Only One National Road Project to Start in 2009

Sponge Bob

That's the Galway Outer Bypass if the EU Commission lets it go ahead as designed . So the NRA has told the Galway Advertiser this week .

http://www.galwayadvertiser.ie/content/index.php?aid=13033

The outer bypass is the only project in the National Road Authority’s budget that is programmed to commence in 2009.

No N25 N24 N17 N15 N21 or N22 Projects ( Jackie Healy Rae is retiring after all and could not care less about Kerry Roads ) nor N4 and N5 schemes , no other primaries, no secondaries.

NOTHING!!!

The emasculation of the NRA by the Dept of Finance is almost complete .

Chris_533976

And it had better happen too, its one of the very much needed projects.

Victor

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Jackie Healy Rae is retiring after all and could not care less about Kerry Roads

What about Healy Rae II?

In fairness, there will be an awful lot of work in progress on the Athlone-Galway, Portlaoise-Limerick, Mitchelstown, Kilcullen-Carlow, Knocktopher-Carlow and finishing Portlaoise-Mitchelstown.

IIMII

At least the interurbans will be built. Something to show for a decade of waste and mishap

Carawaystick

IIMII wrote: »

At least the interurbans will be built. Something to show for a decade of waste and mishap

The road between Limerick and Cork, both of which are urban areas has no guarantee of being built. If the Govts want to refer only to roads between Dublin and other cities, they should use a word or words that mean just this. Interurban has an existing different meaning.

Irish and Proud

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The emasculation of the NRA by the Dept of Finance is almost complete.

I think that statement is a bit premature - you have to remember that during 2009, the following roads will be ongoing or completed:

M3 Clonee to Kells;
M6 Athlone to Ballinasloe;
M6 Ballinasloe to East Galway;
M7 Portlaoise to Borris;
M7 Borris to Nenagh;
M7 Nenagh to Limerick;
M8 Ardlea (M7) to Cullahill;
M8 Cullahill to Cashel (may open 2008);
M8 Mitchelstown to Fermoy;
M9 Kilcullen to Carlow;
M9 Carlow to Knocktopher;
M9 Knocktopher to Waterford;
M25 Waterford By-pass;
M50 Upgrade Phase 2.

That's 13 separate projects mate with the smallest ones over 16km while the largest, the M3, is nearly 50km long. A country like Britain, though 14 times our population, could only dream of such motorway construction activity today - though they already have a large network, it's pretty thinly spread across the island - they could do with a motorway up the East Coast towards Newcastle (M11 ext maybe?), plus one along the South Coast (M27 or something). Also, why not an M14 from Birmingham (M1-M6 jct) towards East Anglia instead of a cheap dualler. God knows, they've been rich for long enough!

In short, Ireland is not doing badly at all on the roads front! - 2010 will be the test though, regarding Ireland's continued commitment to road development.

Regards!

galwayrush

Chris_533976 wrote: »

And it had better happen too, its one of the very much needed projects.

Vital, without it, there'll be one hell of a traffic jam at the end of the M6

jank

So when are they going to build the flyovers for the Sarsfield and Bandon road roundabout?
2015?

rekrow

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I think that statement is a bit premature - you have to remember that during 2009, the following roads will be ongoing or completed:

M3 Clonee to Kells; (Private 61 km)
M6 Athlone to Ballinasloe; (19.4km)
M6 Ballinasloe to East Galway; (Private 56km)
M7 Portlaoise to Borris; (Private 40km)
M7 Borris to Nenagh; (36km)
M7 Nenagh to Limerick; (38km)
M8 Ardlea (M7) to Cullahill; (I think this refers to part of the PPP above)
M8 Cullahill to Cashel (may open 2008); (39.5 km)
M8 Mitchelstown to Fermoy; (16km)
M9 Kilcullen to Carlow; (27.55 km)
M9 Carlow to Knocktopher; (40 km)
M9 Knocktopher to Waterford; (24km)
M25 Waterford By-pass; (Private 23km)
M50 Upgrade Phase 2. (Private 24km)

You also forgot the limerick tunnel (Private 9.75km)

I agree that substantial progress has been made, but don't forget over 40% of roads being built next year are being built as private commercial operations. And in defence of any rebuttle about the other "p" in the ppp. The govt are essentially just a shareholder in these projects and will get their ROI also. Also regarding the roads being handed back after 30 years, this will have to be seen to be believed. If the m50 is anything to go by the govt will keep the status quo after the 30 years and keep the money rolling in 9easy political defence to say it is the operator that is increasing the charge instead of the govt).

I am on my soap box about this particular issue as I live in Galway, where over half the n4/n6 road to Dublin will be privately operated and car users will be charged a toll of 4.3 euro each way. Compare that to Dublin/Limerick where around 12.5% of the road will be privately operated and the toll is 1.6 euro. The M7 and M6 tolls are based on 2005 figures no more up to date figures than that. Based on the M4 the tolls will rise by 10c per year. The net result is that for a trip from Dublin to Galway vs one from Dublin to Limerick, according to NRA figures a journey approx the same in length, the cost is more than double for the Galway driver. Why not toll all or nothing and distribute the costs across all road users?

loyatemu

I've been told the N11 missing bit is going to tender shortly, so expect work on that to begin next year.

Victor

rekrow wrote: »

I am on my soap box about this particular issue as I live in Galway, where over half the n4/n6 road to Dublin will be privately operated and car users will be charged a toll of 4.3 euro each way. Compare that to Dublin/Limerick where around 12.5% of the road will be privately operated and the toll is 1.6 euro.

Limerick motorists will pay the tunnel toll on local journeys. Will the Galway outer bypass be tolled?

Swings roundabouts.

rekrow

Galway has no bypass. The new N/M6 will stop at a roundabout 2 miles outside Galway city. Doughiska will be the new Moate for N6 drivers. I have my doubts as to whether or not it will start in 2009. An bord pleanala didn't get their report sorted in time so a ruling on the road had been delayed. The route taken seems to pass through the rarest of habitats with every endangered species of grass, rock and snail en route. If it does go ahead next year it will already be 3 years behind the one in Limerick. Given the current climate I wouldn't rule out the GCOB being tolled yet. The original proposal was for it to be a PPP but given the revolt at having a third toll on the N6 they changed their minds. That decision was made in better financial times. If comes to a choice between starting next year with a toll or waiting until the economy picks up the politicans/NRA may revert back to the PPP route.

As for the toll in Limerick it is on the Western shore of the Shannon basically 2/3 of the bypass is not tolled. You will only be tolled at the crossing.

I agree that it is an injustice for users of that stretch of road to have to pay a toll when other stretches aren't tolled. For example if you live in Raheen and work in Shannon you pay a toll, if you live in the same place and work in Nenagh you don't. This was the point I was making in my original post. The government are selectively choosing to privitise parts of the road network. In my opinion they should either have barrier free tolling along all the routes where you pay by usage across the whole network, or scrap the tolls completely and put 5-10c on a litre of fuel and ring fence it for road infrastructure.

Sponge Bob

loyatemu wrote: »

I've been told the N11 missing bit is going to tender shortly, so expect work on that to begin next year.

That's gone to tender , (north of Arklow) and the tender was accepted, therefore its a go. It was the very last one to get through before Finance closed the funding window for roads .

Frank Fahey is still regularly drip feeding leaks to the Galway media about the N18 and N17 and the Claregalway and Galway Bypasses but these are dead ducks as I understand it albeit with a possible funding window for the N18 Gort-Ennis stretch but no more.

Anybody who believes Frank Fahey, is of course , an idiot but he did get €250,000 released to hire an engineer to design the Claregalway Bypass which is a rich return indeed for the Chairman of the Transport Committee in the Dáil .

Every other road project is dead in the water thanks to the Dept of Finance unless its being built today or has had a tender accepted by now .

Irish and Proud kindly posted a list of funded projects , they are irrelevant now. They indicate expenditure to 2010 but there is ABSOLUTELY no pipelined expenditure thereafter on N Roads bar possibly the Galway Bypass. I believe thats kyboshed now too .

Once these projects that have already gone to tender are complete (ALL by end 2010) no money will be spent on new roads for years thereafter , possibly not even in my lifetime. Some money will , of course, be found for maintenance.

That means that the following Roads , N4 N5 N15 N17 N18 N20 N21 N22 N24 N25 N11 south of Gorey are all finished for the long term foreseeable future .

After 2010 the Dept of Transport will only get funded for

1. Interconnect Rail
2. Some Dublin Metro projects by 2020 ( maybe )
3. The Dublin Outer Motorway just after the next general election but as a PPP

That's it , the Celtic Tiger was squandered now get used to it people !

rekrow

Noel Grealish was on the paper taking credit for the 250k for Claregalway bypass. The money is being used for a) a business justification to see if the road is necessary. What a joke! The dogs on the street knows claregalway needs a bypass. They have traffic counters down on every road and boreen in the town. b) The funding is also being used for design work. Another joke as the road was supposed to go to construction in 2005 but didn't as the landowners wouldn't sell the land without CPO. So I assume they did plans back then. Another 250k in some consultants pocket but still no further along to actual progress.

Sponge Bob

rekrow wrote: »

Noel Grealish was on the paper taking credit for the 250k for Claregalway bypass.

The N17 south of Claregalway carries 20k+ vehicles a day , no BUSINESS justification is required to bypass Claregalway with a proper single lane road or about 4km legth from somewhere around the N63 Junction.

Same as Enfield a few years back exactly. Enfield carried about the same traffic in 2001/2002 and got bypassed .

I was wrong in what I just said . I should have said that BOTH Noel Grealish and Frank Fahey between them have gotten a whopping €250k in total funding for the Claregalway bypass since it was included in the program for government in June 2007 as well as the N17 to the east..

Hotblack Desiato

rekrow wrote: »

In my opinion they should either have barrier free tolling along all the routes where you pay by usage across the whole network

Very expensive to implement

or scrap the tolls completely and put 5-10c on a litre of fuel and ring fence it for road infrastructure.

I agree, but if they try this, rural motorists will scream very loudly.
It makes a lot of sense to scrap road tax, tolls and VRT entirely and put it all on fuel tax, but it won't happen.

murphaph

ninja900 wrote: »

I agree, but if they try this, rural motorists will scream very loudly.
It makes a lot of sense to scrap road tax, tolls and VRT entirely and put it all on fuel tax, but it won't happen.

True, but I wonder at this stage (well past the days of cheap and plentiful oil) are governments thinking about alternative energy vehicles making more of an impact in the near future and thus being untaxable based on petrol/diesel usage. At the end of the day....the motorist will need to be taxed heavily in some shape or form or tax revenue will have to be raised elsewhere.

dubhthach

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The N17 south of Claregalway carries 20k+ vehicles a day , no BUSINESS justification is required to bypass Claregalway with a proper single lane road or about 4km legth from somewhere around the N63 Junction.

Same as Enfield a few years back exactly. Enfield carried about the same traffic in 2001/2002 and got bypassed .

I recall over 10 years ago seen plans in the City Library for a bypass of Claregalway. Galway County Council (GCC) had basically already done route selection for I think 3-4 routes around the village. Their display in the library was about each of them etc. Of course nothing ever came of it.

Not surprising when my father started working in GCC in the 1970's, he took part in the project to design a bypass of Moycullen. 30 years later it still hasn't been built.

bk

This isn't surprising, the NRA is currently undergoing the largest road building project in the states history. Once that was completed, everyone expected spending on new roads projects to be massively dialled down and spending on public transport (Metro, Luas, Dart, commuter train) to be dialled up.

However what it looks like that is happening now is that due to the current economic conditions, the dial down on road building is going to be much greater then it would have otherwise been and the smaller schemes that would have otherwise likely have gone ahead, like the ones mentioned above and Cork To Limerick and Cork Northern Bypass will now be canned in favour of the public transport projects.

This isn't necessarily the wrong decision, if the money is only there for a few projects, then the Luas/Metro/Interconnector are much more badly needed.

However the NRA has proven themselves to be excellent project managers in recent years and have worked well on PPP, so perhaps they will manage to get a few projects through as pure PPP's, it would be better then nothing.

Sponge Bob

bk wrote: »

However the NRA has proven themselves to be excellent project managers in recent years and have worked well on PPP, so perhaps they will manage to get a few projects through as pure PPP's, it would be better then nothing.

While thats true to an extent the problem there is that the only juicy PPP on the horizon is the Outer Dublin Bypass .

There is now a strong probability that the Atlantic Corridor will be completely shredded to facilitate this scheme which is not even in Transport21 .

Planning my hole

spacetweek

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Once these projects that have already gone to tender are complete (ALL by end 2010) no money will be spent on new roads for years thereafter , possibly not even in my lifetime. Some money will , of course, be found for maintenance.

Spongey you need a nappy over your mouth, there's so much sh*te coming out of it. Are you actually saying that you think that after 2010 the roads budget is going from 2 bill to zero overnight? For 30-40 years (your lifetime?) What little credibility you had, you just lost.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Every other road project is dead in the water thanks to the Dept of Finance unless its being built today or has had a tender accepted by now .

Again, this is probably only true until the current *downturn* (we're not in a recession) lifts in 12-18 months. That's not a huge deal. The way you're going on, you'd swear we just had a nuclear holocaust.

Chris_533976

I think things will be scaled back a bit, but bear in mind that theres 20 major road projects in construction at the mo according to the NRA site. (well 18 cos two have just finished). In fairness thats a ridiculous amount of construction for a country this size.

In the 20 projects, theres 551km under construction, most of it motorway. For a country of 4 million, thats PHENOMENAL. Scale that to UK population, thats 8,265km. Scale to Germanys population, thats 11,200km. Imagine the UK having 8,265km of motorway under construction!

So yeah, inaccurate but the current levels are unsustainable. Even halve the constructions now and it'll get done by 2015 as planned. I'd love to know where they're getting the raw materials (and the diggers!) from.

(That said, it was all supposed to be done years ago)

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That's gone to tender , (north of Arklow) and the tender was accepted, therefore its a go. It was the very last one to get through before Finance closed the funding window for roads .

Frank Fahey is still regularly drip feeding leaks to the Galway media about the N18 and N17 and the Claregalway and Galway Bypasses but these are dead ducks as I understand it albeit with a possible funding window for the N18 Gort-Ennis stretch but no more.

Anybody who believes Frank Fahey, is of course , an idiot but he did get €250,000 released to hire an engineer to design the Claregalway Bypass which is a rich return indeed for the Chairman of the Transport Committee in the Dáil .

Every other road project is dead in the water thanks to the Dept of Finance unless its being built today or has had a tender accepted by now .

Irish and Proud kindly posted a list of funded projects , they are irrelevant now. They indicate expenditure to 2010 but there is ABSOLUTELY no pipelined expenditure thereafter on N Roads bar possibly the Galway Bypass. I believe thats kyboshed now too .

Once these projects that have already gone to tender are complete (ALL by end 2010) no money will be spent on new roads for years thereafter , possibly not even in my lifetime. Some money will , of course, be found for maintenance.

That means that the following Roads , N4 N5 N15 N17 N18 N20 N21 N22 N24 N25 N11 south of Gorey are all finished for the long term foreseeable future .

After 2010 the Dept of Transport will only get funded for

1. Interconnect Rail
2. Some Dublin Metro projects by 2020 ( maybe )
3. The Dublin Outer Motorway just after the next general election but as a PPP

That's it , the Celtic Tiger was squandered now get used to it people !

Sorry, but this just makes no sense. We've a had one measley deficit this decade, and another probably next year, and you're saying there'll be no investment in transport (other than what you've listed above) for the next decade or more? Sorry sponge bob, but that sounds farcical even for this country. I don't believe you. What's your specific source? And the Dublin Outer Motorway is nowhere to be found on any website, unlike the Atlantic Corridor.

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

Sorry sponge bob, but that sounds farcical even for this country. I don't believe you. What's your specific source? And the Dublin Outer Motorway is nowhere to be found on any website, unlike the Atlantic Corridor.

LOL

In 2000 there was no plan for

1. Widening the M50
2. Buying the Westlink

either.

Yet the money was found for it as it will be for the outer orbital.

Yes its more important to build a road around Dublin than it is to build the atlantic corridor . Consultants will of course be be hired to prove that

I totally stand over following this bit people and anyone who thinks those roads are going ahead is delusional I fear.

"That means that the following Roads , N4 N5 N15 N17 N18 N20 N21 N22 N24 N25 N11 south of Gorey are all finished for the long term foreseeable future ."

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

LOL

In 2000 there was no plan for

1. Widening the M50
2. Buying the Westlink

either.

Yet the money was found for it as it will be for the outer orbital.

Yes its more important to build a road around Dublin than it is to build the atlantic corridor . Consultants will of course be be hired to prove that

I totally stand over following this bit people and anyone who thinks those roads are going ahead is delusional I fear.

"That means that the following Roads , N4 N5 N15 N17 N18 N20 N21 N22 N24 N25 N11 south of Gorey are all finished for the long term foreseeable future ."

I think what you're saying is of course possible: I just can't believe that on the back of a few deficit forecasts the government, which has been adament that it will continue to invest in our road network, would suddenly stop all of those schemes you've listed. It's Chicken Licken stuff. Again, what is your source? How are you privy to this information? When will it be announced?

L1011

Saying there'll be NO money spent is wildly inaccurate. We had schemes - expensive schemes - built when we were skint. Western Parkway. Naas DC. Leixlip/Maynooth/Kilcock bypass, Mullingar Bypass, Airport Motorway. Stuff may return to being patchwork - AWC built with the bypasses first - or even done like the north, where the Banbridge Bypass was built single with land taken, blasted, flattened and bridged for the eventual dualling but there will still be road projects undertaken - large ones.

As goes other transport, could we afford the DART in 1984? No. But it was built.

Sponge Bob

MYOB wrote: »

Saying there'll be NO money spent is wildly inaccurate. We had schemes - expensive schemes - built when we were skint. Western Parkway. Naas DC. Leixlip/Maynooth/Kilcock bypass, Mullingar Bypass, Airport Motorway.

About 20 miles long between them and over an 8 year period . Thats an average of less than 3 miles of quality road a year and we are going back there, yes. If we build at that rate we wont even build Cork-Limerick alone by 2020

It will not be announced what with local elections coming up. Of course it won't . FF do not have the political courage to announce that they are abandoning Munster and Connaught .

You will notice in January/February 2009 that nothing is starting in 2009, you will notice in January/February 2010 that nothing is starting in 2010 etc etc.

Amtmann

MYOB wrote: »

Saying there'll be NO money spent is wildly inaccurate. We had schemes - expensive schemes - built when we were skint. Western Parkway. Naas DC. Leixlip/Maynooth/Kilcock bypass, Mullingar Bypass, Airport Motorway. Stuff may return to being patchwork - AWC built with the bypasses first - or even done like the north, where the Banbridge Bypass was built single with land taken, blasted, flattened and bridged for the eventual dualling but there will still be road projects undertaken - large ones.

As goes other transport, could we afford the DART in 1984? No. But it was built.

Cork South Link Road, N8 reallignment away from Glanmire...Cahir Bypass -- all 1980s, early 90s.

Spongebob, I actually do appreciate your information. But again, how are you privy to it?

(And why would Fianna Fail -- or any party, for that matter -- "abandon Munster and Connaught" at the first whiff of a deficit in years? Does it not seem like an extreme reaction?)

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

Cork South Link Road, N8 reallignment away from Glanmire...Cahir Bypass -- all 1980s, early 90s.

Spongebob, I actually do appreciate your information. But again, how are you privy to it?

Connections :cool:

(And why would Fianna Fail -- or any party, for that matter -- "abandon Munster and Connaught" at the first whiff of a deficit in years? Does it not seem like an extreme reaction?)

Its not a "whiff of a deficit" is the answer, the projections are for a deficit as high as 8% of GDP in extremis and no less than 4% of GDP in 2009 and slightly less than that in 2010.

Therefore Capital spending will be cut to the bone and will stay cut to the bone for a long time thereafter.

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Connections :cool:

Can you elaborate?

spacetweek

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I totally stand over following this bit people and anyone who thinks those roads are going ahead is delusional I fear.

"That means that the following Roads , N4 N5 N15 N17 N18 N20 N21 N22 N24 N25 N11 south of Gorey are all finished for the long term foreseeable future ."

Sponge Brain, I'm sick of your doom and gloom and saying whatever comes into your head as if it was fact, so I'll stand over this:

In January the new list of roads for next year will be announced, and you'll be proven wrong.

If you think that the mere fact of you wishing something makes it true, then it is you that is delusional.