Circle Line to Close, Blame unfair competion from Dublin Bus

AlekSmart

It should be readily apparent from Minister Dempsey`s response to markf909 that neither he nor ANY of his Departmental Senior Officials regard the current post Circle Line situation as anything worth getting upset about.

That response,carefully drafted to meet all possible guidelines on accucracy,is enough to comply with the departmental conventions on such communications.

However,as other posters point out,it TOTALLY ignores the reality of the situation on-the-ground.
As the current Dublin Airport fiasco is continuing to prove we are uniquely gifted with a Department of Transport which is repeatedly failing to perform its duties in a responsible,competent manner.

This failure has become evident on repeated occasions since 2002 and covers the spectrum of Public Transport nationally,but particularly in Dublin.

My personal belief is that there are serious grounds now in existance to doubt the professional competence of several high ranking Civil Service officials and perhaps even the Minister.

I am not referring to the usual political point making but rather to the lack of Administrative Acumen which is now accepted as the norm in dealings with this agency of State.

I also believe that decisions taken at Departmental level to decline to become involved in addressing the current Public Transport defecit are of their nature acting against the public good.

It is my understanding that Civil Servants are precluded from acting in such a manner without risking sanction.

What is lacking in the present situation is some form of external overview of the Departments current torpor,taken by an agency with the power to take action against the Senior Officials whose decisions are quite possibly being influenced by extraneous matters not within their remit.

It is for example,somewhat incredible to realize that Minister Dempsey remains unconvinced that Dublin Bus has a need for the 350 extra vehicles as agreed by all parties to the Public Transport Forum report delivered to Minister Mary O Rourke.

This report also agreed to the protocols for the commencement of increased Private involvement in Public Bus Service operation.
The forum report was compiled by the Widest cross section of those interested and involved in Dublin Public Transport provision.

However following Ms O Rourkes departure the incoming Minister Seamus Brennan (RIP) declined to accept it`s recommendations,a decision I believe to have set in motion a freefall to the current shambloic state.

The point I am attempting to make is that Minister Dempsey CURRENTLY has sufficient statistical information and statutory powers to intervene IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST but is not of a mind to do so.

I can only surmise that this reluctance,equalled by that of his senior departmental officials is driven by a desire to satisfy some COMMERCIAL INTERESTS involved in the industry.

This ongoing policy of considering the needs of Commercial Interests to the detriment of the greater Public good is at best unethical and could in the future lead to allegations of a most unsavoury nature. :cool: :cool: :eek:

J-B

I have also written to all the local politicians and the Minister. It will be interesting to see what happens arising from the meeting on 16th July. It seems to me that there is sufficient momentum between disgruntled Celbridge commuters to keep the pressure on. We need to campaign for both increased 67x services and some re routing of the Dublin Bus service given that several estates in Celbridge now have no real access to public transport at all (eg Raphaels Manor, Oldtown Mill etc). The 120 bus service is not really serving Celbridge at all given that all the buses are full by the time they reach Celbridge.

Claire81

Does anyone know if the meeting on Wednesday 16th July is a public meeting and if so, has a time and venue been set?

J-B

I got the impression it was a private meeting between the local representatives and Dublin Bus etc but could be wrong about that.

I received a response from the Minister yesterday saying that they are committed to reforming the legislation in this area etc.

There was no mention whatsoever of the additional licences that Dublin Bus have apparently applied for and in fact the letter stated that my original letter (which amongst other things raised all the points previously made by everyone regarding the inadequacy of the 67 service and route) was being passed to Dublin Bus for them to deal with. I am going to wait to see what happens arising from the meeting tomorrow and then respond.

Obviously any legislative change in this area is to be welcomed but we also need concrete action in terms of increased services as soon as possible.

markpb

J-B wrote: »

I received a response from the Minister yesterday saying that they are committed to reforming the legislation in this area etc.

Just like the last five ministers have said

markf909

I also got the stock "ministerial" response from the Head of "Public Transport Regulation" within the DoT!

He kindly noted that I sent a letter to the minster as well as himself and sent me back the exact same letter as I got from Noel. How kind.
He actually exists, but what he does in his job would be a mystery to most of us ordinary bus users.

I've not had time to draft a response but I may do after the meeting takes place.

markpb

markf909 wrote: »

He actually exists, but what he does in his job would be a mystery to most of us ordinary bus users.

The more I hear about the 41x, the 141 and the Circle Line debacle, the more I suspect a few episodes of Yes, Minister would explain what his job entails.

markf909

markpb wrote: »

The more I hear about the 41x, the 141 and the Circle Line debacle, the more I suspect a few episodes of Yes, Minister would explain what his job entails.

But Yes minster was funny.

J-B

Just to let everyone know, I got an update on the meeting on Weds. Apparently Dublin Bus have submitted an application for a licence to run an extra 3 67X buses in the morning and in the evening. This is currently with the Department (interesting given that the Minister's response to me made no reference to this!) Kildare County Council are writing to the Minister to ask him to address this issue.

The need for other areas in Celbridge to be covered by Dublin Bus was also discussed but it was not clear in the response received as to whether a licence application had actually been made for this service.

So I'm planning to write to Dublin Bus to get them to clarify exactly what they have applied for and to ask them, if they have not done already, to apply for a licence to run an additional route along the route covered previously by the Circle Line. I'm also planning to write back to the Minister to request details on the status of the licence applications. Anyone want to join me?

AlekSmart

It was pointed out to me today by a member of the Bus Enthusiast fraternity (Anorak) that most of the former Circle Line Bus vehicles are currently still in service.

However it seems they are now engaged in somewhat more lucrative private contract work serving the cruise liners calling at Dublin Port.

The vehicles,both single and double decks have had the old CL decals removed and some have had a fresh coat of white paint applied.

Could there be perhaps a somewhat more mundane explaination for the voluntary liquidation of CLB than being "Run off the Road by Dublin Bus" scenario espoused by the former proprietor on RTE`s various programmes last week ?

Perhaps buses full of Cruise Line passengers which have been hired and paid for up front is a more lucrative proposition than picking up a few commuters at €2 a pop along Nutgrove and Dundrum ?

This recession may well turn up a few more such occurrences yet :pac:

tvnutz

J-B wrote: »

Just to let everyone know, I got an update on the meeting on Weds. Apparently Dublin Bus have submitted an application for a licence to run an extra 3 67X buses in the morning and in the evening. This is currently with the Department (interesting given that the Minister's response to me made no reference to this!) Kildare County Council are writing to the Minister to ask him to address this issue.

The need for other areas in Celbridge to be covered by Dublin Bus was also discussed but it was not clear in the response received as to whether a licence application had actually been made for this service.

So I'm planning to write to Dublin Bus to get them to clarify exactly what they have applied for and to ask them, if they have not done already, to apply for a licence to run an additional route along the route covered previously by the Circle Line. I'm also planning to write back to the Minister to request details on the status of the licence applications. Anyone want to join me?

extra 67X's still won't connect Celbridge and Lucan with Ballsbridge where a huge amount of people from both towns work.

bazzer

tvnutz wrote: »

extra 67X's still won't connect Celbridge and Lucan with Ballsbridge where a huge amount of people from both towns work.

... unless they apply for a version of the 67X specifically operating to or via Ballsbridge. Look at how many versions of the 25X there are, so it's not impossible.

AlekSmart

Quote J-B "This is currently with the Department (interesting given that the Minister's response to me made no reference to this!)"

The lack of Ministerial reference to an important aspect of the current situation should not surprise regular observers of the Transport scene.

It is a matter of public record that the current Secretary General of the Dept of Transport is quite selective about what aspects of Public Transport policy deserve a Ministerial briefing.

The debacle of the Aer Lingus/Shannon Airport issue plus aspects of the Integrated Ticketing issue have all to clearly demonstrated how this Department is being run as several disconnected sections,very few of which even communicate with each other,let alone the Minister or in turn theTravelling Public.

The current situation as described by tvnutz and as mentioned by bazzer is EASILY addressed by the Licencing Section of the Department REQUESTING Bus Atha Cliath to operate services on this alignment.

If Bus Atha Cliath were to decline this request and given the incumbent Licence Holder (CLB) is unable to meet the conditions of their still-extant Licence,it is then open to the Minister under the provisions of the 1932 Transport Act to DIRECT Bus Atha Cliath to meet the all too obvious public service requirement which now exists.

The Important issue here is that ALL of the relevant powers currently exist under the 1932 Act which confer upon the Minister for Transport many strong regulatory powers to be used at his/her complete discretion.

Why is the Minister so poorly informed as to his wide ranging powers ?
What advice EXACTLY is being given to him?
What is the Departmental reasoning for advising (or failing to so do) of his options/powers ?

I wonder if there are any interested Transport related Journalists out there who are prepared to read the 1932 Transport Act and ask the appropriate questions at the opportune moment ? :eek:

lostexpectation

reading this explained alot for me, i still can't get over the guy mentionling the deadly accident in his press release

http://busrage.com/2008/06/20/circle-line-bus-company-ceases-operations-in-dublin/

jimmycrackcorm

just heard on the news that extra 25a/x and 67 busses are on the way. It would make sense to have some cover ballsbridge route that circle line did as there was a proven demand

bazzer

Which news was that? Can't find anything about it anywhere .....

jimmycrackcorm

It was on either FM104 or 98FM news at 7 pm. A local politician was also quoting how great it would be for the people of Cellbridge.

J-B

One of the local TDs wrote to me to say that the licence application was granted by the Department. There will be an additional 3 morning peak services and 2 evening peak services on the 67A route. He did not have a start date for those services.

He is aware this is an interim measure only and will be seeking further meetings with Dublin Bus to raise the following issues:

• the need to reroute some 67 services around Celbridge
• additional services to cope with the demand from September
• additional express services which bypass Lucan and Chapelizod.

I didn't realise the issue about the lack of service to Ballsbridge but obviously that should be raised also. I suppose its good that they have put some extra buses on but getting the non express bus in the morning is not exactly the quickest way of getting to work!

angrycommuter80

We have definetely one local representative to thank for this, he worked like a trojan on this matter. The labour party cllr was the only one to listen to many peoples issues on this matter and also worked along side dublin bus and other local party reps. From my understanding this interim measure was agreed following last Wedensdays meetign and we can be thankfull for those extra buses in the morning that will take the pressure off a lot of commuters.

markf909

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0723/bus.html

All over Morning Ireland.

Should someone tell RTE about the Patton Flyer also :rolleyes:

angrycommuter80

Can anyone please explain when all these extra Dublin buses that CL are saying saturated their routes actually were. i can certainly say the Celbridge route was never saturated! Are they speaking of extra 25x??? Surely what we need to do is move on from even referring to circle lines moans and excuses and giving them the publciity they are craving after deserting thousands of passengers.

Rawr

Indeed. Where were these 'auxillery services' which were operated on a 'permanent basis'?

I would have loved nothing more than to take advantage of these serivces (as Leixlip never had CL).

But this is terrible news from RTE, because it may give the DoT a wonderful excuse to bury it's head even further in the sand and forsake North Kildare's commuters for another few years. I really hope not.

bazzer

While I don't know the details of route licensing, who's to say that only one bus can cover one single departure? For example, maybe the 0715 from Celbridge was getting so overloaded that Dublin Bus decided to make two buses operate the same journey to cope with loadings.

Maybe that was a sort of loophole that Dublin Bus took advantage of. If so, fair play. Better than leaving people standing in the rain, rather than satisfying bureaucrats from the department who know shag-all about trying to run a bus service that works.

manc

from RTE.ie

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 10:42
Research by the Department of Transport shows Dublin Bus has been running routes which were not authorised by the Government, in competition with a private operator.

Last month an operator went into liquidation citing unfair competition from the State-owned bus company.

Circle Line ran buses from Lucan and Celbridge through Dublin city centre to Rathfarnham.

The company said from the start of its services in 2002 that Dublin Bus saturated its routes with buses.

A Freedom of Information request by RTÉ News shows the Department of Transport monitored activity in the area.

It found morning services by Dublin Bus almost doubled on the routes operated by Circle Line.

Officials said Dublin Bus services did not comply with its timetables and operated auxiliary services on a permanent basis.

The department wrote to the State bus company on eight occasions warning it was operating unauthorised services.

Dublin Bus responded saying its interpretation of legislation differed from that of the department.

Last month Circle Line went into voluntary liquidation with the loss of 20 jobs.

In a statement Dublin Bus today said it was fully compliant with authorisations for bus routes.

KC61

It would appear that they are discussing the 25X.

Sainttoff

Maybe these people that do these investigations should look at how full the 25x is everytime.

Dublin bus are running extra 25x's as there is a demand for it.
People that makes these decisions in government dont do their homework!


And Circle line never served all parts of South Lucan, so someone had to do it!

angrycommuter80

There is the same if not more of a demand of 67x services than there is for 25x. And there are doubole the amount of 25a services than there are 67a. They need to try travelling to Celbridge daily on a inadequate bus services that go via Lucan, delaying the journey home unneccesarily. They need when discussing this issue to differenciate between Lucan and Celbridge as there is a vast difference in the number of buses servicing these towns.

spadder

I heard the boss of circle line on newstalk today, can he move his buses to another route? ( i.e. Trim-Dublin), or would c.i.e. shaft him again?

I live in Trim, and the town needs a more frequent service.

markf909

Swords Express in the Four Goldmines tomorrow suing the DoT because of DB competition on their routes.

Snake Plisken

Circleline ran a crap service to Lucan, where were these buses that ran 17 hours a day? Actually if RTE did any decent research they would see that Circleline ran buses without the required licenses as well! 25X's are always crowded both mornings and evenings, if the demand is there why shouldn't Dublin Bus not put on extra buses? I don't see Dublin Bus reducing their runs to Lucan now the competition is gone and are actually trying to be pro-active by looking to put on more buses to service the extra demand!