Who is going to be in the IAA now.

gandalf

weeder wrote: »

lads ive only skimmed over this thread but god, this was brought up and put to bed months ago, this is an IAa specific woe which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and should be on the iaa forum, actually i havent a clue what the topic of this thread is about :eek:

TBH it has gone off topic but god its nice to have an IAA thread thats not turned into a flamewar. Might as well let people discuss here so long as its relevant and actual specific questions that only the IAA can answer are directed to them on their forum.

Frank the Manc

vtec wrote: »

The impression you give from the above post though, is that the retailer is "knowingly" selling hot AEGs, theres so many things that can effect the muzzle velocity/energy of an AEG and a reading on monday isnt necessarily the same as it will be on tuesday, i had a similar situation in gtac with my M4 chrono'ing at 340, did it again the next day and it was 327fps, thats a fairly decent drop.
theres always the chance that some guns will get through the net though, and the retailers are obliged to take the gun back and correct the problem, im assuming you/the owner never told the retailer about the fact that the gun was hot? otherwise they would most likely have sorted it themselves. you also void the warrentys on those guns by doing it yourself instead of just letting the retailer know what the story was.

using the statment that "irish retailers are selling hot guns"! is getting really old now i must say, and im not just saying that about your post, im talking above previous threads similar to this one. out of all the guns sold its probably like 3% that turn out to be over the limit and these few examples are used in statments like the above, which then results in messy out of proportion arguements on here.,

if you read the post you will see that i said that it was human error and no where did i state that there was retailers knowlingly selling hot guns, so without this turing into a flame war here is what im talking about:



does that look like a fluctuation in power?
that was the highest reading, the lowest was 420.
the other gun was averaging 360-370.
i have spoke to both lads and neither contacted the retailer due to their dissatisfaction with service, the extent of which i cant speak intellegently on.
it was far simpler matter for me to fix the problem than dick around with posting and waiting on the gun or making the 2 hour car journey.

again i am not staing that any retailers are intentionally selling hot equiptment, as it is in no ones best interests to do so and im sure all of them have worked far to hard to throw it all away.

But i do take strong exception to the statement that buying from an IAA affiliate will guarantee you a legal airsodt device.

that is all i have to say on the matter.

MacAonghusa

weeder wrote: »

lads ive only skimmed over this thread but god, this was brought up and put to bed months ago, this is an IAa specific woe which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and should be on the iaa forum, actually i havent a clue what the topic of this thread is about :eek:

The thread is "Who is going to be in the IAA now.", it's about joining the IAA, the benefits of being in the IAA and the IAA plans for the future and therefore, locations of AGM's and all such issues are directly related and so "on topic", IMO.

kdouglas

Frank the Manc wrote: »

if you read the post you will see that i said that it was human error and no where did i state that there was retailers knowlingly selling hot guns, so without this turing into a flame war here is what im talking about:



does that look like a fluctuation in power?
that was the highest reading, the lowest was 420.
the other gun was averaging 360-370.
i have spoke to both lads and neither contacted the retailer due to their dissatisfaction with service, the extent of which i cant speak intellegently on.
it was far simpler matter for me to fix the problem than dick around with posting and waiting on the gun or making the 2 hour car journey.

again i am not staing that any retailers are intentionally selling hot equiptment, as it is in no ones best interests to do so and im sure all of them have worked far to hard to throw it all away.

But i do take strong exception to the statement that buying from an IAA affiliate will guarantee you a legal airsodt device.

that is all i have to say on the matter.

Buying from an IAA affiliated retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, however had they contacted the IAA or the retailer themselves, then this would have been noted. If the IAA were to receive a complaint regarding a retailer, they would contact that retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they received multiple complaints about a retailer on a regular basis, then they could do more.

It's not uncommong for one batch of an AEG to chrono under 1J and another batch of the same brand and model to be over, especially with the chinese clone brands, reporting this to a retailer allows them to be extra vigilent with that particular make/model.

Your point is moot anyway, since nobody actually bothered to inform the retailer or the IAA about the incident.

Frank the Manc

kdouglas wrote: »

Buying from an IAA affiliated retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, however had they contacted the IAA or the retailer themselves, then this would have been noted. If the IAA were to receive a complaint regarding a retailer, they would contact that retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they received multiple complaints about a retailer on a regular basis, then they could do more.

It's not uncommong for one batch of an AEG to chrono under 1J and another batch of the same brand and model to be over, especially with the chinese clone brands, reporting this to a retailer allows them to be extra vigilent with that particular make/model.

Your point is moot anyway, since nobody actually bothered to inform the retailer or the IAA about the incident.

i would have presumed that all guns would be tested individually and not just taken that a model or make would be under the limit if tested previously.

my point is indeed very much valid.
affiliation does not guarantee you an under the limit gun.
but i do see where you are coming from re: informing retailer, i advised the lads do do so, as they had paid good money for the guns, but they didnt so it had nothing to do with me in that regards.

Puding

Buying from an IAA affiliated retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, however had they contacted the IAA or the retailer themselves, then this would have been noted. If the IAA were to receive a complaint regarding a retailer, they would contact that retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they received multiple complaints about a retailer on a regular basis, then they could do more.

It's not uncommong for one batch of an AEG to chrono under 1J and another batch of the same brand and model to be over, especially with the chinese clone brands, reporting this to a retailer allows them to be extra vigilent with that particular make/model.

I do believe this is getting off topic but i will reply as i believe it important, i agree with your post kdouglas but i do not agree that 'because one batch is ok we will not test other' is not a valid defense. I have a large number of documented aegs brought from Irish retailers coming in over 400fps this are stock clone items, know this problem was brought up thought are rep and as far as im aware dealt with, this was done not on boards but as it should be between the retailer and the iaa with not bitching and crap like that over the forums just because you do not hear about things does not mean nothing is going on.

I did post in this same thread this same response but i will repeat it, for the system to work we all have to take part if something come up go to the iaa and email them, if nothing happens after that or you do not get a response you can complain but until then you can not, you get as much out as you put in.

The system only works with your input and feedback

Boru.

I for one will not be, and I will outline the reasons below. However, I do believe everyone interested in the sport should give the IAA or any body attempting to better the sport a chance.

I have participated in all aspects of airsoft. I've skirmihsed, trained teams, marshalled, run games and hepled out in charity events etc. Initilally I left over the problems in the sport. I came back, joined the IAA and decieded I would participate and try to make a difference. I felt that while the IAA had made numerous contributions to airsoft, as mentioned previously, they had yet to directly better the game and community in areas's such as saftey, admin etc.

Games were still being poorly run
People were still confused about the rules.
Marshalling was not unifed or coordinated.
Needless injuries and accidents were occuring as a result of lack of cohesive and comprehensive unserstaing of the rules, saftey etc.

Rather than just walk away I became involved and was appointed to the Marshalling Sub Committee of the IAA.

After an intital promising start, it became apparent to me and others involved in the betterment of the sport that several key individauls of the IAA had personal interests and viewpoints that were counterproductive to the sport as a whole. I hasten to add that this niether represents other commitee memebers who genuinely strive for the betterment of the sport despite this internal sabotage, or the individual member of the IAA.

Resoultions were attempted. These were edited, erased or ignored. Discussion of the topic became near impossible, and then after some appalling personal conduct by several key members of the IAA commitee and representitives, that I felt poorly reflected the sport and was a direct affront to the stated objective of the IAA "to lay down guidelines for retailers, venues and players in order to ensure that the sport continues to grow and is enjoyed in a safe and responsible manner".

It became apparent to me that the ideals of saftey, honor and proper conduct were being paid lip service by these particular members and that an outlet for complaint or corrective action was not possible.

As such I resigned from the sub committee, left the IAA and removed myself from memebrship, and ultimately from the sport. I did not, and do not feel that the IAA can effectively address the problems caused by these members with personal agendas, nor do I feel that IAA can effectively and honestly pursue it's charter with such conflicting elements sabotaging the orgnaistation from within. Again, this is not maliscious in nature, just a simple statement of my own personal feelings having been on both sides of the fence.

As one poster put it I have been A (following) B (participating and leading) and C (simply playing the game) after which I was made to feel very uncomfortable for reasons I shall not discole on a public board, but many of those that read know to what I allude and as such ultimately took D (left the sport).

While there are many members of the IAA, and I beleive this to be the majority, and those on the committee, who do generally want the best for airsoft in Ireland, in my experience these men and women are completely undermined and rendered ineffctive by a small number whose personal opinions superceed the majority. As such I no longer see the IAA as a viable body for the betterment of the sport.

I look forward to a time when I feel comfortable both returning to the sport and when we have matured and developed a true community that has the best interests of all in mind.

kdouglas

Puding wrote: »

I do believe this is getting off topic but i will reply as i believe it important, i agree with your post kdouglas but i do not agree that 'because one batch is ok we will not test other' is not a valid defense. I have a large number of documented aegs brought from Irish retailers coming in over 400fps this are stock clone items, know this problem was brought up thought are rep and as far as im aware dealt with, this was done not on boards but as it should be between the retailer and the iaa with not bitching and crap like that over the forums just because you do not hear about things does not mean nothing is going on.

I did post in this same thread this same response but i will repeat it, for the system to work we all have to take part if something come up go to the iaa and email them, if nothing happens after that or you do not get a response you can complain but until then you can not, you get as much out as you put in.

The system only works with your input and feedback

Well, yes, that's true of most brands, especially the chinese clones, but for brands like TM and up until recently, Classic Army, you could be reasonably guaranteed that their guns would be under 1 Joule.

gandalf

Just infracted Silver Haze for trolling. Thread is back on the brink of being locked.

Boru while I sympathise with your position I think the best way to change this organisation is from within. I have serious issues with the way things have gone myself and I (and others) will be addressing those at the next AGM. Either we want a representative organisation or not. If we do then we might as well try and work within it to change it. I appreciate you did try this and I have no idea what obstacles you came up against.

kdouglas

Games were still being poorly run
People were still confused about the rules.
Marshalling was not unifed or coordinated.
Needless injuries and accidents were occuring as a result of lack of cohesive and comprehensive unserstaing of the rules, saftey etc.

Games being poorly run is not the responsibility of the IAA.
Cant do anything about people being confused either, this is also the sites responsibility.
The IAA appointed a marshalling committee to set up guidelines for this, and the main IAA committee had no input in to this so as to remain impartial, to date, the report from the marshalling sub-committee still has not been received.
Again, needless injuries et al...? I'm unaware of any major injuries other than the occasional trip and fall by any player, but how is this the business of the IAA? It's not, they can set out guidelines for sites, but it is up to the sites to ensure they are put in to place.

You're blaming a lot of stuff on the IAA which has nothing to do with them.


As gandalf said, I've no idea what obstacles you came up against, but accusations of the IAA committee having a personal agenda or vested interested are, frankly, rubbish, unless you can back this up with proof of which committee members and how they are doing so, then dont bother mentioning it again.

Puding

you could be reasonably guaranteed that their guns would be under 1 Joule.

For a long time this was the case but nowadays there is no guarantee, up until last week i had never had a vfc come in over the joule, then what pop onto my door step a scar at 350fps was not a happy bunny, im just of the opinion that with a sport such as airsoft and it being such an easy target for attack from outside and within everyone needs to go above and beyond to make shore we do not give people ammunition for the attacks.

The iaa affiliate system is not perfect but I see it as the first step, I could always want an independent player run group instead of like the uk where the control in centered firmly know with the retailers I this kind of system is unhealthy, but what the iaa have started is a foundation something to work on and improve. But any improvement can only come from all of use, to many people want what they want know with no work.

Frank the Manc

kdouglas wrote: »

Well, yes, that's true of most brands, especially the chinese clones, but for brands like TM and up until recently, Classic Army, you could be reasonably guaranteed that their guns would be under 1 Joule.

there are no guarantees in life, and especially not in the complexities of an AEG.
every gun should be individually tested to ensure legallity.

would you not agree?

ScumLord

I didn't join the IAA out of pure lazyness and now I'm not that pushed about it. I'd love to be part of some group or club, should the guards ever come knocking.

I hate committees though. Anyone from a small town will know they can quickly become a click of people only looking out for their own best interest. I'm not saying this is true when it comes to the IAA I've ignored much of that battle and know little about whats involved but from bits and pieces I've read about the IAA and their own rhetoric they've got the guts of a fine "co-mit-eee" going. talks of constitutions, AGMs and presidents and vice presidents screams committee to me.

All these things are done in the best interests of the airsofters but I think far to much attention is payed to the bureaucracy rather than promoting and facilitating co-operation between all the different airsofters.

I like airsoft but I don't take it anywhere near as serious as other players. I don't want to pledge allegiance to anything and I don't want to have to pick sides.

Hivemind187

The IAA committee has had a policy of not engaging with the users on this, or any other forum for the last few months. The reasons are a matter of record and it was felt by the committee that it was best to cease any activity on the forums due to the level of hostility both for the sake of the forum itself and for the committee members blood pressure.

If you wish to contact us you can do so either by communicating through our forums (on which you can normally expect a reply within a few hours) or by emailing us directly at info@irishairsoft.ie

While I am here I thought I might clear up a few things (with permission from Keith, if other mods feel differently they can remove this post at their discretion).

The main issues people seem to have are as follows and we'll look at each one individually.

The AGM
-The current membership of the IAA stands at about 120 persons. Of which 72 are in the greater Dublin area (including the surrounding counties of Wicklow, Louth, Kildare & Westmeath). 50 of these are in Dublin county alone. That is more than half of the membership in the greater Dublin area with the rest spread fairly thinly across the rest of the country. With the highest concentrations (all below a dozen) in Kerry (7), Tipperary (5) and Limerick (5). It's not a personal slight against counties that aren't Dublin, it's a matter of achieving the most effect with the minimum effort by all involved.
-The AGM is not a recruiting station, it is for members to cast their votes on issues they have raised throughout the year and for them to decide who they want to represent them in the coming year.
-The AGM is held once a year, not enough happens in that time to impact the daily lives of the average airsofter to warrant multiple meetings (which would no longer be annual and would still require a specific AGM or we could no longer be called a legitimate body – the law is funny about things like that). As for the date the AGM is held, it's held annually (hence the name) to change the time it's held to suit one person makes it unsuitable for others. There is no way that every single person is going to be catered to – so perhaps they should make some allowances or effort themselves.
The committee members are elected by a democratic vote held at the AGM one every 12 months. They are elected to be the representatives of the hobby in varying capacities for that period and to make decisions on the behalf of the association. If you have issues with a committee members decisions, or you simply dislike them personally, you have the opportunity to either vote against them in an upcoming AGM or to propose yourself as a candidate for election to their position – so long as you are a member of the association.

What have the IAA actually done for Airsoft? What do I get out of it?
-The IAA was set up initially in response to a lot of calls by people on Boards.ie for a representative body or governing body to protect the community from what was perceived as an extremely hostile press, population and government authority. I myself wrote the original draft of the constitution and it was a post from the boards that led to the original committee being formed by those same people proposed for the job.
-The IAA took a few months to get everything set up, lots of debate and investigation and research went into drawing up a set of guidelines and rules that we could build something out of. Some of these rules have stayed and others have been given the boot due to being either irrelevant, unimportant or over-reaching. By the end of this year there will be a complete system set up within which the IAA can conduct and police itself without the need for third party or government interference.
-The IAA provides a democratic structure within which the community can decide for themselves how they want things run and how they want things to progress. It is not a dictatorship nor is it an oligarchy. It is more akin to a union capable of petitioning government, media etc with a single voice on behalf of the community. A much louder one than a lot of individuals clamoring about stuff on the internet.
-The IAA has provided guidelines (eventually regulations) for retailers and venues which are still being drawn up and re-drawn up to ensure that there is a clear set of parameters within which they must operate to maintain their affiliation. If they step outside these rules (which are intended to be fair and not oppressive) and damage the community they can and should be thrown out of the association.
-The IAA met with the department of justice with regard to the drafting of firearms legislation (they approached us the day after we became and official body). The IAA presented the case for airsoft in such a manner that it was eventually decided that Airsoft would not be considered under the firearms law. It was stated at the time by the DOJ representatives that the government tends to look at what Britain does and then copy it. Currently in Ireland you do not need a license or permit to own and operate an AEG, nor does it have to be bright pink, have a red tip or require that you be a member of a site. As such everyone is fine (for now) be they a plinker, collector or unable to attend regular skirmishes due to disability or poverty (something that the VCRA does not take into account). In recent discourse with the DoJ it was revealed that Airsoft does still exist in a precarious position, should a minister decide to use us as a political tool we could very easily find ourselves restricted even more harshly than the UK. Bright orange uniforms anyone?
-The IAA continues to provide representation and a point of contact for the government, authorities, other organisations, new players and the media. If you need further evidence of this I suggest you contact Peter Sharpe in GoTactical, Liz McManus TD, NewsTalk, Joe Duffy, The Sunday Times, the Independent, the Times, the Evening Herald, the Daily Star, RTE DriveTime and a dozen others with whom we have had correspondence. It was mentioned that there has been calls on the board to allow the IAA to represent the sport on the airwaves etc and that some people did not like this. Like it or not, it is better that a single united voice be used as representation rather than a hoarde of angry people calling in and making airsoft come off as a bunch of bitter gun-nuts. Some of you will remember that in the early days this is exactly how we came off – disorganised and cranky.
-Insurance. Negotiations were entered into about 3-4 months ago with a number of companies to provide cheap insurance for the individual airsofter which would cover them throughout Europe and for a number of other sports as well. These negotiations have been stalled until such time as the IAA has enough paying members to negotiate a discount rate (which was what was asked for at the time by the community).
-ID Cards. While the progress has been slow we do require a certain number of people return the correct details and photographs in order to keep this rolling. To date I believe we have a half dozen people who have paid and submitted their information. We need quite a few more than that. I'm not sure how many off the top of my head since I am not dealing directly with the process.
-Finally, you have got all of this for free so far (save for the 30 something people who have paid, thanks by the way!)

Trustee's
-While I understand it's intention, is irrelevant by virtue of democracy. If you don't like what the committee has done you have the right to hold us accountable, as you would any leader. You can ask questions and expect answers. Which is why we have made ourselves contactable via email and a website. It is not up to us to anticipate the information you want, you have to ask us for it yourselves, we are not omniscient and we do have lives to lead.

The Chair and Vice-Chair roles
-The purpose of the Vice-Chair position, as in any democracy, is that should the chair be unable to fulfill his/her duties the Vice chair can step in. President Gerald Ford was the VP right up until Nixon got caught being a naughty boy (not making any connection between Oisin and Nixon before anyone starts to make assumptions). It's the doctrine of redundancy. There was no election for Gordon Brown, nor was their one for Ford – if you had to stop and start a bureaucracy every time someone flaked, bailed, retired, got sick or died not a single thing would get done because everyone would be spending all their time running for election.

The AGM Minutes
-We have explained before about the minutes of the meeting. They are incredibly poor quality and virtually inaudible for much of it (Stephane is an excruciatingly quiet speaker). We attempted to get them transcribed but the process is too expensive and would yield no better results than “blah blah blah [inaudible] yadda blah [inaudible][inaudible][inaudbile] chronograph”. I'll put them up but to be honest, they are incomplete and all it will do is start more arguments, but if thats what you want then fine.

The Constitution
-There has been a ratified one for about 7 months now I think you'll find. Accessibility - I'll cop to this one. The file format should have been considered and there should be a specific section of the website linked from the front page. But is a flaw in webdesign really a valid condemnation of an entire organisation? We'll get something for this sorted soon as all of our documentation is being organised for a huge overhaul on the site, the beginnings of which can be seen already.

Regional Reps
-Regional representatives are volunteers who give up there time to help keep us in Dublin in the loop with regard to the comings and goings of the other counties. Guess what? Not a lot of people are applying for the positions. We have contacted a few people to see if they wouldn't mind pitching in and though I must admit they are all very supportive and positive on the idea, usually they either hadn't the time or the resources to be able to do the job. If you want to be considered for the role please do drop us a line and we'll discuss it.

Slow Progress
-The IAA has only been around for 18 months, and only 7-8 of those were as an official body. Rome was not built in a day nor to can any governing or representative body be completed in such short order. We are doing what we can to put the pieces together so that who ever takes over will have all the grunt work done for them. Where have we been? Well in the last couple of months we've been quiet – mainly because there hasn't been much to say. Lots of policies being drawn up, lots of testing, lots of talking to venues and to retailers. We're actively trying to provide the proper framework so that we will not be a target for the overzealous “panicky parent brigade” that many don't feel are a threat. I would remind those people of the swathe of BS we get every couple of months when something serious happens – Liz McManus TD Vs. GoTactical Ltd in Bray for example. Or how about before that, with the two months of rubbish in the newspapers after the Toys 4 Big Boys show? Like it or not, making the correct decisions and putting the appropriate frameworks in place takes time, lots of it and nearly as much research and debate and reasoning.

Hot AEG's and the IAA “guarantee”
The IAA offers no guarantee that devices will always be CJB2006 compliant, this would be an impossible boast. What we do say is that any IAA affiliate is obliged to repair or replace any device which is not meeting this criteria. This is the same as your statutory rights and an area that the IAA should not be involved with since it is a commercial aspect. HOWEVER – the IAA provides a safe guard whereby any retailer found to be regularly or deliberately in breach of this requirement will be held accountable and where necessary their affiliation will be terminated or their application for affiliation refused.
As an extension of this, the IAA is currently implementing a system which will help to alert retailers to specific models and brands which are coming in over the limit, there is no perfect solution but having the ability to look at a product and say “Yes, this is likely to be over and we should test it” (JG, Dboys for example) and “It's TM, no way this should be over, it would break Japanese law let alone ours” (in the case of TM). It's a happy medium between testing everything and testing nothing.

On a personal note I want to ask a very simple question. What-do-you-want? I mean spell it out for me. What specifically has the IAA done wrong? What is it about a democratic system put together for your benefit, for free, and that you can vote in and influence decisions, that you don't like?

Lastly, myself and Sean will not be running for any IAA committee positions this year, Stephane Ambrosine and Oisin McGovern have already resigned their posts. Put your money where your mouth is, if you want things done differently then run for election and make the association run the way you want it. Thats the positions of Chair, Vice-Chair, Legal Liaison and Public Relations Officer up for grabs with the other guys having about 3-4 months left to decide. Myself and Sean will finish out our duties and complete the work we set out to complete. After that we will revert to being basic, bog standard members like everyone else.

Neither myself, nor the others will be responding to questions asked on boards. This is a one time post and we have no intention of fanning any flame wars. Please, if you have a question, we are more than happy to respond to emails, phone calls and to posts on our forum or even the chat room.

Thanks.

gandalf

ScumLord wrote: »

I didn't join the IAA out of pure lazyness and now I'm not that pushed about it. I'd love to be part of some group or club, should the guards ever come knocking.

I hate committees though. Anyone from a small town will know they can quickly become a click of people only looking out for their own best interest. I'm not saying this is true when it comes to the IAA I've ignored much of that battle and know little about whats involved but from bits and pieces I've read about the IAA and their own rhetoric they've got the guts of a fine "co-mit-eee" going. talks of constitutions, AGMs and presidents and vice presidents screams committee to me.

All these things are done in the best interests of the airsofters but I think far to much attention is payed to the bureaucracy rather than promoting and facilitating co-operation between all the different airsofters.

I like airsoft but I don't take it anywhere near as serious as other players. I don't want to pledge allegiance to anything and I don't want to have to pick sides.

Heres the rub thought if you want to be recognised as a sport by the Sports Council you really have to go down this route. If airsoft gets recognised by the Sports Council then it is in a far stronger position if an incident occurs in the future or Liz McManus or another politician decides to score cheap political points with the Mammy brigade.

Tigger

Thank you for answering my concerns and my spefic points hivemind

Tigger

Hivemind187 wrote: »

On a personal note I want to ask a very simple question. What-do-you-want? I mean spell it out for me. What specifically has the IAA done wrong? What is it about a democratic system put together for your benefit, for free, and that you can vote in and influence decisions, that you don't like?

you have done a huge amount for airsoft i have enjoyed cheering for you on the radio and as i have said before i pity the politician/reporter that you get to tie in knots

i would have vote for you for any position you chose to persue

i don't however appriciate the way i have been shouted down by the masses and heckeled and called names for making my points regarding the IAA

these points i have always made in a polite and forthright manner yet i feel they have been reacted to with agression and intollerance

Hivemind187

Tigger wrote: »

you have done a huge amount for airsoft i have enjoyed cheering for you on the radio and as i have said before i pity the politician/reporter that you get to tie in knots

i would have vote for you for any position you chose to persue

Thanks. But as I have stated I wont be pursuing any further role within the IAA. I did what I intended to do, as has Sean (Extremetaz) and we are happy enouogh with the results from our perspective.

[/QUOTE]i don't however appriciate the way i have been shouted down by the masses and heckeled and called names for making my points regarding the IAA

these points i have always made in a polite and forthright manner yet i feel they have been reacted to with agression and intollerance[/QUOTE]

Were these responses made by members of the committee or the general membership? The membership is made up of individuals, as is the committee and unless it is being said as a matter of statement or policy then it really shouldnt be taken as such. Remember, it is has been said by many people that they support the IAA in principal but not those running it and a dozen other perspectives alike. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this. I wont get into "you should" or "they should". Just that its better to take each comment in context from an individual not the entire group.

The committee (which is what people seem to have the most problem with from reading this thread - and this thread alone) try not to post here because of the way things have gone in the past. We walked away from it in the hope it would help to put a stop to a lot of the arguments. for the most part it has been sucessful - for boards - for us however it hasnt been.

If you have a problem, a question or a comment you wish to put to the committee please do email us or make a comment in our forum. You dont have to be an IAA member to post there and we do infact have a few who arent, so you are more than welcome as are dissenting comments.

Tigger

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Thanks. But as I have stated I wont be pursuing any further role within the IAA. I did what I intended to do, as has Sean (Extremetaz) and we are happy enouogh with the results from our perspective.

i don't however appriciate the way i have been shouted down by the masses and heckeled and called names for making my points regarding the IAA

these points i have always made in a polite and forthright manner yet i feel they have been reacted to with agression and intollerance

Were these responses made by members of the committee or the general membership? The membership is made up of individuals, as is the committee and unless it is being said as a matter of statement or policy then it really shouldnt be taken as such. Remember, it is has been said by many people that they support the IAA in principal but not those running it and a dozen other perspectives alike. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this. I wont get into "you should" or "they should". Just that its better to take each comment in context from an individual not the entire group.

The committee (which is what people seem to have the most problem with from reading this thread - and this thread alone) try not to post here because of the way things have gone in the past. We walked away from it in the hope it would help to put a stop to a lot of the arguments. for the most part it has been sucessful - for boards - for us however it hasnt been.

If you have a problem, a question or a comment you wish to put to the committee please do email us or make a comment in our forum. You dont have to be an IAA member to post there and we do infact have a few who arent, so you are more than welcome as are dissenting comments.

appreciated

CrazyRabbit

So many complaints....so few proposed solutions.

1. May I suggest that the IAA prepare a Project Plan for activities. It should show past milestones/successes & future plans with rough dates for completion (Like 2nd quarter of 2009 etc...doesn't need a specific date). This would help improve the image of the IAA and show people what has been achieved by the IAA already. The IAA needs some serious PR work...it's always been a serious issue.

2. ID cards need to be handed out as soon as possible. Right now, I think a few people have membership numbers. That's just not good enough. I know there are good reasons why the cards aren't available yet, but it has to be done, and the sooner the better. People have paid for these cards and expect something for their money. No cards = bad PR.

3. Regarding AGM location, I've proposed solutions for this before. AGM's can be held virtually. I may be able to help with free phone conferencing, and perhaps web conferencing which allows powerpoint presentations to be shown on screen etc. At the very least, a decent webcam can broadcast the meeting via a password protected website. Passwords would be available to members only. An intergrated chat for posing questions would also be needed. None of this is beyond our ability, and the cost is pretty low.

4. IAA posts need to be banned from this forum. Whilst I greatly prefer this forum over the IAA one, it's not really the right place (yes, I'm aware I'm posting this here rather than the IAA forum, but this is a reply and not a new topic). The image of the IAA and this forum need to be completely separate.

5. Official recognition as a sport needs to be obtained from the Sports Council. There are a lot of things that need to be done before this is possible, but I feel it should be a high priority. We need proper registered clubs, registered sites (done), registered retailers (done), formal IAA tournaments/league rankings etc, standardised rules of play (rather than site specific rules) and perhaps one or two other items.

6. We need much much more positive publicity controlled by us (and not newspaper/radio shows). This is already being done by some teams but perhaps we need to be more aggressive about it. How about writing an article for newspapers & magazines? Excuse the pun, but we need to go on the offensive in regards to PR. Any ideas from anyone? How about a leaflet with an 'action' pic, some basic info on Airsoft, and website url's for more information (IAA website, retailers, skirmish site websites etc). Retailers and skirmish sites could pay for the leaflets. Hell, I can photocopy a few thousand for free. And then....we go around dropping the leaflets into letterboxes.

And in case it isn't already crystal clear, I'm not having a go at anyone or any group with the above. I, unlike many, am simply trying to be helpful.

Boru.

I haven't read ahead yet, so if some of these points have already been addressed I apologize.

gandalf wrote: »

Boru while I sympathise with your position I think the best way to change this organisation is from within. I have serious issues with the way things have gone myself and I (and others) will be addressing those at the next AGM. Either we want a representative organisation or not. If we do then we might as well try and work within it to change it. I appreciate you did try this and I have no idea what obstacles you came up against.

Thanks Gandalf, I apprecaite that. I and others thought that way at the time. Unfotunately it was not to be. With that said I wish you the best of luck in your attempts to improve the organisation and sincerely hope you succeded. Should you wish I would be more than happy to discuss with you privately the specific roadblocks I and others met in trying to address that situation. It may be useful to know what problems you may encounter. Just pm me. And best of luck.

Boru.

kdouglas wrote: »

Games being poorly run is not the responsibility of the IAA.
Cant do anything about people being confused either, this is also the sites responsibility.
The IAA appointed a marshalling committee to set up guidelines for this, and the main IAA committee had no input in to this so as to remain impartial, to date, the report from the marshalling sub-committee still has not been received.
Again, needless injuries et al...? I'm unaware of any major injuries other than the occasional trip and fall by any player, but how is this the business of the IAA? It's not, they can set out guidelines for sites, but it is up to the sites to ensure they are put in to place.

You're blaming a lot of stuff on the IAA which has nothing to do with them.


As gandalf said, I've no idea what obstacles you came up against, but accusations of the IAA committee having a personal agenda or vested interested are, frankly, rubbish, unless you can back this up with proof of which committee members and how they are doing so, then dont bother mentioning it again.

Hi Kdouglas,

Thanks for your input and view point. Unfortuantely there are some errors in what you're saying and I would like to clarify the situation. In the above quote you state that it is not the responsability of the IAA to ensure games are run well, yet three lines later you state that the IAA established the sub marshalling committe to deal with presciesly these issues.You are quite correct in regards to the establishment of the marshalling sub committee, of which I was a member. One of the duties was to discuss and outline the specific problems I listed above.

However, and this is most impotant, and one of my serious initial problems - it was not impartial. There was continued interference and editing from the IAA committee. Any and all impartiality was compromised, and the effectiveness of the committee undermined. And at points proposals were shot down before fully examined, idea's dismissed becasue they did not agree with personal policy of speific individuals, and more that I won't discuss here publically. Again, you are welcome to contact me privately to discuss this. Again, there was no recourse to have this addressed.

As regards my accusations, I do not intend them to be as such. They are simply statements of my personal expereicne. With that said I do have proof of everything I have cited here, inclduing the problems with impariality. These are written and recorded in own personal minutes, additional computer logs, forum edits, private emails and transcripts of private MSN and IRC conversations relating to said subject among others.

Beleive me, I would say nothing without full proof to back up exactly what I am saying. Furthermore, I had several conversations with IAA commitee memebrs and non committee memebrs that I am sure would go on the record and state the same, if need be.

Again, as I said to Gandalf, if you would like to contact me privately I would be more than happy to discuss the matter fully with you.

cherubaul

kdouglas wrote: »

Buying from an IAA affiliated retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, however had they contacted the IAA or the retailer themselves, then this would have been noted. If the IAA were to receive a complaint regarding a retailer, they would contact that retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they received multiple complaints about a retailer on a regular basis, then they could do more.

I really dont want to make this seem as if its a tit-for-tat Kdouglas but if i was to make some changes to your post it would also seem reasonable.

Please don't think i'm taking the P1ss but

Buying from an Irish retailer should ensure that you will get a legal airsoft device, however mistakes can happen and an AEG may slip through without being tested for whatever reason, However had they contacted TRADING STANDARDS or the retailer, then this would have been noted they would have contacted the retailer in the hopes to ensure it does not happen again, if however they recieve multiple complaints about a retailer they could do more.

Again i'm sorry if this warped paraphrasing seems either ignorant or smart arse but to me at least it makes sense. I'm assuming that airsoft retailers are registered businesses paying taxes etc. and thus are accountable to trading standards who are probably the right people to go to with a consumer complaint. And by your posts logic even though other irish retailers must abide by the same laws you seem to think that they are going to willingly break them be more likely to make mitakes. For clarification i mean established non IAA retailers who sell proper airsofting goods not lpegs. I can categorically say that every AEG I have bought in country has been under the limit and not all bought from IAA approved stores.

Rhinocharge

I take it there will be a lot of individuals here volunteering for committee positions. After reading how the IAA haven't done enough, I'd expect the community to be fighting over these cherished positions of alleged power so they can change things from within.

Anyone whom has worked & I mean worked on a committee knows that it's a thankless job, because you cannot please all of the people all of the time. It invades your private life & you take abuse for issues you don't always have control over. The best way of looking at committee members is as facilitators. They work as a democracy. They make decisions on the information they're given, if questions aren't asked they can't look at other viable options. You want answers you have 4 options:
Ask the IAA,
Ask someone else,
Volunteer your time & do something about it,
Sit in your chair & b*t*h & moan & blame everyone else.

I'm neither for, nor against the IAA, but don't I think being a member can hurt. ( but I know what it's like to work in office on a committee ) I do agree that the 30€ membership fee is a bit steep & I have already asked what I'll get for my money's worth.

In short I’ll only get out what I put in. Bickering gets us no where.
Like the film “Life of Brian”, the question is put,
“What have the Romans ever done for us?” & the answer “more than we'll ever know”.

Give them a chance, it's young days yet & we're all still finding our feet.

Dr_Pepper

On a personal Note (not to be confused with an IAA statement)
I just wanted to comment on the brilliance of this thread.
I just got around to reading all pages to this point and i find it fascinating.
So far i see:

1. Questions and confusion - none of which was ever asked of the IAA Committee directly. If you have these questions why live in the confustion when all you have to do is write an email or post on the IAA Site? I see that Tiggers have been addressed but if there are more of you i implore you to act on it.

2. Dissatisfaction with how things are done/going - People seem to be saying that they will wait until the AGM to address this. Why aren't you adressing the issue immediately? The committee are voted in by the members and if the members have something to bring to their attention then they should do it asap. The memberships input is needed at ALL times as the committee cannot think of everything themselves, nor do they have constant research into what the membership are thinking.

3. Possible Solutions - CrazyRabbit seems to be actually addressing the above but yet again its not being sent to the committee but rather posted here. Now i know that the chances are that it will be picked up here and perhaps actioned upon, but wouldn't it make more sense to go direct to those whom you elected? Again all it takes is to write an email or post on the IAA Site for all to see.

I dont really want to comment of the farce that was the marshalling sub-committe and its flaws but it was a failure. It was setup at the original AGM and went nowhere. Hopefully next time around it can be done better.

Finally i will state that i appreciate those who have been in a committee before and your valuable insight into the thankless job that the IAA Committee perform (even if badly). As at least you can see this thread is the typical example of the challanges that the Committee are faced with.
I for one joined the Committee knowing little to nothing about them, while trying to better the sport that i loved and was willing to fight for. My reasons were simple and i am happy to say that i have grown to appreciate these men who helped defend this sport in its times of need.

But to quote Harvey Dent "You Either Die a Hero, or Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become the Villain", as such i too will not run for a committee position this coming AGM. My recommendation to the current committee is to remove the position of Community Liaison Officer as, an experimental position, it cannot meet the constant demands of the airsofting public.

Thanks to those who have helped keep this thread alive and prevent yet another lockable flame war.

CrazyRabbit

Dr_Pepper, I was going to post it on the IAA website, but I didn't have much time yesterday evening to do so. And I'd forgotten my IAA forum password

I'll go post it now.