Mother Church who seek to have Mary declared Co-Mediatrix. Heaven forbid.

I wonder. Just the other day I got a leaflet through the door: "You shall obtain all you ask of me through the recitation of the ROSARY." The photograph on the cover is not of the Lord Jesus but of a female statute. I wonder what the name of this Goddess is?

Hagar

santing wrote: »

The photograph on the cover is not of the Lord Jesus

I've never actually seen a photograph of the Lord Jesus, what's he like?

djeddy

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

O most beautiful flower of Mount Carmel, fruitful vine, splendor of Heaven, Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity.

O Star of the Sea, help me and show me here you are my mother.

O Holy, Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in my necessity (make request).

There are none that can withstand your power. O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee (three times).

Holy Mary, I place this cause in your hands (three times).

Say this beautiful prayer for three consecutive days and your request will be granted

Beautiful prayer,

I read somewhere where it was said that all graces come to us from god through mary

santing

djeddy wrote: »

Beautiful prayer,

I read somewhere where it was said that all graces come to us from god through mary

Well, beauty is subjective...

but with the following line

djeddy wrote: »

There are none that can withstand your power.
...
Say this beautiful prayer for three consecutive days and your request will be granted

we can definitely say that this is idolatry, and at odd with the words of the Lord Jesus.

Gareth37

Do Protestants and other religeons have the Hail Mary?

Gareth37

PDN wrote: »

I had refrained from comment so far as I had no wish to intrude in an 'in-house' thread among Catholics. However, since you ask, I believe the novena in question is already being used for evil by encouraging people to pray to a dead person instead of to God.

1 Kings 2: 17-21: So he continued, "Please ask King Solomon - he will not refuse you - to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife. "Very well," Bathsheba replied, "I will speak to the king for you." When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

The special status of the Queen Mother remained throughout the time that the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah endured:

Jeremiah 13:18: Say to the king and to the queen mother, "Come down from your thrones for your glorious crowns will fall from your heads." The cities of the Negev will be shut up and there will be no-one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.

santing

Gareth37 wrote: »

1 Kings 2: 17-21.

Interesting reference. We all presume taht Bathseba was alive when she was given that honour.

It does put you of asking anything the King's mother though:

1Ki 2:20 ESV Then she said, "I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you." (21) ESV She said, "Let Abishag the Shunammite be given to Adonijah your brother as his wife."
King Solomon answered his mother, "And why do you ask Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? ... (25) So King Solomon sent Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and he struck him down, and he died.

boringteetotal

Where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary? She was a sinner like the rest of us.

ironingbored

"Novena never fails to work"

It's obviously never been used to pray for world peace then.