The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

U-Turn

ninty9er wrote: »

The state didn't pay for the road in the first place. NTR did, so they effectively bought a road off NTR that they couldn't afford at the time. By keeping the toll they're now paying for its upkeep. Westlink isn't the only toll road in the country, and many countries charge higher tolls in more loacations (France being a prime example).

Would you rather we kept the barriers and the tolls and fed the profit directly to a private company?

If France told us to burn our constituaiton and replace it with some EU treaty should we do it (hand in the fire if you don't get the cross pollination). In france only routes where there is a public alterntive to match are tolled if you follow.

Regards money gong into private companies coffers.... thats exaclty whats happening, Paul Cullen of the Irish times stated on radio a few days ago that The Government are only going to generate 25 million a year from this even though the Toll bridge is estimated to generate over 80 million in Tolls. Sound like a good Deal.

Not a bit.

More bad deals for the taxpayer and commuter foots the bill.

I'll put it in another context so you can see my point. 25 million is not alot in the great scheme of vital infrastructural things. If you rememebr During the ranibow coalition of the early 90's (when money was much tighter) they abolished 3rd level fees. Reportedly it was only going to cost an extra 12 million to the taxpayer to do so. Small cost and visionary decision in light of the larger benefit down the line most of us probably grew up with. This kind of thinking doens’t happen on FF’s watch . FF never favour the Public they always side with private business against the public greater interests.

Government-Corporist privatisation of public assests that we have paid for. The usual scam.

Your point about the Toll brudge being owend by NTR and private is erroneous becasue you have avoided the context. NTR bought the Land of the Governmetn initially knowing the the M50 was ready to rock.

"..in 1987 Minister for Transport Martin Cullen’s predecessor, Padraig Flynn, sold a small - but pivotal - piece of land to National Toll Roads for €14m (in today’s terms). Last Tuesday, Martin bought it back for €600m which we will pay in annual instalments of €50m. The final figure will be nearer to a billion, when the cost-of-living clause is invoked by NTR."

Full Article: http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/category/transport/the-m50-and-westlink-bridge/

This was a no brainer.
This was a massive con inacted by the state under Flynns watch.

From Day one this oll was always unjust and building a bridge is not a waste of public money nor is it a burden. Why do you think you pay motortax. The economic effect of a non Tolled M50 since inception would have been even greater and all of the tax revenue generated across the economic spectrum would have returned as other taax revenue in order of magnitude that would making this petty scheme look enemic and unburdensome on the travelling public.

For the record I am not a memeber of the media or any political party (I did set up that website I previously linked too so if thats media then aybe i am but its a blog with a forum, dont' want to post link agian in case I am accused of spamming). I simply lived long enough and in proximity to the M50 to know how stupid a setup it really is. I avoid using it on principal and have only used it about 3-4 times as a driver (more probably as a passnager)

I personally want to see the toll ended and some real focus on the real issues of the day not this farting around with people lives and wasting time and money.

Victor_M

U-Turn wrote: »

If France told us to burn our constituaiton and replace it with some EU treaty should we do it (hand in the fire if you don't get the cross pollination). In france only routes where there is a public alterntive to match are tolled if you follow.

Regards money gong into private companies coffers.... thats exaclty whats happening, Paul Cullen of the Irish times stated on radio a few days ago that The Government are only going to generate 25 million a year from this even though the Toll bridge is estimated to generate over 80 million in Tolls. Sound like a good Deal.

Not a bit.

More bad deals for the taxpayer and commuter foots the bill.

I'll put it in another context so you can see my point. 25 million is not alot in the great scheme of vital infrastructural things. If you rememebr During the ranibow coalition of the early 90's (when money was much tighter) they abolished 3rd level fees. Reportedly it was only going to cost an extra 12 million to the taxpayer to do so. Small cost and visionary decision in light of the larger benefit down the line most of us probably grew up with. This kind of thinking doens’t happen on FF’s watch . FF never favour the Public they always side with private business against the public greater interests.

Government-Corporist privatisation of public assests that we have paid for. The usual scam.

Your point about the Toll brudge being owend by NTR and private is erroneous becasue you have avoided the context. NTR bought the Land of the Governmetn initially knowing the the M50 was ready to rock.


This was a no brainer.
This was a massive con inacted by the state under Flynns watch.

From Day one this oll was always unjust and building a bridge is not a waste of public money nor is it a burden. Why do you think you pay motortax. The economic effect of a non Tolled M50 since inception would have been even greater and all of the tax revenue generated across the economic spectrum would have returned as other taax revenue in order of magnitude that would making this petty scheme look enemic and unburdensome on the travelling public.

For the record I am not a memeber of the media or any political party (I did set up that website I previously linked too so if thats media then aybe i am but its a blog with a forum, dont' want to post link agian in case I am accused of spamming). I simply lived long enough and in proximity to the M50 to know how stupid a setup it really is. I avoid using it on principal and have only used it about 3-4 times as a driver (more probably as a passnager)

I personally want to see the toll ended and some real focus on the real issues of the day not this farting around with people lives and wasting time and money.

Well said.

ninty9er

I'm not actually opposed to the idea of 1 boot each way...but in practice it doesn't make sense.

Tolls if low enough (as €2 is...but I reckon €1 would be enough) are a good way to gather income for the state.

It does after all do exactly what all the outraged motorists who frequent this place want....it charges by use and not indiscriminately.

Victor_M

ninty9er wrote: »

It does after all do exactly what all the outraged motorists who frequent this place want....it charges by use and not indiscriminately.

Thats great for someone who lives in Malahide and wants to go to Bray the odd time, but if you live beside it and it's the only decent road in the area and pretty much the only way to get to the south side not using it isn't really an option.

Again, in other countries you get tagged as you enter and exit and are charged accordingly so the indiscriminate comment isn't true, most of my journey's are one or 2 exits max yet I still have to pay the same as someone who uses the whole length of it daily. And the alternative routes around the Dublin 15 area aren't practical in a lot of cases, so it more a necessity than a luxury for the local residents.

Very few countries get tolled for a single section of a fundamental part of the national infrastructure.

Victor_M

Did anyone use it during rush hour today? How was it?

R.O.R

Victor_M wrote: »

Did anyone use it during rush hour today? How was it?

Came on at Ballymount heading Northbound. Once I negotiated around the Mad Cow off ramp traffic (now there is an issue that needs sorting :rolleyes:) it was 100km/h all the way to the nifty chicane they've installed instead of the toll:D

Traffic came to a standstill in more or less the same area as it used to after the toll, for the Blanchardstown exit - but I got there around 15 minutes quicker than I usually would.

Whether this continues remains to be seen. The first couple of days after they opened the extra lanes it was clear practically all the way to the M1. A week later it was queued from the toll to half way to Finglas :mad:

U-Turn

Victor_M wrote: »

Did anyone use it during rush hour today? How was it?

Guess what, the Tolled section has now had it status promoted to, wait for it, ROAD! Its now a normal road, no tolls, speed bumps or any other silly devices to cause misery.

Its not s freeway road but it is simply now a normal road after 18 years, like the rest of the FREE M50. Imagine that.

What did people expect?

Oh yea prpblems, delays and all such manner of stuff. Yet common sense dictates that when you remove a previous barrier freeflow will occur (on that seciton it was screamingly obvious despite the lies of NTR over teh years).... so its hard to listen to the NRA andMinister of State Ahern smugly state eveything was fine no real problem on the day. Sine it was only 10 days ago, the 20th of August that the NRA where scaremongering with predicitons of serious delays and problems. Pancing users. I wonder why.

Barrier-free M50 set for 'teething problems' 920th Aug, 10 days to barrier free but not Toll free)

The National Roads Authority admits there will be teething problems with the new barrier-free tolling system on Dublin's M50.

The NRA says that the transition will not be as smooth as people might expect.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0820/m50.html

The NRA are a bunch of messers at our expense. Of course it was going to be smooth but ye the NRA simply needed to panic everyone into registering (which tye had every right NOT to) and buy your phoney value prepays and plug into the tracking system.

This is the thin end of a very sinister wedge folks. Don't be fooled.

Seth Brundle

ninty9er wrote: »

...and many countries charge higher tolls in more loacations (France being a prime example).

IIRC we are the only country with a tolled orbital motorway (with no realistic alternative).

Seth Brundle

U-Turn wrote: »

Your point about the Toll brudge being owend by NTR and private is erroneous becasue you have avoided the context. NTR bought the Land of the Governmetn initially knowing the the M50 was ready to rock.


This was a no brainer.
This was a massive con inacted by the state under Flynns watch.

The government could not afford it at the time and AFAIK there was no prospect for getting finance for it at the time (nobody knew that the Celtic Tiger would come!).
Would we have been better off without the motorway between the N3 and N4 but still in possession of some land?
I'm in no way defending Pee or George but at the same time, be realistic.

U-Turn wrote: »

From Day one this oll was always unjust and building a bridge is not a waste of public money nor is it a burden. Why do you think you pay motortax. The economic effect of a non Tolled M50 since inception would have been even greater and all of the tax revenue generated across the economic spectrum would have returned as other taax revenue in order of magnitude that would making this petty scheme look enemic and unburdensome on the travelling public.

Motortax has nothing to do with roads. It goes straight into the central exchequer.
As for a non tolled M50 scenario - had the authorities opted against the privately owned and funded stretch of the M50, when exactly would the motorway have been built? What would commuting voters have said when faced with having to drive through the park etc.?
The M50 suited the needs at the time but with the unforseen and rapid increase in prosperity, the number of cars commuting across Dublin jumped and the motorway (including the private section) was not able to cope.
The simple fact is that we didn't have the money at the time to continue the M50 from the N3 to the N4. Had the government waited for some cash to build it, then it may have never been built!

U-Turn

kbannon wrote: »

The government could not afford it at the time and AFAIK there was no prospect for getting finance for it at the time (nobody knew that the Celtic Tiger would come!).
Would we have been better off without the motorway between the N3 and N4 but still in possession of some land?
I'm in no way defending Pee or George but at the same time, be realistic.

I think this user elsewhere on boards makes the point clearly

DWCommuter wrote: »

Thats more like it.:D

It definitely received no EU funding. The European structural fund as we know it today was not created until 1988. Too late for the Westlink. But it would have qualified under its predecessor, the European Regional Development fund, which was meant to finance the DART until the Government changed its mind.

I put this out to you. Did the Government of the day deliberately award the bridge contract to a private company as some sort of "favour", thereby ignoring EU funding. Or alternatively did the Government use EU funding in a careless fashion and ignore transport infrastructure?

Greece joined in 1981 and under EU structural funding built more miles of non tolled motorway/national route roads between 1990 and 1999, than Ireland did. From a quick look across the poorer EU members, as listed in 1988, (Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland) Ireland is the worst performing of the poorer nations in transport infrastructure. What went wrong? How have we ended up with PPP roads after billions in funding from the EU?

Motortax has nothing to do with roads. It goes straight into the central exchequer.

This may be the case but I think the presumption by all is Motor tax is for provision of Rads and services like TV License is for RTE coffers.

Its very hard ot find info on the justification for motor tax. I did a quick search but came up with nothing.

As for a non tolled M50 scenario - had the authorities opted against the privately owned and funded stretch of the M50, when exactly would the motorway have been built? What would commuting voters have said when faced with having to drive through the park etc.?

The M50 suited the needs at the time but with the unforseen and rapid increase in prosperity, the number of cars commuting across Dublin jumped and the motorway (including the private section) was not able to cope.
The simple fact is that we didn't have the money at the time to continue the M50 from the N3 to the N4. Had the government waited for some cash to build it, then it may have never been built!

I really think you are convincing yourself of a historical context that really wasn't the case, merely spun. We now know more about that era than we did then ad we know there where high levels of corruption across all government, local and national. You cannot ignore these facts. the legacy of Corrupt decisions made 10, 20 or 30 years ago should not be messing with our lives in 2008. Its that simple.

If you can't see the implicit corruption in the setup I am sorry if I have wasted your time. I don't buy the money argument a la my previous post. The EU where pumping us full of money, elections where fought and won on a few billion here and a few billion there. If that didn't do it borrowing a few million to build a bridge to unit a motorway which was planned in the 1970 is call forward thinking. Tolling is regressive and divisive. You sentiments clearly demonstrate you have been caught in the division.

You don't seem to have grasped the concept of the wider economic benefit resulting in tax revenue across the economy rising due to increase of economic activity enabled by the bridge.

Bridges are investments that give a utilitarian return immediately, then it becomes commercial, social and so on. Borrowing for this kind of thing is OK.

L1011

Motor tax funds county councils, not roads. Gormley's even confirmed this in the form response sent after any queries/complaints about the new motor tax system.

Peter Fitz

kbannon wrote:

IIRC we are the only country with a tolled orbital motorway (with no realistic alternative).

Not true. London's M25 is tolled at the dartford crossing over the Thames & there is no reasonable alternative. The crossing consists of 2 tunnels north & a bridge heading south as far as I remember.

quarryman

I couldn't be bothered reading through the last few days of posts to find out but how has rush hour traffic been now since its gone barrier-free?

faceman

I drove through the toll today and they have some of the gantries down but there were only 2 lanes open for traffic. Me eazypass didnt beep when i drove through the lanes. Wonder if i got a freebie! (I wish!)

cormie

For all the non beeping tags, I saw a sign on the M1 this morning saying something like "don't forget to activate your tag", maybe you folk haven't activated it? I don't know, I haven't got one yet so don't know the story with them.

R.O.R

cormie wrote: »

For all the non beeping tags, I saw a sign on the M1 this morning saying something like "don't forget to activate your tag", maybe you folk haven't activated it? I don't know, I haven't got one yet so don't know the story with them.

Mines an Eazypass which doesn't beep. I had to update some details today so I rang them. Eventually got through to someone after 10 minutes on hold who confirmed the 3 journeys I'd made had been debited.

I think it's E-Flow tags which need activating before use.

Damien360

I switched from a personal Eazypass to a company E-flow.

Eazypass beeps at the M4 and M8 toll only. Never on Eastlink, Westlink or M1.

Cancelling Eazypass was painless. Just send back tag with a letter stating your intentions.

E-flow tag needs to be activated after receiving it by email. Had to do that today to use it. They need the tag serial number and not it's ID number.

air

How did they manage to collect tolls today with the chicane around the old barriers? I would have thought it would be difficult to process the video plate recognition with 3 open lanes & cars weaving all over the place?
Are the tags some kind of high powered RFID tag or something? Havent gotten my hands on one yet.

Seth Brundle

I haven't used the N3-N4 section in a long time but AFAIK the cameras aren't located at the old toll booth but a little further towards the N3.

zing

R.O.R wrote: »

I think it's E-Flow tags which need activating before use.

tolltag.ie ones too. You've to phone a free phone number, enter the tag serial #. then they send you a txt to which you've to reply with the car reg. Then wait a bit and tag should be active. Haven't used mine yet so no idea if they beep or not.

U-Turn

Peter Fitz wrote: »

Not true. London's M25 is tolled at the dartford crossing over the Thames & there is no reasonable alternative. The crossing consists of 2 tunnels north & a bridge heading south as far as I remember.

You will find even on the Japanese Toll Roads you can pay cash.

it simply shouldn't be tolled. Its that simple.

I don't even think your example is comparable for various reason (they have a metro, bus system, rail networks that function). What other countries do is also irrelevant on either side of the argument. On this point you will note that this toll is in fact unique according tot its operators. Ireland and the highly apathetic population are being used as a real world genuine pig once more in a Government-Corporatist scam.

the NRA admit infact are proud so much they announce,

On February 14, 2007 the Board of the National Roads Authority announced its decision to award the contract for the construction and operation of the barrier-free tolling on the M50 to the French consortium, BetEire Flow.

“This is a significant milestone because it is the first multi-lane free-flow tolling operation within Europe which will commence operation on August 1, 2008”,

said Mr. Peter Malone Chairman of the NRA.

“This is an important step forward because barrier free tolling coinciding with the existing upgrade works on the M50 will allow us to maximise the efficiency of the M50 ”,

Ended with smelly bull do do. Toll free would maximise everyone cost of living.

Even teh company who are providing back this up.

NRA (National Road Authority)
The NRA chose CS to build and operate a free-flow toll collection system on the Dublin ring road (M50). This is the first operational integration of a complete free-flow system in Europe, following a pilot project in Stockholm, Sweden.

The project covers design and installation phases over a period of one and a half years, as well as a concession to operate the system for seven years, with anoption to extend the operation for three years. The sale and delivery of 250,000 contactless passes is also included.

In addition, CS will ensure maintenance and upgrades for the system throughout the contract period. Commissioning of the system is scheduled for June 2008, with traffic estimates ranging up to 120,000 vehicles per day.

CS is partnering with Sanef for this operation, which is worth a total of € 113 million. The partners have created a joint company in Ireland, Beteire Flow, owned respectively through a 20-percent and an 80-percent shareholding agreement.

250,000, was that not the number which supposedly signed up for tags according to the NRA, I think there is a little spinning going on unless proven otherwise I will remain cynica and not buy into the hype.

At present eFlow has over 100,000 registered vehicles and together with the other operators there is a combined total of about 270,000 vehicles registered in total

If everyone decided to not pay the toll in the morning it would be at least 24 hours before anyone would cop and then it would be too late the system would be over people would realize it is i fact easier not to pay than to pay and then it would be free for good.

eflow is compelled open to collapse, no barriers... its a no brainer that why the NRA have been panicking people with false future prediction in the lead up. I am truly dismayed buy the sheer sheeplenss of the people.

If you use this twice a day for 5 days a week 52 weeks a year for 10 years it going to cost you at least over 10,000 euro at today cheapest rate. Nuts!

Peter Fitz

U-turn wrote:

You will find even on the Japanese Toll Roads you can pay cash.

it simply shouldn't be tolled. Its that simple.

I don't even think your example is comparable for various reason (they have a metro, bus system, rail networks that function). What other countries do is also irrelevant on either side of the argument. On this point you will note that this toll is in fact unique according tot its operators. Ireland and the highly apathetic population are being used as a real world genuine pig once more in a Government-Corporatist scam.

I made the point in direct response to kbannon's contention that the m50 was the only tolled urban orbital motorway, its not & the situations are entirely comparable.

If you are contending that london motorists have any other alternative other than to use the m25 to get around london, particularly given that access to the city centre is tolled, you are wrong.

I've not set out to argue that the road should be tolled or otherwise, its not a major issue for me, tolls are a fact of life in this and every other country - its simply another tax that goes directly to the exchequer. I'll pay the 2 euro if I can get around the m50 without delay or obsturction as will be the case once the upgrade is complete, perhaps the toll should not have been applied until then.

You seem to be of the view that just because you pay motor tax, that should cover all motoring related expenses. If we were relying solely on governments tax take from motor tax to fund construction & maintenance of our roads - there wouldn't be an M50 or bypass anywhere.

U-turn wrote:

If you use this twice a day for 5 days a week 52 weeks a year for 10 years its going to cost you at least over 10,000 euro at today cheapest rate. Nuts!

So will buying a cup of coffee. Get over it.

serfboard

U-Turn wrote: »

On this point you will note that this toll is in fact unique according tot its operators.

It's not unique. The press releases (or whatever they are) that you quote even state so. This say that this is the first one within Europe. There are similar systems in operation in other countries (e.g. Canada).

Our man in Havana

There was a similar cashless system in Stockholm.

Peter Fitz

and London's city centre congestion charge is also a barrier free, cashless operation.

MercMad

Unfortunately the tolls are here to stay, justifyably or not, and we have to get used to it.

My main beef is the way they dropped the tax rate to zero, allow bikes free (because its too much hassle for them to trace them with NPR) but more than that I dont see why I should be penalised because I dont feel like buying a tag !

All car users should be paying €2.00, none of this €2.50 & €3.00 cr4p !!

Thats what really bugs me.

Anyway motorists in this Country should and could be a strong organisation but most are to weak to stand up to this stuff. Like I said before I wont be paying the toll................simple as that !

Run_to_da_hills

air wrote: »

How did they manage to collect tolls today with the chicane around the old barriers? I would have thought it would be difficult to process the video plate recognition with 3 open lanes & cars weaving all over the place?.

These ANPR cameras are extremely accurate and have no trouble detecting your registration details in moving traffic, they are also starting to fit these same cameras to bus lanes and Garda cars.

air wrote: »

Are the tags some kind of high powered RFID tag or something? Havent gotten my hands on one yet.

Yes they are a high powered Active RFID tag, If you get one throw it in a lead lined glove compartment or remove the batteries when you are not using it unless you want to be electronically followed across the city

ninty9er

U-Turn wrote: »

If you use this twice a day for 5 days a week 52 weeks a year for 10 years it going to cost you at least over 10,000 euro at today cheapest rate. Nuts!

You mean the same as it was last month?:rolleyes:

The idea of a cashless operation stems from the fact that it's progressive in a society that is becomeing les and less cash orineted and more electronically aware. This system operates in Singapore with a lot more gantries.

eringobragh

Any pics of the new gantry?? The camera is forward facing I presume

j1smithy

I want to respond to some of the comments U-Turn made regarding the tolls, and this applies to a toll on any road not just the M50. There are two purposes for a toll, A) Revenue generation which is fairly obvious, and control of congestion, which is less obvious. The main problem with the M50 is that it was too good at what it did, thus it attracted too many motorists and congestion was the result. Due to agreements that were in place the toll charge was fixed in real terms (in reality adjusted for inflation). Believe it or not there was strong justification for a hike in tolls especially during rush hour, in order to dissuade people from using the route. It is my guess that political pressure stopped this from happening, as increased cost would have been a fairly simple fix to end/reduce congestion. I don't believe the M50 upgrade will be a success in the long term, not unless it is accompanied by increasing tolls. The improvements will increase trip generation, with greater numbers on the roads we will be back to where we started (this assumes that other factors do not influence trip generation such as fuel costs).

A second reason for tolling, is that the road is expensive to build and maintain. Although the road is of economic benefit to the entire country, is it not appropriate that those that use it most pay for it?

Besides it is possible to reduce the amount you pay by reducing the number of trips through the bridge and by living closer to your place of work.