Novena never fails to work

EnigmasWhisper

O most beautiful flower of Mount Carmel, fruitful vine, splendor of Heaven, Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity.

O Star of the Sea, help me and show me here you are my mother.

O Holy, Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in my necessity (make request).

There are none that can withstand your power. O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee (three times).

Holy Mary, I place this cause in your hands (three times).

Say this beautiful prayer for three consecutive days and your request will be granted

kelly1

Hello EnigmasWhisper, I'm sure you mean well but this kind of superstition gives Catholicism a bad name. The same goes for the novenas to St. Jude where you have make and distribute copies of the prayer before it will be answered. There's nothing wrong with a novena and it has a biblical foundation but no prayer is guaranteed to work. God isn't bound to answer everything we desire. He won't grant something which is incompatible with His will.

Having said that I like the prayer.

God bless,
Noel.

EnigmasWhisper

Thanks form replying I respect your oppinion and agree with it to a certain extent. This superstition you speak of is prevalent in all organised religions, and I certainly doubt a novena promising devine intervention is going to give catholicisim a bad name . . I suspect Rome, those in power there and indeed modern christianity itself dont need any help giving catholicisim a bad name. For you to say no prayer is guaranteed is impossible unless you understand faith, let alone the psychology and science behind prayer and the unknown power of the mind. I doubt you know what God will or wont answer anymore than I. I do suspect however that a greater percentage of people will find peace and their answers through saying a novena than wondering and guessing what is compatible to Gods will. Glad you like the prayer though, beautiful isnt it.

AtomicHorror

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Thanks form replying I respect your oppinion and agree with it to a certain extent. This superstition you speak of is prevalent in all organised religions, and I certainly doubt a novena promising devine intervention is going to give catholicisim a bad name . . I suspect Rome, those in power there and indeed modern christianity itself dont need any help giving catholicisim a bad name. For you to say no prayer is guaranteed is impossible unless you understand faith, let alone the psychology and science behind prayer and the unknown power of the mind. I doubt you know what God will or wont answer anymore than I. I do suspect however that a greater percentage of people will find peace and their answers through saying a novena than wondering and guessing what is compatible to Gods will. Glad you like the prayer though, beautiful isnt it.

This "novena" you speak of, could it be used for... evil?

I ask purely out of intellectual curiosity.

*With the power of the novena my atheist brethren and I shall control the world!*

PDN

AtomicHorror wrote: »

This "novena" you speak of, could it be used for... evil?

I ask purely out of intellectual curiosity.

*With the power of the novena my atheist brethren and I shall control the world!*

I had refrained from comment so far as I had no wish to intrude in an 'in-house' thread among Catholics. However, since you ask, I believe the novena in question is already being used for evil by encouraging people to pray to a dead person instead of to God.

EnigmasWhisper

Perhaps you should have continued to refrain from commenting then. Also Im not sure where exactly I claimed to be a catholic, or if even I was posting it for my own benefit ? Did my earlier post strike you as being particularly catholic ? Enlighten me as to how praying to a dead person constitutes 'evil' ? Im intrigued.

PDN

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Perhaps you should have continued to refrain from commenting then. Also Im not sure where exactly I claimed to be a catholic, or if even I was posting it for my own benefit ? Did my earlier post strike you as being particularly catholic ? Enlighten me as to how praying to a dead person constitutes 'evil' ? Im intrigued.

Your post certainly came across as Roman Catholic. I don't know many non-Catholics who think it is OK to refer to Mary as 'the Queen of heaven' or who believe that she was conceived without sin.

The Bible consistently portrays spiritualism as evil.

AtomicHorror

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Perhaps you should have continued to refrain from commenting then. Also Im not sure where exactly I claimed to be a catholic, or if even I was posting it for my own benefit ? Did my earlier post strike you as being particularly catholic ? Enlighten me as to how praying to a dead person constitutes 'evil' ? Im intrigued.

I imagine from PDN's perspective as a non-catholic Christian that prayer directly to the dead would constitute a form of idolatry. The notion that the prayer "never fails" and that it could work unconditionally would strike even catholics as distinctly witchcraftly. :pac:

From my perspective the worst you're doing is set credulous people up for disappointment. But I would say that.

EnigmasWhisper

"I suspect Rome, those in power there and indeed modern christianity itself dont need any help giving catholicisim a bad name" Thats screams "Im a roman catholic" at you does it ? . . again, could you please tell me how praying to a dead person is 'evil' Then maybe you could equate how a christian praying equates to spiritualisim ?

EnigmasWhisper

"From my perspective the worst you're doing is set credulous people up for disappointment. But I would say that"

True, but then again someone in the posession of religious faith wouldnt deem dissapointment in the same light as you and I. Indeed if their prayer goes unanswered, they might very well see it as Gods will anyway.

Dave147

The Bible consistently portrays spiritualism as evil.

1. Who wrote the bible? God? Jesus? Apostles? Answer, none of these.
2. Define evil and tie it in with spiritualism.
3. Who wrote the bible..?

Man wrote the bible, don't believe everything you read. Just answer question 2.

EnigmasWhisper

I just want to return to where he proclaimed "I believe the novena in question is already being used for evil by encouraging people to pray to a dead person instead of to God." Id like to see the corrolation between the two, have him define 'evil' to me. I would like to have more of en explanation on how a christian praying is spiritualisim and evil also. In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for those who believe. The faithful are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering peoples prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Sam Kade

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

I just want to return to where he proclaimed "I believe the novena in question is already being used for evil by encouraging people to pray to a dead person instead of to God." Id like to see the corrolation between the two, have him define 'evil' to me. I would like to have more of en explanation on how a christian praying is spiritualisim and evil also. In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for those who believe. The faithful are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering peoples prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Did the novena work for you? I presume you used it as you have to publish it after saying it for so many days which is what you have done.

Gurgle

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Enlighten me as to how praying to a dead person constitutes 'evil' ?

First commandment.

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

I had refrained from comment so far as I had no wish to intrude in an 'in-house' thread among Catholics. However, since you ask, I believe the novena in question is already being used for evil by encouraging people to pray to a dead person instead of to God.

PDN, sorry but this is a silly argument used to attack Catholics. Catholics don't pray to saints in the sense that we pray to God. We only ask for intercession in the same way that you ask other people to pray for you. Do you really think Mary is "dead"? Is it not possible that God could give her the power to hear our prayers? Can you see any wrong in asking someone in Heaven to intercede for us?

Trying to make contact with the dead is another matter altogether (Deut 18:11). That not what we do when we ask for intercession.

EnigmasWhisper

Gurgle wrote: »

First commandment.

You didnt specify which 10 commandments ? Jewish "I am the Lord your God" Luthrean "You shall not make for yourself an idol" Roman catholic "You shall have no other Gods but me". Regardless of which you are referring to, I dont see there anything about "do no pray to a dead person its evil" . . .is there something that I and every schoolchild, scholar and theolgian in the world is missing ?

EnigmasWhisper

kelly1 wrote: »

PDN, sorry but this is a silly argument used to attack Catholics. Catholics don't pray to saints in the sense that we pray to God. We only ask for intercession in the same way that you ask other people to pray for you. Do you really think Mary is "dead"? Is it not possible that God could give her the power to hear our prayers? Can you see any wrong in asking someone in Heaven to intercede for us?

Trying to make contact with the dead is another matter altogether (Deut 18:11). That not what we do when we ask for intercession.

As I fore mentioned, praying to saints is merely seeking intercession. Give PDN a chance to enlighten us as to why praying to a dead person is evil. How praying to saint is spiritualisim and indeed Im intrigued as to know his definition of 'evil'. As for trying to make contact with the dead What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information, one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a child humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me, I’m having real problem right now" Or is that indeed 'evil' also

JimiTime

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

As I fore mentioned, praying to saints is merely seeking intercession. Give PDN a chance to enlighten us as to why praying to a dead person is evil. How praying to saint is spiritualisim and indeed Im intrigued as to know his definition of 'evil'. As for trying to make contact with the dead What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information, one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a child humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me, I’m having real problem right now" Or is that indeed 'evil' also

a) Such things never happen in scripture.
b) Christ actually tells us how to pray and who to pray to
c) Why would you ask the dead to pray for you, when you can pray directly yourself. Don't you trust Jesus?

EnigmasWhisper

JimiTime wrote: »

a) Such things never happen in scripture.
b) Christ actually tells us how to pray and who to pray to
c) Why would you ask the dead to pray for you, when you can pray directly yourself. Don't you trust Jesus?

Really, perhaps you are reading an ARGOS catalogue.The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us (dead people) they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Many catholics seek the intercesion of saints etc, and it has been like that for hundreds of years. To many, saints "intercede with the Father for us." While it can be said that Jesus Christ is the only intercessor, as you know most of the teachings of the catholic church are man made.


You assume I am catholic. Whom I do or not trust is of little or no consequence. I am seeking clarification from another poster as to his definition of 'evil' and how praying to a dead person is 'evil' Everything else I have wrote seeks to explain why catholics and the faithful do as they do. I dont think I ever mentioned my faith, or what I personally believe.

philologos

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

O Holy, Mary Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in my necessity (make request).

I don't understand this bit, and I never have.

1) Surely Mary is the mother of the Son, not of the Father or of the Holy Spirit. Mary was a woman called by God, but I don't feel the need to exhalt Mary above all mankind, she had a role, and she carried it out to give birth to the saviour.

2) Praying to Mary? Why would you need to pray for Mary if we pray in account of Jesus' saving death? Isn't the crucifixion enough to atone for our sins and isn't Christ much more than any human?

3) Also Mary as the Queen of Heaven? Where exactly does the scriptural basis for this come from? I saw an interesting documentary recently (not saying that I agreed with it 100%) that compared the Catholic title of the Queen of Heaven, to the Egyptian goddess Isis who had the same title.

EnigmasWhisper

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't understand this bit, and I never have.

1) Surely Mary is the mother of the Son, not of the Father or of the Holy Spirit. Mary was a woman called by God, but I don't feel the need to exhalt Mary above all mankind, she had a role, and she carried it out to give birth to the saviour.

2) Praying to Mary? Why would you need to pray for Mary if we pray in account of Jesus' saving death? Isn't the crucifixion enough to atone for our sins and isn't Christ much more than any human?

3) Also Mary as the Queen of Heaven? Where exactly does the scriptural basis for this come from? I saw an interesting documentary recently (not saying that I agreed with it 100%) that compared the Catholic title of the Queen of Heaven, to the Egyptian goddess Isis who had the same title.

1, Personally I would have always felt she was more the mother of the son of God. The latin phrase "Mater Dei" (Mother of God) is more common in Latin and so also in most of the other languages used in the Western Catholic Church, latin mass is as we know long gone but most of the prayers arent.

2, Prayer for Mary ? I dont follow. Critics and inquirers alike often question a core tenet of Christian belief that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. First, he is Christ, a title equivalent to the Hebrew term Messiah, meaning "the anointed one." By calling him Christ, early Christians acknowledged that Jesus is greater than any human being and that he is the one sent by God to rescue us. The New Testament also insists that Jesus is in every sense a human being, yet without sin. Whatever the interpertation by you, the church istelf always reverts back to the scriptural 'truth' that Jesus is both fully God and fully human. Why would the crucifiction be enough to atone for our sins, do you believe that the suffering of one man gives you a get out of jail card ?

3, The title Queen of Heaven has been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature. Im not sure why you think that every title and prayer is taken from the scriptures. I dont remember ever saying she was ever referred to in the scriptures as 'queen of heaven' The first mariological definition and basis for the title of Mary Queen of Heaven developed at the Council of Ephesus. The Council guys approved this version against the opinion, that Mary is “only” the mother of Jesus. Nobody had participated in the life of her son more, than Mary, who gave birth to the Son of God. People also compare Jesus, and the three wise men etc to at least 4 other similar historical figures through the ages.

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent and has become a vehicle for people to bash catholics etc. Which to be honest doesnt necessarrily apply to me anyway so so I care less. Im just waiting for the guy to come back and explain why a christian praying for the intercession of saints etc is 'evil' and his definition of what 'evil' is.

philologos

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

1, Personally I would have always felt she was more the mother of the son of God. The latin phrase "Mater Dei" (Mother of God) is more common in Latin and so also in most of the other languages used in the Western Catholic Church, latin mass is as we know long gone but most of the prayers arent.

And the Greek Theotokos = God-bearer. However she had given birth to the Son, not the Spirit or the Father. It's always confused me.

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

2, Prayer for Mary ? I dont follow. Critics and inquirers alike often question a core tenet of Christian belief that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. First, he is Christ, a title equivalent to the Hebrew term Messiah, meaning "the anointed one." By calling him Christ, early Christians acknowledged that Jesus is greater than any human being and that he is the one sent by God to rescue us. The New Testament also insists that Jesus is in every sense a human being, yet without sin. Whatever the interpertation by you, the church istelf always reverts back to the scriptural 'truth' that Jesus is both fully God and fully human. Why would the crucifiction be enough to atone for our sins, do you believe that the suffering of one man gives you a get out of jail card ?

Isn't that the point of the Crucifixion? Jesus died so that we may be free from the slavery of sin, and through Him we may have a new chance to reconcile ourselves to God. Forgiveness is there for all who truly repent by praying to God Himself through Jesus Christ. Mary cannot atone for anyones sins as she is human and was under the original sin of Adam like the rest of mankind. Only Jesus was truly blameless, and this is why He was the all complete and all sufficient sacrifice for our sins. That was my understanding of it.

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

3, The title Queen of Heaven has been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature. Im not sure why you think that every title and prayer is taken from the scriptures. I dont remember ever saying she was ever referred to in the scriptures as 'queen of heaven' The first mariological definition and basis for the title of Mary Queen of Heaven developed at the Council of Ephesus. The Council guys approved this version against the opinion, that Mary is “only” the mother of Jesus. Nobody had participated in the life of her son more, than Mary, who gave birth to the Son of God. People also compare Jesus, and the three wise men etc to at least 4 other similar historical figures through the ages.

EnigmasWhisper, I think every Christian belief should be based on the Scriptural text. Otherwise alarm bells should ring of distortion. This is my personal view, and this is why going back to roots was important for the Church. Traditions of men are by no means equivilent to the inspired Word of God. If I can find a reference that would indicate that Mary was the Queen of Heaven that would support that I would consider it a tenet of the Christian faith.

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent and has become a vehicle for people to bash catholics etc. Which to be honest doesnt necessarrily apply to me anyway so so I care less. Im just waiting for the guy to come back and explain why a christian praying for the intercession of saints etc is 'evil' and his definition of what 'evil' is.

By no means. I seek to ask questions so I could understand it more, and if it was sufficently backed up in the Biblical narrative to seek for it and to apply it for my beliefs given it was backed up. It's not about bashing Catholics, it's about being wary to anything that is contrary to the Scriptures.

As for why the claim may have been said about praying to "saints" is evil. In the Biblical text all Christians are regarded as saints by Paul of Tarsus. Paul greets all his Christian people as saints in his letters. Exhalting humans above the Son of God Jesus Christ for prayer is pointless. Jesus has died for you, not Mary, or Jude, or any of the Apostles. It is through Jesus' blood that you are saved. Do you doubt Jesus' ability to receive your prayers more than you doubt that a ordinary human can receive your prayers?

This is just my view, I don't by any means mean to attack you. These are my beliefs.

JimiTime

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Really, perhaps you are reading an ARGOS catalogue.

Ah yes, i was wondering why god was asking me if i wanted a 42" Plasma TV:rolleyes: Anyway, leaving stupidity behind..........

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Ok, they praise God as well as us, I never said they didn't.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us (dead people) they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Nothing there indicates that anyone prayed to angels, or that angels were interceeding on our behalf. It indicates that the angels prayers were mingled with those of the saints. Also, once again, Jesus tells us, categorically how and who to pray to, so....

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Ok, you seem not be able to let it go, so. Why do you not simply take Christs categoric advice on how to pray? Why do we see nobody in scripture offer their prayers to anyone but God? I suppose you can form your opinion, and believe that Jesus' advice on the matter of how to pray was not enough. Still confused as to why people would pray to an apotle to pass on a message to God, when Jesus says he's approachable directly. Again, why the mistrust?

Many catholics seek the intercesion of saints etc, and it has been like that for hundreds of years. To many, saints "intercede with the Father for us." While it can be said that Jesus Christ is the only intercessor, as you know most of the teachings of the catholic church are man made.

Ok, and are you saying these man made doctrines are a good thing?

You assume I am catholic.

I didn't indicate that in any way. Though I did when you went on about the novena. You since seemed to indicate you are not, so since I posted in this thread I haven't assumed anything. I just took exception to what I see as an error in your views, be you a catholic or not.

how praying to a dead person is 'evil'

Spiritism is ungodly. If one views marian prayer etc as un-christian, then it is spiritism. So its simple to see how one would coclude this practice as evil, as it takes what should be exclusively directed to God elsewhere.

I dont think I ever mentioned my faith, or what I personally believe.

Well you did really. You said this Novena you quoted always worked. This tells us you 'believe' in the God of the bible, and also that you believe that praying to Mary etc is a feesable christian action.

lmtduffy

Yeh god talks to me,

and a few others in the bible and thats it,

wtf?


:pac::pac:

busy?

ha!

Asiaprod

lmtduffy wrote: »

Yeh god talks to me,

and a few others in the bible and thats it,

wtf?


:pac::pac:

busy?

ha!

I believe this is your first posting here. Take this as a friendly warning. Next time you may not be so lucky. Please read the Charter for this forum if you intent to post here again.

EnigmasWhisper

Jakkass wrote: »

And the Greek Theotokos = God-bearer. However she had given birth to the Son, not the Spirit or the Father. It's always confused me.

I guess it depends on what you take literaly or not. I tend to agree with you.


Isn't that the point of the Crucifixion? Jesus died so that we may be free from the slavery of sin, and through Him we may have a new chance to reconcile ourselves to God. Forgiveness is there for all who truly repent by praying to God Himself through Jesus Christ. Mary cannot atone for anyones sins as she is human and was under the original sin of Adam like the rest of mankind. Only Jesus was truly blameless, and this is why He was the all complete and all sufficient sacrifice for our sins. That was my understanding of it.

I agree there also. I was merely pointing out the reasons why catholics pray to dead people.

EnigmasWhisper, I think every Christian belief should be based on the Scriptural text. Otherwise alarm bells should ring of distortion. This is my personal view, and this is why going back to roots was important for the Church. Traditions of men are by no means equivilent to the inspired Word of God. If I can find a reference that would indicate that Mary was the Queen of Heaven that would support that I would consider it a tenet of the Christian faith.

I think every christians belief should be based on the scriptures also but as we both know the catholic church is very loosely based on the scriptures and the alarm bells have been ringing now for rather a long time. There is no reference that I know of that would suggest she is queen of heaven, yet the Council of Ephesus decided she was, I dont like interventions by man anymore than you do.


By no means. I seek to ask questions so I could understand it more, and if it was sufficently backed up in the Biblical narrative to seek for it and to apply it for my beliefs given it was backed up. It's not about bashing Catholics, it's about being wary to anything that is contrary to the Scriptures.

I wasnt referring to you, I enjoy reading what you write and your oppinions inspire me to explore my own faith more. There is a difference between that than another whom rolls out the usual soundbites attacking peoples faith just for the sake of it.

As for why the claim may have been said about praying to "saints" is evil. In the Biblical text all Christians are regarded as saints by Paul of Tarsus. Paul greets all his Christian people as saints in his letters. Exhalting humans above the Son of God Jesus Christ for prayer is pointless. Jesus has died for you, not Mary, or Jude, or any of the Apostles. It is through Jesus' blood that you are saved. Do you doubt Jesus' ability to receive your prayers more than you doubt that a ordinary human can receive your prayers?

Personally I dont no, but I was explaining why catholics do and how it is a relatively modern practise condoned by the catholic church

This is just my view, I don't by any means mean to attack you. These are my beliefs.

My beliefs sway towards yours than you might realise. My views on why catholics do as they do is no way reflective of my own faith. I am still exporing my own faith and enjoy listening, learning and opening myself to new ideas.

EnigmasWhisper

JimiTime wrote: »

Ah yes, i was wondering why god was asking me if i wanted a 42" Plasma TV:rolleyes: Anyway, leaving stupidity behind..........

Electrocity have good deals


Ok, they praise God as well as us, I never said they didn't.


Nothing there indicates that anyone prayed to angels, or that angels were interceeding on our behalf. It indicates that the angels prayers were mingled with those of the saints. Also, once again, Jesus tells us, categorically how and who to pray to, so....

The simple fact is, as this passage shows, the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. I try to exclude my own personal beliefs where possible, and I have great difficulty with many teachings of the catholic church, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans. Of course I agree that Jesus tells us how to pray and to whom, but I can also see how other passages of the scriptures have been open to interpertation and distorted somewhat.

Ok, you seem not be able to let it go, so. Why do you not simply take Christs categoric advice on how to pray? Why do we see nobody in scripture offer their prayers to anyone but God? I suppose you can form your opinion, and believe that Jesus' advice on the matter of how to pray was not enough. Still confused as to why people would pray to an apotle to pass on a message to God, when Jesus says he's approachable directly. Again, why the mistrust?

Seem to be able to let go of what exactly. Again you seem to be asking me personally, I never suggested I didint. I merely put forward reasons as to why many christians and the faithful do pray to others for intercession on their behalf. Of course one should pray directly to Jesus. But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to for christians to ask others to pray for them as well. Ultimately, the "go directly to Jesus" objection can boomerangs back on people. Why should people ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for them when they can ask Jesus directly ? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Ok, and are you saying these man made doctrines are a good thing?

Dont be confused. Not at all, quite the opposite. I prefer to see the scriptures devoid of any intereference by man.

I didn't indicate that in any way. Though I did when you went on about the novena. You since seemed to indicate you are not, so since I posted in this thread I haven't assumed anything. I just took exception to what I see as an error in your views, be you a catholic or not.

Thats odd, because throughout I have always maintained that I was desrcibing the views of some christians and catholics. The pendulum of the mind oscillates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong. I doubt my views (which I have done little to demonstrate) are in anymore error than yours or anybody elses.

Spiritism is ungodly. If one views marian prayer etc as un-christian, then it is spiritism. So its simple to see how one would coclude this practice as evil, as it takes what should be exclusively directed to God elsewhere.

I dont view a prayer offered up to the mother of Christ ungodly. It can be viewd as un-christian by some, but I tend to think it does no harm for christians offering up prayers for the intercession of Mary or saints on their behalf. Its not so simple to see how this practice could be considered as evil, perhaps you would like to define what 'evil' is to you. Is my 70yr old mother commiting an act of explicit evil praying to saint anthony for his intercession everytime she looses her keys ? Is my 6 yr old niece commiting an act of evil when she prays to Holy Mary to ask God to keep mher family safe. What complete and utter nonsense, if you want to go down that road and take everything in both the new and old testament so literaly 'God love you' The Bible explicitly forbids attempted contact with the dead (Deuteronomy 18:11). The Bible states that the dead do not have contact with the living (Luke 16:19-31). A true Christian of course does not seek to contact the dead as such a practice is diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Bible, I think we all know that. A Christian Church obeys what the Bible says when it forbids attempts to contact spirits which claim to be the dead, but which are in reality demons, the enemies of God. I think a little common sense can see the difference here between the two. Between someone trying to make contact with the dead, and a child offering up a prayer to holy mary. Dont be silly.


Well you did really. You said this Novena you quoted always worked. This tells us you 'believe' in the God of the bible, and also that you believe that praying to Mary etc is a feesable christian action.

I didnt even state as to if I was publishing it for myself or another. My beliefs are a tad more complicated, and I tend to usually steer clear of entering into time old discussions about the scriptures and the catholic church, and all the usual soundbites that follow. I have merely explained the beliefs of christians and catholics in particular with comparative ease. As I am neither a devoted practising catholic or defender of the church perhaps you should be exercising your passion on someone else. I believe you might find a group of evil old ladies offering up novenas every evening at 7 o'clock mass in Glasnevin. I suggest you pop in and see true evil at work in one of its most sinister ways.

"A handful of common sense is worth a bushel of learning"

Cant remember who said it

EnigmasWhisper

oops, sorry guys . . keep making a mess of this 'quote' thingy

JimiTime

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

I didnt even state as to if I was publishing it for myself or another. My beliefs are a tad more complicated, and I tend to usually steer clear of entering into time old discussions about the scriptures and the catholic church, and all the usual soundbites that follow. I have merely explained the beliefs of christians and catholics in particular with comparative ease. As I am neither a devoted practising catholic or defender of the church perhaps you should be exercising your passion on someone else. I believe you might find a group of evil old ladies offering up novenas every evening at 7 o'clock mass in Glasnevin. I suggest you pop in and see true evil at work in one of its most sinister ways.

"A handful of common sense is worth a bushel of learning"

Cant remember who said it

Your original post did not look to explain the beliefs of anyone. It stated something. Namely that if you said the Novena you posted for 3 days you'd get what you asked for. If this is not your belief, then ok, but thats what your OP portrayed. The language in your OP was categoric. Your language now is just confusing tbh. You seem to be saying you don't believe your OP, but that others do etc. Maybe you should have been clearer, then this thread would not be so muddled.
And on the definition of Evil. Anything that falls short of Gods standards is an evil. Devoting praise to a being other than God is not good or right, so it is an evil. Its on a par with praise to vishnu or shiva. Any prayer which is directed away from God, is an evil. Is a little old lady 'evil' for doing it? Was Peter the apostle evil? Was Paul Evil? No, but all commited evils in their life. There is a difference between an act being evil, and a person being evil. Sin is evil, and we're all sinners. We can do evil acts for the right reasons, and good acts for the wrong reasons. Rahab lied when hiding the spies, an act of evil. However, her motivation was righteous. Cane offered up some of his best veggies to God, but his heart was in the wrong place. So, an act of evil does not always signify an evil 'intent'. Thats my 2 cent.

EnigmasWhisper

JimiTime wrote: »

Your original post did not look to explain the beliefs of anyone. It stated something. Namely that if you said the Novena you posted for 3 days you'd get what you asked for. If this is not your belief, then ok, but thats what your OP portrayed. The language in your OP was categoric. Your language now is just confusing tbh. You seem to be saying you don't believe your OP, but that others do etc. Maybe you should have been clearer, then this thread would not be so muddled.
And on the definition of Evil. Anything that falls short of Gods standards is an evil. Devoting praise to a being other than God is not good or right, so it is an evil. Its on a par with praise to vishnu or shiva. Any prayer which is directed away from God, is an evil. Is a little old lady 'evil' for doing it? Was Peter the apostle evil? Was Paul Evil? No, but all commited evils in their life. There is a difference between an act being evil, and a person being evil. Sin is evil, and we're all sinners. We can do evil acts for the right reasons, and good acts for the wrong reasons. Rahab lied when hiding the spies, an act of evil. However, her motivation was righteous. Cane offered up some of his best veggies to God, but his heart was in the wrong place. So, an act of evil does not always signify an evil 'intent'. Thats my 2 cent.

I believe I just posted a simple novena (prayer) I dont think I at anytime sought to explain what a prayers is, or indeed enter into any sort of dialogue on any doctorine attatched to it. My language is in no way confusing, if you are confused by it theres nothing I can do. I posted a prayer, others were perturbed by that, I explained why catholics pray, why certain names are atributed to Mary historicaly, and how christians take certain interpertations from the bible to pray to others for intercession. I doubt I can be anymore clearer than posting a simple novena now can I. If I posted PLASMA TV FOR SALE, WORKS BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER IN THE WORLD, NEVER BREAKS would you also attempt to dissect that. Or maybe if I called i a catholic tv. If you are so worried about the evil of good people everywhere offering up prayers to the mother of jesus in the hope of intercession . . . well my friend, Im glad the evil in my world is very different.

santing

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

If you are so worried about the evil of good people everywhere offering up prayers to the mother of jesus in the hope of intercession . . . well my friend, Im glad the evil in my world is very different.

The Roman Catholic Catechism says:

Superstition
2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition

At first glance, your initial post falls into this category. Superstition is evil, isn't it?