M3 railway bridge at Cannistown seems to be missing

BrianD

Just one issue I am confused about with M£ conditions. The original railway alignment was encroached upon by the old N3 between the junction for Dunboyne (off the N3) and the Black Bull/Fairyhouse cross. The M3 will now run on where the railway was. Assuming that I have this correct, is there any real issue about the Cannistown bridge given that there are more serious issues further south at Fairyhouse Cross?

IIMII

DWCommuter wrote: »

I was always under the impression that the railway was going under the M3 and not over.

That's what is/was supposed to have happened, and that seems to be what may be happening now. But the road will be at grade, not the railway

DWCommuter wrote: »

Maybe IE delayed it all and its now going over.

Can't see it being IÉ in this case - the plans were drawn up at the time, no thanks to them of course

BrianD wrote: »

Just one issue I am confused about with M3 conditions. The original railway alignment was encroached upon by the old N3 between the junction for Dunboyne (off the N3) and the Black Bull/Fairyhouse cross. The M3 will now run on where the railway was. Assuming that I have this correct, is there any real issue about the Cannistown bridge given that there are more serious issues further south at Fairyhouse Cross?

There is plenty of room for the M3 and the line to run together at this point. The nessessary clearance height seems to be built into the Blackbull embankment too, but not the actual physical bridge. Which means they will have to close the R154 to put one in at a later date. If the R154 is closed in the future, Trim traffic will have to route through Dunshaughlin and local traffic through Dunboyne via Batterstown I'd imagine for the duration of the works and then of course you have the costs

Anyway, it may all be irrelevant after the budget!

DWCommuter

Lets take stock of the situation as it now stands.

There has always been a reference to a deviation at Black Bull and this reference was to the realignment of the railway along the short stretch that the old N3 encroached on. It was never a problem as ample land was available. Of course, now that the R154 has been realigned onto an embankment and over the M3, the rail alignment is blocked. As pointed out above, reinstatement would now involve considerably more expense and huge traffic diversions.

Its not easy to get a train through this....

blackbull2.jpg

Further along the line at Drumree, it was also anticipated that the railway would have to be realigned by about 100m. Again no big deal as ample land is available. Next up was Kilmessan where a deviation was needed to clear a housing estate and possibly the original station, now a hotel. Interestingly, the hotel was refused planning permission for an extension a few years back on the grounds that it would prohibit the reopening of the railway.

Of course we have been debating cannistown here for the last few weeks. The deviation here was to accomodate home owners, whose gardens were now part of the original alignment. A minor deviation.

Now when we consider that the original alignment (with the aforementioned deviations) was emerging as the preferred route in December 2007, its quite shocking that the M3 has now had such an impact on this alignment. When the M3 was being planned, concerned locals in cannistown campaigned successfully for retainment of the rail alignment. Whats being built up there now (apparently) doesn't really look like its a serious attempt at protecting the future integrity of the rail alignment. Its also fair to say that during the M3 planning process, other encroachments on the rail line were missed. Ive cited the area around blackbull as an example. Recently Ive been told that other possible encroachments may have been made at Drumree and at an area on the Navan side of Cannistown. The wording used in relation to the navan rail alignment was, "permanently blocked". I havent been out to have a look yet, but I reckon it may be worth a visit. My reckoning is that link road to the new interchange immediately north of the rail alignment at cannistown is built over the line. I think the area may be called Ballybatter, but locals could confirm this.

If IMMII can get out to these areas for a look before I do, then maybe we'll have a better idea. Personally I'm convinced that the M3 has made the original alignment unworkable and is evidence that this Government was never really committed to reopening the line. I said this as early as 2005. Any talk of deviations through Dunshauglin etc are just baloney and possible tools for delay and abandonment of the project.

For the record yet again, this line will never be built.

IIMII

There is another M3 related incursion just beside the old stone bridge at the back of the Old Bridge Inn near Kilcairn. It's the road up the back of the Inn from the N3 to the Balreask Arms. Similar to what they have done at Drumree. As the one at the back of the Old Bridge Inn is off limits due to the road being closed, I haven't seen it but I do believe it is work, cost time and money.

But not in the same league as the Cannistown one if it wasn't built

It's all a joke to be honest. Even if it is reopened (which I would dearly love for the sake of people up here), the sheer wastage by not having done this stuff as part of the M3 scheme will be unforgivable

DWCommuter

The mere fact that the M3 appears to be butchering the alignment at will, when its Government policy to reopen it, is bewildering in its audacity. Dempsey should not be let off the hook on this one. The NRA knew what was going to happen. Cannistown was the only area spotted and I'll bet the job done there is useless to any realistic reopening. IE must know whats going on, but I get the sense that Tom Finn saw the writing on the wall and thats why he was reprimanded for his comments in Navan.

IIMII

This is it. You might not think building a bridge here and there is that big a deal. Until you think of the hassle at Newlands Cross, and I believe that has been put back too now

IIMII

The R154 bridge opened today by the way

DWCommuter

Yeah seen it. What sprung to mind for the railway was, NO WAY THROUGH. I'd love to forget about this, but its the one issue that Ive always been close to and the sheer complacency from MCC and IE is mind boggling. Im gonna check the rail route Vs M3 again. Photograph the **** out of it and bring it to a journo friend of mine for a second look. Somethings not right with this.

dowlingm

Google Maps/Earth imagery doesn't seem to be terrific in that area. Could someone with hardcopy maps use Google Maps or something to give some idea of where all these locations are? I think it might be time to start thinking about abandoning the alignment but the question would be where it could logically be minimally diverted.

There have been holy wars pushed through less vigorously than this fecking M3.

Victor

The maps on maps.live.com are a bit better for that area - use the Bird's Eye View option (Cannistown is right at the edge of the Bird's Eye View so if you go further south, it reverts to a map). http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=sy2f4ygf9pr4&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=27943303&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

You can also try http://maps.epa.ie/InternetMapViewer/mapviewer.aspx

Cannistown is a few km south of Navan and also know as Kennastown.

IIMII

dowlingm wrote: »

Could someone with hardcopy maps use Google Maps or something to give some idea of where all these locations are?

There is a map here. And that pit is getting seriously deep. It's the bridge alright

spacetweek

DWCommuter wrote: »

Yeah seen it. What sprung to mind for the railway was, NO WAY THROUGH.

What does everyone think of this post? More cryptic comments about "embankments on the R154" in preparation for the railway. But like people keep pointing out, without the underpass, you'd have to close the M3 while you constructed it.

IIMII

Not the M3, but the R154 would have to close as would the R125.. Should have been stuck in from the start. It's the absence of a bridge in Cannistown that would have caused the M3 to close, but that or a version of it is being built by the looks of things

Should be possible to slide one under the road without closing it!

Stroke Politics

IIMII wrote: »

There is a map here. And that pit is getting seriously deep. It's the bridge alright

I have never seen that site before, when was it set up?

DWCommuter

Stroke Politics wrote: »

I have never seen that site before, when was it set up?

Very recently.

Its a great timeline of events and info, but in terms of anything it may say thats positive about a reopening of this line, well that's just opinion and spin, from and to the politicians. Anyone close to this project and with no agenda, will stand by the reality that says it will never happen and the M3 has made it even more difficult for future generations.

Great site though and badly needed.

DWCommuter

Ive read the oral hearing and some other documents about the cannistown section and then I read them again and again and again. I hope the following might explain the cannistown conundrum.

1.IE were satisfied with going over the M3 at cannistown, because the road was being built just below the grade of the railway and the original railway approached the M3 site on an embankment. The M3 design team were leaving it to IE to build this bridge if a future reopening came off. IE withdrew their objection to the M3 at cannistown, on the basis of a rail bridge being the best interface of rail and motorway at this point. (April 2001) That is IEs last involvement.
2. The Bellinter residents association objected to this bridge on the grounds of the cost of reopening the Navan line. They wanted the horizontal preservation of the rail alignment by placing the M3 on an embankment. (Rail under M3 as originally preferred by IE in August 2000)
3. The NRA people explained that to put the motorway on an embankment at this point would be far more unsightly and a visual intrusion.

So the M3 went ahead at grade through cannistown, while ABP upheld the rail under motorway preference of the residents and what everyone failed to realise was that this actually plays havoc with the railways horizontal alignment and prohibits it from clearing the nearby realigned local road. Thats why this box structure is leaving the horizontal alignment of the railway up to 20 metres lower than it is on either side. Yes MCC and the NRA have just done it by the book, but that should not excuse MCC. IE are the biggest criminals in this as they have taken a minimal interest in it during the important stages. They had no involvement in the current structure at cannistown. ABP have also lacked proper advice.

This box structure is a waste of time, effort and money. Furthermore the blatant obstructions elsewhere are in complete contradiction to MCC policy. Regardless of a definitive route still to be decided, MCC were actively promoting protection of the alignment. The case involving the station house hotel in kilmessan is clear evidence of this. In other areas such as the M3, they didn't give a damn. Thats the conumdrum of all this. MCC talked up the alignment with one mouth and butchered it with another mouth. In summary....

1. The alignment is blocked at, Black bull, Drumree and Kilcairn, with sewer pipes in Dunsany.
2. The cannistown structure is useless, as the M3 is not on an embankment.
3. In engineering terms, these things are perhaps, but not definately surmountable, but the added cost is prohibitive and clear as crystal evidence that the Navan rail project has been neglected by MCC, IE and Government. The reasons are a combination of disinterest, ignorance, agenda and maybe even downright lies.

There is no role for logic in relation to this project. Its a joke.

IIMII

If they were put on trial for having thought about how to protect the Navan line, I doubt there would be enough evidence to find them guilty!

Well only 5 months left to the next offering, the feasability study which going on rumours locally may include an east of Dunshaughlin deviation...

I wonder will details of costs for Blackbull R154, R125, Kilcairn and sinking the alignment at Cannistown be included. Not to mention shifting the pipes at Dunsany??

Cool Mo D

DWCommuter wrote: »

Ive read the oral hearing and some other documents about the cannistown section and then I read them again and again and again. I hope the following might explain the cannistown conundrum.

1.IE were satisfied with going over the M3 at cannistown, because the road was being built just below the grade of the railway and the original railway approached the M3 site on an embankment. The M3 design team were leaving it to IE to build this bridge if a future reopening came off. IE withdrew their objection to the M3 at cannistown, on the basis of a rail bridge being the best interface of rail and motorway at this point. (April 2001) That is IEs last involvement.
2. The Bellinter residents association objected to this bridge on the grounds of the cost of reopening the Navan line. They wanted the horizontal preservation of the rail alignment by placing the M3 on an embankment. (Rail under M3 as originally preferred by IE in August 2000)
3. The NRA people explained that to put the motorway on an embankment at this point would be far more unsightly and a visual intrusion.

So the M3 went ahead at grade through cannistown, while ABP upheld the rail under motorway preference of the residents and what everyone failed to realise was that this actually plays havoc with the railways horizontal alignment and prohibits it from clearing the nearby realigned local road. Thats why this box structure is leaving the horizontal alignment of the railway up to 20 metres lower than it is on either side. Yes MCC and the NRA have just done it by the book, but that should not excuse MCC. IE are the biggest criminals in this as they have taken a minimal interest in it during the important stages. They had no involvement in the current structure at cannistown. ABP have also lacked proper advice.

This box structure is a waste of time, effort and money. Furthermore the blatant obstructions elsewhere are in complete contradiction to MCC policy. Regardless of a definitive route still to be decided, MCC were actively promoting protection of the alignment. The case involving the station house hotel in kilmessan is clear evidence of this. In other areas such as the M3, they didn't give a damn. Thats the conumdrum of all this. MCC talked up the alignment with one mouth and butchered it with another mouth. In summary....

1. The alignment is blocked at, Black bull, Drumree and Kilcairn, with sewer pipes in Dunsany.
2. The cannistown structure is useless, as the M3 is not on an embankment.
3. In engineering terms, these things are perhaps, but not definately surmountable, but the added cost is prohibitive and clear as crystal evidence that the Navan rail project has been neglected by MCC, IE and Government. The reasons are a combination of disinterest, ignorance, agenda and maybe even downright lies.

There is no role for logic in relation to this project. Its a joke.

Very interesting and informative post.

niallb

DWCommuter wrote: »

1. The alignment is blocked at, Black bull, Drumree and Kilcairn,with sewer pipes in Dunsany....

Which are barely four years old.

murphaph

While we're on about Meath County Council's planning record....Meath Chronicle says incinerator planning files gone missing! :rolleyes:

Stroke Politics

murphaph wrote: »

While we're on about Meath County Council's planning record....Meath Chronicle says incinerator planning files gone missing! :rolleyes:

I saw this headline and thought it might be something to do with them moving down to Abbey Road, but apparently, this file was last seen 2 months ago, so the "moving house" excuse doesn't apply here. If I had the time, the conspiracy theorist in me would go down there to request a look at the planning files for the M3 and the rail line.... If they still have them....

IIMII

The best photo of what has happened with the R154 Trim road and railway is actually the banner photo on the Eurolink M3 website at the link below, on the M3 benefits page:

http://www.eurolink-m3.ie/project_benefits.html

The red line is the alignment.

Ste.phen

I take it the red line is the rail alignment?

IIMII

It is, overlooked mentioning that..

lostexpectation

has-junction-severed-rail-alignment
http://www.meathpost.com/2008/11/05/has-junction-severed-rail-alignment/
well done to those who finally got a paper to cover this story

DWCommuter

And MCC are liars. But fear not as this isn't the last you'll hear about it.

Seth Brundle

Does anyone know if the NRA or IR (or even anyone within Leinster Hse.) have made any comment on this by now?

Sponge Bob

kbannon wrote: »

Does anyone know if the NRA or IR (or even anyone within Leinster Hse.) have made any comment on this by now?

Why of course they have . Noel Dempsey of all people and he was thanked by Mary Wallace for it . From this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054948917

By Anne Casey, Meath Chronicle, Sat, 6th March 1999

The proposed new rail service to Navan and Dublin took a step closer to reality this week as the government looked set to approve a massive overhaul of the suburban rail system.

The Minister for the Environment, Noel Dempsey, has predicted that a rail link with Navan should be in place in less than five years, and insisted that any passenger railway coming into the county could not be allowed to stop short of Navan.

The Cabinet is believed to be ready to approve a confidential report on suburban rail, which provides for a new inland rail link to Navan, serving Clonsilla and Dunboyne.

Proposals are also being discussed regarding the possibility of taking a route through Blanchardstown and Dunshaughlin to Ratoath and Ashbourne.

According to Minister Dempsey, bringing the rail service to Navan is at the top of the agenda. He pointed out that the Strategic Planning Initiative signalled that Navan was to become a dormitory town of Dublin and said that any housing initiatives would have to be linked with public transport developments.

It is still at the top of Noels agenda even though it has been delayed just a little . Why don't you Meath people thank the man. He so deserves it.

It is almost entirely thanks to Noel that Meath is worth living in

DWCommuter

And here is the so called railway structure at cannistown. Note its already flooded and they are constantly pumping water out of it. For newcomers the original rail line used to run at a level just above the top of this concrete blackhole. To the left it approaches on an embankment. Futureproffing? Eh...sorry, but no. Just sopping.

To put it in perspective, the first snap shows the M3 in exactly the same spot last Summer. It was getting ready for Tar. Then they seemed to realise that a "structure" had to go in and thats whats in the second snap. But its a waste of time and absolutely nobody can confirme what was actually meant to be built here and how. It like something out of the X-Files and the amount of mulders and Scullys up in MCC is really funny.

cannistown2.jpg
Just look at the lovely surface ready for some tar in June 08. Note the original railway road bridge on the right.

cannistownblackhole.jpg
As of today, the new structure is in, despite the fact that they nearly forgot about it. But don't get too excited as its usless anyway.