Hi Cap v Mid Cap

cherubaul

I've been quite militant on the issue of people being allowed anything they want and have had quite a heated discussion with dex about it some months back (ironically i bought a c-mag off him within 30 minutes of the discussion) so i will attempt to be a bit more restrained in this one.

I'm still all for people being allowed to do waht ever they want with their AEGs. When using my AKS74U i use hi-caps as i am wearing a VDV style loadout which allows you to carry a mere 2 AK mags
When using an armalite i carry mid caps as the mag ones were cheap and easily fill my vest
When using my MG 36 i use a C mag


When i get my AKMSU i will unrepentantly use drum mags with it as drum mags were manufactured for its calibre and have been used in it in real life by Russian soldiers. Similarly when i make a Mak 90 i will also use a drum mag.

On the issue of support guns being heavy and ungainly this not always the case. The RPK is as light as a full metal M16 +long barrel launcher yes but still more advantage than the poor PSG1 gunner who has the same barrel to contend with but not the ROF to back it up nor the advantage of silence that comes with a Gspec or similar , similarly the MG36 is a ludicrisly light gun being made from polymer its manouvreable and no longer than a standard assault rifle hell an M16 is more awkward to lug around.

people have said high caps are the mark of the noob. Try saying that up north and see where that gets you hell try saying that to the regulars who use them and see where it gets you. similarly a 20-30 second burst isn't a noob nor bad gameplay could just as easily be covering and suppressive fire.

in the same vein i still dont see how people can think its fair to have a team with 6 M249s and yet not be ok with a team having several assault rifles with box mags. in a defence situation six guys with saws can effectively lock down a game but this is ok? but yet when 6 guys with drums magged assaults do it its bad form etc etc etc til death do us part.

yes they may be faster than an M249 and m60 but they still have the draw backs of rattle and being somewhat heavier and ungainly compared to a mid cap gun giving the mid cap user the advantage of silence and reaction speed so its a fair trade off. seeing as how this behaviour is the mark of the noob according to some i'm sure when you are of that opinion your intuitive veteran instincts will allow you to vanquish your heavily armed but tactically flawed adversary.

generally support style aegs are a lot more expensive than yer run of the mill aeg. yes even with the advent of the A&K M249 €300 is a prohibitive price for some ergo if someone wants to be a support gunner without the expense what should stop them? certainly not some git whose just had his sensitivities affronted. Similarly what if someone hates the look of the usual support guns and feels they would like something more to their tastes to fill the role

fairness on a site is the responsiblity of the owner / marshall if they feel too many teams are using box mags or are otherwise unbalanced then they should fix it by splitting teams accordingly. TBH theres already a problem with 1 team having numerous M249s etc and other having none without worrying about what is a generally rare occurence.

but back on track yes i like hi-caps
yes i like mids
yes i like the freedom that allows me to do as i please with regards my AEGs role and aesthetics
No i don't like the fact that some believe that I should be restricted with what I should do with an item i payed good money for.
Is this selfish? maybe it is but so is trying to enforce the opposite

hope this was as restrained and non flamable as it was meant to be

senordingdong

Hi caps are bull****.

ED E

Lemming wrote: »

On another point, I am now going to make it my mission to lead a charge at you with my M60 combined iwht some physics-defying-manuever. I reckon those few 'wtf?!!!' moments will give me an edge on you :P

It was madness. 4/5 ATF support guns opening up on the tarp surrounding me, burying me but not hitting me. Must used at least 6 or seven bottles of bbs. I was lying on my back in the muck trying to sight out the door and down the path.

Alan, unknown to me, leaps up and charges. He comes around the corner through the door to see me lying stright in front of him. He managed to jump me and shoot me in the leg(TY) at the same time! Then he landed on his ass beside me It was really funny as that ended the game, what a way to finish.

NakedDex

Rhinocharge wrote: »

Is that an opinion or an order?

It's a widely held and strongly felt opinion and belief.

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

When we are actually doing proper milsim I say midcaps, not reals.

It's a valid point, and most milsim events use midcaps anyway. I use locaps and I want to try out real caps for that bit more realism. I use locaps in regular games too and find it no disadvantage. I only bring 200 rounds into any game and can still make as much or more of a difference to the sway of the game than a person with 5 times my ammo load. I've been curious about realcaps for a while now and the only place they suit is milsim. Now that there is a bit of a milsim following, I reckon it'd be worth trying them out.

cherubaul wrote: »

When using my MG 36 i use a C mag

...

On the issue of support guns being heavy and ungainly this not always the case.

...
a 20-30 second burst isn't a noob nor bad gameplay could just as easily be covering and suppressive fire.

...

in the same vein i still dont see how people can think its fair to have a team with 6 M249s and yet not be ok with a team having several assault rifles with box mags. in a defence situation six guys with saws can effectively lock down a game but this is ok? but yet when 6 guys with drums magged assaults do it its bad form etc etc etc til death do us part.

...

yes they may be faster than an M249 and m60 but they still have the draw backs of rattle and being somewhat heavier and ungainly compared to a mid cap gun giving the mid cap user the advantage of silence and reaction speed so its a fair trade off.

...

generally support style aegs are a lot more expensive than yer run of the mill aeg. yes even with the advent of the A&K M249 €300 is a prohibitive price for some

...

fairness on a site is the responsiblity of the owner / marshall

...

No i don't like the fact that some believe that I should be restricted with what I should do with an item i payed good money for.
Is this selfish? maybe it is but so is trying to enforce the opposite

Ah my old good-natured nemesis! Is it just me or are you feeling nostalgic about the old thread too? I don't think anything either of us posted on that thread could have been counted as anything beyond rational arguing.

Anyway, to the post.

You use an MG36 with a cmag. I do not class that as the same as an M4 with a box mag. That has a real world counterpart. While the MG36 is light and fairly maneuvarable, it's quite long. And the position on the cmag makes the fore hand position a bit of a pain at times (I built one ages back, incidentally the proper MG36 stocks are available on ehobby). So while it may be light, it's still not gainly. The stock doesn't fold with the cmag in so you can't shorten it. There's no way you'd be able to take it inside a building. These are the downfalls of an FSG, downfalls that carbines with superhigh capacity mags dont have.

20-30 second bursts are a bit silly from any gun really. Sure they work, but there's no need for that much fire. 2-3 second bursts with 2-3 second pauses would produce the same effect while firing half the ammo and still keeping an element of realism (note, not milsim, realism) in it. I'd never argue with someone for doing it, I'd just be a bit baffled as to why.

6 M249's on one team is indeed bad form if the opposers didn't have something going for them. However, in a way they would have. All it takes is one bright spark to realise that they can outrun them and out-manoeuvre them. Also, what the opponents would lack in rate of fire, they may make up for in range, and definitely in accuracy. Not to mention that M249's are rather slow to bring-to-bear, so they're a bit pants in buildings. Between those bits of generated info, you could create a plan to take them all down rather quickly.
It's a case of knowing your enemy and their limitations, not just their advantages.

A short, easily wielded, multi role, light and comfortable gun with an emphasis on accuracy is the mantra by which assault rifles, both airsoft and RS, are made. Sticking 3000 rounds under that does give an unfair advantage against the people who are willing to beef it out with the heavier, proper FSG replicas. It also gives a distinct advantage over people who just use mags, of any kind from highs to reals.

Support guns aren't expensive anymore. Sure, €300 might sound like a fair wedge for your M249, but say you decide you want an M4 with a box mag. You're talking minimum €240 straight away. And that's before the extra high capacity batteries you'll need to chew through that box mag of ammo, so you can add another €30 on for that. Then, because you have an M4, you just have to put on some blingin' accessories like a red dot sight and a foregrip. Before long you've reached the magic €300 mark.
Granted, if you have an M4 already you can buy the box mag on it's own for a hundred smackers, but that's one mag. And that's one third the cost of the M249. Which comes with a box mag.

Fairness on site is everyone's responsibility.

Finally, noone's trying to enforce anything. Despite my previous call to ban the likes of M4's with box mags (which I stand by for a dozen reasons which I will happily tell anyone in a thread where it is relevant, or in a pm), it was just that. A call. I'm not the only one who feels like this, as is evident by the lively debate. However, I have no authority to ban them. Nor does anyone who has posted here. The only people who can make that decision are the site owners and they may decide to do it for individual games only (milsim/scenario) or do a blanket ban on them. They may also not bother at all as they may find no issue with it. Whatever they're decision, I would respect it and abide by it, regardless of my own opinions.
With that said too, if a rookie turned up at a skirmish with only a box mag as a magazine, I wouldn't be too bothered. I'd never deny anyone a day in the field for any reason as silly as a personal opinion. I would however try to convert them to the dark side of midcaps!

(Hope you don't mind my editing of your post in the reply, just wanted to highlight the points I was talking about to avoid confusion).

NakedDex

Would it be fair to suggest that we leave this argument actually, at least until a mod might be so kind as to split it into two threads somewhere around where we stopped talking about Hi Cap v Mid Cap and started talking about what is considered an FSG in airsoft?

ED E

Ok, didnt read it all but the bit addressed to me, as long as you dont mind others using mids, no problemo. For doing a SWAT style milsim I think reals would be amazing, make it really challenging. Other than that, they're all yours.

NakedDex

Reals aren't for everyone. In fact, reals are for nutters. However, I've grown so accustomed to 50 round mags that 30 round ones wouldn't be much different for me. When you consider most scenario/milsim games will have ammo restrictions on them up to about 300 rounds (one hicap is the usually measurement as a restriction, just to make things easy on everyone), that means taking 10 real caps. Sounds like a lot, but they're fairly light and it means I'll always know how much ammo I have left. Plus, if the faecal matter hits the rotating airfoil, I can just drop the empty mag and reload while running. If I can't find it later, I've only lost 3 bucks and it'll turn up eventually.

As I said, I use locaps mainly and find them great for me. I use mids a lot too and find them just as good. I just, personally, can't use hicaps.

TheDoc

a few times I've seen that highcaps are been labelled noob?

I understand where pudling started off, but the discussion is getting a bit ridiculous.

Each mag has their own attribute etc.

I personally am using high caps at the moment, and g36c mags are not well suited to my SAAV. However i have ordered some midcaps because i want to experience more realism. But i am going to sacrifice a dumppouch to these mags.

This is a game where the objective is to take your opponent out of the game... and jsut like real life and any other sport/hobby/competitive game... any advantage you can get you should take.

You might think your being all honourable saying " im gna take a midcap because its more realistic and fair" but your being neive because your putting yourself at a disadvantage

I must agree im getting sick of seeing/hearing c and drum mags on m4's etc, its a joke.

But at the end of the day any advantage you can get, should be taken and used.

I remember conversations like this used to pop up in the warcraft 3 community (where i played professionally) and someone would create a strat, that most people complained about and moaned about, its runing our sport etc etc, until...someone found a counter/balance.

There is no right or wrong here and no ones opinion can change that fact, really it cant no matter how hard anyone tries. its personal choice.

Its nearly like me saying ak players are ruining the game , just because i dont use or like aks.

Everyone always will defend what they own and use.

But at the end of this discussion whats gna come down to is, they are both fine to use, theres no right are wrong, i personally dont mind mag rattle, since i usually carry two bottles of bss that rattle anyway, i dont mind winding, cause it takes 1 second. And at the end of it all, i get x3 the amount of ammo as midcaps.

However im going to midcaps, because i like reloading under fire and i want to train myself to have better accuracy.

But saying that high caps are noob, spray and pray etc, is pretty childish and ill informed.

Its about choice, more importantly about the amount of magazines you can hold..

I personally like i said, am getting midcaps, but im gna have to sacrifice a whole dump pouch, and then, im gna get mixed up under fire which ones are full or empty.

high caps are conviniant and no messing.

Puding

This is a game where the objective is to take your opponent out of the game

i think that kinda hit on the corner stone of the problem, it all comes down really to the game style where you play, down in cork very few if any of are games on some days is the game won by simply killing the team, we run objective run games, i've gone complete games running into hour and half two hours with less than a mag fired

know if are game types where different this would more than likely lead to a different type of loadout being adopted,

Stercus Accidit

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Its nearly like me saying ak players are ruining the game , just because i dont use or like aks.

If we had 30 rps, 3000 rd drum mags and heavy trigger fingers maybe we would

TheDoc

even objective type games, you still need to mow dwn enemies to get it done generally..

advantage is everything in every type of game/sport

use it if its there

Puding

advantage is everything in every type of game/sport

well if thats the case i will have double the number of team members please

Stercus Accidit

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

even objective type games, you still need to mow dwn enemies to get it done generally..

advantage is everything in every type of game/sport

use it if its there

Thats the thing, we could all use drums and high rof set ups, but that would be a totally sh1t game.
Alot of people want to experience a little realism in airsoft, not "win" at all costs, including using a glorified hose.

Puding

Thats the thing, we could all use drums and high rof set ups, but that would be a totally sh1t game.
Alot of people want to experience a little realism in airsoft, not "win" at all costs, including using a glorified hose.

have to agree for me and others i play with the game is more important the win, but its each to there own and i myself have said there is no right and wrong and its developing so you can have the game type you want by going to the right site

Lemming

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

even objective type games, you still need to mow dwn enemies to get it done generally..

Disagree with that. I've played in games where I haven't even changed a magazine and still completed the objective. Indeed, both the platoon & section that I was in ran a couple of objectives at Berget without firing at all.

advantage is everything in every type of game/sport

use it if its there

'Advantage' is highly subjective and very much based on interpretation, facts on the ground and what you need to do. Want ub0r-steatlh to do a recce? Less is better. Carrying out base-defense? Load it up. etc.

cherubaul

NakedDex wrote: »

Would it be fair to suggest that we leave this argument actually, at least until a mod might be so kind as to split it into two threads somewhere around where we stopped talking about Hi Cap v Mid Cap and started talking about what is considered an FSG in airsoft?

I agree fully with the above. But don't get used to it this is the only time we're likely to agree on anything regarding this issue ever

TheDoc

The lst few posts are pretty much concrete my belief that this isnt a sport..really and i know that causes sme outrage with some people.

I consider airsoft a hobby for myself.

I personally enjoy the social aspect, competiting and "pretending like im a solider" as im sure many of you will agree.

But what will happen when eventually, a league/tournament comes into effect. And theres say 500 euro cash for the winners, a team of 5.

And at that time, the best gun you can get is say a G&G CQB, with a 15 volt battery and c mag. And without this gun, you arnt going to win. And say this piece of kit, only cost 300 euro in total.

Would you not all agree, that everyone who entered the tournament , would all get this gun.

I dont know if anyone is familiar with other sports etc, but when a fad, strategy, technology comes into an arena, where it gives a massive advantage, one of two things happens..

A)Everyone jumps on the bandwagon, and the advantage is nulled
B)Some governing body edits,creates or drafts rulings.

Football boots have changed drastically over the past decade or so, and everyone got the best, nullyfing the advantage.
Golf got along new drivers that gave bigger hits, and the governing body went ahead to ban them starting January this year.
American football saw the arrival of specially crafted gloves for wide receivers, so everyone got them.

The topic of conversation if high cap vs midcap lets remember, and hicap players generally, have an advantage over midcaps, i dont care what anyone says, how fast you reload etc, me having two mags in one, is an advantage.

Midcap players, are openly, agreeing to turn away from that advantage.

As much as everyone, me included, groans about cmags, they are an advantage for that person using them, and we are turning down that advantage.

When proper competitivess comes into this "sport" in ireland, such as leagues rankings etc etc etc. We will see a draft set of rules for these comps..such as midcaps only blah blah blah.

Then what we will see, is for players to familiarise with this, using midcaps only in normal skirmishes. As more players form teams, to join these leagues, they also will constantly use midcaps to familiarise themselves with the situation.

And then im sure we will see highcaps fade out. I personally, from my golf point of view, can take out a 460cc hop face driver out, and hit longer drives, during practice, no problem. But the point is i take my regular 460cc driver all the time, why, to familiarise myself with it, so i know yardage etc when i go into tournaments.

You cannot outright ban hicaps etc, but what will happen is maybe at some point everyone will willingly swop to midcaps to prepare and train for their use in leagues etc etc

Now this is down the road etc, but we are even seeing ammo limit games cropping into hrta, which are EXTREMELY fun. And ive gone and ordered 5 midcaps, to purposefully train myself in the art of controlled fire and reloading in combat, as i know others are.

At the end of the day, s this thread could go on forever, with all airsoft things, its choice, everyone has different prefences, as much as i like doing missions objectives etc, i like more when i hit someone with some bb's, its a good feeling.
And take into account msot of the people i play with/against on weekends in hrta etc, mostly use hicaps, i cannot and will not ever believe that hicaps were the cause for me to lose out on enjoyment in a game.

Puding

And at that time, the best gun you can get is say a G&G CQB, with a 15 volt battery and c mag. And without this gun, you arnt going to win. And say this piece of kit, only cost 300 euro in total.

I myself and i know other i play with have tryed are hardest to stay away from this mentality ( its the normally thing to say but we are not paintball, and are system is based on honor not the best thing for a hyper competitive game)

I myself do not want to play the game you fear airsoft will turn into but im of the ferm belief that this will not happen or if it does both types of games will be available to play.

If you look at the rest of the word hard core every advantage airsoft competitions do not happen or i;ve never seen them, if they did happen then there would be liens of 'sports aegs' with no bearing to the real world running on buckets and 12v batterys. What i do see is lots of mil sim games and big events along with swat skills competitions with and sniper skills competitions focusing on techniques and tactics (come on the swat skill competitions actually reward minimum force used)

When it comes down to it airsoft is open to all that is one of its advantages, there is no right and wrong really, yes there a lot of people who turn around and say 'hay noob your doing it wrong ' but welcome to the world there everywhere, there are 101 aegs out there, there is not right and wrong option to what you use, choose what you want to choose same with hi caps and mid caps, once you have done that simple choose the site and plays the game you want to play, as with everything else like minded people will be drawn together.

kevteljeur

Motosam wrote: »

Thats the thing, we could all use drums and high rof set ups, but that would be a totally sh1t game.
Alot of people want to experience a little realism in airsoft, not "win" at all costs, including using a glorified hose.

You've been practicing reason, haven't you! +1, Sam, you're on fire this week! Totally agree, if winning is everything, then for many people there is no point in playing, because it becomes about how much to spend to win. I have no time for that, and I think I'm not alone in saying that.

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

The lst few posts are pretty much concrete my belief that this isnt a sport..really and i know that causes sme outrage with some people.

I consider airsoft a hobby for myself.

<snip />

And take into account msot of the people i play with/against on weekends in hrta etc, mostly use hicaps, i cannot and will not ever believe that hicaps were the cause for me to lose out on enjoyment in a game.

Agreed! I think that games will eventually stream into both 'speedball' type games which are more of a free-for-all, and more realistic 'hardcore' games where players willingly take on restrictions/limitations as part of team practice. The first type will generally stay as a hobby, but I think the second type will eventually be recognised as a type of sport. And sports come with rules in order to mitigate the effects of technology on the player's prowess, which is what you're saying (as you've pointed out, many sports do that now, such as in cycling, since it started becoming a p1ssing contest between cycle manufacturers).

For the record, I do think we need to differentiate between the 'box-mag/c-mag on an M4' syndrome and use of hi-caps; while I don't like hi-caps, they can be the only way to deal with a mag shortage or dodgy bbs in a pinch for regular games, and they definitely don't give a big advantage over mid-caps (they still need to be wound, swapped-out, make noise, etc). C-mags are a different story altogether.

Fallschirmjager

i agree with the above posts from kevteljeur and puding, and well perhaps i should admit something,

when i was in gtac last, i have an amazing amount of childish fun blasting away at the white insulation thingies. what a great sound! even now never ceases to give me a chuckle. when hiding behind them and someone blasting was the most excellent fun.

i think airsoft is about fun and having a laugh as others have said. there is room for hi caps lowcaps midcaps...it depends on the game...so use what you want.

i still also love that meaty kerchunk from reloading a mag. one of lifes more simple pleasures.

so use what you want and what you can afford. i like all types of games. bullet festivals are a laugh but get boring. not firing at all and sneaking around is adult daiper time but can also get boring.


on docs point about winning at all costs, i just dont play in those games or with people who play like that, i am working all week with competitive, win at all costs pricks, i am certainly not wasting my valuable saturdays doing that-- but thats just me, others may want that or like that and if you do, good luck to you. its simply a case of whatever floats yer boat. the great news is we have no shortage of sites or shops and no shortage of games or game types...we are so incredibly lucky to be able to pick and choose...and for that i am eternally greatful..

Tigger

my primiary is a mk 1 saw because i realised very soon after starting airsoft that i'm a support gunner at heart i lopve to rattle away at people with 400 round bursts making the opposition keep their heads down while my rifle men can move into position

i got a p90 for a side arm an i can abandon the saw for mad charges unencumbered by weight an a team mate can cover me with it

i had a g36c my first aeg which i wasn't using and since my loadout is flecktarn i decided to spice up the motor upgrade the battery shim the gear bow stick it on bb bearings and put in a long inner barrel then clock it as the g36 support variant

thing is i got as far as increasing the rof and sticking on the c-mag when i realisted the in the current enviroment i should keep it as a uber airsoft yoke

with the stock removed and the high rate of fire its got far more than my saw
it beats it in every way so if the other team are gonne use box mags or even high caps i'll use the g36 if they use mids i use the saw and the p90

at the moment thats where i am i like doing it both ways

think that some form of realsilm grouping and some form of bb hose grouping would sort this out but as pudding sez i also don't play to win i play to play

i also feel that in a bb hose game regen should be fast and furious but in a real/mil sim game it should carry a real cost to be hit and before anyone says thay this would encourage peeps not to take their hits well thats a different issue

Tigger

i don't believe that a honour based system can be played for cash prizes

bragging rights should be enough

TheDoc

its called an example, a thereoretical example.

why do people make more time to drag down your example points then the actual point you made.

Agree with kev though, id like to see a restriction on box mags on regular aegs

but i wouldnt go as far as saying they are ruining the sport etc.