Charles Darwin Vs Religion ?

Chong

So then knowing quite a few people on her adore Darwin and his biggest fan Richard Dawkins, I have just watched the "The Genius of Charles Darwin" on Channel 4. I believe in most of Darwins work of what I know but I also have fatih in religion , is that possible, or should it be one or the other per say.

The way Dawkins speaks , religion is stupidity as Darwin disproves it.

Riddle101

Van Zuylen wrote: »

So then knowing quite a few people on her adore Darwin and his biggest fan Richard Dawkins, I have just watched the "The Genius of Charles Darwin" on Channel 4. I believe in most of Darwins work of what I know but I also have fatih in religion , is that possible, or should it be one or the other per say.

The way Dawkins speaks , religion is stupidity as Darwin disproves it.

You should believe what you want no matter what other people say. However IMO neither side is truly right Science or Religon, they are both wrong in centain ways

PrivateEye

I'm an agnostic, out and out. I refuse to rule anything out completely, but I think logic stands against religion to be honest. Obviously, I would love to be proven wrong. I find Dawkins very, very annoying- and several of my friends who wouldn't touch religion with a large stick agree.

When I was younger, a tune by a punk band called NOFX stuck with me

It's not that I don't believe in Jesus Christ.
It's just I care about other things.
The world could certainly use some miracles,
Until then I'll put my faith in human being.

Dawkins is the high priest of atheism, and the one thing more annoying that a gobsh!e out side the GPO shoving Christian leaflets into your shopping bag is a smug annoying bloke like Dawkins flogging books on telly in his trademark 'I'm smart, the world is thick' way.

SoupyNorman

What of Darwins work do you not believe in?

brianthebard

The catholic church says yes.So long as you don't go in for higher criticism then its all good.

BroomBurner

There's nothing to say that they can't co-exist, bar the "creationists". I am both a scientist and a believer in God and think you should believe in whatever suits you best.

IMO, science tells us how we're here, religion tells us why.

Fanny Cradock

I'm a Christian (not Catholic, BTW) and I see no conflict. I really dislike it when people try to create divisions between science and faith in God - like holding belief in both is somehow impossible in one person. Science informs us on scientific matters, religion (or faith if you prefer) informs us on metaphysical matters.

brianthebard

Wasn't science in part designed to better understand god?

Fanny Cradock

Well, I don't think you can say it was designed with any one intention in mind other than understanding. However, I guess that for many it was and still remains a primary motivation.

Seachmall

brianthebard wrote: »

Wasn't science in part designed to better understand god?

To understand the world, whether that proved or disproved the existence of God is irrelevant.

Either way I don't think religion can be taken seriously. I'm agnostic and believe there is a chance God exists but I refuse to accept that the bible is the word of God. It was written by men, men make mistakes. It has been edited and disected by the church and so what ever truth may have been there is long gone.

If in fact there is a God he is not perfect either. He is not all-good or is he not all-knowing, looking at the world we live in it is clear one of these is a lie.

He may be eternal but if it is so hard to believe that is it so hard to believe the universe is eternal?

I seem to be ranting on, no doubt this has been discussed 100s of times already in this forum

SoupyNorman

BroomBurner wrote: »

There's nothing to say that they can't co-exist, bar the "creationists". I am both a scientist and a believer in God and think you should believe in whatever suits you best.

IMO, science tells us how we're here, religion tells us why.

Certain religions teach that the earth was created in 6days, pretty direct conflict there. I've a slight sliver of a belief in a higher power as even the most esteemed scientists can only offer a theory as to was was before "The Big Bang". The sliver of belief is about .1% .

Fact and proof for me. The Bible is a work of fiction, thats what I believe.

Seachmall

bravestarr082 wrote: »

Certain religions teach that the earth was created in 6days, pretty direct conflict there. I've a slight sliver of a belief in a higher power as even the most esteemed scientists can only offer a theory as to was was before "The Big Bang". The sliver of belief is about .1% .

Fact and proof for me. The Bible is a work of fiction, thats what I believe.

Religion also tells us the world is only a few million years old when we know for a fact it is billions of years old.

Did anyone see 'Was Darwin Wrong' on National Geo a few weeks ago? Interesting stuff, Was Darwin Wrong?

the drifter

Darwin has to be right.... if i wake up some morning and.. you know that dude from nazareth is walking around again...boy am i going to be red faced...

Fanny Cradock

bravestarr082 wrote: »

Certain religions teach that the earth was created in 6days, pretty direct conflict there. I've a slight sliver of a belief in a higher power as even the most esteemed scientists can only offer a theory as to was was before "The Big Bang". The sliver of belief is about .1% .

You seem to be mistaking creationism with Christianity.

rossie1977

Seachmall wrote: »

Religion also tells us the world is only a few million years old when we know for a fact it is billions of years old.

a few thousand actually, around 6,000 years old to be precise

Talliesin

Van Zuylen wrote: »

I believe in most of Darwins work of what I know but I also have fatih in religion , is that possible, or should it be one or the other per say.

Well, since Darwin remained a Christian after arriving at his theories (he did later become an agnostic, but that was some time later and theodicy was a bigger sticking point for him than creation myths), and the Big Bang Theory (an even bigger blow to literal belief in most creation myths) was first put forward by a Catholic priest, there would certainly seem to be more than a few people who've manage to believe in both.

Most religious people in the West believe in evolution.

Van Zuylen wrote: »

The way Dawkins speaks , religion is stupidity as Darwin disproves it.

Dawkins should stick to what he's good at. He's good at explaining evolutionary theory; but he really isn't very good at religion. He builds strawmen and knocks them down very well, and if Atheism ever needs its own L. Ron Hubbard he'll have placed himself very well to take the job, but anyone citing The Golden Bough as a source on religious history can't really be taken seriously (funnily enough, a strawman argument by Atheists against some other religions used to be to mock them were some of their members to take The Golden Bough seriously!).

genericgoon

the drifter wrote: »

Darwin has to be right.... if i wake up some morning and.. you know that dude from nazareth is walking around again...boy am i going to be red faced...

I think most of the creationist crap is sourced from the Old Testament. Maybe he'd just say that was one of the wrong bits of the OT. lol

SoupyNorman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You seem to be mistaking creationism with Christianity.

Eh, I dont think so...

Genesis 1:1-2:3

Sqaull20

I love listening to George Carlin, Dawkins takes it too seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&feature=related

Seachmall

rossie1977 wrote: »

a few thousand actually, around 6,000 years old to be precise

Apolagies, but we now know that the world is 3.56billion years old :eek: (Its in the link I provided). Thats alot older then 6,000 years:D

Executive Steve

bravestarr082 wrote: »

Eh, I dont think so...

Genesis 1:1-2:3

good luck finding a christian in ireland who actually believes thatthough... (even in america it's harder than you'd think)

if you do, ask them if they eat pork, circumcise their children, and take mildewed leather to the priest for puification.

Seachmall

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

good luck finding a christian in ireland who actually believes thatthough... (even in america it's harder than you'd think)

if you do, ask them if they eat pork, circumcise their children, and take mildewed leather to the priest for puification.

If you don't believe it can you really believe the rest of the bible? How can you tell whats just a 'story' or not? You can't pick and choose, you either believe and follow 'Gods word' or you're not a Christian and you're not going to heaven.

bringitdown

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

good luck finding a christian in ireland who actually believes thatthough... (even in america it's harder than you'd think)

if you do, ask them if they eat pork, circumcise their children, and take mildewed leather to the priest for puification.

http://www.creation.ie/

Not too active tho ... am sure there are a few

Parsley

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

good luck finding a christian in ireland who actually believes thatthough... (even in america it's harder than you'd think)

if you do, ask them if they eat pork, circumcise their children, and take mildewed leather to the priest for puification.

I'd link you to the thread in Christianity (about 300 pages i think?) but I'm banned from there.

Fanny Cradock

bravestarr082 wrote: »

Eh, I dont think so...

Genesis 1:1-2:3

Yes, I aware of that part of the Bible. Those verses, however, do not conflict with evolutionary theory. Instead, they only mention God creating the universe, the method is not mentioned. I'm unsure as to you point here.

Either you are actually ignorant of what, in my experience, is the majority interpretation of Genesis by Christians in Europe: a metaphorical tale of creation (also know as theistic evolution) or you are being deliberately obtuse in your insistence that all Christians are young earth creationists.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

um
it says in genesis that god made eve from adam's rib. how does that fit into christian evolutionary theory?

Seachmall

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, I aware of that part of the Bible. Those verses, however, do not conflict with evolutionary theory. Instead, they only mention God creating the universe, the method is not mentioned. I'm unsure as to you point here.

Either you are actually ignorant of what, in my experience, is the majority interpretation of Genesis by Christians in Europe: a metaphorical tale of creation (also know as theistic evolution) or you are being deliberately obtuse in your insistence that all Christians are young earth creationists.

And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Don't sound like evolution, and how does anyone know its a metaphorical tale? Its written with the same sinserity (sp?) of the rest of the bible, if you don't take the word of God seriously you won't get into heaven :mad:

RiotO

Seachmall wrote: »

If you don't believe it can you really believe the rest of the bible? How can you tell whats just a 'story' or not? You can't pick and choose, you either believe and follow 'Gods word' or you're not a Christian and you're not going to heaven.

Why can't an individual pick and choose what to believe in? It's your own personal belief after all so why do you have to essentially sign up to an entire set of beliefs. That's why I find organised religion hard to grasp as a concept. We are brought up to believe a whole range of stuff without actually thinking about it for ourselves. I'd consider myself agnostic btw.

Seachmall

RiotO wrote: »

Why can't an individual pick and choose what to believe in? It's your own personal belief after all so why do you have to essentially sign up to an entire set of beliefs. That's why I find organised religion hard to grasp as a concept. We are brought up to believe a whole range of stuff without actually thinking about it for ourselves. I'd consider myself agnostic btw.

I too am agnostic, and my belief in the possibility of God includes him having nothing to do with the church, just thought I'd clear that up from the get go.

Its perfectly fine to have your own set of beliefs, its the logical thing (as logical as God goes anyway) but it states in the Bible numerous times you must follow Gods word (and Jesuss' for that matter) to the Tee or you will burn for eternity. The Church promotes this however they also choose to leave bits and pieces out of the bible, stuff like murder of non-believers and the like. They kinda have to but can you see the hypocrisy?

Parsley

RiotO wrote: »

Why can't an individual pick and choose what to believe in? It's your own personal belief after all so why do you have to essentially sign up to an entire set of beliefs. That's why I find organised religion hard to grasp as a concept. We are brought up to believe a whole range of stuff without actually thinking about it for ourselves. I'd consider myself agnostic btw.

Well if you believe "some bits" of the Bible as the literal word of God, which is what it's supposed to be, then dismiss other bits as being incorrect, it kinda throws the whole supreme/perfect/infallible being concpt out the window doesn't it? It's a simple case of people more readily believing what they'd rather was true, grasping at straws so that their religious beliefs aren't scoffed at.

genericgoon

Meh, the chances of you picking the right interpretation of God's will combined with the chances that a God exists means that chances of achieving salvation(if there is a such a thing, personally I think not) are hopelessly slim.

SoupyNorman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, I aware of that part of the Bible. Those verses, however, do not conflict with evolutionary theory. Instead, they only mention God creating the universe, the method is not mentioned. I'm unsure as to you point here.

Either you are actually ignorant of what, in my experience, is the majority interpretation of Genesis by Christians in Europe: a metaphorical tale of creation (also know as theistic evolution) or you are being deliberately obtuse in your insistence that all Christians are young earth creationists.

Well my interpretation of God Creating the universe does conflict with the evolutionary theory...


# Fifth day: God commands the sea to "teem with living creatures", and birds to fly across the heavens (sixth command); He creates birds and sea creatures, and commands them to be fruitful and multiply.
# Sixth day: God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command); He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates Man and Woman in His "image" and "likeness"


To me, it is saying that living creatures were 'placed' on the earth fully formed.

bringitdown

RiotO wrote: »

Why can't an individual pick and choose what to believe in? It's your own personal belief after all so why do you have to essentially sign up to an entire set of beliefs. That's why I find organised religion hard to grasp as a concept. We are brought up to believe a whole range of stuff without actually thinking about it for ourselves. I'd consider myself agnostic btw.

Am pretty sure Dawkins would agree, and Darwin for that matter. Where they may disagree is when parents by default impose their beliefs on their children.

How do you get to a stage that children can grow up, be educated scientifically and then in their own time and space explore their own spirituality or lack thereof free from the imposition of their parents and peers beliefs ... ?

I'm atheist BTW, and I face the same connundrum ... if I ever have children how do I foster that open edict without predisposing them to scientific reason without ridiculing organised religion? Would I be guilty of 'brain washing' as Dawkins might say?

I agree with him most of the time but I think he should concentrate on his secular agenda and leave the religious to ridicule themselves, they are very adept at doing it.

Plenty of debate on this in the Christianity and the Atheism / Agnostic forums.

Parsley

bravestarr082 wrote: »

Well my interpretation of God Creating the universe does conflict with the evolutionary theory...


# Fifth day: God commands the sea to "teem with living creatures", and birds to fly across the heavens (sixth command); He creates birds and sea creatures, and commands them to be fruitful and multiply.
# Sixth day: God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command); He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates Man and Woman in His "image" and "likeness"


To me, it is saying that living creatures were 'placed' on the earth fully formed.

Also, the whole "days" thing before there was an earth and a sun for it to orbit around is a bit silly. :pac:

shenanigans1982

If Sky News told you some guy looking like a Bee Gee was performing miracles in the Middle East today would you base your whole life beliefs around him?

I seriously doubt it so Religion = bullsh*t.

Seachmall

genericgoon wrote: »

Meh, the chances of you picking the right interpretation of God's will combined with the chances that a God exists means that chances of achieving salvation(if there is a such a thing, personally I think not) are hopelessly slim.

Times the odds your even with the right religion in the first place...

Different region or different time and we would all probably be believing in a different God with different beliefs.

rossie1977

Seachmall wrote: »

Apolagies, but we now know that the world is 3.56billion years old :eek: (Its in the link I provided). Thats alot older then 6,000 years:D

the earth is 6,000 years, people like this guy say it so it must be true :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWCEwOC_ubY

krd

Seachmall wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotO View Post
Why can't an individual pick and choose what to believe in? It's your own personal belief after all so why do you have to essentially sign up to an entire set of beliefs. That's why I find organised religion hard to grasp as a concept. We are brought up to believe a whole range of stuff without actually thinking about it for ourselves. I'd consider myself agnostic btw.

Why can't an individual pick and choose what they want to believe in?

It would be fine if people did that and kept it to themselves. But like many people, I don't want creepy people telling my children that there are fairies in the sky, who love them and they can do whatever evil they like and be forgiven.

The problem is people with these hokey supersitions get together in groups and start forcing it on other people. (but they'll protect their loyal child molestors)

The clerical sex abuse went on in Ireland, not because people didn't know about it. But because of the whole 'holy god' lie drove people to protecting the sky pilots over their victims.

Talk to someone in their fifties. If they say they knew nothing about the sexual abuse, they're lying like the Germans who used to say they had no idea the Jews were being gassed.

I want to get rid of religous people because I think it's a dangerous scam run by liars and scumbags.

You can believe the earth is flat if you like... But don't try and pass it off as fact. And don't go telling it to children.

The Athesists have won,,, and won for ever. If we could just replace the first holy communion and confirmation with something secular,, we'd be nearer down the road to completely wiping out the menace that is Christianity.

But don't worry we've already won (he hee ha ha ha LOL <-- evil echoy laugh)

The game is over,, Enlightenment Ideals have won out. The bearer of light has triumphed.

FruitLover

Personally, I think religion is a cop-out. I'm more comfortable with my beliefs that I will never understand why we're here, that there's any other 'world' after this life, that there is no such thing as a soul, that humans are nothing more than animals with powerful brains, etc. Some people feel more comfortable by imagining that the world and everything on it was created by some dude with a beard who lives in the sky (:rolleyes:). If you bollox up your life, don't worry, you'll be happy forever in heaven after you die! (again, :rolleyes:).

bringitdown wrote: »

How do you get to a stage that children can grow up, be educated scientifically and then in their own time and space explore their own spirituality or lack thereof free from the imposition of their parents and peers beliefs ... ?

I think you can offer the facts as we know them without impairing 'spiritual' or philosophical exploration. For example:

Child: Daddy, what is everything made from?
Daddy: Blah blah quarks, blah blah gluons, etc etc

Child: Daddy, when did people start living on Earth?
Daddy: Well, judging by carbon-dating of fossils, the earliest known examples of the genus Homo lived approximately.... etc

Child: Daddy, why are we here?
Daddy: Dunno.

Seachmall

rossie1977 wrote: »

the earth is 6,000 years, people like this guy say it so it must be true :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWCEwOC_ubY

Thats a pretty good video, however if it were all as obvious as he makes it out to be we wouldn't be having this discussion. There must be more too it.

rossie1977

Seachmall wrote: »

Thats a pretty good video, however if it were all as obvious as he makes it out to be we wouldn't be having this discussion. There must be more too it.

the argument he makes about the moon is bogus, its moving away from the earth at less than one inch per year so after 4.5 billion years it has moved roughly 70,000 miles away so it was roughly 180,000 miles from earth at one point in the beginning. Then he talks about floods etc that would have caused (yeah how exactly were the oceans created )

Parsley

Seachmall wrote: »

Thats a pretty good video, however if it were all as obvious as he makes it out to be we wouldn't be having this discussion. There must be more too it.

.....and there are so many things wrong with it you'd be hard pressed to find somewhere to start.

Seachmall

Parsley wrote: »

.....and there are so many things wrong with it you'd be hard pressed to find somewhere to start.

rossie1977 wrote: »

the argument he makes about the moon is bogus, its moving away from the earth at less than one inch per year so after 4.5 billion years it has moved roughly 70,000 miles away so it was roughly 180,000 miles from earth at one point in the beginning. Then he talks about floods etc that would have caused (yeah how exactly were the oceans created )

I'll have to take ye're words on that, alot of it went over my head:D

krd

Black hole theory shows that something can come out of nothing.

This experimentally demonstratable by the Casimir effect. Which also explains the consistency of mayonaise (I have not made that bit up)

Religon gets in the way of forcing people to solve existential problems.

If all those religous suicide bombers had actually stayed alive and worked on the material issues that effected them and their environment, they could've had a better world in the now, and not in the hereafter.

But worse,,, Religon is a scam.

The German word for Heaven is Himmel,,, which just means Sky

There's nothing up in the sky apart for nothing. And the stars,, but what beautiful stars they are.

Virgin births,, resurection ,,, all a bit far fetched Ted, isn't it.

Grow up people

Cunny-Funt

Riddle101 wrote: »

You should believe what you want no matter what other people say. However IMO neither side is truly right Science or Religon, they are both wrong in centain ways

In what ways is religion right?

Seachmall

Riddle101 wrote: »

You should believe what you want no matter what other people say. However IMO neither side is truly right Science or Religon, they are both wrong in centain ways

Science never claims to be truely right, that is why everything is a theory. Whats true today may not be true tomorrow, everything hangs on the fact it hasn't been disproved yet which is why I haven't ruled out God.

krd

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

In what ways is religion right?

I believe in horoscopes.

Nobody's ever heard of an Astrologist blowing themselves up on a bus,, or flying a plane into a building.

Captain Darling

Science help...........


I mean God help us............:pac:

Seachmall

krd wrote: »

I believe in horoscopes.

Nobody's ever heard of an Astrologist blowing themselves up on a bus,, or flying a plane into a building.

I'm sure they have, it may not have been for there beliefs but rarely do Atheists blow people up on busses for their beliefs, mainly because they're defined as not having beliefs.

Zillah

As an educated atheist this thread is sheer agony.

Seachmall

Zillah wrote: »

As an educated atheist this thread is sheer agony.

Care to educate us? Things seem to be slowing down around here.:o