Circle Line to Close, Blame unfair competion from Dublin Bus

GerardKeating

NOTICE OF TERMINATION OF SERVICE
Dear Customer,

It is with sincere regret that we must inform you that the Circle Line service between Lucan-Celbridge and Nutgrove-VIA City Centre, will cease operating from Friday 27th June 2008.

This action is necessitated by the continued saturation of our route by a large number of Government funded buses, the operation of which is being subsidised by the tax payer.

We would like to thank you for your custom over the past number of years which we greatly appreciate.

It is a source of great sadness to us that we cannot continue to serve you, our customers and that our very loyal staff will lose their jobs. The continued financial losses on the route, make it impossible for us to continue operating the service.

Holders of Smart Cards will be refunded the remaining value on their cards by returning them to:

Circle Line Bus Company Ltd,
Straffan Road, Maynooth.

Just announced today...

Traffic

It will be interesting to see what affect this announcement will have on the dublin bus service to the Lucan area

Anyone have any ideas of what will happen?

murphaph

Circle Line wrote: »

the operation of which is being subsidised by the tax payer.

They make this sound like a bad thing.

fitz

It's ridiculous.
If Mortons had been allowed to run a direct to Celbridge service all the time, I reckon they'd have been very successful.
As it stands, we're now worse off than we were before they started the full daytime service. We don't even have the morning/evening service they used to provide.
Celbridge has the second biggest population in Kildare, and we're stuck with a bus service that is both insufficient, and that doesn't put Celbridge commuters first. There should be a Celbridge bus service that does not run through Lucan, a route which adds an extra 20 minutes on average to your commute.

Man am I pissed off right now.
I'm back to relying on Dublin Bus.
Pants.

seamus

Bad form really. The routes in question I would never consider "saturated".

From what I saw, circle line failed miserably at public awareness. If they did something as simple as putting timetables, fare lists and route maps into people's homes, then more people would have used them.
As it was, nobody was entirely sure what time the bus came at, whether it would stop at a certain DB stop and new users would have no idea how much it cost.

markf909

fitz wrote: »

It's ridiculous.
If Mortons had been allowed to run a direct to Celbridge service all the time, I reckon they'd have been very successful.
As it stands, we're now worse off than we were before they started the full daytime service. We don't even have the morning/evening service they used to provide.
Celbridge has the second biggest population in Kildare, and we're stuck with a bus service that is both insufficient, and that doesn't put Celbridge commuters first. There should be a Celbridge bus service that does not run through Lucan, a route which adds an extra 20 minutes on average to your commute.

Man am I pissed off right now.
I'm back to relying on Dublin Bus.
Pants. >:(

Are you suggesting that they were not allowed run direct to Celbridge?

Are you sure it wasn't down to bums on seats that they needed to go via Lucan?

Also, this company pulled all late night and weekend services with little notice, could DB do that?

Will this finally mean that DB can improve the service frequencies to Lucan/Celbridge/Maynooth that they had been planning but had been blocked from Circle Line?

fitz

murphaph wrote: »

They make this sound like a bad thing.

I think the point is that it's anti-competitive when the state-funded company are in a position to operate extra buses on a route at a loss in order to ensure that competitors service isn't used.

And as for the Lucan bus service, Lucan is reasonably well serviced.
Lucan has had a bus service with a bus every 20 minutes at most for years. Celbridge is still being operated with a similar timetable to 10 years ago.
I'd imagine we have as many commuters now in Celbridge as there were in Lucan when they were first given an 'every 20 minutes' service.

fitz

markf909 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that they were not allowed run direct to Celbridge?

Are you sure it wasn't down to bums on seats that they needed to go via Lucan?

Also, this company pulled all late night and weekend services with little notice, could DB do that?

Will this finally mean that DB can improve the service frequencies to Lucan/Celbridge/Maynooth that they had been planning but had been blocked from Circle Line?

I'm pretty sure they had to operate the same route as Dublin Bus.
Seamus, you're right, they sucked at marketing.
Part of it though, if I remember correctly, was that they weren't allowed put up bus-stops with timetables on them.
Either way, this seriously sucks. Back to two buses into work.
:mad:

markf909

fitz wrote: »

Either way, this seriously sucks. Back to two buses into work.
:mad:

While I can see that this is going to affect your commute in a negative way, this is a chance for enhanced public transport to be delivered to this area of Dublin.

DB have been held up in providing extra service for years by objections from private operators in this area.

I've used the corridor for over 15 years now and i've never seen any of these extra buses shadowing a Mortons coach, nor have I seen this 1.2 minute frequency from DB that Paul Morton said existed when interviewed on radio 1 this morning.

And, as I pointed out earlier, only 1 bus compant has ever pulled routes and services despite them being agreed with the DoT.

fitz

Yeah, Morton's comments are sensationalist, and I think he's got more to look at in terms of blame than Dublin Bus, like the poor marketting as mentioned above.

The only area that Dublin Bus have really increased on the 67 route in the last number of years were the 67x buses. I can only assume that's what Morton is getting at, but tbh, he always struck me as a bit disorganised and reactive.

I really hope it does lead to an expanded Dublin Bus service, cause we need it. I've been commuting that route for 13 years myself!
I've said for years, a ring service connecting Lucan, Leixlip, Maynooth and Celbridge with direct buses to each town would be the ideal situation. Celbridge/Leixlip and Maynooth all need frequent services that doesn't have to go through Lucan, extending our commute.

jimmycrackcorm

This is disappointing news for me as I am a very heavy user of their services. there's an element of truth in their claims about unfair competition from DB via public subsidy and ideally the subsidy should have been apportioned to all licenced services on a route.

However as a regular user I also noted that DB are only a partial factor in this. Looking at how packed the 25X buses were in comparison and that many many people were only using the 25X to get to the city centre, I can only conclude that Mortons failed miserably in marketing to get more people to use their more comfortable service. Even more noticiable is the scores of Lucan designated people at the evening stops waiting instead for the much slower 25A.

Zoney

fitz wrote: »

I think the point is that it's anti-competitive when the state-funded company are in a position to operate extra buses on a route at a loss in order to ensure that competitors service isn't used.

Competition isn't the be all and end all of everything. The flipside is that the private company are *only* going to keep running services that make a profit. The service people need does not necessarily turn a profit.

I'm in favour of facilitating the operation of extra services by private bus companies, and maybe they need some "protection" from public services. But how? Can you really justify excluding the public operator from routes the private operator runs? What if the private operator isn't running enough buses? How do you stop the public operator from deliberately running the private operator out of town, but at the same time allow extra services by the public operator?

I do not think the current system works, but neither do I believe it would be to the benefit of anyone bar company shareholders (and maybe not even that - telecoms has shown private companies are just as capable of wasting consumers money and going under) to privitise more bus routes or expect "market forces" to be a good arbitrator of services.

MiniD

I find it crazy that they blame Dublin Bus for this. I suspect there are other factors at play here, as a transport company they are feeling the pinch in the industry with rising fuel prices etc. I see Circle Line buses every morning and evening, and they are always full. What has changed in the last few weeks that has caused them to stop service?

I think it's important for any public transport company to advertise and promote their service. If you stand at any Circle Line bus stop, you will be left guessing when the next bus is due. The poles look shabby, they don't have timetables and their routing was always unclear.

I think the owner of Mortons buses would be better pointing the finger at the deptartment of transport who has still failed to implement a proper independent regulator despite millions being spent.

Whatever the outcome, I would hope the department of transport give the people of Lucan and Celbridge extra buses in peak hours now to cope with this reduction in service.

dub_commuter

markf909 wrote: »

Also, this company pulled all late night and weekend services with little notice, could DB do that?

No, of course Dublin Bus couldn't do that, they would receive subsidy for running the service at a loss so there would be no need to stop them from running in the first place, they can saturate their corridors with far more buses than timetabled to take a smaller company out of business, if I was Dublin Bus I'd do the same, but it doesn't make it right.

Will this finally mean that DB can improve the service frequencies to Lucan/Celbridge/Maynooth that they had been planning but had been blocked from Circle Line?

Would this be the same Dublin bus who only were interested in doing this AFTER Circle Line / Mortons were formed, and before their entrance to the market they had absolutely no interest? They want to try the same with a 24 hour airport service with Aircoach, but the thing is, CIE are like a small school kid compared to FirstGroup, and they will not be able to bully them like this.

Ultimately though, the whole mess is the fault of the Department of Transport, Dublin Bus are just taking advantage of the very poor infrastructure that is in place, although at the end of the day, the only people who benefit from the closure of Circle Line, are Dublin Bus, but I don't blame Dublin Bus no, I'd do the same and take advantage of the market flaws too if I were them

markf909

dub_commuter wrote: »

No, of course Dublin Bus couldn't do that, they would receive subsidy for running the service at a loss so there would be no need to stop them from running in the first place, they can saturate their corridors with far more buses than timetabled to take a smaller company out of business, if I was Dublin Bus I'd do the same, but it doesn't make it right.


Would this be the same Dublin bus who only were interested in doing this AFTER Circle Line / Mortons were formed, and before their entrance to the market they had absolutely no interest? They want to try the same with a 24 hour airport service with Aircoach, but the thing is, CIE are like a small school kid compared to FirstGroup, and they will not be able to bully them like this.

Ultimately though, the whole mess is the fault of the Department of Transport, Dublin Bus are just taking advantage of the very poor infrastructure that is in place, although at the end of the day, the only people who benefit from the closure of Circle Line, are Dublin Bus, but I don't blame Dublin Bus no, I'd do the same and take advantage of the market flaws too if I were them

I have no arguments with your points to be honest. The whole setup is a farce. The 1932 act, as others have pointed out on here, has the provision for this kind of thing. However you cannot legislate for weak minded politicians and civil servants who have not got the faintest idea of what public transport is.

I'm a simple public transport user, the type that is always the loser in these turf wars. I don't care who runs the services so long as they are frequent and punctual.

I firmly believe that public transport should require late night and weekend running and Service level agreements for private operators must be enforced.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

No, of course Dublin Bus couldn't do that, they would receive subsidy for running the service at a loss so there would be no need to stop them from running in the first place, they can saturate their corridors with far more buses than timetabled to take a smaller company out of business, if I was Dublin Bus I'd do the same, but it doesn't make it right.


Would this be the same Dublin bus who only were interested in doing this AFTER Circle Line / Mortons were formed, and before their entrance to the market they had absolutely no interest? They want to try the same with a 24 hour airport service with Aircoach, but the thing is, CIE are like a small school kid compared to FirstGroup, and they will not be able to bully them like this.

Ultimately though, the whole mess is the fault of the Department of Transport, Dublin Bus are just taking advantage of the very poor infrastructure that is in place, although at the end of the day, the only people who benefit from the closure of Circle Line, are Dublin Bus, but I don't blame Dublin Bus no, I'd do the same and take advantage of the market flaws too if I were them

The practices that you refer to date back to when Mortons started their service 20 years ago, when the world was a bit different, and yes DB were guilty of shoddy practices (including putting extra buses in at a whim) during the late 1980s and the 1990s. Since 2002 the Department of Transport have regulated the area very closely, and they have not been able to do this.

There have been few if any changes to DB services in that area in the last 18 months, and DB have been precluded from making any improvements to services by the Department, including operating the larger tri-axle buses on any Lucan QBC route. They have operated to their timetable except for three buses that they operated which were removed after the Department intervened.

I have sympathy for Morton in that he operated a high quality peak hour operation quite successfully, but the move into an all day operation (in conjunction with Bartons) was a disaster. He knew exactly what he was getting into, and to start claiming foul play at this stage is ridiculous. The service was appallingly marketed, and late evening services were withdrawn after two months, leaving whatever pax he carried to their own devices.

We need to put this into context. Currently the Department of Transport are taking the line that if a private bus operator operates a service along even a section of a Dublin Bus route that DB request permission for an improvement in, they will be exceptionally reluctant to grant permission. They do not want to be seen to be the cause of any private operations' demise, despite the fact that thousands of passengers may be deprived the service that they deserve.

Basically if you live in an area that is serviced by a DB route which at some point shares the same routing as a private operator, then you are unlikely to get any improvement in the DB service as the Department will not sanction it for fear of being accused of approving unfair competition through state subsidised services operated by DB.

This has meant that:
1) The proposed 141 from Swords to Rathmines via Santry and Drumcondra (not M1) was cancelled - possible competition with Swords Express.

2) Services on the Lucan QBC to Celbridge, Leixlip, Maynooth and Lucan have no enhancements - even in vehicle capacity (competition with Circle Line).

3) Adamstown is not served from the Lucan QBC but via the Nangor Road and Crumlin (competition with Circle Line)

4) The proposed extension of the 37 to Blanchardstown Shopping Centre has been refused by the Department (DB are appealing) as it might conflict with the URBus operation (hourly at best!!). This has held up all of the service improvements for the Blanchardstown area.

5) Proposed improvements to the 69 for Saggart and Rathcoole were refused as they would conflict with Dualway - who run a service to Tallaght and one return service to the city.

6) The 41X was refused permission to operate through the Port Tunnel as it would conflict with Swords Express. It took the actions of residents and local politicians in Swords to get this changed and even that took over a year.

7) DB are precluded from using tri-axles on the Swords corridor - again because of the possible damage to Swords Express.

These are some of the examples of the nonsense that is prevailing. You could not make it up. People are being left at bus stops because some faceless officials are making decisions on the basis that an operator "could possibly" be affected detrimentally by a much needed DB service improvement.

Politicians need to wake up and address this, as otherwise the bus service is going to grind to a standstill. The civil servants need to realise that this is a necessary public service and should not be operated on the basis of damaging a private operation. City bus operation is not a normal marketplace - it is an essential service that needs proper management. We, the customers, are not getting that.

I'm sorry to see Circle Line go - but frankly they should have remained with the peak operation until the licensing laws were updated. The current setup does no one any favours, least of all the customer.

paulm17781

seamus wrote: »

From what I saw, circle line failed miserably at public awareness. If they did something as simple as putting timetables, fare lists and route maps into people's homes, then more people would have used them.
As it was, nobody was entirely sure what time the bus came at, whether it would stop at a certain DB stop and new users would have no idea how much it cost.

Agreed, I often saw these buses when I needed a bus but I had no idea of cost or even if I could pay the driver. I think a lack of marketing may have been the issue.

That said, some better integration would have helped. If it looked like any other Dublin bus, I would have been none the wiser. I think government have a hand in this...

AlekSmart

The demise of Circle Line can only be bad news for the sector as a whole.

It has been noticable in recent times that CL services had taken on a rather shabby appearance and the appearance of some of their newer vehicles for sale in the UK trade press did nothing to bolster confidence.

However even with Paul Mortons protestations re Dublin Bus ringing out,most observers including the anti-State one`s can see a far wider set of reasons for this collapse.

Some posters refer to the "Faceless People" who are at the root of these problems and I would agree to an extent EXCEPT for the fact that these mandarins are PUBLIC servants too.

The responsibility for policy lies with the Minister for Transport and the Cabinet collectively,however,the responsibility for implimentation and monitoring lies squarely on the Secretary General of the Department of Transport (A post which has merited a SUBSTANTIAL salary increase in recent times).

The present incumbent Ms Julie O Neill has shown herself to be a very solid and dependable pair of hands and one upon which a Minister can rely on to "take the flak" for dodgy political decisions (viz Shannon Airport).

Sadly,in Dublin Public Transport terms,Ms O Neill`s tenure as Secretary General has been medicore at best and downright disasterous in many ways.

She has shown herself to be astutely aware of the Senior Civil Servants governing rule..."If taking any action may prove contentious for one`s Minister,then do NOTHING".
Ms O Neill has modified this Do Nothing rule somewhat into a set of nods and winks which has collectively left even the brighter lights in her Department in total terror of making ANY decision which might have impacted upon the much vaunted Paul Morton EU challenge against Dublin Bus.

Indeed the very status and advisability of this "Challenge" now assumes centre stage as Circle Line`s decision to leave the stage could be ataken as an implicit lack of confidence in it`s own position on this.

Taken in immediacy,Circle Line`s collapse now presents Julie O Neill with a sizeable problem.
She now faces a situation from next Monday of a serious yawning chasm in West Dublin Public Bus Transport services.

It also needs to be made very clear to those effected by this collapse that the 1932 Road Transport Act makes specific provision for Ministerial Intervention in such a situation.
It remains to be seen if the needs of West Dublin public transport users will be regarded as important enough to spur political action.

Dublin Bus currently has the infrastructural CAPABILITY to make up that capacity shortfall but only IF authorised by The Secretary General and Minister.

I rather suspect Ms O Neill will kick massively for touch and seek consultants reviews,reports and analyses which she can then lay before her Minister who will in turn consider them with her recommendation before bringing these options to cabinet.

If Dublin Bus were imbued with a firm self-confidence in its business model it would already be taking media space to point out it`s willingness and availibility to step in and take on the Circle Line`business.

With Dublin Bus having in the region of 70 Hi Capacity Tri-Axle vehicles along with 20 Hi Capacity Articulated Buses the immediate seat capacity IS there if addressed by a bit of innovative Fleet Management...however even this internal fleet management will require Julie O Neills approval....

How Ms O Neill manages her responsibility in what has now developed into a Public Transport Emergency for West-Dublin will be a very strong test of her and her departments competency

Snake Plisken

Glad they're gone there service was pretty poor to Lucan, very unreliable, I have yest to see their Lucan bus pass me in the evenings going to Lucan. They held up Dublin Bus improving the services to Lucan, I hope now we can see some real improvements on the 25A/X routes, always seem to be a big lack of buses on the route for such a big population.

L1011

67/A was never saturated

66 has been starved of busses due to Morton's legal actions, despite them never serving the town they're based in...

Metrobest

Mortons are right that Dublin Bus actively wanted to kill them off the route, however Mortons also need to shoulder some blame. Their marketing was terrible. The whole operation looked amateurish... "Mortons" - what does that mean? No indication of where the bus went, what it was.. it sounded like some kind of family-run minibus service rather than a modern, express, high-frequency commuter service for West Dublin. Contrast with "Aircoach" which is a well-named, professionally-run operation

Dublin needs strong successful private operators like Veolia and Arriva running private buses, not minnows like Mortons. The Department of Transport denies Dublin Bus access where access is needed, caiming it needs to give private operators a shot, such as the Port Tunnel, yet bans private operators where they would actually make sense, ie. 46a, 39, 15s etc.

Dublin Bus at present is a worst-practice monopoly in every sense - it's run like something out of Cuba. Serious competition just might give it the shake up it needs. But serious competition means that private operators get access to the same stops, the same integrated ticketing products and the same routes. The playing field has to be level. When you give CIE an unfair advantage they exploit it relentlessly. The irony is that CIE is slow and lethergic in almost every facet of operation except when it faces the threat of competition. Then the wheels of action start to turn. Look at when Aircoach entered the Dublin-Belfast market with €7 tickets each way. Previously the cheapest return fare on Bus éireann was €30 at low frequency. In response to Aircoach's arrival Bus Éireann were able to ramp up frequency to one per hour, and lower fares to match Aircoach's offer. The goal was simple: flood the market with buses, price out the new entrant, and wait till the blood flows. Vicious, state-subsidised predatory business practice. And so blatantly obvious.

Dublin Bus is subsidised by the taxpayer. This is logical in the case where routes are not economically viable. But there are a lot of corridors in Dublin which, in other cities, would be served by trams or even metros...or private operators. Dublin Bus probably has Europe's most lucrative route network - a highly-mobile city population mainly dependent on its buses. The question is - would a serious private operator be able to operate these routes more efficiently, thereby lowering the subsidy Dublin Bus extracts from Ireland's taxpayers? I think yes.

Victor

Is it only one route or all services?

Run_to_da_hills

What will they do with all thse busses?, The Double deckers are wierd looking compaired to anything that Dublin Bus would use, Would DB buy them? . Some of them look like London Busses.

Rawr

Although I hate to see a potential alternative to DB fizzle out, I must add to what MYOB pointed out.

Mortons had contributed to the DOT blocking DB not only from expanding on the 67 routes, but also on the 66, starving Leixlip and Maynooth (both very large satellite towns) of much needed extra capacity.

In the years that I had used the service, I had seen no improvement at all, or in some cases, dis-improvement (anyone remember the hourly 66x to/from the city on weekdays?)

I lived in Leixlip, and my route of choice always was the 66b, yet in the 20 years I had lived in the town, this route had never increased in frequency, nor had a Sunday service.

One small improvement happened in the form of the 66d. The Green Lane was funished with nearly 20 new bus stops and anticipation of new regular service was high, especially in the new housing estates, where for years there has been no bus at all and the nearest link was Louisa Bridge for a Train / 66.

But unfortunately, the 66d had a small problem. There was only one in the morning to town, and one back in the evening. That was all, and that's all there ever have been. I can only guess that this anti-competition nonsense had prevented DB from providing a proper 66d to a heavy populated area that needs it bad.

Also given the use of the letter 'd', I suspect a 66c must have been planned (for Maynooth perhaps?) adding even more much needed frequency and capacity.

I for one do hope that good comes from the demise of Circle Line. I hope sanity does allow for a wholesale upgrade of the 66 / 67 routes and soon. As it has been pointed out here already, it's *public* transport, it should be for the benefit of the traveling public.

Red Alert

As a bus user I am getting very bored of the carryon by Dublin Bus, the Private operators and the overpaid civil servants in the Department of Transport like the woman mentioned above. I'm sorry for any company that's trying to do a good job and ends up failing, but Mr. Morton did himself no favours on the radio. Dublin Bus should not be hampered in any way when trying to provide a service where it is needed, since the taxpayers are paying for it. It is ridiculous to suggest they should be precluded from servicing a particular area - the taxpayers there are paying for Dublin Bus. Should they also have to pay a Morton's tax?

markpb

markf909 wrote: »

While I can see that this is going to affect your commute in a negative way, this is a chance for enhanced public transport to be delivered to this area of Dublin.

Am I the only one wondering if we'll end up with an AerDart/N32 scenario where the DoT never reclaim the license and won't let DB use the road for any new or enhanced services because a private operator uses that road.

markf909

markpb wrote: »

Am I the only one wondering if we'll end up with an AerDart/N32 scenario where the DoT never reclaim the license and won't let DB use the road for any new or enhanced services because a private operator uses that road.

You know that's what will happen.

I'll send some correspondence to the various parties on Monday.

I fully expect to get a vague and pointless reply :rolleyes:

Ham'nd'egger

markf909 wrote: »

You know that's what will happen.

I'll send some correspondence to the various parties on Monday.

I fully expect to get a vague and pointless reply :rolleyes:

I can see it now, in fact I will even write it for you now...

Dear Mark, thank you for your letter

This is a matter for somebody else. We love buses and think they are cool.

Signed, a nameless TD. :rolleyes:

I used to know Messer Morton's son some years ago and since then, I feel some affinity for the company he built and his determination to run a private bus company to serve the general public. He built it up from hiring out buses to schools/groups at a time when it was a case of travel places on CIE and hire for a group trip from private guys like him. He always wanted to run a service based on routes even in his days of getting school trips to Newgrange and Bray and to give the man the best of credit, he invested in good buses that are market standard to run on his services and he gave it a darm good shot.

Why did he fail? Maybe he was too green to do what he did with acumen. Maybe he didn't have the sense and intelligence of Dublin Bus. Perhaps he was too small to be able to run against a Dublin Bus type operation (In this case, he'd have failed against a Stagecoach or Arriva if we had a strong private involvement in the market here). The license to print money that many consider running buses to be is clearly not the case, nor is it an easy ride. Buses indeed run full in morning and evening; the rest of the day is a different story and this showed when he just could not justify running outside of these hours. Morton's have a good 2 decades behind them to know what the risks were; today we saw more than ever that it is not easy and this alone doesn't help you succeed.

Undoubtedly, the bus licensing system and in particular how it is applied to the market has a lot more to do with his demise than we will be ever told.

AlekSmart

The in`s and out`s of this little scenario may well turn out to be somewhat more theatrical than many yet suspect :rolleyes:

From what I can gather,this is not the demise of Morton`s as a force in the Public Transport market.
It would appear that last year,for some reason,Circle Line Bus had it`s assets and operations seperated from the main Mortons operation and it then became a stand alone entity.
The "new" venture appeared to involve the Barton group to a much greater extent which included the supply of a substantial fleet of new vehicles.

What some observers are finding odd is the reasoning behind that major alteration in focus which took the Circle Lines focus away from the original Morton high quality added value image which had proven so valuable in the past.

There is also a tendency to run off at the mouth with rose hip syrup about the greater involvement of large multi-national operators such as Stagecoach,First Group,Arriva etc etc.
It needs to be fully understood that none of these operators possess a magic-bullet which will magically transform Dublins Bus Services.

The somewhat sad reality is that these companies are in many area`s inferior to the Dublin Bus operation,First Group for example have major problems throughout the UK in terms of vehicle fitness and in some well publicised cases have had several hundred vehicles removed from their Operating Licences due to concerns about their Maintenance and Operational systems..

The real disaster here is in the responses or lack of them from both the Department of Transport and Dublin Bus.

Whilst Circle Line Bus`s demise may well yet turn out to be Politicking of the highest degree,it still highlights a Department of Transport which is now seen as ABSOLUTELY without Authority or Leadership accumen of any sort.

The so called threat of an EU centred action subsequent on Morton`s original complaint was never enough to make a strong well organized Department of Transport flinch from its duty to the PUBLIC.

The Dept of Transport under it`s current leadership has turned tail and run rather than face ANY serious questioning.
I too would fear a rerun of the N32 AerDart scenario which still exists today as its the "Irish Way" of dealing with things.

The only way the Circle Line shambles will prove positive is if the West Dublin Commuters start thumping on Julie O Neills desk seeking a return for the (substantial) investment the State has made in HER !

BrianD

GerardKeating wrote: »

Just announced today...

There is a certain section of both the community and politician who believe that competition on routes is a good thing. Clearly it isn't if Circle Lines are to be believed. Even if their claims were true it could be quite possible that another private sector operator could do the same thing. We've all seen that certain wealthy individuals in this country are quite happy to invest zillions just to annoy their competitors!

It is my understanding that some of the CL routes operated a very limited service so I am unsurprised - but disappointed - to hear that they are having difficulties. While I had seen CL buses about, I had no idea where they serviced and how often.

Personally, the only real competition you can have in the commuter bus market is competitive tender for particular routes so you end up with one operator on a particular route who must deliver a specified level of service.

markf909

Some sensationalist quotes in todays Indo from private operators including one from the operator who of the Swords Express

Owner of private bus operator Swords Express, Antoin O'Lachtnain, said: "We are gradually being burned like a lobster as Dublin Bus turns up the heat on our routes."

How long have the 41X's been running through the port tunnel?
1 week, how many services do DB have on the 41X through the Port tunnel?
I though it explicitly had to avoid the areas of Swords served by the Sword Express?

Private operators have every right to be upset with the DoT for operating in a vacuum but commuters are not getting anything of these turf wars either.

HydeRoad

I have no doubt there is an element of sensation in the private operators' claims. But they are very small Davids up against a very powerful and government backed Goliath. They have to kick and scream blue bloody murder to be heard.

Dublin Bus say they are operating within the strictures of the Department of Transport. Well I can't speak for today, but up to the middle of last year, Circle Line sent a small number of people out to count the number of Dublin Buses operating on the Lucan Road, and that total was well above the number of actual scheduled departures. This at a time when people were being left behind in Ballyfermot in their hundreds due to not enough buses. Many of the Dublin Buses running side by side with Circle Line were completely empty. The Department DID tell Dublin Bus to remove buses, but the damage was done by then - it was too late. Circle Line simply could not afford to run their full amount of licensed services against that, and because they were not operating the full licence, the Department would not allow them to publish their timetables, which crippled their business even more.

Now that Circle Line has gone, I have no doubt that Dublin Bus can turn their full attention to Swords Express, and run him off the road too. I hope they at least keep their war with Swords Express civilised, and don't resort to using buses full of passengers as 'battering rams' against private buses, like some psychotic Dublin Bus drivers tried to do to Circle Line. The memory of Wellington Quay is still warm.

It is disgusting, corrupt behaviour by a government sponsored organisation, using passengers as pawns in their petty jealousies. Passengers were always 'skulls' in CIE, never customers. Circle Line had many customers who will not resort to using Dublin Bus, out of sheer bad experience. They will most probably end up driving private cars, which is of no benefit to anyone.

Snake Plisken

yeah but at peak times in the mornings and afternoons the 25A's & 25X's are always full, customers are crammed in like sardines, I've rang Dublin Bus on this issue before and it was because Circleline had complained so much DB were not allowed to put much needed extra buses on the routes, where were the Circle line buses? Nowhere to be seen.

So from reading some of the comments am I led to believe that we still won't see any additional 25A's or 25X's on the routes when Circle stop operating next week? If that is the case then its a joke, for commuters in Lucan is it worth emailing and calling the likes of Curran Harney to put pressure on the Dept of Transport to allow DB to increase the amount of buses?

howisitgoing

Dublin bus won out again with no thought for the 20 people who have lost their jobs

AlekSmart

I would advocate a wee bit of moderation in this case until the coloured smoke has wafted away (Westwards Presumably ?)

With the 20 drivers in question presumably employed by the newer "Circle Line Bus" company and not directly by Morton Coaches there may well be opportunities for redeployment as yet unpublicised

The burning question which is as yet unanswered is what action,if any,the Dept of Transport will take over the weekend.
The unavailibility of spokespersons either for Minister Dempsey or his Secretary General is notable with only bare-bones stuff having been forthcoming since the announcement.

Oddly enough there is even interest from the UK trade press in our Department`s attitude to the current mess,and a veritable skip load of questions await which ever hapless Media Person pulls the short straw this weekend

As for the Swords Express which continues to operate a well regarded service there are many questions other than how to fry Lobster which remain unanswered,not least of which may relate to the inability of SE to offer a service which complies with the access requirements of the Disability Act 2000.

Ms O Neill`s Department is hugely sensitive to any suggestion that it`s decisions may impact negatively on anybody,and certain elements have commented on how the Departments refusal to allow 41X services through the tunnel did in fact mitigate against disabled users of THAT pre-existing service.

The suggestion that yet another aggrieved person(s) might secure backing to pursue a "case" through the EU courts may well have focused some rheumy eyes in wood pannelled offices

However,a far greater Departmental problem may well exist in the 141 scenario as a kind of dull murmour is beginning to eminate from local Political heavies about this proposed route and the Departments apparent inability to diferentiate between a fully accessible Stage-Carriage service and a Limited Access-Limited Stop Express service.

Some observers have questioned the Department of T`s Taxi Bill in recent times,which I`m sure is well within the guidelines issued by somebody or other....or was that the Gleeson Report on the salaries of higher civil servants...

Victor

HydeRoad wrote: »

Now that Circle Line has gone, I have no doubt that Dublin Bus can turn their full attention to Swords Express, and run him off the road too. I hope they at least keep their war with Swords Express civilised, and don't resort to using buses full of passengers as 'battering rams' against private buses, like some psychotic Dublin Bus drivers tried to do to Circle Line. The memory of Wellington Quay is still warm.

While I have seen road users of all varieties going a little too far with their vehicles, I think it is an exaggeration to describe their use as 'battering rams'. If they are ever used in such a manner, a call to the Garda should follow immediately. Wellington Quay, whatever the cause, was not an incident of a vehicle being used as a battering ram.

Care to eleborate?

Rawr

FYI,

RTE also covered this on Friday:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0620/bus.html

meanmachine3

i've kept very quiet for the last couple of days but now feel a few things must be said.
firstly i find hyderoad a hypocrite of the highest degree. you go on about dublin bus and how they treated circle line and basically your here singing a private operators praises yet your one of the thousands of taxi drivers calling for an end to deregulation ( competition in my eyes) because there are to many taxi's and not enough money.
secondly i take great offence to what you have said below.

HydeRoad wrote: »

I hope they at least keep their war with Swords Express civilised, and don't resort to using buses full of passengers as 'battering rams' against private buses, like some psychotic Dublin Bus drivers tried to do to Circle Line. The memory of Wellington Quay is still warm.

in case you dont know this hyderoad
there is no war
we dont use buses as battering rams and i have never seen or heard of anything like this before being mentioned.
the driver in the wellington quay incident was totally vindicated in the case set out against him. but your remarks above seem to suggest otherwise.
i have let this go for a couple of days and am now requesting the above paragraph is removed by a mod.
also

HydeRoad wrote: »

don't resort to using buses full of passengers as 'battering rams' against private buses, like some psychotic Dublin Bus drivers tried to do to Circle Line. The memory of Wellington Quay is still warm.

it's fortunate that i dont work the lucan runs otherwise i'd be taking more action than just requesting the above be deleted.

oh and one other thing for all of you women or those of you that have kids that use public transport
how many private operators or taxi drivers carry/ bring you home for nothing when you've no change or dont have a valid ticket.

AlekSmart

I can see where Meanmachine3 is coming from and I too was somewhat taken aback by the Wellington Quay reference which,I feel, took the post perilously close to the boundaries of acceptable comment.

With some 3,000 drivers in its employ I have no doubt but HydeRoad has had moments of conflict with other Dublin Bus drivers.
However,I would be very surprised if he/she was experiencing that on an ongoing or alledgedly organized basis.
I would suggest that in the current environment some form of conflict has become an all to frequent imposition on what should be a normal friction free employment

I`m sure that HydeRoad and other readers are more than aware that the Judicial process surrounding the Wellington Quay case involved the most thorough legal processes possible on ALL of the Dublin Bus Staff involved.
There was NEVER any suggestion brought forward in open court of any form of physchosis and that is a matter of legal record.

However,I would suggest that the reference be left as it is and that perhaps HydeRoad might revisit it in the light of reflection and perhaps a thought for those who survived or were otherwise involved in that awful event ?

Phsychotic Busdrivers are not a Dublin Bus specific occurence,however recent high profile events do raise a question as to why Busdriving is now seen as a potential seedbed for its propagation ?

This question may well have something to do with the manner in which the job`s functions have become increasingly difficult to perform with any level of application,let alone proffessionalism.

This in turn lands the issue firmly back in the lap of the Department of Transport and the wider circle of Dublin Citys Traffic and Transport Administration.
Most posters here and most media coverage in the wake of the Circle line "closedown" has NOT focused upon Dublin Bus or Circleline but instead on the apparent inability of a Government Minister and his entire Department to effectively manage a Public Bus service scenario for what is a VERY small and potentially easily managed Capital City.

Instead,the only audible voices for change and progress are from the likes of the 41X Busdriver on RTE`s Liveline or from a few interested parties who can write to various editors on the topic.
Indeed the Ministers fairly "safe" reaction concerning him "writing a letter" to Dublin Bus about it`s responsibilities underlines the uncomfortable fact that this particular Government is divorced from reality on far more than simply the Lisbon Treaty issue.

HydeRoad

I withdraw the mention of Wellington Quay. It's use was not meant to be taken in the context it was taken - I simply intended to demonstrate that buses by their very nature, their size, power, number of passengers, can be lethal machines, and should be treated with the greatest of respect and care. I did not intend any slight on those involved in that actual incident, which was certainly no deliberate act. I drove buses for many years, and such a situation could be visited unexpectedly on myself or any bus driver, every time he sits behind the wheel of a bus. Mentioning Wellington Quay was out of order, and an oversight on my part. I can think of no good example of the inherent danger of a bus full of passengers under extraordinary circumstances that wouldn't involve the sadness or misfortune of individual people, so I should not use one. My respect to those involved.

I have no interest in arguing with meanmachine3, punctuation or no punctuation. I am willing to debate courteously, but I will not get into a tomato flinging match.

The battering ram term was not aimed at the Wellington Quay bus, but at Dublin Bus drivers who deliberately target private bus drivers on an individual, occasional but far too frequent basis. I personally witnessed some very vindictive behaviour by a small band of Dublin Bus drivers, who seem to treat their responsibilities with abandon, yet remain in their jobs unmolested. I chose Wellington Quay as an example of the kind of results that can occur, nothing more. I was going to detail some of the incidents, which were pretty hair raising, but there would be nothing to be gained from it, and I'll probably only be told I am telling lies, or some other blandishment, and I really don't care much anyway. Some day here, for meanmachine3s benefit, I will detail all the terrible things about driving for a private operator, but this thread is about the unfairness of a state Goliath crushing a niche operator serving a particular market not catered for by Dublin Bus.

P.S. Circle Line were RENOWNED for looking after their passengers with no change for the trip home, so meanmachine3s point about the women and children is a bit contrived. Clutching at straws, and making it personal. Lighten up.

markf909

Hamndegger wrote: »

I can see it now, in fact I will even write it for you now...

Dear Mark, thank you for your letter

This is a matter for somebody else. We love buses and think they are cool.

Signed, a nameless TD. :rolleyes:

Response from Julie herself is that the issue cannot be solved until the dept's "Public Transport Regulation Division" have seen to this.

So any guesses in terms of months before we get any movement on this?

Bearing in mind Circle Line finishes up this week.

meathstevie

What's Mr. Morton worried about. In certain parts of south county Dublin you don't even need a licence to run a bus service...

Buffman

Living in the half of Celbridge that is'nt served by DB I can say that CL will be missed. They provided a good reliable rush hour service, the 07.20 CL3 would have you in town for around 8ish on an average day, and it was so popular they had to run 2 busses for it.

Hopefully DB will now get permission to put on a few more direct (not serving Lucan) 67X's at peak times to compensate.
And I'll get a bit more excercise with the 20min walk to the DB stop...!:D

AlekSmart

Markf909 posted....Response from Julie herself is that the issue cannot be solved until the dept's "Public Transport Regulation Division" have seen to this.

Well it`s comforting to know that in times of crisis that the established Civil Service will pull out all of the stops to ensure it meets it`s obligations to the citizenry :rolleyes:

I presume the PTRD section (If its not a figment of Julie`s imagination) has enough on its plate trying to figure out how many unlicenced operators they have on their books as well as trying to define what a Patton Flyer is.

This extra workload may well cause an implosion as we all know that the General Secs have been burning midnight oil in frantic attempts to identify area`s where budgetary savings may be made.....abolishing the PTRD may well be one of these....but then again making do without a Secretary General or two might be less disruptive and save a LOT more money ????

HydeRoad

There were twelve Circle Line buses that departed RDS Ballsbridge in the evening peak, each carrying dozens of passengers from that one stop, I'd say a hundred to two hundred average from just one bus stop. Those customers have NO replacement bus service other than to get a 7 or 45 bus, sit in the horrendous traffic jams between Merrion Square, Clare Street, Westland Row and Pearse Street, Pearse Street having LOST a good deal of it's bus lane. They then have to transfer from those buses, walk to the 67 bus stop, and board packed buses, and I know from close friends' regular experiences over a period of time, those buses are far slower, taking longer to get from Westmoreland Street to Celbridge than Circle Line took from Ballsbridge! Those passengers face between half an hour to an hour longer to get home in the evenings, which is unacceptable to commuters already spending too great a proportion of their day out of the house.

Local businesses in the Ballsbridge area had rang Circle Line repeatedly about increasing the services for workers, although Circle Line at that stage were cutting the services due to the pressure they were put under. Now running a bus business is no light undertaking, and there were many decisions taken by Circle Line that did not help matters. Many things could have been done differently. I am neither pro private nor pro Dublin Bus. I favour looking and learning from the best practice of all angles. But I make no apology for slating the carry on of Dublin Bus, both officially and unofficially. Dublin Bus did not wish to provide the service Celbridge and Lucan customers cried out for, yet they did not wish anyone else to provide it either. And I am not talking about the Department not allowing them. I am talking about going right back over the years before the Department were ever aware of any problems. If you were in any doubt about that, you should talk to some of the long term customers of Circle Line, who travelled with them from the beginning.

I hope Dublin Bus will provide some level of replacement service, not just to carry the extra numbers from Celbridge and Lucan, but also a through service to Ballsbridge. After all, they did their damnedest to see off Circle Line, allowing for any bad decisions made by Circle Line themselves. And at the end of the day, it is grossly unfair to add another half an hour to an hour's evening travel to already weary commuters. There isn't much room in Pearse Street for all those evening 66 and 67 buses. Why not run some of them across to Ballsbridge, an extra ten minutes' trip, and where there is ample parking space?

KC61

HydeRoad wrote: »

There were twelve Circle Line buses that departed RDS Ballsbridge in the evening peak, each carrying dozens of passengers from that one stop, I'd say a hundred to two hundred average from just one bus stop. Those customers have NO replacement bus service other than to get a 7 or 45 bus, sit in the horrendous traffic jams between Merrion Square, Clare Street, Westland Row and Pearse Street, Pearse Street having LOST a good deal of it's bus lane. They then have to transfer from those buses, walk to the 67 bus stop, and board packed buses, and I know from close friends' regular experiences over a period of time, those buses are far slower, taking longer to get from Westmoreland Street to Celbridge than Circle Line took from Ballsbridge! Those passengers face between half an hour to an hour longer to get home in the evenings, which is unacceptable to commuters already spending too great a proportion of their day out of the house.

Local businesses in the Ballsbridge area had rang Circle Line repeatedly about increasing the services for workers, although Circle Line at that stage were cutting the services due to the pressure they were put under. Now running a bus business is no light undertaking, and there were many decisions taken by Circle Line that did not help matters. Many things could have been done differently. I am neither pro private nor pro Dublin Bus. I favour looking and learning from the best practice of all angles. But I make no apology for slating the carry on of Dublin Bus, both officially and unofficially. Dublin Bus did not wish to provide the service Celbridge and Lucan customers cried out for, yet they did not wish anyone else to provide it either. And I am not talking about the Department not allowing them. I am talking about going right back over the years before the Department were ever aware of any problems. If you were in any doubt about that, you should talk to some of the long term customers of Circle Line, who travelled with them from the beginning.

I hope Dublin Bus will provide some level of replacement service, not just to carry the extra numbers from Celbridge and Lucan, but also a through service to Ballsbridge. After all, they did their damnedest to see off Circle Line, allowing for any bad decisions made by Circle Line themselves. And at the end of the day, it is grossly unfair to add another half an hour to an hour's evening travel to already weary commuters. There isn't much room in Pearse Street for all those evening 66 and 67 buses. Why not run some of them across to Ballsbridge, an extra ten minutes' trip, and where there is ample parking space?

Hyde Road, I think we all need to move on from this. The time when DB did not want to serve Lucan/Celbridge/Leixlip/Maynooth was 15-20 years ago (when Mortons stepped in), and this has moved on. The company has expressed its desire repeatedly over the last five years to increase its services in the area, and I think that we need to look at that with an open mind, given most other areas of the city have received increased services through allocations of new buses. Given the population increases in the areas served by the Lucan QBC, this is not an unreasonable request from DB. There are changes in mindset happening in the company - this can be seen with the introduction of direct cross-city routes such as the 4/4A, 128, 140, 151, 145, which would not have happened before.

What could help (as a quick fix) would be for the department to allow DB to use the large tri-axle buses on the 25/A, 66/A/B and 67/A that are currently on route 10. This would help alleviate the capacity shortage on the Lucan QBC with the withdrawal of Circle Line.

The real problem is that Dublin Bus have reallocated all of the additional 100 buses that they received to other services after the department refused to sanction route 141 or increases in the service on the Lucan QBC. So other than allocating large capacity tri-axles to the Lucan QBC, they are left with few options....unless they cut back other routes or if the government converts some of the 150 buses currently on order as replacement vehicles to instead being additional vehicles in the fleet.

A high frequency service from the Lucan QBC to the south city is to my mind something that DB need to look at in the context of the ongoing network review.

parsi

HydeRoad wrote: »

I personally witnessed some very vindictive behaviour by a small band of Dublin Bus drivers, who seem to treat their responsibilities with abandon, yet remain in their jobs unmolested..

I was threatened with assault by a group of Taxi Drivers when I took pictures of one of their many protests (in this case it was against a hckney firm in Limerick) but I don't drag it in to any discussion about taxis...

Davidth88

This is strange , I was always under the impression that DB were not allowed to change the timetable because of the compitition rules , did that change ?

The people in St Raphaels/that side of Celbridge are going to be very badly served now.

Whenever I saw the CL buses they looked full , indeed I used them on occasion and they were jammed.

Of course with the removal of evening services this didn't help , also the points that other posters make about the bus stops/lack of time tables is very true.

Does this mean that DB are going to increase the service for Celbridge and run a bus that does not go through Lucan now ? ( I can guess the answer ) .

markf909

Davidth88 wrote: »

Does this mean that DB are going to increase the service for Celbridge and run a bus that does not go through Lucan now ? ( I can guess the answer ) .

The faceless DoT mandarins have to "look into" the situation.

DB hands are tied and the ordinary commuters suffer.

Get writing to Julie O'Neill. She is the one who runs the whole show and draws a very large wage and free car parking spot for all her efforts.

KC61

Dublin Bus cannot change routings or timetables without prior approval from the Department.

They are also precluded from operating the higher capacity tri-axle double deck buses on either the Lucan or Swords QBC's.

However, with the imminent withdrawal of Circle Line, one would hope that the Department would see sense and allow DB to immediately operate the tri-axles on the Lucan corridor thus increasing capacity without changing the timetable as a "quick fix".

Each "VT" has a seating capacity of 91 (an increase of 15 over a standard double deck) and an extra standing capacity of 10-15. That means up to 30 extra passengers per bus. The buses are available as they are on the 10 currently (which can survive with standard double decks).

Given the Department's reluctance to act, I would suggest getting onto local politicians and Ms. O'Neill to allow this to happen.

DB will need to then look at the whole corridor and see what can be done relatively quickly to reorganise routes and increase capacity.

KC61

Davidth88 wrote: »

This is strange , I was always under the impression that DB were not allowed to change the timetable because of the compitition rules , did that change ?

It's nothing to do with competition rules, but rather the Department's narrow interpretation of the 1932 and 1958 Transport Acts, in which they are not prepared to sanction any change in DB operations that might potentially affect a private operator's services in a negative way.

Hence the 141 (Swords-Rathmines via Santry and Drumcondra) was not allowed, because it might affect Swords Express (despite being a normal stopping service and improving the service for Santry, Whitehall and Drumcondra - all of which are not served by Swords Express), and the 37 extension from Riverwood to Blanchardstown Shopping Centre has been turned down as it might affect the URBUS service from Ashtown Park Gate that operates via Castleknock to Blanchardstown and then on to the Airport and Swords.

The Department are not standing back from the desk and looking at the broader picture. Any DB route change that "could" affect a private operation (no matter how small) is being viewed negatively.

Unfortunately this means that people who have paid for new buses through their taxes are being deprived a service.