irelands appalling olympic record

irish_bob

i would like to perhaps start a debate about why we have such a pittifull record at the olympics
some people seem to be content to believe that because we have a small population of just over 4 million that that is enough of an excuse for our lack of success at the games , it isnt , nor is the lame excuse that we dont have the facilities to groom future potential champions
the bahammas has a population of less than a half a million people and while ive never been there , i know for a fact that its a lot poorer country than ireland and thus surely havent any better facilities yet they usually win about 10 medals at every games
there are countries in africa who cant feed themselves so they definatly cant afford sports stadiums or training grounds yet they win way more medals than we do
new zealand is a country with an almost indentical size population to ireland yet they have won nearly 50 medals in there olympic history , ireland has won about a fifth of that in over 100 yrs

i think its time the myth that we are a talented sporting nation is blown out of the water , while i salute the effort that irish athletes make in preparing for the games , lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are anything but brutal when it come to the olympics

Amz

Well when you consider the level of support Irish athletics gets compared to GAA/Rugby/Soccer you can see why so few athletes go on to pursue athletics at a serious level. Places like the Bahamas don't have the pull of other sports like we have here, so our pool of talent is divided amongst our various sports. David Gillick for example played GAA at a high level, yet chose athletics, imagine how many guys and girls are playing other sports because there's more instant gratification, funding, general support in place for those sports.

I'm just taking athletics as an example, but I feel it's a good one.

What sports do you participate in bob? Or what were you involved in?

metaoblivia

irish_bob wrote: »

i would like to perhaps start a debate about why we have such a pittifull record at the olympics
some people seem to be content to believe that because we have a small population of just over 4 million that that is enough of an excuse for our lack of success at the games , it isnt , nor is the lame excuse that we dont have the facilities to groom future potential champions

I agree that having a small population isn't necessarily an excuse, but I disagree that not having the facilities isn't a factor. I'm a gymnastics fanatic, and when the UK, Australia and Canada started producing medal-worthy gymnasts a few years ago, I looked into the Irish programs to see why they always seem to show so poorly - if they even came at all - in international competitions. The biggest thing I saw was the lack of full time gyms. A lot of Irish gyms are held in school facilities, and are only open a few days a week for a scant few hours in the afternoon. By comparison, the top programs in the world have gyms that are open 7 days a week, from early in the morning to as late as 10pm. The top gymnasts in the world train anywhere from 25-45 hours a week, and most of them train on the best, most updated equipment. Only recently have some Irish gyms increased their hours and updated their equipment (which I think was a result of the recent British success in elite gymnastics), but it still isn't where it needs to be. Most still aren't full time, and lack basic training equipment like foam pits.
At the end of the day, it's not a lack of talent, in my opinion, but a lack of resources and funding.

irish_bob

Amz wrote: »

Well when you consider the level of support Irish athletics gets compared to GAA/Rugby/Soccer you can see why so few athletes go on to pursue athletics at a serious level. Places like the Bahamas don't have the pull of other sports like we have here, so our pool of talent is divided amongst our various sports. David Gillick for example played GAA at a high level, yet chose athletics, imagine how many guys and girls are playing other sports because there's more instant gratification, funding, general support in place for those sports.

I'm just taking athletics as an example, but I feel it's a good one.

What sports do you participate in bob? Or what were you involved in?

dont excuse our wretched olympic performances by getting personal with the op
for your info , i used to partake in sports but i had a work related accident and can barely run now and cant lift anything much heavier than a kettle of water without feeling pain

togster

Jesus no need to get so touchy bob.

Amz is right. We have a problem attracting/keeping young athletes in athletics. Take for example the showjumping team/eventing team. They always put in a good performance (nearly!). I think it is because the sport is already at a professional level in ireland and many riders do compete well at non olympic international level.

ZiggyStardust

Not sure where you're coming from Bob, but totally agree with the others.
Our lack of success is a mix between lack of facilities, the GAA (sorry GAA fans), sports education including PE at school and as AMZ said lack of instant gratification. There was a program on last night called Sprint and Craig Pickering was saying that if he was at the same level in football he'd be on 70K a week. The said same level in Golf, Tennis, or even snooker he'd make a nice living.

If you look at schools all around the country, you'll nearly always see a basketball court (with the net missing of course) beside the school. You'd think we'd have an Olympic basketball team by now. We have these because they are propably the cheapest court to build. The only thing I see people use the basketball courts for is playing football.

GAA have a big influence in Irish schools. Every school (With the exception of rugby schools) play and promote GAA. I remember when I asked to go the the South Leinster schools CC I was told that I just wanted a day off school. My Dad ended up driving me.

And as for facilities, they are third world. No matter what the sport we have probably the worst facilities in the western world. Beside scholarship athletes, How many of our athletes have to go abroad to train. Gillick packed his bag last summer to go to London, Heffernan, O'sullivan all trained abroad. O'Keefe was finding it difficult for a place to throw her hammer.

Would love to to see us get a few medals, but I think it will be a successful olympics if we have a few finalists and some PB's.
Wish them all the best of luck.

robinph

Ireland should really have started putting in a huge effort with promoting and funding more Olyimpic sports two years ago when they annonced that the closest there will ever be to a home games is due in 2012.

I'm surprised there are not more Irish athletes coming out of various UK universities though that do have the excellent sports facilities, thinking the likes of Loughborough.

irish_bob

im sorry but the no facilities lark doesnt wash , we have to have better facilties than the bahammas or any african country bar south africa

just cause we havent facilties like australia ( uk doesnt either ) doesnt mean we can be ok about winning no medals at most olympics

we won none in 2004 , none in 1996 and none in 1988 , i know john treacy won silver in 1984 but i dont remember that one

robinph

But the like of the Bahamas are only focusing on one particular set of events, sprint running, which only needs very relatively limited facilities and African countries other than SA are more often seen doing well in the distance running which needs even less.

Something that I saw in the Colin Jackson programme on BBC recently about when they were trying to figure out if it was genetics that was causing the majority of the top 20 sprinters to come from Jamacia was when they showed it had absolutely nothing to do with that at all. It was mostly down to the schools and upwards althetic events getting huge support and then national coaches going round to actually find the someway decent kids at an early age to give them the decent training. Doesn't actually take a whole lot of money, just needs someone to have the desire.

ZiggyStardust

irish_bob wrote: »

im sorry but the no facilities lark doesnt wash , we have to have better facilties than the bahammas or any african country bar south africa

just cause we havent facilties like australia ( uk doesnt either ) doesnt mean we can be ok about winning no medals at most olympics

we won none in 2004 , none in 1996 and none in 1988 , i know john treacy won silver in 1984 but i dont remember that one

You mention the bahamas and the african countries. Well as robinph was saying, carribians rely on sprints and east africans rely on middle/long distance running. No facilities required but did you know all finalists in the 100m since 1984 were black of carribean or west african descent, and the same goes for 10,000. Antibo(1988) was the last non african to medal in this event.

As for the UK, besides that their facilities ARE in fact 100 times better than ours, their population is over 60 million. Ours is just over 4 million.

And just as a footnote, we have won 20 medals to bahamas 8.

Iknow the hospitals and schools need funding, but so too does sport.

Amz

From what I can see bob has some chip on his shoulder, he has ignored almost all of the points people have made to him and seems intent on focusing on the Bahamas and is also intent on generalising when he talks about Africa as a whole.

He hasn't backed up what he's said with any statistics or facts, it took ZiggyStardust to do that to cover one of bob's examples and it showed that one of bob's claims was in fact unsubstantiated.

bob please try and make a more coherent argument to back up what you're saying as you come across as ill informed and just angry. Please try and address the points people make to you, rather than repeating your initial statements.

irish_bob

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

You mention the bahamas and the african countries. Well as robinph was saying, carribians rely on sprints and east africans rely on middle/long distance running. No facilities required but did you know all finalists in the 100m since 1984 were black of carribean or west african descent, and the same goes for 10,000. Antibo(1988) was the last non african to medal in this event.

As for the UK, besides that their facilities ARE in fact 100 times better than ours, their population is over 60 million. Ours is just over 4 million.

And just as a footnote, we have won 20 medals to bahamas 8.

Iknow the hospitals and schools need funding, but so too does sport.

the bahammas won 10 medals at the last olympics alone

weve won 20 since 1896

im done commenting on this topic , its obvious to me that a lot of irish people are perfectly happy to settle for mediocrity

Amz

irish_bob wrote: »

the bahammas won 10 medals at the last olympics alone

weve won 20 since 1896

im done commenting on this topic , its obvious to me that a lot of irish people are perfectly happy to settle for mediocrity

Bob, you're becoming quite tedious, yet again you've picked out certain aspects of ONE post, replied to them and ignored everyone else. You picked up on 2 lines at the end of my first reply and chose to imply that I was getting in a dig. Ignoring everything else in my post.

You've suggested absolutely nothing to improve things, you've posted the names of a few countries and said why aren't we as good. You've given no explanation yourself as to why you think we don't achieve at Olympic games.

I sincerely hope this isn't your attitude to everything you attempt to debate. It smacks of throwing your toys out of the pram when everyone doesn't agree with you.

I participated in at least 20 sports over the years, ranging from rugby to athletics. I was never asked if I thought I'd like to be a sprinter or a cross country runner, I was forced to participate in cross country, I was only ever a mediocre cross country runner. Now in my mid twenties I discover I have a talent for sprinting, one that had it been looked out for when I was younger, could have been trained and honed to make me a high level sprinter, as it is now I have to use that particular talent for speed in another sport.

Irish kids aren't given the sporting opportunities other nations' children are. When you look at the Bahamas as it seems you're fond of doing, what other sports are they known for other than sprinting?

Look at the likes of New Zealand, similar population to Ireland, yet like us they rarely feature at Olympic Games. Like us they have other sports competing for, on the grand scheme of things, a very small pool of potential athletes.

Just think back to primary school, you probably did a bit of running around, some basketball and maybe a bit of soccer/gaelic football, it probably got even worse in secondary school. Most of us probably haven't the opportunity to try many sports until we reach university, I know this was the case with me, because they just were not available prior to that.

Kids in the Bahamas are groomed for top level sprinting from an incredibly young age. Irish kids are not. There are only now, in the late noughties, programs being put in place to scout for talented young athletes in any sport.

ZiggyStardust

irish_bob wrote: »

the bahammas won 10 medals at the last olympics alone

weve won 20 since 1896

im done commenting on this topic , its obvious to me that a lot of irish people are perfectly happy to settle for mediocrity

Bob, Bob, Bob. Seriously!!!!!
Where are you getting your info from. The Bahamas won 2 medals at the last olympics. Tonique Williams Darling in the 400m and Debbie Ferguson in the 200m. They have won a total of 8 medals in the 112 year history of the games.
So tell me where the Bahamas won their other medals in Athens?

It appears to me that you have a sever attitude problem and are slightly ignornant about certain topics.

tHE vAGGABOND

Could we please keep things civil, no need for things to get nasty

robinph

There are plenty of countries with worse facilites than Ireland has access to that manage to do a lot better in certain events. Ireland needs to focus it's attention on the particular atheletes that do have the potential though. Any decent level Olympic athletes seems to have just been luck on Irelands part where the individual has got themselves to that level with very little external support or funding, or there are a couple that have changed nationalities as well I think.

Ireland punches above it's weight in soccer, relative to the standard of national league, because all the half way decent players get sent abroad to ply their trade and improve. Rugby is one of the few sports where it's mostly home grown and developed talent from Ireland that can compete at a high level internationally.

metaoblivia

Bob, it sounds like you don't know very much about what it takes to produce elite athletes. A person can have all of the athletic potential in the world, but if it goes unrecognized, that potential will fall by the wayside.
As others have said, it's an issue of having a system in place that can identify talent at a young age and then having the funding and resources to cultivate that talent. Smaller countries, like the Bahamas, can't afford to have a system in place for every sport, so they choose one or two. Larger countries, like China or the US, have the resources to fund many sports and so they do.
And I'll echo robinph's comment about Ireland increasing their promotion and funding efforts with 2012 coming up. I know the UK has.

robinph

metaoblivia wrote: »

And I'll echo robinph's comment about Ireland increasing their promotion and funding efforts with 2012 coming up. I know the UK has.

I actually think they are seriously missing a trick with the lack of anything 2012 related going on already. What with all the UK TV that gets watched here they don't really need to keep advertising about it as much as the UK is doing that for us already for free so everyone knows that it's happening. They should have some government, or even lottery, funding up for grabs or something though directed at any halfway decent athletes.

Nolanger

In the last Olympics Georgia won 4 medals, New Zealand won 5, and Norway won 6 - all have same population size as us.
We won zilch because we're crap at sports.
There too much emphasis on team sports here - culchie GAA teams beating the crap out of each other.
Hope we win something this month but not expecting much.

titan18

Its kinda easy to understand why we dont win.The GAA gets pretty much all of the funding in the country.Most children play GAA,rugby or soccer in this country.Every other sport is left alone.We have the best white sprinter in the worlr,Hession,so its not down to a lack of talent in the country.

Its just we want to play our won sport,everyone who wins in the sprints are of West African origin.The poor African countries you were on about like Kenya and Ethiopia are high altitudes giving their athletes a huge advantage.

robinph

Another 4 years and there will be plenty of Irish passport holding people of African origin, bet nothing is done between now and then though to spot any of that talent in the schools and develop it though.

ZiggyStardust

Nolanger wrote: »

We won zilch because we're crap at sports. That is why we're fu**ed at tomorrow's Olympics.QUOTE]

Come on Nolan, I wouldn't say we are crap at sports. There is loads of potential out there.
If an irish athlete makes a semi final, they are in the top 16 in the world.

What sport do you do?

Good luck to all the Irish from today on. Can't wait to get out of work and leg it home to watch.
Bring it on.

irish_bob

titan18 wrote: »

Its kinda easy to understand why we dont win.The GAA gets pretty much all of the funding in the country.Most children play GAA,rugby or soccer in this country.Every other sport is left alone.We have the best white sprinter in the worlr,Hession,so its not down to a lack of talent in the country.

Its just we want to play our won sport,everyone who wins in the sprints are of West African origin.The poor African countries you were on about like Kenya and Ethiopia are high altitudes giving their athletes a huge advantage.

in terms of underage level , i can tell you that outside the pale , there is little rugby played apart from in limerick or cork and its only really in cork city , you can play soccer in most parishes but to say it takes a back seat to gaa is an understatement

thirtyfoot

irish_bob wrote: »

i think its time the myth that we are a talented sporting nation is blown out of the water , while i salute the effort that irish athletes make in preparing for the games , lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are anything but brutal when it come to the olympics

I think many people in Ireland have this opinion or atitude when it comes to global sports. I think its this very attitude that is a reason why we are not as successfull as you think we should be. Negative, negative, negative. Its not that people who argue against you are naive, they just have a better understanding of what's required to be an sportsperson which is why Amz's question on what sports you play was very relevant. When you train/commit/play sports you realise what is required and many times its not for glory or medals or being in front of 80,000 people that drives you its something else. Armchair punditary is great and its what sport is about, but this style of armchair punditary used to wreck my head but now I try and just ignore it (which I have failed at here again).

Doubs

Speaking of facilities, I'm in Melbourne at the moment -went to do a tour of the MCG there last week. They used the stadium for the Commonwealth games not so long ago and once it was over apparently they couldn't GIVE the track away! Nobody wanted it so it ended up getting scrapped, a full Olympic sized track that was only used 2/3 times.

Myself and one of the lads couldn't believe it, if that was home you could be sure at the very least some farmer would take and throw it down on an acre to make a few bob!

Nolanger

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Nolanger wrote: »

We won zilch because we're crap at sports. That is why we're fu**ed at tomorrow's Olympics.QUOTE]

Come on Nolan, I wouldn't say we are crap at sports. There is loads of potential out there.
If an irish athlete makes a semi final, they are in the top 16 in the world.

What sport do you do?

I do walking.
Agree there's plenty of potential out there but developing the potential is the problem.
Now that practically every primary school teacher is female how are young kids supposed to be brought into, trained and encouraged in non-team sports?

sock puppet

Nolanger wrote: »

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

I do walking.
Agree there's plenty of potential out there but developing the potential is the problem.
Now that practically every primary school teacher is female how are young kids supposed to be brought into, trained and encouraged in non-team sports?

How on earth would that make the slightest difference?

Macha

Nolanger wrote: »

Now that practically every primary school teacher is female how are young kids supposed to be brought into, trained and encouraged in non-team sports?

Yeah BIG -1 on the sexist comment.

I know a few people who made it to the Olympics and competed for Ireland. They basically saw nor heard nothing from the sporting authorities until they had qualified, then they were all over them like a rash, forcing them to wear their crap quality official gear & throwing a few pennies their way.

A friend of mine competed in Salt Lake & was fully planning on going to Turin. Her parents sent the Olympic Council of Ireland a letter & details of their 4-year training plan & the funding they were hoping for. The OCI didn't even bother to send a response.

F**king **** ALL of them. They'll go to the games alright & stand there & smile, shake hands & make empty promises but as soon as the camera crews go home it's show over.

Just have a listen to the budget when it comes out in December and hear where all the money goes to. Actually the best thing is to listen to the guys on Off the Ball on Newstalk discuss it. It's the same oul sh1te every year. Most of the money goes to the horses - a sports industry that is MADE of money??

It's completely and utterly pathetic.

sock puppet

taconnol wrote: »

Yeah BIG -1 on the sexist comment.

I know a few people who made it to the Olympics and competed for Ireland. They basically saw nor heard nothing from the sporting authorities until they had qualified, then they were all over them like a rash, forcing them to wear their crap quality official gear & throwing a few pennies their way.

A friend of mine competed in Salt Lake & was fully planning on going to Turin. Her parents sent the Olympic Council of Ireland a letter & details of their 4-year training plan & the funding they were hoping for. The OCI didn't even bother to send a response.

F**king **** ALL of them. They'll go to the games alright & stand there & smile, shake hands & make empty promises but as soon as the camera crews go home it's show over.

Just have a listen to the budget when it comes out in December and hear where all the money goes to. Actually the best thing is to listen to the guys on Off the Ball on Newstalk discuss it. It's the same oul sh1te every year. Most of the money goes to the horses - a sports industry that is MADE of money??

It's completely and utterly pathetic.

Yeah funding for sports here is pretty bad. Out of interest might I ask what sport she was competing in? I know in swimming people who are good and are in with a chance of qualification get grants from Swim Ireland. Its about a grand. I know its not much but it pays for club fees and expenses like away competitions. Could your friend not have applied to her own sporting organisation? Although I think it's ridiculous that an international athlete was denied any form of funding.

Sparks

It's not just how much funding, it's where to. Look, Derek Burnett is our best shot ('scuse the pun) at an Olympic medal this year according to the Irish Sports Council and Olympic Council of Ireland. How many here knew his name or what he did before a month ago?

I'm guessing very, very few. "Minority" sports like clay pigeon shooting don't get any kind of recognition in this country. They're underfunded, under resourced, are treated almost as supplicants at the administration level by the councils and are ignored, lambasted or sidelined by the media.

Instead, we concentrate on trying to go up against other nations in sports which they pour money into, with full coaching programs, residential athletics programs, and so on. We choose to compete where we have less chance of winning. The Irish clay pigeon team went to Lathi in 2002 and won the gold medal in the World Championships. With no funding. They got some after that - spread out over a few years, they got about half what the GAA got this year alone.

Think that one through. Here's a team that's just beaten the best of everyone the world had to offer in an Olympic sport, and they get less than one year's budget for the GAA (spread over several years) to try to go for an Olympic medal and develop the sport for the next wave of shooters coming up behind the current ones. Hell, they didn't even get coverage on the news.

What it boils down to is this - we can't realistically hope to win lots of medals in Athletics or pretty much any other "major" sport. But we have serious potential in the "minority" sports area. Perhaps it's time to capitalise on that and box clever, instead of just continually trying to compete outside our weight class and hope to get lucky.

Macha

sock puppet wrote: »

Yeah funding for sports here is pretty bad. Out of interest might I ask what sport she was competing in? I know in swimming people who are good and are in with a chance of qualification get grants from Swim Ireland. Its about a grand. I know its not much but it pays for club fees and expenses like away competitions. Could your friend not have applied to her own sporting organisation? Although I think it's ridiculous that an international athlete was denied any form of funding.

She was a skier. Her parents basically have not gone on holiday for the past 18 years, as they trained her & are now training her sister (oh same story with the sister). THe Irish skiing organisations aren't really that big..

Also, when she was in Salt Lake, she had to have a MRI scan. These are quite expensive, costing around €2000 each. Anyway, when she asked the OCI for her funding money, they said that it had all been spent on the scan! She got NOTHING.

I have to say, Sparks, your point about where we put our funding is spot on. Another friend of mine did skeleton in Turin. With almost zero help from the government and a sliced achilles heel, he managed to come 20th in Turin, which I think was good when you consider that he had to qualify himself before he got any money or support. Let's compare this to Kristan Bromley. His team actually took water fromm Turin, brought it back to the UK & FROZE it to see what type of ice it would make!!! There is just no f**king comparison.

PLUS the only reason Ireland even had a skeleton development squad was because Cliften came 4th in Salt Lake and HE did that with all his own money!! Now the IOC has decided that skeleton isn't really a medal hope for Ireland so where is all the money going for Vancouver? CURLING!! Makes me sick. They just pick athletes up & drop them when they lose the scent of a medal.

Macha

I think this article sheds a bit of light on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7549000/7549969.stm

"The Sports Economics Research Group, based in Madrid, has produced new research aimed at increasing understanding of the factors that drive countries' performances."

Sparks

Seems like finding a curve that fits data to me, instead of a theory which can predict something or point out how to optimise a system for a particular goal.

Macha

Well I guess the theory will have to be tested so it will be interesting to compare at the end of the games.

thirdmantackle

why don't we try to enter the soccer at the olympics??

there are certain sports Ireland should target to win medals

shooting
horses
cycling
sailing
canoeing
triathalon
boxing
rowing
judo

some countries much larger than us have a very poor record at the olympics.

Tristram

http://www.databaseolympics.com/country/countrylist.htm

Not gonna dive into what is a rather messy topic, with regards to OP I would ask who thinks we are a great sporting nation in terms of international sports? Very few I would guess. On the other hand if one just looks at it from a local sports point of view (read GAA) we are a sporting nation.

Zaph

Full breakdown of Olympic medals by country here

When you look at the list and see that countries with much larger populations like Spain, Brazil, Argentina and Mexico aren't that far ahead of us on the table, I reckon we've probably done about as well as we could be expected to do.

irish_bob

Tristram wrote: »

http://www.databaseolympics.com/country/countrylist.htm

Not gonna dive into what is a rather messy topic, with regards to OP I would ask who thinks we are a great sporting nation in terms of international sports? Very few I would guess. On the other hand if one just looks at it from a local sports point of view (read GAA) we are a sporting nation.

we see ourselves as being a good sporting nation , that view is not borne out of reality if you look at the facts on the ground

Amz

What facts bob? You've been asked a few times to show facts and you've failed to do so.

thirdmantackle

I'd say if you compared us to somewhere like the US in terms of participation in sport we'd be way ahead

remember - you get no 'credit' or points for doing sport in school in Ireland. Unlike many, many other countries. and at the end of the day that is what most parents and kids see. PE is not a leaving cert subject.

also, 95% of primary schools have no indoor hall for sport. think about that one when you wonder why we do so bad at so many olympic sports...

Adam08

thirdmantackle wrote: »

why don't we try to enter the soccer at the olympics??

We do but we don't qualify but its kinda hard when you have a tit like Givens in charge.

Kaylie

Maybe it's just coincidence but the only Olympics events I've watched this year all had Irish competitors doing very well. Scott Evans in the badminton on Saturday morning played a great game, Andrew Bree came 2nd in his 200m race, and the boxers I watched won their fights. I've been very surprised with th eIrish this year so I don't understand the point of this thread.

Sparks

thirdmantackle wrote: »

remember - you get no 'credit' or points for doing sport in school in Ireland. Unlike many, many other countries. and at the end of the day that is what most parents and kids see. PE is not a leaving cert subject.

Oh, forget the subject/credit/points bit - PE in Ireland is not taught at all. There's no syllabus, and only in recent years has there even been a move towards training people to teach kids (the Irish Sports Council's FUNdamentals program).

Look, take for example the Korean Archers. Currently the best in the world by a country mile at archery. No-one else can touch them, everyone's hiring them as coaches (the US, the Australians, the lot). Only the Italians have any sort of mindshare challange going on there. They start training their kids for archery at age 9. And I mean actual technical training, not basic movement and coordination training. That's done for years before that point. And when they leave elementary school and go to high school, there's another program in place in the high school that catches them. And when they graduate, they either go to work or to college, and in both places there are programs to catch them there as well. Corporate teams and University teams, all competing on a national level like the clubs and county teams in the GAA.

Irish kids are lucky if they have a parking lot to kick a tennis ball around. If you're in some parts of Ireland, it's better - Kerry was well sorted for GAA football when I was a kid, for example - but in terms of a proper foundation and exposure to lots of different sport types so that everyone finds one that suits them? Forget it. I didn't find any sports that suited me until I hit college (target shooting, aikido, archery - none available at any school I ever went to). Some sports (again, like archery) have schools programs, and it's not a coincidence that those sports tend to do very well even internationally.

I've been to two or three conferences on "the future of sport" in the last ten years and nothing's changed in what they've been saying there - PE in this country is a joke and we need to teach it seriously, as an actual subject, with accredited people doing the training from day one. You need to catch kids early, train them in the basics, have programs in secondary school and college to keep them in, and a national program there for when they leave school. And it can't all be in the one kind of sport. Some kids are fast, some strong, some highly coordinated, some have great control - all of these lead to proficiencies in different sports. Miss out on one and a lot of kids miss out on sports.

And while I'm not saying it's as hollywood-simple as jocks vs nerds, there is that kind of mindset amongst kids who have no sporting avenue to pursue. If you don't want to get the elbow into the other kid's nose, you're probably not going to enjoy football, hurling or rugby; if you're not fast or tall, basketball won't be much fun; track events aren't much fun for the kids who aren't built like kenyans; and so on. I know I wasn't fast or aggressive so I didn't find a thing to try till way too late, but if you'd put an air rifle in my hands at age 12 I'd have already gone international by now, and the same if you'd given me a bow.

And forget the medals for a moment - sports not only acts to develop a child socially, but it's vital in trying to prevent obesity and the massive drag that puts on healthcare. How much do we spend every year on healthcare for folks whose health wouldn't be in trouble if they even played a round of golf (or more accurately went for a walk) once a week? Sport is the stitch in time for the healthcare system.

I'd say PE needs a shake-up, but face it - there's nothing there to shake right now

ZiggyStardust

Kaylie wrote: »

so I don't understand the point of this thread.

Hear hear....

Sparks

so I don't understand the point of this thread.

I've been thinking that problems with the system are utterly and totally and completely unrelated to the athletes.
The point, as I understood it, was that the athletes have achieved what they have in spite of the structures we have for sport in Ireland, not thanks to those structures.

Amz

I'd have to agree with that Sparks.

Irish_bob really failed to back up any of his statements here.

mike65

I just looked at that list and picked out 4 countries of 4/5 million people which are vaguely comparable.

Ireland

Gold: 8
Silver: 7
Bronze: 8

Finland

Gold: 102
Silver: 84
Bronze: 115

Denmark

Gold: 42
Silver: 68
Bronze: 68

New Zealand

Gold: 33
Silver: 14
Bronze: 30

I guess you reap what you sow. Finland have about 100 winter medals too.

Mike.

Sparks

Finland and Ireland are poles apart in how they approach sport. And they tend to invest heavily - there are four main sports training centres there. I spent a week at a training camp in one in kuortane last november. Their athletes get flats there to live for months at a time while training. They had facilities for everything there in one single complex - swimming, golf, shooting, archery, running, weightlifting, the lot. The formula one teams train there. They have recovery centres, water therapy and physiotherapy facilities, pretty much everything for every sport. They have trained personnel there as well - coaches, fitness experts, physiotherapists, doctors, the lot. And classrooms, because you don't just learn a sport by running about, you learn by doing video analysis, learning theory, and a range of other things done in a classroom. Nutrition and diet is catered to - in one week, I never saw chocolate or overly processed foods, but also never missed dessert or had a meal I didn't like. And when you're walking to your room at night (which has a small sauna in the room to help unwind muscles, another small detail you tend to notice), the slogan on the walls as decoration is Cortius, Altius, Fortius, and that reflects the mindset perfectly. And there are four of these centres in the country. And they're just the main centres; they're the pinnacle allright, but there's a lot more in the way of structures below them.

They have focus. And they've invested in it.


Compare that to us and you see why the medal counts are so different.

ZiggyStardust

Wow, sounds amazing.

And someone on here (I think his name is Bob) thinks it's nothing to do with facilites. Of course not Bob

thirdmantackle

so teaching PE properly at school will solve a lot of the problems?

most schools don't even have a hall

Sparks

Well, they'll have to have one built to teach PE properly. Capital costs are a part of teaching it properly. So yes, basicly.