irelands appalling olympic record

Macha

I think this article sheds a bit of light on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7549000/7549969.stm

"The Sports Economics Research Group, based in Madrid, has produced new research aimed at increasing understanding of the factors that drive countries' performances."

Sparks

Seems like finding a curve that fits data to me, instead of a theory which can predict something or point out how to optimise a system for a particular goal.

Macha

Well I guess the theory will have to be tested so it will be interesting to compare at the end of the games.

thirdmantackle

why don't we try to enter the soccer at the olympics??

there are certain sports Ireland should target to win medals

shooting
horses
cycling
sailing
canoeing
triathalon
boxing
rowing
judo

some countries much larger than us have a very poor record at the olympics.

Tristram

http://www.databaseolympics.com/country/countrylist.htm

Not gonna dive into what is a rather messy topic, with regards to OP I would ask who thinks we are a great sporting nation in terms of international sports? Very few I would guess. On the other hand if one just looks at it from a local sports point of view (read GAA) we are a sporting nation.

Zaph

Full breakdown of Olympic medals by country here

When you look at the list and see that countries with much larger populations like Spain, Brazil, Argentina and Mexico aren't that far ahead of us on the table, I reckon we've probably done about as well as we could be expected to do.

irish_bob

Tristram wrote: »

http://www.databaseolympics.com/country/countrylist.htm

Not gonna dive into what is a rather messy topic, with regards to OP I would ask who thinks we are a great sporting nation in terms of international sports? Very few I would guess. On the other hand if one just looks at it from a local sports point of view (read GAA) we are a sporting nation.

we see ourselves as being a good sporting nation , that view is not borne out of reality if you look at the facts on the ground

Amz

What facts bob? You've been asked a few times to show facts and you've failed to do so.

thirdmantackle

I'd say if you compared us to somewhere like the US in terms of participation in sport we'd be way ahead

remember - you get no 'credit' or points for doing sport in school in Ireland. Unlike many, many other countries. and at the end of the day that is what most parents and kids see. PE is not a leaving cert subject.

also, 95% of primary schools have no indoor hall for sport. think about that one when you wonder why we do so bad at so many olympic sports...

Adam08

thirdmantackle wrote: »

why don't we try to enter the soccer at the olympics??

We do but we don't qualify but its kinda hard when you have a tit like Givens in charge.

Kaylie

Maybe it's just coincidence but the only Olympics events I've watched this year all had Irish competitors doing very well. Scott Evans in the badminton on Saturday morning played a great game, Andrew Bree came 2nd in his 200m race, and the boxers I watched won their fights. I've been very surprised with th eIrish this year so I don't understand the point of this thread.

Sparks

thirdmantackle wrote: »

remember - you get no 'credit' or points for doing sport in school in Ireland. Unlike many, many other countries. and at the end of the day that is what most parents and kids see. PE is not a leaving cert subject.

Oh, forget the subject/credit/points bit - PE in Ireland is not taught at all. There's no syllabus, and only in recent years has there even been a move towards training people to teach kids (the Irish Sports Council's FUNdamentals program).

Look, take for example the Korean Archers. Currently the best in the world by a country mile at archery. No-one else can touch them, everyone's hiring them as coaches (the US, the Australians, the lot). Only the Italians have any sort of mindshare challange going on there. They start training their kids for archery at age 9. And I mean actual technical training, not basic movement and coordination training. That's done for years before that point. And when they leave elementary school and go to high school, there's another program in place in the high school that catches them. And when they graduate, they either go to work or to college, and in both places there are programs to catch them there as well. Corporate teams and University teams, all competing on a national level like the clubs and county teams in the GAA.

Irish kids are lucky if they have a parking lot to kick a tennis ball around. If you're in some parts of Ireland, it's better - Kerry was well sorted for GAA football when I was a kid, for example - but in terms of a proper foundation and exposure to lots of different sport types so that everyone finds one that suits them? Forget it. I didn't find any sports that suited me until I hit college (target shooting, aikido, archery - none available at any school I ever went to). Some sports (again, like archery) have schools programs, and it's not a coincidence that those sports tend to do very well even internationally.

I've been to two or three conferences on "the future of sport" in the last ten years and nothing's changed in what they've been saying there - PE in this country is a joke and we need to teach it seriously, as an actual subject, with accredited people doing the training from day one. You need to catch kids early, train them in the basics, have programs in secondary school and college to keep them in, and a national program there for when they leave school. And it can't all be in the one kind of sport. Some kids are fast, some strong, some highly coordinated, some have great control - all of these lead to proficiencies in different sports. Miss out on one and a lot of kids miss out on sports.

And while I'm not saying it's as hollywood-simple as jocks vs nerds, there is that kind of mindset amongst kids who have no sporting avenue to pursue. If you don't want to get the elbow into the other kid's nose, you're probably not going to enjoy football, hurling or rugby; if you're not fast or tall, basketball won't be much fun; track events aren't much fun for the kids who aren't built like kenyans; and so on. I know I wasn't fast or aggressive so I didn't find a thing to try till way too late, but if you'd put an air rifle in my hands at age 12 I'd have already gone international by now, and the same if you'd given me a bow.

And forget the medals for a moment - sports not only acts to develop a child socially, but it's vital in trying to prevent obesity and the massive drag that puts on healthcare. How much do we spend every year on healthcare for folks whose health wouldn't be in trouble if they even played a round of golf (or more accurately went for a walk) once a week? Sport is the stitch in time for the healthcare system.

I'd say PE needs a shake-up, but face it - there's nothing there to shake right now

ZiggyStardust

Kaylie wrote: »

so I don't understand the point of this thread.

Hear hear....

Sparks

so I don't understand the point of this thread.

I've been thinking that problems with the system are utterly and totally and completely unrelated to the athletes.
The point, as I understood it, was that the athletes have achieved what they have in spite of the structures we have for sport in Ireland, not thanks to those structures.

Amz

I'd have to agree with that Sparks.

Irish_bob really failed to back up any of his statements here.

mike65

I just looked at that list and picked out 4 countries of 4/5 million people which are vaguely comparable.

Ireland

Gold: 8
Silver: 7
Bronze: 8

Finland

Gold: 102
Silver: 84
Bronze: 115

Denmark

Gold: 42
Silver: 68
Bronze: 68

New Zealand

Gold: 33
Silver: 14
Bronze: 30

I guess you reap what you sow. Finland have about 100 winter medals too.

Mike.

Sparks

Finland and Ireland are poles apart in how they approach sport. And they tend to invest heavily - there are four main sports training centres there. I spent a week at a training camp in one in kuortane last november. Their athletes get flats there to live for months at a time while training. They had facilities for everything there in one single complex - swimming, golf, shooting, archery, running, weightlifting, the lot. The formula one teams train there. They have recovery centres, water therapy and physiotherapy facilities, pretty much everything for every sport. They have trained personnel there as well - coaches, fitness experts, physiotherapists, doctors, the lot. And classrooms, because you don't just learn a sport by running about, you learn by doing video analysis, learning theory, and a range of other things done in a classroom. Nutrition and diet is catered to - in one week, I never saw chocolate or overly processed foods, but also never missed dessert or had a meal I didn't like. And when you're walking to your room at night (which has a small sauna in the room to help unwind muscles, another small detail you tend to notice), the slogan on the walls as decoration is Cortius, Altius, Fortius, and that reflects the mindset perfectly. And there are four of these centres in the country. And they're just the main centres; they're the pinnacle allright, but there's a lot more in the way of structures below them.

They have focus. And they've invested in it.


Compare that to us and you see why the medal counts are so different.

ZiggyStardust

Wow, sounds amazing.

And someone on here (I think his name is Bob) thinks it's nothing to do with facilites. Of course not Bob

thirdmantackle

so teaching PE properly at school will solve a lot of the problems?

most schools don't even have a hall

Sparks

Well, they'll have to have one built to teach PE properly. Capital costs are a part of teaching it properly. So yes, basicly.

Nolanger

After every Olympics there's a big fuss made about our appalling performance - and nothing happens. In 2012 we'll still be rubbish.
The only Irish with a hope of winning are the boxers because they actually have the will and determination to do it.
Ireland is all about mediocrity - not just in sports. Kids are encouraged to fit in, to do team sports, and avoid achieving excellence on their own terms.

thirtyfoot

Nolanger wrote: »

The only Irish with a hope of winning are the boxers because they actually have the will and determination to do it.
.

Are you a wum? If not, ignorance is bliss and there is unfortunately no talking to you on your comfy couch or bar stool. Anyone who plays or knows sports will know what nonsense your statement is, thats assuming you aren't a wum, which I assume you are. Are you? Please say you are because I really hope someone in a sports forum really doesn't believe that of an Olymp ian. Actually one way to change your mind would have you live and observe the life of a rower for a week, no will and determination, thats hilarious:D:D:D

By the way, the boxers would probably tell you how crazy that statement is if they met you:)

Edit: Having said that, the boxers are probably our best chance of a medal.

Amz

For your sake Tingle I hope you're not using "wum" to refer to women. That would not be good for you.

RuggieBear

wind up merchant.

Amz

That's alright, I've seen it used for wum - Woman before. Was just making sure I wish people would use capitalisations for TLAs, it would make life easier.

Macha

amz-thanks 4 de incredibly sexist post.so basically you cannot bear the thought of a man with the same level of knowledge of sport as a 'wum'.nice

Amz

What?

Please use your entire keyboard for writing posts, there's no character limit.

eunified61

referring to my thread "developing decision makers in sport" Coaching Ireland and Coaching strategy for Ireland are being launched in DCU in September. It is probably a step forward in what is being talked about.
But I do think that as well as looking at population you must consider climate, history etc. It would be interesting to compare us to New Zealand for example. Whether we like it or not race plays a part, Africans are generally more agile than Europeans, but it wont be too long before we have a few Afro Celt athletes.
As regards schools I believe that students should be limited to One outdoor team sport one athletic event and one indoor sport or some such arrangement (subject for a thread).Schools are the biggest culprits when it comes to early burn out ( for the glory of the school). Once knew an all rounder , school had him on Football hurling rugby soccer basketball and athletics teams he's 18 now bad ankles
AS to the GAA the champions league should be HURLING

thirtyfoot

Amz wrote: »

For your sake Tingle I hope you're not using "wum" to refer to women. That would not be good for you.

Yes I meant WUM, not "wum". I'm not a "wum" but my coach is a "wum" and if she thought that I thought a "wum" couldn't give an opinion on sport she'd whup my ass in training as she is the biggest BAMF coach I know. All for the "wum" in sport.

eunified61

thirdmantackle wrote: »

so teaching PE properly at school will solve a lot of the problems?

most schools don't even have a hall

Interesting point -a man from Estonia(I think) got involved with a rival club maybe 8 years ago ,he was surprised at the poor facilities in schools ,but he also told me about queuing for food .A balanced approach is important. The promotion of sport often overshadows play in schools