M3 railway bridge at Cannistown seems to be missing

Xadtek

Ok, thanks for that. I'm surprised they felt the need to even bother with such a ruse. It's not like the Navan line needs any more obfuscation or delaying to kill it. There's surely enough nails in the coffin already if any plan for a Cannistown bridge is now gone. I guess they must feel it advances some rezoning plan for Dunshaughlin, although as far as I'm aware much of that land is already rezoned or likely to be in the future anyway.

Thing that gets me as mentioned earlier is the complete lack of interest in exploring this story by either the local or national media. An ABP ruling is ignored without any satisfactory explanation from IE and no one feels it's worth highlighting. I mean the Navan line is in the NDP, Transport 21 and the Program for Government, the Minister for Transport is from the constituency yet no one feels there's a story there.

Stroke Politics

Xadtek wrote: »

Ok, thanks for that. I'm surprised they felt the need to even bother with such a ruse. It's not like the Navan line needs any more obfuscation or delaying to kill it. There's surely enough nails in the coffin already if any plan for a Cannistown bridge is now gone. I guess they must feel it advances some rezoning plan for Dunshaughlin, although as far as I'm aware much of that land is already rezoned or likely to be in the future anyway.

Thing that gets me as mentioned earlier is the complete lack of interest in exploring this story by either the local or national media. An ABP ruling is ignored without any satisfactory explanation from IE and no one feels it's worth highlighting. I mean the Navan line is in the NDP, Transport 21 and the Program for Government, the Minister for Transport is from the constituency yet no one feels there's a story there.

The only story here is that Dempsey hasn't had the cajones to come out and admit that the railway was never going to, and will never go ahead. FF has a secure 2 seats here until infinity. Bruton was a south Meath representative, which gave the two big developers & their cohorts free reign in the Navan Electoral Area. They've even spiked the LAP's for Navan preventing the development of parks to ensure that they have control over the whole towns development. If there was a credible alternative at all, or if FF's 2 Meath West seats came under threat there might be some movement on it, but it won't happen in our lifetime.....

Xadtek

Is it just that I'm so close to it that the rot seems especially bad in Meath or are things just as bad throughout the rest of the country? I mean Meath just really seems to take this kind of stuff to another level. There's no end to it and the stink rises from just about every project you look at once you start to do the slightest bit of digging.

Today Transparency International released its annual Corruption Perceptions Index in which it stated Ireland was the 16th least corrupt country in the world out of 180 countries. I know things are bad in the Zimbabwe's and Turkmenistans of this world, but I really shudder to think just how bad things are there if we're the 16th least corrupt and this is the carry on throughout the country.

lostexpectation

Stroke Politics wrote: »

This deviation to the other side of Dunshaughlin is only kite-flying. Big House & Co has no interest in assisting public transport, this is just a rusze being thrown in to obfuscate, delay and ultimately destroy the Navan-Clonsilla rail route.

All development in Navan and environs is developer-led, and they do not like competition, so we can forget about a train that will complete for business with The Sacred Motorway.....

so having both rail and motorway isn't a benefit to a development?

Stroke Politics

lostexpectation wrote: »

so having both rail and motorway isn't a benefit to a development?

Having both is a development on the present situation. But having both does not benefit developers enough to sate their greed, hence the kite-flying exercise to delay/frustrat a rail alternative and give people meaningful choice......

lostexpectation

there are probably multiple developers as you said, i still don't know why its not a genuine benefit to the these housing developers to have both rail and motorway, kite flying exercise or no.

Stroke Politics

lostexpectation wrote: »

there are probably multiple developers as you said, i still don't know why its not a genuine benefit to the these housing developers to have both rail and motorway, kite flying exercise or no.

Because the original railway alignment, upon which the re-opened line was to be built on, does not go through their land. Simple as........

spacetweek

Xadtek wrote: »

Thing that gets me as mentioned earlier is the complete lack of interest in exploring this story by either the local or national media. An ABP ruling is ignored without any satisfactory explanation from IE and no one feels it's worth highlighting. I mean the Navan line is in the NDP, Transport 21 and the Program for Government, the Minister for Transport is from the constituency yet no one feels there's a story there.

The lack of interest is probably due to the fact that everything on this thread is just speculation: there's been no official confirmation that any alignment has been severed and after the gov repeating mantra-like that they were gonna reopen Navan, they can't suddenly go "Oh sorry, we built a motorway in the way.". This would be disadvantageous to their political careers and it's all about the political career with these guys.

Xadtek

spacetweek wrote: »

The lack of interest is probably due to the fact that everything on this thread is just speculation:

To be fair, I think there's more than just speculation in this thread. There are several photographs and maps showing that something is clearly amiss.

spacetweek wrote: »

there's been no official confirmation that any alignment has been severed and after the gov repeating mantra-like that they were gonna reopen Navan, they can't suddenly go "Oh sorry, we built a motorway in the way.". This would be disadvantageous to their political careers and it's all about the political career with these guys.

I know the government can't suddenly go and admit that. I wouldn't expect them to. But surely some journalist or opposition politican somewhere can see an opportunity for a story or a chance to have a blast at the government. There is An Bord Pleanala ruling that is being flouted. You'd think that might have some significance, I guess not anymore...

IIMII

spacetweek wrote: »

there's been no official confirmation that any alignment has been severed

Yeah, and that's why they have started laying the tarmac there. Take a drive up, you can't miss it. At what point does denial stop and the truth in front of your eyes become undeniable? There is no bridge, and no planning permission has ever been applied for for an alternatively designed bridge.

So if the haven't built the bridge in the plans, and they haven't applied for permission to build a different one, then no bridge is being built...

In relation to the deviation, I think there is a simple answer to the sudden interest. The M3 tolls will effect already weak house sales and to flog houses you need positive selling points. The only one on the horizon is the railway

Dunshaughlin has been frozen for development under planning guidelines due to lack of services. Developers build and and Estate agents sell. Arguably the sales based on the M3 coming will wither when the reality of the toll becomes known and the only shot in the arm for residential development is the railway

Remember each time the railway is announced, there is a flurry of planning requests etc for places like Kilmessan

This isn't about the railway, it's about house sales. But who cares if it is built, which isn't the case at the moment.

I wouldn't be surprised if the government goes for it, as the developer proposal is to reroute from Pace all the way to the north of Dunshaughlin. Which means that the government would be off the hook from any delays being as a result of the M3 and new roads for this section

90% of the Navan railway line north of Dunboyne had been compromised in the past 3 years - between the M3 at Cannistown, the Dunshaughlin Sewerage Scheme from Drumree to Kilmessan, and the M3 road links from Dunshaughlin to Dunboyne, huge obstacles have been added. That's a impeded stretch running from South Navan to North Dunboyne, approximately 17 miles of the 18.5 miles of the line.

The undeniable reality is that history suggests that this line is not for reopening under this or any other alternative government.

IIMII

Stroke Politics wrote: »

All development in Navan and environs is developer-led, and they do not like competition, so we can forget about a train that will complete for business with The Sacred Motorway.....

Yes, but interests between the tolling company and the developers converged whilst the M3 was being built.

The developers sold houses on the bases of the road being built, and as there wasn't particularly a widespread awareness of the toll (particularly as Dubliner househunters didn't pass through it to get to Navan to view houses), it wasn't an issue

Now with the road all but completed, the developers couldn't care less about the toll company and the paths are now diverging, particularly as the toll is a big negative when trying to flog houses

DWCommuter

As of today and a few months after the original photos were posted, here is the state of play in relation to the M3.

This first photo is taken from the new flyover at Cannistown looking towards Dublin. As you can see they are already laying tarmacadam.

cannistown1.jpg

In this photo we again see the M3 in relation to the Navan rail alignment. The original railway bridge is on the right of the picture and is in the direction of Navan. No sign of any kind of structure for the railway. It may go over at a later date, but this will require considerably more engineering and tonnes more money than was necessary if the correct and sensible methods had been followed.

cannistown2.jpg

But of course as I said in previous posts the situation is a lot worse than just Cannistown and was completely missed by those in favour of protecting the rail alignment. In this photo we can see how the M3 and its associated roads blatantly blocks the rail alignment from Pace to Navan at the Black Bull area. The road in the foreground is the current road to Trim from the current N3. The embankment in the photo is the new realigned Trim road and is slap bang on top of the rail alignment. Beyond this embankment is the original railway embankment to Navan. Completely blocked? Yes it sure is.

blackbull2.jpg

This is a second view of the Black Bull area. The Trim road embankment completely blocks the original alignment and to the left of the picture it connects up with the current Trim road. (which itself was realigned after the railway closed.) Rerouting the railway here would be costly. No doubt about it. And uneccessary if proper protocol was followed. But then we all know that a railway to Navan was just Fianna Fail bull**** talk.

blackbull1.jpg

This thread should never die as its an inditement to the skullduggery that our Government is involved in. If they can do it in a mickey mouse set up like the fantasy railway to Navan, then they can do it in an area that costs lives. Oh wait they already do that in the health service. QED.

Nostradamus

Sickening.

We al know what Fianna Fail are all about and we have come to expect no less from that shower.

But people also have to remember this happened under the Greens watch as well. They are just a guilty and can no longer ever again claim the high moral ground on public transport after this.


Eamon Ryan, Trevor Sargent and John Gormley

BrianD

Hi, if this is a breach of the planning permission grant, does anybody know if the relevant bodies have been formally notified of the breach for enforcement?

Can anybody post the planning condition that relates to Cannistown so that others can cut and paste it and use it when writing to the relevant politicians and authorities?

DWCommuter

I agree. The Green Party as so called saviours of public transport should be hauled out aswell.

As for the ABP ruling, here it is as posted on page 5 of this thread.

ABP%20copy.jpg

IIMII

Meath Chronicle, 1st October 2008




A Meath County Councillor has appealed to Transpost Minister Noel Dempsey to “lay down the law” to Iarnrod Eireann with regard to progressing the rail link from Pace (Dunboyne) to Navan.
Independent Meath councillor Brian Fitzgerald said Mr Dempsey had to insist that, if Iarnrod Eireann was not going to progress the project, it must be handed over to some other body or consortium.
The minister’s office yesterday (Tuesday) said the position on the rail line to Navan had not changed since a statement Mr Dempsey issued in late July 2008. In response to a question then on whether the link would proceed, the minister had replied “yes”.
As the 14th October budget looms amid reports of extremely harsh cut-backs and threats to capital projects, Cllr Fitzgerald and other Meath councillors called on the Transport Minister to confirm the project’s future.
A progress report on the line was presented to Navan area elected members at their September meeting. Some of the points made were that the project required “significantly greater funding than allowed for in the Transport 21 Budget”.
Also outlined in the report was the emergence of an option to the original 'emerging preferred route’ established for the line. That route follows the pre-existing rail line with local diversions at Black Bull, Drumree, Kilmessan and Cannistown.
The optional route is to the east of Dunshaughlin. This, according to the report presented, was also shown “to have potential to be delivered but was subject to further study to confirm engineering feasibility and cost to a similar level of confidence as was developed for the emerging preferred route”. Consequently, Iarnrod Eireann was selecting consultants for carry out the further study with a time frame of about six to eight months. This study would also examine optimum locations for rail stations, particularly those in Dunshaughlin and Navan.
Cllr Fitzgerald stressed the importance not just to Navan but also Dunshaughlin of proceeding with the link. Should it not go ahead, it would be the county’s greatest “let down” as a number of towns, including Dunshaughlin, were geared up for it to be delivered.
Sinn Fein councillor Joe Reilly said that, for Meath to advance, the rail line was one of the most vital projects and must be provided.
Cllr Jim Holloway of Fine Gael said that serious concern had been raised that the current economic climate could mean that the railway will be delayed. “Any proposal to delay the construction of the railway to Navan must be vigorously opposed,” said Cllr Holloway. “A decision to delay this project is a decision to abandon this project and must be read as such. And delay would mean a betrayal of the people of Meath and Navan, in particular.”
Cllr Holloway added that, essentially what new house-owners who came to Navan and Meath had done was place their trust in Government to deliver jobs and the railway.
Commuting figures showed that the jobs did not come to Navan as promised, he said. Also, the railway had been put to the bottom of the list of projects in Transport 21. The delay in finalising the route was “clearly a device for abandoning the railway to Navan town”, he claimed.
In relation to the extension of the line to Navan, Transport Minister, Mr Dempsey’s statement in July was that Iarnrod Eireann completed a scoping study in December 2007 in which they examined nine routes and concluded that the project was economically viable. Two of these routes were found to be suitable and are now subject of a study to produce a comparative business case, which will be submitted to the department when it is completed. It is anticipated that phase two of the line will be opened and operation in 2015 in accordance with Transport 21, he added.

lostexpectation

the councillors bring this up often enough and we see it in the papers but i can't remember them bringin up the issues in this thread about the physicals blockages to the line, let alone the budget are they aware of them?

Stroke Politics

lostexpectation wrote: »

the councillors bring this up often enough and we see it in the papers but i can't remember them bringin up the issues in this thread about the physicals blockages to the line, let alone the budget are they aware of them?

No. All councillors like Mr. Fitzgerald remember are that they have to face the electorate in local elections in 8 months time.....

lostexpectation

welll they are trying to appear to fight for the line but they are also suggesting the possibilty that it will never happen, so why not mention it has been severily hindered physically? it would make em sound more intetlligent, they always like pointing out something their rivals haven't and being its vanguard.

DWCommuter

Expect this line to be eh..."delayed" in the budget next week, followed by Dempseys speech to Navan about how tough decisions have to be made. But let me say this now, the budget has nothing to do with this line not reopening. It was never on the cards anyway. They'll talk about deviations east of Dunshaughlin for the next 20 years and then some. Grab your keys and hit the M3.

Stroke Politics

DWCommuter wrote: »

Expect this line to be eh..."delayed" in the budget next week, followed by Dempseys speech to Navan about how tough decisions have to be made. But let me say this now, the budget has nothing to do with this line not reopening. It was never on the cards anyway. They'll talk about deviations east of Dunshaughlin for the next 20 years and then some. Grab your keys and hit the M3.

...and your wallet.

Spot on my friend. We can't have any public transport competition affecting the car park revenue in Navan's new shopping centre beside the train line, now can we...?

ecaf

Slightly off-topic, but the old stone railway bridge at Cannistown was demolished yesterday!
I think it is a pity, it would have been a lovely old monument to view from the new road, and it (isn't) wasn't in the way of the new road or anything.

They will probably come along and a new monument in its place or something silly to waste more money.

Sponge Bob

Noel Dempseys statue , erected by the eternally grateful people of Meath, must go somewhere after all .

trellheim

I thought they were going to put a massive statue on the M3, like the Boyne Bridge on the M1, where you drive between his legs

IIMII

ecaf wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but the old stone railway bridge at Cannistown was demolished yesterday!

It has, and they have started to excavate a large pit for the want of a better term where it was. Something is happening, and the only thing I can think of is that maybe they are going to sink the alignment. Or it could be something completely unrelated but I doubt that. The foundations for that statue maybe..:) I haven't got a pic, but I'll get one.

DWCommuter

According to RUI its all been a fuss about nothing and all will be revealed in the next two weeks. I'll have a look at this "pit" tomorrow though. If they are sinking the alignment a box structure is still required under the M3 and the alignment will have to go under the recently realigned local road on the Dublin side. Im still not convinced.

IIMII

So this will need to be sunk below the level of this if that is the case..

Can those in the know in RUI enlighten the rest of us what's to be revealed if it is the original bridge from the hearings? Why didn't they mention this before if they knew there wasn't a problem?

Fantastic, great if it is a fuss about nothing. Doesn't explain why the NRA recently said in the local media that they are only designing a bridge now. And I remember hearing from MCC that a fuss was being made about nothing in relation to the Dunshaughlin Sewerage Scheme, so lets see what happens

If the NRA's word was that they were only now designing a bridge, and if IÉ said that it was nothing to do with them, it was the NRA's problem then that they were giving out the inaccurate information.

I'd love to see what they are going to build, if it is the bridge in the original planning condition etc. It would be a big drop vertically as the road level itself is a good metre below what the level of the trackbed was before they built through it.

Either way, though the alignment may be preserved horizontally it definitely will be dropped to a serious depth.

An observation from looking at the 'pit' is that it seems to be a little off the old alignment. If they are sinking it, is it possible they are altering the alignment to avoid the backs of the houses/workshop on the Navan side, as well as those houses that have they back gardens on the alignment on the Bective Gaelic grounds side? It's a good distance from the viaduct so if they do intend to use that again if the line is built, I'd imagine it wouldn't be a problem

DWCommuter

IIMII wrote: »

So this will need to be sunk below the level of this if that is the case..

Can those in the know in RUI enlighten the rest of us what's to be revealed if it is the original bridge from the hearings? Why didn't they mention this before if they knew there wasn't a problem?

Fantastic, great if it is a fuss about nothing. Doesn't explain why the NRA recently said in the local media that they are only designing a bridge now. And I remember hearing from MCC that a fuss was being made about nothing in relation to the Dunshaughlin Sewerage Scheme, so lets see what happens

If the NRA's word was that they were only now designing a bridge, and if IÉ said that it was nothing to do with them, it was the NRA's problem then that they were giving out the inaccurate information.

I'd love to see what they are going to build, if it is the bridge in the original planning condition etc. It would be a big drop vertically as the road level itself is a good metre below what the level of the trackbed was before they built through it.

Either way, though the alignment may be preserved horizontally it definitely will be dropped to a serious depth.

An observation from looking at the 'pit' is that it seems to be a little off the old alignment. If they are sinking it, is it possible they are altering the alignment to avoid the backs of the houses/workshop on the Navan side, as well as those houses that have they back gardens on the alignment on the Bective Gaelic grounds side? It's a good distance from the viaduct so if they do intend to use that again if the line is built, I'd imagine it wouldn't be a problem

As regards your pictures and question, the answer is yes. As for RUI, well I got no definitive answers from MCC or ABP to my queries. Maybe RUI did. Or maybe they are just foraging off the scraps of info that they get. I did know that something was due to start at the end of Sept. Now its two weeks according to Mark Gleeson of RUI, who has implied, on more than one occasion, that its all a fuss about nothing without explaining why. Maybe the NRA are organising a "parting of the M3" by Moses. Who noses!

IIMII

Can't see what the secret is, especially if it is RUI with the nose - we know what NRA are supposed to be doing, and they are either doing it or they are not. I presume it's reasonable to deduct that Mark knows that they are building the originally planned bridge or a version thereof

It wouldn't surprise me, but I remain unconvinced that they had intended to build any bridge - every other bridge structure along the M3 is all but finished, and yet nothing has happened at Cannistown until now.

Maybe RUI do only have scraps of info - still can't understand why anyone would sit on any info if they have it though.

All very mysterious

DWCommuter

I was always under the impression that the railway was going under the M3 and not over. Maybe IE delayed it all and its now going over. But its gonna be some bridge if thats the case. The next few weeks will reveal it all.