Religious Symbols - Time to take them down?

deadwood

Does anyone else agree that religious symbols displayed in Garda Stations and other public buildings is inappropriate? Most stations have a Sacred Heart picture in the kitchen or, worse, the Public Office.
There was a big hoo-haa by members a few years ago when Gardai in a recently refurbished station were directed to remove a Sacred Heart picture as it didn't consider people of other faiths who would visit the station (I agreed).
Should Pioneer pins, St. Brighids crosses etc. be banned? Christmas trees?
If management have a problem with a member wearing a turban (apologies if it's the wrong term), then surely we should prevent any displays of faith. If not, should we allow any person wear whatever clothing or accessory they feel is in keeping with their own religion?
There was a story recently where a Muslim girl was not allowed wear a veil (apologies again) at school in keeping with her faith but nobody suggested nuns in schools should remove theirs.

Should we move into the 21st century?

Jesus Wept

Damn right, a load of me granny, take it down.

CO19

Why should we ? just incase it might offend a visitor to a station,just incase those 'visitors' to stations don't realise it they're in a country that's predominantly Catholic country so they can expect to see religious stuff,do you think that if we went to say India,Pakistan etc that we should expect them to take down their equivelant of what we stick up ?? No I don't think so,as the saying goes when in Rome .

Jesus Wept

Let's align all our policys with India and Pakistan.

CO19

You know what I mean :rolleyes:

keen

CO19 wrote: »

Why should we ? just incase it might offend a visitor to a station,just incase those 'visitors' to stations don't realise it they're in a country that's predominantly Catholic country so they can expect to see religious stuff,do you think that if we went to say India,Pakistan etc that we should expect them to take down their equivelant of what we stick up ?? No I don't think so,as the saying goes when in Rome .

Ireland may be seen as a catholic country but it isn't.

How many people do you know that go to mass once a week, haven't had sex before marriage etc. Religion has no place in a police force what so ever. I'm Irish an I'm not catholic it's not just people of a differnt race that see a problem with it.

CO19

I'm not saying leave them up to show what the religion of the country is I'm saying why should we take them down incase it might offend someone from another religion/country cause it's not like they don't know what country their in and should expect to see religious items at some point it'd be like me saying i don't believe in any god and going to another country and seeing crosses etc up in places and saying take them down cause I don't believe in any god so it's offending me and considering that the govt works under a catholic ethos so to speak I think that's why they'll be left up in public institutions like police stations etc.
And if most of the officers at a particular station are religious they might want those type of things to be up

keen

CO19 wrote: »

I'm not saying leave them up to show what the religion of the country is I'm saying why should we take them down incase it might offend someone from another religion/country cause it's not like they don't know what country their in and should expect to see religious items at some point it'd be like me saying i don't believe in any god and going to another country and seeing crosses etc up in places and saying take them down cause I don't believe in any god so it's offending me and considering that the govt works under a catholic ethos so to speak I think that's why they'll be left up in public institutions like police stations etc.
And if most of the officers at a particular station are religious they might want those type of things to be up

So lets say ten officers are catholic and 11 are muslim, should we replace catholic religious art with muslim seen as muslims are in the majority?

It's a police station not a home, I don't agree with religion coming into any part of a police force, Should muslims be allowed to wear turbans instead of a police hat?

JimiTime

While your at it, you may as well rethink the serpent on the pole logo too. Its a reference to Moses and the copper serpent. Some people have too much time on their hands IMO.

JimiTime

keen wrote: »

Should muslims Sikhs be allowed to wear turbans instead of a police hat?

Fixed that for ye.

CO19

Look we could go on and on about it forever in my opinion no they shouldn't be made take them down incase it offends some one from another religion,regardless of whether most of the people in this country are religious like they used to be back in the day most would claim to be catholic whether they go to mass,obide by the catholic churches rules etc or not and also the govt is a catholic govt and is why I'm saying that people can't be expecting not to see crosses etc up in govt institutions.
So should we take them down in our schools too ?

Jesus Wept

CO19 wrote: »

So should we take them down in our schools too ?

Yes.

yayamark

keen wrote: »

Ireland may be seen as a catholic country but it isn't.

How many people do you know that go to mass once a week, haven't had sex before marriage etc.

Ahem! *Put hand up in the air*

CO19

The-Rigger wrote: »

Yes.

I think we should also change the colour of our flag too incase all the foreigners living here get upset that where they come from their colours aren't included in it too .

keen

JimiTime wrote: »

Fixed that for ye.

Fair play, whatever the religion the point remains the same.

yayamark wrote: »

Ahem! *Put hand up in the air*

I'm not saying there's no practicing catholics, I asked CO19 how many he knew.

keen

CO19 wrote: »

I think we should also change the colour of our flag too incase all the foreigners living here get upset that where they come from their colours aren't included in it too .

Why are you turning it into a race issue? I thought the debate was about religion?

jhegarty

I presume you will also want Christmas tress banned as well....


If I walked into a police station in dubai I would have no problem with seeing a muslin symbol on the wall... if would have no problem with a Hindu symbol on a Indian hospital...

why should Ireland be any different ?

CO19

keen wrote: »

Why are you turning it into a race issue? I thought the debate was about religion?

Race issue we're talking about 'Visitors' to police stations here so I'm presuming that most of these 'Visitors' will be foreign if they are to be offended etc by seeing the cross and other religious items.

And I know a fair few people that go to mass on a Sunday and the likes

CO19

jhegarty wrote: »

I presume you will also want Christmas tress banned as well....


If I walked into a police station in dubai I would have no problem with seeing a muslin symbol on the wall... if would have no problem with a Hindu symbol on a Indian hospital...

why should Ireland be any different ?

Exactly what I'm saying;) but because we're in Ireland and are generally an over the top with trying to be PC country all the time that it's the expected thing these days that we're to jump when other people from different religions etc say so if they don't like they way the Irish do things in Ireland.

keen

It's nothing got to do with being PC, there's no place for religion in a public service enviroment imo.

CO19

Fair enough ,personally I don't think that it matters whether there is or isn't any crosses etc up in public places like a police station but I strongly agree with not taking them down if they are up in some places especially just so not to offend someone from another religion which I can't see how it would offend in the first place to be honest that's their problem if they get offened by items from our religion, anyway unless they can cause some sort of health&safety issue by being up then no in my opinion they should be left up if they're up in the first place

Fyr.Fytr

If its a cross or a picture and people are getting offened then wow they're easily offended, should we remove electricity, just incase an amish person gets the hump??

Its hardly the biggest problem facing AGS at the moment is it?

deadwood

I don't think we should concern ourselves with what they do or don't do abroad. Nothing would move on if we'll only take ours down when they do the same in Muslim (e.g.) countries.
Not only do we need to be objective but need to be seen to be objective.
This isn't about offending Muslims. It's about providing an objective service.
Just because these pictures etc are there for years, doesn't make them suitable. I'm sure there have been Page 3 posters and worse in locker rooms for years but nobody thinks this is appropriate now, do they?

deadwood

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

If its a cross or a picture and people are getting offened then wow they're easily offended, should we remove electricity, just incase an amish person gets the hump??

Its hardly the biggest problem facing AGS at the moment is it?

Not the biggest problem by a long shot Fytr. Just an issue i'm interested in, the same way others are interested in a gas-powered, long range 456round/minute non lethal pepper tazer gpmg....or something.:)

sunnyjim

Not being smart here, but are you Garda, deadwood?

Wishbone Ash

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

should we remove electricity, just incase an amish person gets the hump??

....or zips in the garda uniform. AFAIK they find zips offensive.

...or perhaps we should provide a rail outside to tie the pony and trap to just in case an Amish person wishes to visit the station.

deadwood

sunnyjim wrote: »

Not being smart here, but are you Garda, deadwood?

Yup.

axer

Symbols such as the sacret heart and crucifixes have no place in the likes of a garda station unless it is in a private office. It is intimidating to both non-catholic visitors and employees. Same goes for schools too. Would other religons be allowed to put their religous symbols on the wall?
Btw im irish and not a catholic by defection.

Traumadoc

JimiTime wrote: »

While your at it, you may as well rethink the serpent on the pole logo too. Its a reference to Moses and the copper serpent. Some people have too much time on their hands IMO.

I thought it was the rod of Asclepius? and has nothing to do with Moses.

deadwood

sunnyjim wrote: »

Not being smart here, but are you Garda, deadwood?

Why do you ask, by the way? Not being defensive.:D

Wishbone Ash

axer wrote: »

Symbols such as the sacret heart and crucifixes have no place in the likes of a garda station unless it is in a private office. It is intimidating to both non-catholic visitors and employees

How is it intimidating?

I find firearms much more intimidating but I wouldn't expect polices in other countries to remove them to suit me. I also find dogs and horses intimidating so perhaps the Gardai should disband the mounted and canine units.

Jesus wasn't a Roman catholic BTW!

How do you manage in the USA with "In God we trust" on the banknotes?

CO19

Careful now ! you said Jesus there :eek: someone on here might take offense to that if they don't believe in him :rolleyes:....:D

sunnyjim

deadwood wrote: »

Why do you ask, by the way? Not being defensive.:D

Just checking if you were someone who entered a garda station for the first time in their lives, saw a crucifix and decided to start an internet rant!:D:pac:

jhegarty

Lets ban them the day after we ban pubs becuase they offend muslims....

keen

The question is should the guards be religiously impartial, why are so many people going on about offending Muslims

Wishbone Ash

keen wrote: »

The question is should the guards be religiously impartial

Indeed, but Shaw and Evans could still be at large if it wasn't for the religious convictions of a Garda.

the locust

I wouldn't view a religous person as being weak or a walter mitty type at all

i'd think a religious (christian catholic or muslim sikh whatever) cop would be a better cop because
- he's probably better in tune with his morals than his alcoholic colleagues
- he's a better sense of right and wrong
- and a good sense of justice i.e. when something isn't right.

Traumadoc

the locust wrote: »

I wouldn't view a religous person as being weak or a walter mitty type at all

i'd think a religious (christian catholic or muslim sikh whatever) cop would be a better cop because
- he's probably better in tune with his morals than his alcoholic colleagues
- he's a better sense of right and wrong
- and a good sense of justice i.e. when something isn't right.

Thats the sort of rubbish thinking that allowed pedophile monsters in the church to carry on for years.

TheNog

the locust wrote: »

I wouldn't view a religous person as being weak or a walter mitty type at all

i'd think a religious (christian catholic or muslim sikh whatever) cop would be a better cop because
- he's probably better in tune with his morals than his alcoholic colleagues
- he's a better sense of right and wrong
- and a good sense of justice i.e. when something isn't right.

What about the many people who kill others for their faith? Many terrorists align themselves with certain radical faiths in effort to justify murder.

All in all the AGS should play a role like the public companies do. Religious objects are not displayed openly by the company but the employees are allowed to to wear or place religious objects say in a private office or area where that person works.

In regards to the turban debate in the AGS a little while ago, I think that people who are bound by their faith should be allowed to wear them during their work but religious pictures, statues etc should be confined to personal spaces only.

Wishbone Ash

TheNog wrote: »

In regards to the turban debate in the AGS a little while ago, I think that people who are bound by their faith should be allowed to wear them during their work

Just wondering - do you think that they should be exempt from the requirement to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle on a public road?

TheNog

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Just wondering - do you think that they should be exempt from the requirement to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle on a public road?

Not if health and safety of the rider was to be comprimised. It would also be against the law too.

parsi

Ban all religious accoutrements or ban none.

If the Scared Heart & crucifix (are they really still on display?) go then so too should turbans and burkas.

We shouldn't end up with a situation where the majority religion has to defer to a minority.

Public buildings should be totally areligious or else should be free to display religious symbols.

madser

CO19 wrote: »

Why should we ? just incase it might offend a visitor to a station,just incase those 'visitors' to stations don't realise it they're in a country that's predominantly Catholic country so they can expect to see religious stuff,do you think that if we went to say India,Pakistan etc that we should expect them to take down their equivelant of what we stick up ?? No I don't think so,as the saying goes when in Rome .

I don't think this country is predominatly Catholic any more, less than 40 per cent of people attend mass and the rest are just hypocrits, all religious symbolism should be removed from all pubic places.

deadwood

sunnyjim wrote: »

Just checking if you were someone who entered a garda station for the first time in their lives, saw a crucifix and decided to start an internet rant!:D:pac:

Heh, heh. No, sunnyjim.
I'd take down the GAA stuff too, if I wasn't lynched!:)

Wishbone Ash

TheNog wrote: »

It would also be against the law too.

Of course I realise that, but my question was if you think they should be exempt from that statutory requirement (as in the UK)?

CO19

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Of course I realise that, but my question was if you think they should be exempt from that statutory requirement (as in the UK)?

Of course they shouldn't be but give it time and we'll roll over like the UK

Crumble Froo

shouldnt be gotten rid of in case they offend visitors...

they should be gotten rid of because it's completely irrelevant in a public police force.

Vas_Guy

If you go to Saudi, you cannot bring any Christian items into the country with you. At least Ireland lets other religions practice their faith which is a constitionitual right here.

Ladies have to be covered from head to toe in public.

Why should be remove our religeous items from public places to make other faiths feel welcome when they are especially muslims militant when in their own country.

I know a lot of muslims living in Ireland and when they are in Ireland they are "one of the lads" drinking, smoking, etc but back home they are totally different.

wes

As a matter of interest, how does anyone know that people of different faiths will be offended by crosses etc? I am Muslim and have no issue with crosses or Christmas tree's or anything like that (we put up Christmas trees for the kids ourselves, so they can get in on the fun). I have Hindu work friends and they have no such issues with Christian religious symbols. The only time i have heard anyone having such issues, is a crappy news paper article that was probably made up.

axer

wes wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how does anyone know that people of different faiths will be offended by crosses etc? I am Muslim and have no issue with crosses or Christmas tree's or anything like that (we put up Christmas trees for the kids ourselves, so they can get in on the fun). I have Hindu work friends and they have no such issues with Christian religious symbols. The only time i have heard anyone having such issues, is a crappy news paper article that was probably made up.

I don't think it is about offending - I think it is about appropriateness. A public service should not be seen as been a certain religion. If they want to have religious objects around then they should be kept private.

TheNog

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Of course I realise that, but my question was if you think they should be exempt from that statutory requirement (as in the UK)?

I am not sure what statutary requirement you talking about in the UK. If you are asking me if Sikhs should be allowed to wear the turban instead of a motorcycle helmet, again my answer is no cos health and safety of an employee should never be second to religious belief.

The same goes for the health and safety of members of the AGS and the general public where it is second to penny pinching and appearances.