Fire Brigade Charges

civdef

Why are you rushing to dismiss the new directorate before it has had a chance to do anything?

Might be better off to give it a chance, then feel free to criticise based on results or the lack thereof. Anything else is jumping to conclusions.

wreckless

civdef wrote: »

Why are you rushing to dismiss the new directorate before it has had a chance to do anything?

Might be better off to give it a chance, then feel free to criticise based on results or the lack thereof. Anything else is jumping to conclusions.

off to a poor start if you ask me and I know more feel the same. As you say, time will tell

from a another forum-
There will be a new national director for fire services, an independent chair, a management group, and a consultative committee, all working together to improve and maintain fire services in Ireland.

A case of round up the usual suspects for an aul' committee ??

for further strengthening the process to provide central direction and leadership for the fire and emergency services.

What process is being further strengthened ???

It follows the implementation .....the restructuring of the senior fire service management (2006)

What???

Can you imagine the speech to announce the directorate ...

" Delighted to announce blal blah blah , Great lads the fireman blah blah , capital investment ,blah blah tough times ahead, blah blah, within budgets ,blah Change programme ,blah ,great lads altogether, blah blah ,competency , Jaysus didnt mean to mention that, blah blah, leadership blah blah, great lads altogether ,blah, Green Party , blah , firemen on bicycles , blah blah, Less chiefs - pigs will fly, blah blah blah.....

and

Consultative Committee Membership


Mr Joe Crockett County Manager Kilkenny County Council
Mr Conn Murray County Manager Louth County Council
Ms Martina Maloney County Manager Galway County Council
Ms. Clare Curley Director Of Services South Tipperary County Council,
Mr. Karl Cashen Director Of Services North Tipperary County Council,
Mr Oliver O'Loughlin Director Of Services Limerick City Council
Mr Hugh O'Neill Chief Fire Officer Dublin City Council
Mr Seamus Murphy Chief Fire Officer Mayo County Council
Mr Adrian Kelly Chief Fire Officer Clare County Council
Ms. Maria Melia Chief Fire Officer Wexford County Council
Mr Dave Spillett S.A.C.F.O. Cork City Council
Mr Declan Power S.A.C.F.O. Laois County Council
Ms. Mary O'Brien S.E.F.P.O. Dublin City Council
Mr Pete Mc Donnell Station Officer Mayo County Council
Mr Greg Burnell Station Officer Dublin City Council
Mr Noel Reidy Consultant Reidy Brophy Ltd
Mr Michael Slattery Consultant Michael N Slattery & Associates
Mr Alan Hill Consultant Tourism Development Ltd.
Mr Louis Jones Deputy Chief Fire Officer NI Fire & Rescue Service
Mr Michael Fitzsimons Civil Defence Officer Meath County Council
Mr Don Culliton Human Resource Executive L.G.M.S.B.
Nominees x 2 I.M.P.A.C.T.
Nominees x 2 S.I.P.T.U.

The usual suspects with all the nod and wink stuff alive and kickin'.

If IMPACT have 2 reps I make it 1 x CFO, 1 x FF's
If SIPTU have 2 I make that one 1 x FT, 1 x Retained.

So 1 Retained rep with years of experience sits beside 8 Senior Fire Officers with about 1 weeks experience between them !!!

Then we have 2 x FT reps for approx 1,500 FT staff while the 1 x Retained represents the views of 2,200 Retained staff !!!

And better yet, 8 Senior Officers to represent the views of approx 200 Senior Officers !!!!!!!!


do you blame me for being a bit synical? :rolleyes:

civdef

Considering that your post is a cut and paste job from other posters on another Irish fire forum, yes...

SerialComplaint

wreckless wrote: »

So 1 Retained rep with years of experience sits beside 8 Senior Fire Officers with about 1 weeks experience between them !!!

This is rubbish. Many of these officers are very experienced. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about fire officers.

Paulzx

SerialComplaint wrote: »

This is rubbish. Many of these officers are very experienced. .

Experienced in what exactly?

SerialComplaint

Paulzx wrote: »

Experienced in what exactly?

Experienced in being fire officers, and doing all that entails, i.e. in running public fire services.

Paulzx

Wreckless is quite entitled to be cynical about the set up of this Fire Services directorate and its heavy loading of non operational personnel. There is even a bloody tourism rep on it for f**ks sake!!

I know very little about the individual fire officers named on it and cannot comment on their ability or otherwise. However the fact remains that at senior fore officer level there is minimal or no operational fire fighting experience.

The following is an advertisment for a asst chief fire officers postion

COMHAIRLE CHONTAE LAOISE
LAOIS COUNTY COUNCIL
OFFICE OF ASSISTANT CHIEF FIRE OFFICER
QUALIFICATIONS
1. CHARACTER:
Each candidate must be of good character.
2. HEALTH:
Each candidate must be in a state of health such as would indicate a reasonable
prospect of ability to render regular and efficient service.
3. EDUCATION, TRAINING, EXPERIENCE, ETC:
Each Candidate must, on the latest date for receipt of completed application forms for
the office -
(a) Hold a degree at Level 8 in the National Framework of Qualifications in:
i. engineering, architecture, or other building construction related discipline, or
ii. a degree at the same level in a science or technology related discipline
including, physics, chemistry, environmental or computer science,
information communications technology, or
iii. a professional qualification equivalent to any of the foregoing.
(b) Have a satisfactory knowledge of one or more of the following:
􀂃 Principles of fire safety,
􀂃 Fire service operations
􀂃 Major emergency management,
􀂃 Technological and industrial processes,
􀂃 Telecommunications and information technology.
(c) Have at least five years satisfactory relevant experience, including adequate
experience in at least one of the areas specified at (b) above.
(d) Have a high standard of training in one or more of the areas specified in (b)
above.
(e) Be competent

As you can see it is possible to apply for this job withno experience of any type of firefighting.

I have no issue with the academical qualifications that are required but it is wrong that someone can be appointed as a senior fire officer, have no operational experience and then be on call for attendance at a major fire.


Recently, ex operational fire fighters with the relevant third level qualifications have been appointed into senior postions in various brigades and this is a welcome devolpment.

If this directorate is to have influence on the training and tactics of all fire services its members must have actual knowledge of firefighting as well as their academic abilities.

I do not know enough yet about the remit of the new Directorate and will wait with anticipation full details of its role. I have an open mind and hope it benifets the public and those of us employed in the Fire Services.

I am however a born cynic and have my doubts

SerialComplaint

Paulzx wrote: »

Wreckless is quite entitled to be cynical about the set up of this Fire Services directorate and its heavy loading of non operational personnel. There is even a bloody tourism rep on it for f**ks sake!!

None of these officers are newly appointed. All are experienced, and have attended more fires that you or I have had hot dinners.

Paulzx

SerialComplaint wrote: »

None of these officers are newly appointed. All are experienced, and have attended more fires that you or I have had hot dinners.

You obviously have absolutely no idea how the Fire Services in Ireland operate. The recruit FF in my station has probably attended more fires than all them senior officers together. Any FF that posts on here will back this up.

It is a common misconception that a Chief Fire Officer is someone who has spent his life at the business end of firefighting when in fact this couldnt be further from the truth.

Hooch

I havint read this, nor am I a fireman (so wont understand it) but said i'd through my two cents in.

Throught the job I know about 15 ACFO and CFO. I know only one of these who was a fireman before getting the jump to ACFO. The rest including the CFOs got there because of their degree, which yes does have a place in higher management, but its my opinion that the officers of ever emergency service should have served in the front line. Been at RTCs, wore a BA set at a house fire and at least climbed a ladder bigger than a step ladder!!!!

Im sure alot of the ACFOs and CFOs that were never Fire officers are very good at their job, but experience gathers respect from FFs be it full time or retained.

Again, as im not fire service ye can tell me to shove it:D:pac:, but thats my thoughts!!!:p

SerialComplaint

Paulzx wrote: »

You obviously have absolutely no idea how the Fire Services in Ireland operate. The recruit FF in my station has probably attended more fires than all them senior officers together. Any FF that posts on here will back this up.

It is a common misconception that a Chief Fire Officer is someone who has spent his life at the business end of firefighting when in fact this couldnt be further from the truth.

I've no such misconception about CFO's and I really don't want CFO's who have spend their lives at the business end etc etc. I want CFO's who can manage budgets, and manage people, and manage County Managers, and manage builders and architects. There is a lot more to being a CFO than carrying a hose, important and all that that is.

All we're seeing on this thread is the usual oul sour grapes and jealously that you don't get promoted unless have you have a degree in engineering. Get over it, boys.

Paulzx

This has absolutely nothing got to do with promotion and you are way off the mark to think so. I actually agree that senior fire officers should have 3rd level qualifications. I have no interest in ever applying for a CFO's job but i do have an interest in the public receiving the best service possible and in Fire personnel operating in as safe an environment as is possible in a risky job.

I don't care how good a senior fire officer is at having tea and biscuits with the county manager and with builders and architects. In all your must have mangement skills for a CFO you never once mention the necessity to have the ability to properly run a Fire Service


The fact of the matter remains that if there is a large fire any where in the country tonight a senior fire officer will be required to attend. His ability to manage his county manager will be of little use to him at a 15 pump factory fire when he has absolutely no idea of the conditions his men face in the fire as he has never experienced them in anger himself. Theory is all well and good but reality normally differs.

Any Garda on the street might have bad things to say about the Garda Commissioner but he can never take away the fact that at one stage he also walked a beat.

If the only arguement you can come up with is to accuse me of sour grapes then there is probably nothing more i can say to you.

SerialComplaint

Paulzx wrote: »

I don't care how good a senior fire officer is at having tea and biscuits with the county manager and with builders and architects. In all your must have mangement skills for a CFO you never once mention the necessity to have the ability to properly run a Fire Service

Managing the county manager is essential in getting a decent budget to run the fire service. Managing the builders and architects is essential to ensuring that new build projects are safe. These are all important features of running a fire service.

Paulzx wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains that if there is a large fire any where in the country tonight a senior fire officer will be required to attend. His ability to manage his county manager will be of little use to him at a 15 pump factory fire when he has absolutely no idea of the conditions his men face in the fire as he has never experienced them in anger himself. Theory is all well and good but reality normally differs.

The senior officer will not just 'attend', he/she will be in charge. They will be the one with statutory responsibilities. They will be the ones arrested (as happened in Wicklow) if a fire officer gets killed. Fire services aren't dumb, and aren't going to put a rookie engineering graduate in charge of a major incident. They will manage the training and development of that officer until they have the requisite skills and experience.

Paulzx wrote: »

Any Garda on the street might have bad things to say about the Garda Commissioner but he can never take away the fact that at one stage he also walked a beat.

The lack of outside influence and recruitment has been a major weakness for the Gardai. This creates the 'code of silence' situation that occured in Donegal, where is it considered disloyal to 'rat' on your colleagues, even where they are fraglantly breaching the law. One of the major recommendations of the Garda Ombusdman recently was for the Gardai to do more external recruitment, particularly at graduate level.

There is a lot more to running a fire service than the dramatic major incidents. Most of it is boring, behind-the-scenes work, which saves more lives than anything that happens at any given fire incident.

Paulzx

Look, i am not questioning the importance of the administrative role that a senior fire officer carries out.
However, part of their responsibilities are also an operational role. The fact that they might attend only one fire a year is irrelavent. As far as operational FF's are concerned they do not have the first hand experience to do this job.

I do in fact understand what a fire officers attendance at a scene entails in terms of his personal responsibility. This makes it even more of an imperative that he knows what he is doing and has adequate operational experience in firefighting. An officer that has progressed up the ranks and commanded all levels of incidents over some years is infinitely more experienced than most of our ACFO's and CFO's

I fail to understand what a cohort of corrupt Gardai in Donegal has to do with discussion on the operational merits of senior fire officers.

" Fire Services aren't dumb"
Anyone here working in the Fire Services will have a good laugh at that one:D

Beano

Paulzx wrote: »

You obviously have absolutely no idea how the Fire Services in Ireland operate. The recruit FF in my station has probably attended more fires than all them senior officers together. Any FF that posts on here will back this up.

It is a common misconception that a Chief Fire Officer is someone who has spent his life at the business end of firefighting when in fact this couldnt be further from the truth.

any truth in the rumour that when a previous CFO in DFB attended his first fire he put his helmet on backwards?

Smokey Bear

You mean like this guy who had just given an interview and put his Gallet on the wrong way:D:D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/firefighter0793/3538874254/

Beano

Smokey Bear wrote: »

You mean like this guy who had just given an interview and put his Gallet on the wrong way:D:D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/firefighter0793/3538874254/

lol. this would havew been in the pre-Gallet days though

jos22

anyone know the story about fire charges for apartments
and charges for waterford in general.

say earlier tonight the alarm went off in the building we went down to check it out and noticed the smell of smoke some of the other resident saw smoke and fire.
all of which were foreign and little english so ask us to phone it in. when they got here it turned out to be false alarm one of the building behind us was a restround which had a minor fire which they put out them selfs which was the source of the smoke and flames the others saw which trigger our alarm. now we just wandering will be we hit will a bill for them having to come out since we made the call

timmywex

jos22 wrote: »

anyone know the story about fire charges for apartments
and charges for waterford in general.

say earlier tonight the alarm went off in the building we went down to check it out and noticed the smell of smoke some of the other resident saw smoke and fire.
all of which were foreign and little english so ask us to phone it in. when they got here it turned out to be false alarm one of the building behind us was a restround which had a minor fire which they put out them selfs which was the source of the smoke and flames the others saw which trigger our alarm. now we just wandering will be we hit will a bill for them having to come out since we made the call

Afaik the management company will get the charge

jos22

timmywex wrote: »

Afaik the management company will get the charge

thanks hope your right.
I do not agree with fire charges although I will grant them that some people would calling them out unnecessary but then again it better to be safe than sorry

amadain17

I had an accident at 6.00am in the morning going to work when my car hit black ice and I skidded out of control into a ditch. The car turned onto its side. A car behind me called 999 and an ambulance, police and fire brigade arrived. While I was waiting standing there on the slippy road the gritter passed by me and gritted my feet. I thought nothing of this until this morning when a bill arrived from wicklow co co for €1087 for fire services. Now 1. I never called the fire brigade, 2. They were not needed as the car was not on fire and I did not need to be cut out or anything (the car hit the ditch sideways on the glasslike road surface). The fire brigade actually did nothing except turn up. The bill for over €1000 for not actually doing anything except turn up uninvited is amazing to me. What happens if I refuse to pay? Do the council have the right to bring me to court over this?

Shield

Try posting this in Legal Discussion, just don't ask for legal advice.

amadain17 wrote: »

I had an accident at 6.00am in the morning going to work when my car hit black ice and I skidded out of control into a ditch. The car turned onto its side. A car behind me called 999 and an ambulance, police and fire brigade arrived. While I was waiting standing there on the slippy road the gritter passed by me and gritted my feet. I thought nothing of this until this morning when a bill arrived from wicklow co co for €1087 for fire services. Now 1. I never called the fire brigade, 2. They were not needed as the car was not on fire and I did not need to be cut out or anything (the car hit the ditch sideways on the glasslike road surface). The fire brigade actually did nothing except turn up. The bill for over €1000 for not actually doing anything except turn up uninvited is amazing to me. What happens if I refuse to pay? Do the council have the right to bring me to court over this?

scab

When you ring 999 the first question they ask you is your name, address and contact number. I would imagine that the person who made the call should be the person who gets billed for the fire services even though it wasnt for them. There was a case a few months ago I remember reading about it in a magazine where a lady witnessed a very bad car crash. There were two cars involved and they hit head on. She was travelling behind one of the cars. Both drivers of the cars were trapped in the cars and there was smoke rising from the engines. She rang 999 and the guards, an ambulance and the fire brigade arrived at the scene. Once she seen that they were getting helped she carried on on her journey. Both occupants of the cars had to be cut out of the cars and taken to hospital while the guards directed traffic. The lady a couple of weeks later received a bill for almost €6,000 for doing a good deed and possibly saving two peoples lifes. Very unfair I know but thats the way it is. I wonder if it would be possible for you to find out who actually made the emergency call or even if you have the number plate of the car it may help to trace that person. I wish you the very best of luck.

Our man in Havana

Very unfair I know but thats the way it is.

And most likely constitutionally unsound. I am surprised that no one has taken this to a superior court.

Our man in Havana

amadain17 wrote: »

What happens if I refuse to pay? Do the council have the right to bring me to court over this?

They can take you to court but I doubt they would win.

amadain17

If angelfire9 is reading this thread still can you tell me how you got on with the fire brigade charges? Have you paid them yet? Did the council try to take you to court over them?

Zuppy

The fire service charges are levelled at the beneficial user of the service. (I have nothing to do with billing so can't give exact advice).

If you had an accident then the fire service needs to turn up. While you state that you were fine and not in need of being cut out, your car needs to be made safe. And since the fire service gets turned out with the knowledge that there has been a car crash they arrive in some cases just to sweep the debris up or in others to multiple persons trapped. Either way its personal and vehicles mobilised which is a cost. I don't defend the charges as I believe tax's should cover these charges. As for the charges, well a recent thread on this forum discussed them and how they greatly varied between local authorities.

jos22

amadain17 wrote: »

I had an accident at 6.00am in the morning going to work when my car hit black ice and I skidded out of control into a ditch. The car turned onto its side. A car behind me called 999 and an ambulance, police and fire brigade arrived. While I was waiting standing there on the slippy road the gritter passed by me and gritted my feet. I thought nothing of this until this morning when a bill arrived from wicklow co co for €1087 for fire services. Now 1. I never called the fire brigade, 2. They were not needed as the car was not on fire and I did not need to be cut out or anything (the car hit the ditch sideways on the glasslike road surface). The fire brigade actually did nothing except turn up. The bill for over €1000 for not actually doing anything except turn up uninvited is amazing to me. What happens if I refuse to pay? Do the council have the right to bring me to court over this?

look up the wavier systems for your local area.
it can cancel the fee and or reduce it if it would cause undue hardship apparently.

one of these days people could dying in fire due to people fearing the bill they receive for phoning it in.

Our man in Havana

one of these days people could dying in fire due to people fearing the bill they receive for phoning it in.

I have no doubt about that.

My neighbours house was on fire. I went over in a panic to find them fighting the fire with garden hoses and kettles of water. I said I would call the fire brigade, they said no as they would only charge the guts of a grand. Luckily we got the fire out quickly.

Zuppy

Bond-007 wrote: »

I have no doubt about that.

My neighbours house was on fire. I went over in a panic to find them fighting the fire with garden hoses and kettles of water. I said I would call the fire brigade, they said no as they would only charge the guts of a grand. Luckily we got the fire out quickly.

Seems to be a common belief. Poeple passing fires/rtc etc thinking that if they call that they will be charged.