irelands appalling olympic record

Macha

Amz wrote: »

What?

Please use your entire keyboard for writing posts, there's no character limit.

Sorry amz.should have directed that at other poster. Posting from a mobile so apologies!

Amz

Okey doke.

Back on topic anyway.

Sparks

eunified61 wrote: »

referring to my thread "developing decision makers in sport" Coaching Ireland and Coaching strategy for Ireland are being launched in DCU in September. It is probably a step forward in what is being talked about.

It's a step, but only a first baby step, and with sports budgets being cut (the capital grant was cut down from €85 million to €50 million this year despite the governments prior commitments and promises to sports funding), it's hard to see it being followed through on by them with the necessary funding.

Whether we like it or not race plays a part, Africans are generally more agile than Europeans, but it wont be too long before we have a few Afro Celt athletes.

Ah, the smell of eugenics in the morning...

As regards schools I believe that students should be limited to One outdoor team sport one athletic event and one indoor sport or some such arrangement (subject for a thread).

What a crock. If anything they should be encouraged, if not forced, to diversify and try a range of sports and pick what they want to do themselves - and if that means more than one sport, then fine. Right now we have barriers in the way of kids getting to sports they do well in; you're suggesting we erect more by making it an exceptionally significant choice and making them make it too early.

irish_bob

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Wow, sounds amazing.

And someone on here (I think his name is Bob) thinks it's nothing to do with facilites. Of course not Bob

if making excuses for failure were an olympic sport , id send you to bejing and would cry tears of pride when you took to that podium

Sparks

Bob, those who've made it to Beijing this year haven't failed. The simple fact is that even getting there required overcoming enormous obstacles, and the lack of facilities is one of those, along with the lack of coaching, lack of sports education, lack of sports programs, the fact that when you get above club level in Irish sports administration it generally turns into a crock of faecal matter, and the fact that sports are not seen in Ireland as something to invest in (except for during and just after the Games every four years). You also have to remember that they're going up against athletes who have far more backing than they did. The Koreans just won the archery medals in the team event. To train for that event, they sent a support team to Beijing to map the arena there, and then they built a complete replica of that arena in Korea to train in. In Ireland, the archers train in whatever spare fields they can find. You're going to tell us that the Koreans have no advantage?

ZiggyStardust

irish_bob wrote: »

if making excuses for failure were an olympic sport , id send you to bejing and would cry tears of pride when you took to that podium

Bob, name one person on the Irish team who is a failure so far?
What is your definition of failure? From 4th place on?
Well I know I won't get an answer to this question.

Deedsie

I am not sure if this is the kind of thing you are referring to but im from Nenagh, in the town centre we have a 400m running track with a big enough pitch in the centre that could hold all field events, a 200m indoor running track and a 25m public swimming pool. That is pretty impressive facilities for a town of under 5000 when they were built. Ive been trying for the last two weeks to get in contact with someone from the Nenagh Olympic athletic club to Start/improve my training by using the indoor running track, but its nearly impossible to get in contact with anyone.

With the olympics on now, clubs should be pushing for members. You cant blame the GAA for having a strong tradition and working hard to encourage people to play there sports. Instead of blaming them people should take a leaf out of there book.

thirtyfoot

Deedsie wrote: »

I am not sure if this is the kind of thing you are referring to but im from Nenagh, in the town centre we have a 400m running track with a big enough pitch in the centre that could hold all field events, a 200m indoor running track and a 25m public swimming pool. That is pretty impressive facilities for a town of under 5000 when they were built. Ive been trying for the last two weeks to get in contact with someone from the Nenagh Olympic athletic club to Start/improve my training by using the indoor running track, but its nearly impossible to get in contact with anyone.

.

Nenagh Olympic have had a few barren years and the club was pretty much dead but is starting to make a comeback which is great and they produced many great athletes. Contact www.athleticsireland.ie or jacqui@athleticsireland.ie (Director of Development) and they will put you in touch. The indoor track does get slagged but it was great foresight by the Nenagh crew to build it years ago and shows what can be achieved. The outdoor track is unfortunately not up to standard as it not tartan but there is a new tartan one in Templemore which you could use.

Deedsie

Tingle wrote: »

Nenagh Olympic have had a few barren years and the club was pretty much dead but is starting to make a comeback which is great and they produced many great athletes. Contact www.athleticsireland.ie or jacqui@athleticsireland.ie (Director of Development) and they will put you in touch. The indoor track does get slagged but it was great foresight by the Nenagh crew to build it years ago and shows what can be achieved. The outdoor track is unfortunately not up to standard as it not tartan but there is a new tartan one in Templemore which you could use.

Well you could not tartan it for lads with boots on the pitches would just ruin it. Im just saying the potential is there. I emailed both of those already. Why does the indoor track get slagged out of curiosity? How much does it cost to lay a proper outdoor running track?

thirtyfoot

Deedsie wrote: »

Why does the indoor track get slagged out of curiosity? How much does it cost to lay a proper outdoor running track?

Its always cold, it looks like a hayshed and hence got the name Naughton's Hayshed. In fairness, it is a fantastic training facility and allows many athletes train indoors in the depths of winter. As a competition facility it probably doesn't look the snazziest compared to Odyssey in Belfast or Kelvin Hall in Glasgow or Birmingham. I trained on it when it was sand or clay or whatever it was and when the tartan opened it was a major breakthrough in the technical side of Irish setup. Indoor arenas are more beneficial for training purposes on the straights as the banks are so tight any longer stuff can be difficult. A great example of an indoor athletic training facility is Loughborough in Leicester, its what the new place in Abbotstown should look like in my opinion. Don't know how much tartan tracks cost but it would be into the 6 figures at least, the total facility in Templemore just down the road from you will come to around €750,000 in total I think.

Dodge

Nolanger wrote: »

The only Irish with a hope of winning are the boxers because they actually have the will and determination to do it.

Interesting that you should mention the boxers. After years of failures (only 1 boxer qualifed at each of the last 2 Olympics), the IABA pumped HUGE money into an elite programme that basically meant that our top amateurs were professionals (earning a bursory as opposed to fight pay packets). It wasn't will and determintion that changed the boxers from "nobodies" to genuine contendors. It was money, and the ability of the boxers to train when they wanted, and figt all over the world gaining experience.

The most striking example I can give about how much finding can cahcne things is the British track cycling team. In 1992 Chris Boardman came from nowehere to win gold. He was a freak, much like our own Kelly and Roche on the roads. The British authorites ploughed millions into top class facilities and at the last World Championship (held in manchester) they won 9 gold medals.

There will be plenty of sportspeople in Ireland who possibly could've gone on to Olympic standard but if they're going to struggle financially, it may not be worth the risk.

The dominance of GAA, football and rugby here means that we're missing out on the "minority" sports where similar countries to ourselves pick up medals. The OCI should put in place structures to ensure that we have strong national federations in every Olympic sport (and lobby hard for Womens boxing and golf to be included )

But of course it all boils down to money, and the simple facts are that without massive government funding, we can't create these structures. And this government, and every Irish government before it, have proven themselves completely useless in this regard, continuing to pump money into the cash rich world of horse racings and GAA.

Oh and BTW, I think its pretty pathetic for anybody to criticise the best this country can produce in various sports. If you're Usian Bolt you can mock our athletes, if you're somebody who watches athletics just at the Olympics, you have absolutely no right to criticise.

irish_bob

the bulk of our sporting talent in this country get hoovered up by the gaa , a much lesser amount soccer followed by rugby and the latter 2 are mostly city based , in rural ireland , the gaa is all consuming in terms of talent
whats leftover ends up representing us at bejing , 2nd rate sports people
its not great achievement qualifying for the irish team when you consider how few play olympic sports

i have a cousin who was croquet champion in ireland for 2 yrs running , he was 1st of about 6 who play the thing

Sparks

Dodge wrote: »

we're missing out on the "minority" sports where similar countries to ourselves pick up medals. The OCI should put in place structures to ensure that we have strong national federations in every Olympic sport (and lobby hard for Womens boxing and golf to be included )

It's not just the money and structures for some; shooting also has to cope with the most draconian set of rules in the entire EU for target shooting. Derek Burnett started shooting shotgun as a kid at age 11 and he started two years after most of his competitors on the circuit - but even then, the rules technically say he's not allowed to even start until he's 16 in this country (there's a gray area when you're on an authorised range which is how he managed it, but even that has seen some assailing recently).

If you look at Katerina Emmons (just won the first gold medal of the Beijing Games):


What she's holding there is not a firearm in the Czech Republic, or anywhere else in the EU, including in Northern Ireland (not to mention the rest of the world). It's an airgun, with a muzzle energy of about 7 joules (half that of a paintball gun). In Ireland, the same rules apply to that as apply to a .308 rifle. Katerina didn't start shooting at 16 - she started shooting much, much earlier (around 9 if I remember right) and by the time she hit 21 (when you stop being a junior in target shooting), she was already taking world cup medals and equalling the world record score. The best lady we have in this country in air rifle, who started at the legal age, still started seven years after Katerina.

I mean, funding you can just pour into a sport quickly, but how the hell do you make up for seven lost years of training? You can't!

irish_bob wrote: »

the bulk of our sporting talent in this country get hoovered up by the gaa

They don't really get hoovered up though; they just have nowhere else to go most of the time.

whats leftover ends up representing us at bejing , 2nd rate sports people
its not great achievement qualifying for the irish team when you consider how few play olympic sports

That's a load of bull****. Our target shooter in Beijing came in 7th in Athens and has medals from the European Championships and World Cups as well as a World Championships gold medal. And we have two or three more like him back here.
Second rate? The World Champions?

i have a cousin who was croquet champion in ireland for 2 yrs running , he was 1st of about 6 who play the thing

I must have missed it in the schedule, when's the olympic croquet on?

davyjose

irish_bob wrote: »

its obvious to me that a lot of irish people are perfectly happy to settle for mediocrity

But not you, you have done your best to compete in the olympics, right?

McGetty

A major Olympic Training Centre like the one in Finland mentioned on the previous page, with facilities for all sports (or, well, as many as possible) sounds like exactly what is needed. If you don't play rugby/golf/soccer/GAA there is almost nowhere in this country where you can get proper training. One big centre would stop the current situation with a bunch of tiny, disorganized sporting bodies representing the "minority" sports all squabbling over the same scraps from the Department of Sport's table and get them all together under one roof and allow them to lobby together for better facilities.

thirtyfoot

irish_bob wrote: »

, the gaa is all consuming in terms of talent
whats leftover ends up representing us at bejing , 2nd rate sports people
its not great achievement qualifying for the irish team when you consider how few play olympic sports

The GAA is great and does a great job but its a national organisation competing amongst itself. The only time we get to compare GAA internationally is in International Rules and thats a game where the Aussies take it half serious (its more about recruitment I'd say for them), play with a round ball and use a goalie for the first time and still whip the bejaysus out of us. The 2nd rate sports people you berate achieve international standards of maybe top 20 in the world and then compete against the best in the world. All other countries have lower numbers in the Olympic sports so GAA dominance is not an excuse - US sports is dominated by Baseball, basketball, NFL etc while soccer dominates in most countries. Every country has a talent drain. But olympic athletes chose their sports because they love them not for adulation from the masses or for money or for approval from the man on the barstool. If they didn't love their sport they wouldn't stick at all the sh*t that training 10-14 times week while living off the minimum wage will throw at them. They do it because its difficult.

You have started a good debate but you're lack of knowledge about the non "ball sports and pony races" activities in the country is letting you down. Ignorance is bliss and the people here who know what they are talking about (which I'd say is practically everyone arguing against you as they all seem to play sports) could at pains try to educate you a bit but I reckon as happens a lot every 4 years on the barstools of Ireland, it will fall on deaf ears. Have you ever tried to understand whats involved in someone who gets an olympic qualifying ?

Joe Punter in the public (which based on what I've read from you I'd categorize you as especially the croquet cousin comment) really doesn't understand whats involved. One of our current olympic athletes was doing a press gig before heading to Beijing maybe a month or two ago. A person at it heard she was heading to Beijing and asked "so like have you started your training and stuff". It was two months to go to Beijing. Yeah, I know, say no more.

Edit: I just re-read your post and it seems that you think that if you simply "make" the Irish team you go to the Olympics. Do you get the concept that they have to get a standard, which equates to maybe being the top 10 or 20 or 30 in the World?

Sparks

McGetty wrote: »

One big centre would stop the current situation with a bunch of tiny, disorganized sporting bodies representing the "minority" sports all squabbling over the same scraps from the Department of Sport's table and get them all together under one roof and allow them to lobby together for better facilities.

There are three main problems with that approach:

1. One big centre won't ever get built because it will need funding from the government and will be tied down with infighting over where its located, who gets credit and so on. Parish pump politics, the bane of sports in Ireland (usually if you want good facilities, you live in the constituency of the Minister for Sport). Abbotstown is a good try, but even that's had hassles. And that's without even thinking about who'd run it.
2. The "minority sports" NGBs will never come together for very good reasons. I can't think of one thing that target shooting and tae kwon do have in common other than both appearing on the olympic program. The needs are simply too different.
3. The problem isn't the squabbling over scraps; the problem is the scraps being scraps.

If minority sports weren't treated as supplicants so much and were funded properly (and the DoJ made allowances where necessary for shooting), and the capital grants scheme had its funding restored and then increased and minority sports given priority over the larger groups like the GAA (who can afford professional staff for chasing after grants, which minority sports cannot); then you might see a change for the better.

Of course, you'd still have the planning permission fun to deal with, but there's only so much of the elephant you can fit into a slice before it's not a slice anymore.

Nolanger

Fifty countries have won medals so far in China - it's getting embarrassing that Ireland has won nothing yet. Do Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Belarus, Mongolia, and Kyrgyzstan have better sporting facilities and funding than us?

thirtyfoot

Nolanger wrote: »

Fifty countries have won medals so far in China - it's getting embarrassing that Ireland has won nothing yet.?

NEWSFLASH: Its unlikely we will win a medal so you better get used to the red faces.

Nolanger wrote: »

it's getting embarrassing

Have you any suggestions as to what we can do so you aren't embarrassed in future years. Talk is cheap but your point is valid, these countries are better at sport than us but whats the point in moaning about it, if it concerns you try do something about it. There are lots of kids crying out for dedicated and talented coaches in many many sports.

Coaching, not structural infrastructure is the bigger problem in my opinion.

Sparks

Tingle wrote: »

Coaching, not structural infrastructure is the bigger problem in my opinion.

I think this may be sport-specific. I know that in target shooting and archery, there's sufficient coaching but a dearth of facilities.

irish_bob

davyjose wrote: »

But not you, you have done your best to compete in the olympics, right?

so you think because i havent competed in the olympics , i then cannot comment on irelands olympic athletes

ive never ran for public office either yet i doubt anyone would mind if i criticised brian cowan or pat rabitte
ive never performed open heart surgery yet ive often commented on the hse

its such a lazy defense , someone questions our nation at the olympics and the gormless repy is , did you ever compete

eunified61

Sparks wrote: »

It's a step, but only a first baby step, and with sports budgets being cut (the capital grant was cut down from €85 million to €50 million this year despite the governments prior commitments and promises to sports funding), it's hard to see it being followed through on by them with the necessary funding.


Ah, the smell of eugenics in the morning...


What a crock. If anything they should be encouraged, if not forced, to diversify and try a range of sports and pick what they want to do themselves - and if that means more than one sport, then fine. Right now we have barriers in the way of kids getting to sports they do well in; you're suggesting we erect more by making it an exceptionally significant choice and making them make it too early.

Your'e some moderator sparks how many sports would you say Michael Phelps or any other gold medal winner was involved in going to school, very few .The experts would call you misguided I,d call you,..... well I,d just say" jasus " My point is if you have few involved in many sports you have many involved in none. Was at a seminar once where a Canadian sports guru said he could take any child and in 10 years with something like 4 hours per day training he could bring them near world standard. Its not about the number of sports but its the total commitment to one

thirtyfoot

irish_bob wrote: »

its such a lazy defense , someone questions our nation at the olympics and the gormless repy is , did you ever compete

Very few of us will have competed at the Olympics so is that saying something;), pretty elite club.

Do you know whats required to qualify for the Olympics in lets Boxing or Athletics?

Tristram

We should be proud of our Irish athletes in Beijing who are performing at the top of their fields against the best opposition in the world. I was very impressed by Scott Evans and Chloe Magee, both of whom have enormous potential, potential they may even fulfil in 2012 (with training in Denmark;)). Eoin Rheinisch pulled off a great final round performance only to narrowly miss out on a medal. Our boxers are doing great. Our mens lightweight 4s are in the final at the weekend (I think?). Even if none of our Olympians win medals they are still doing something special to be there. Perhaps with properly funded elite-performance training facilities our medal tally would improve. The gulf between ourselves and the UK (in badminton at least) is huge. We are lightyears behind and the sad reality is that we must export our talented players if we want them to receive appropriate treatment. The Irish Sports Council seems to have at least equipped our boxers for Beijing, but we need more money spent on more sports.

irish_bob

Tingle wrote: »

Very few of us will have competed at the Olympics so is that saying something;), pretty elite club.

Do you know whats required to qualify for the Olympics in lets Boxing or Athletics?

based on how we do at each olympics , i think its pretty clear the standard here is not particulary high
maybe we should stop being so sensitive about the fact that we have a very poor record in the olympics , on a different note , we have a very good record in the world of horse racing ( a sport i have zero interest in ) or in golf

spinandscribble

metaoblivia wrote: »

I agree that having a small population isn't necessarily an excuse, but I disagree that not having the facilities isn't a factor. I'm a gymnastics fanatic, and when the UK, Australia and Canada started producing medal-worthy gymnasts a few years ago, I looked into the Irish programs to see why they always seem to show so poorly - if they even came at all - in international competitions. The biggest thing I saw was the lack of full time gyms. A lot of Irish gyms are held in school facilities, and are only open a few days a week for a scant few hours in the afternoon. By comparison, the top programs in the world have gyms that are open 7 days a week, from early in the morning to as late as 10pm. The top gymnasts in the world train anywhere from 25-45 hours a week, and most of them train on the best, most updated equipment. Only recently have some Irish gyms increased their hours and updated their equipment (which I think was a result of the recent British success in elite gymnastics), but it still isn't where it needs to be. Most still aren't full time, and lack basic training equipment like foam pits.
At the end of the day, it's not a lack of talent, in my opinion, but a lack of resources and funding.

couldn't agree more. Ireland has more of a history with acrobatic gymnastics. why? In m cynical opinion its because not as much equipment is needed!!! my own gymnastics club was closed down every summer!!! gmnastics isn't seasonal!!!! its about constantly pushing yourself.

thirtyfoot

irish_bob wrote: »

based on how we do at each olympics , i think its pretty clear the standard here is not particulary high

Do you know these standards, which are international standards by the way, eg, I am a boxer, what do I need to do to get to the Olympics? For the sake of the thread you started, finally answer a question straight.

I agree and think we are behind internationally, do you have any suggestion as to what we can do to change that?

Sparks

irish_bob wrote: »

so you think because i havent competed in the olympics , i then cannot comment on irelands olympic athletes

No, but if you don't know the details and haven't been involved in the sports, I do think your opinion counts for less because frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.

ive never performed open heart surgery yet ive often commented on the hse

The hse aren't doctors. The hse are administrators.

its such a lazy defense , someone questions our nation at the olympics and the gormless repy is , did you ever compete

Actually, you've gotten a lot of in-depth replies pointing out why we don't see as many medals as you do from Finland or other similar nations to ourselves. The difference is that those replies are talking about a broken system and you're blaming athletes. That's not fair to them, and that's what causes the defensive reactions you're complaining about.

eunified61 wrote: »

Your'e some moderator sparks

I'm not the moderator for this forum.

how many sports would you say Michael Phelps or any other gold medal winner was involved in going to school, very few

Would you say he was ordered to not try anything but swimming? What if he'd been forced to do just baseball or basketball or some other sport? You have to let kids try everything and find the sport they excel in. If they want to specialise after that, fine. But limiting them is a bad idea until then.

The experts would call you misguided

Remember I said I'd been to a few conferences on this? Well, I'm quoting the experts. They don't believe in forced specialisation like that.

Was at a seminar once where a Canadian sports guru said he could take any child and in 10 years with something like 4 hours per day training he could bring them near world standard. Its not about the number of sports but its the total commitment to one

And he was talking out his backside. If the child has no aptitude for a sport, and/or has no personal love for it, then you won't get 4 hours a day for ten years (and 4 hours a day is stupidly low for world class performance, by the way).

irish_bob wrote: »

based on how we do at each olympics , i think its pretty clear the standard here is not particulary high

Actually, it is - but it's being strangled by the problems the athletes have to overcome to get out of the country. They burn off too much energy overcoming stuff here to be able to overcome others over there (who've not had to overcome the same amount of stuff). That's a major - but fixable problem. The hassle is, the moment you hike taxes 1% to fix it (and at the same time ease up on the healthcare burden enormously), you'll hear people raise the roof crying at the injustice of it all.

maybe we should stop being so sensitive about the fact that we have a very poor record in the olympics

, on a different note , we have a very good record in the world of horse racing ( a sport i have zero interest in ) or in golf

Interesting. Good records in sports that have huge funding and huge numbers of facilities and lots of coaching skills and... well, do you see what I'm saying here?

eunified61

Hey Sparks you do love "ordered" and "forced" You're talkintg bull look at Tiger Phelps any tennis player any gymnast any brazilian soccer player very few world champions start specialising after 7 or 8 years of age
What are you a moderator in "Domination"????

ZiggyStardust

irish_bob wrote: »

based on how we do at each olympics , i think its pretty clear the standard here is not particulary high

Wow, this thread has really taken off tonight.

Irish Bob,
You have just proven that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. I cannot understand how people can argue with topics they know nothing about.
Just so you know, these standards are set by the International Olympic committee and they are the same for Martin Fagan as they are for Haile Gebreselassie for example.
And as Tingle says you need to be in the top percentile in the world to achieve these standards.
Athletes all over the country have busted their ass off for the past 4 years to get the qualifying times and for you to say they are second rate is an insult.