Priests and confessionals

steppen

here is one thing i never understood,

if you a person goes to a priest and confesses a murder, or that he's a serial child molester,

i mean in the case of someone coming everyweek, and confessing the horrible things that they did that week,

can the priest report it? do they usually?

chaotic dream

emm as far as i know, technically they can't, but I dunno if they do.

I doubt most murderers/child molesters would confess to doing anything though. To confess means admitting what you did was wrong and if they felt like that they wouldn't repeatedly commit the crimes.

seamus

I don't know. For some reason, I seem to think that in the case of serious crime, the answer is "yes", they can and do report it.

I don't know why I think that though.

It's worth noting that when a priest hears about any crime in the confessional, he's breaking the law by failing to report it to the Gardai. Theoretically he's then guilty of a sin himself.

steppen

chaotic dream wrote: »

emm as far as i know, technically they can't, but I dunno if they do.

I doubt most murderers/child molesters would confess to doing anything though. To confess means admitting what you did was wrong and if they felt like that they wouldn't repeatedly commit the crimes.

yeah but they could look at it like that they are being giving absolution for their sins, so the continue to do what they do, go to confession,...clean slate, continue

Holsten

As far as I'm aware they keep everything to themselves, the Seal of the Confessional.

As they say it's between you and "God".

But we all know just how honest the Catholic Church is....

suspectdevice

steppen wrote: »

here is one thing i never understood,

if you a person goes to a priest and confesses a murder, or that he's a serial child molester,

i mean in the case of someone coming everyweek, and confessing the horrible things that they did that week,

can the priest report it? do they usually?

come on, what have you done then?

Fringe

I go to a Catholic school and one of the priests there teaching religion was asked a similar question. Basically, they aren't allowed to tell anything. We kept on trying to make him blurt sometihng out but he just kept on saying he couldn't say anything.

flanum

seamus wrote: »

It's worth noting that when a priest hears about any crime in the confessional, he's breaking the law by failing to report it to the Gardai. Theoretically he's then guilty of a sin himself.

So you are saying it is a sin to break any irish law?

"Thou shalt not break any rules created by whichever current political party happens to be in government at the time?"

Is it a venal or cardinal sin?

ScumLord

steppen wrote: »

can the priest report it? do they usually?

Would God report you? No. partly because he can't talk due to being fictional but then priests are fictional too.

I wonder can priests have a laugh between them selfs about what they hear in confession by having a priestly confession group?

Mena

If the "priest" keeps schtumm about the confessed crime he should go down with the perp and rot in jail.

ScumLord

Mena wrote: »

If the "priest" keeps schtumm about the confessed crime he should go down with the perp and rot in jail.

Even if the guy smokes the odd spliff, runs a red light or doesn't pay his tv license? Bit severe sending a priest to jail for that don't you think?

randylonghorn

steppen wrote: »

can the priest report it? do they usually?

No, the seal of the confessional is absolute. Throughout history, priests have been imprisoned, tortured and even killed for refusing to divulge what they have heard in the confessional. The breaking of the confessional seal carries automatic excommunication, reserved to the Holy See. To the true believer, the death of the body was of far less consequence than the death of the soul.

steppen wrote: »

yeah but they could look at it like that they are being giving absolution for their sins, so the continue to do what they do, go to confession,...clean slate, continue

That doesn't hold up, as to receive absolution there must be sincere regret and the intention not to repeat the fault ... someone who goes to confession to have the slate wiped clean with the intention of repeating the same action is not in fact absolved in the first place. Assuming the offender has enough faith to seek absolution in the first place, they will know this ... it's very basic doctrine.

seamus wrote: »

It's worth noting that when a priest hears about any crime in the confessional, he's breaking the law by failing to report it to the Gardai. Theoretically he's then guilty of a sin himself.

Incorrect. To uphold the seal of the confessional is never sinful in the eyes of the church. What is more, the US Federal Court held that the 4th Amendment precludes any attempt by a law agency to tape, overhear or interfere with the process of confession, and any evidence garnered from such an attempt is inadmissible. While not exactly the same as declaring that they would protect the confessional seal in all circumstances, it does indicate the respect which even the legal system of a large multi-denominational country like the US affords to sacramental confession.

seamus wrote: »

I don't know. For some reason, I seem to think that in the case of serious crime, the answer is "yes", they can and do report it.

I don't know why I think that though.

I don't either. I have heard it argued that where the offender does not show any signs of genuine remorse or the intention to reform ... where, in fact, the conditions for absolution are not met ... the confession could be held not to be genuine and therefore the seal would not apply. I suppose an example would be where someone used the confessional simply to boast of his crimes in an environment where he felt "safe". I'm not sure if that is more than a theological debate though. Certainly, I doubt that any priest outside tv-land has ever felt so secure in his own judgement on that point as to make the call and breach the seal ...

AckwelFoley

steppen wrote: »

here is one thing i never understood,

if you a person goes to a priest and confesses a murder, or that he's a serial child molester,

i mean in the case of someone coming everyweek, and confessing the horrible things that they did that week,

can the priest report it? do they usually?

no.. brcause in most cases its themselves in the mirror thats doing all the confessing.

randylonghorn

snyper wrote: »

no.. brcause in most cases its themselves in the mirror thats doing all the confessing.

Leave Mirror out of it ... he doesn't need you dredging up all those painful memories!

ryoishin

No, he cannot break the seal of the the sacramnet of reconcilliation.

But Ireland is shying away from the confession box and there would be a distinction between a chat and requesting the sacrament.

sham08

a) Yes

b) That would be an ecuminical matter
:pac:

Mena

ScumLord wrote: »

Even if the guy smokes the odd spliff, runs a red light or doesn't pay his tv license? Bit severe sending a priest to jail for that don't you think?

I was addressing the OP's points re: Murder and serial child molestation.

The Hill Billy

Mena wrote: »

he should go down on the perp

Fixed that for ya.

seamus

randylonghorn wrote: »

While not exactly the same as declaring that they would protect the confessional seal in all circumstances, it does indicate the respect which even the legal system of a large multi-denominational country like the US affords to sacramental confession.

Also irrelevant in this country
If I thought it would do any good, I would advocate tapping confessionals. Of course, that would be unlikely to pick up any actual crimes, and more likely to be used to find who Mary Murphy from above the shop is sleeping with.

Pretty conclusive answer so to the OP: No.

Still doesn't absolve the priest from the fact that he's committing a crime by not reporting it to the Gardai.

Steve_o

He can't break the seal of reconsilliation but he can hint generally, i.e. he can say that someone came in and confessed a murder, he just cant say who it was.

Fratton Fred

do people still go to confessionals?

It's weird to someone who has never been, what's it like?

Steve_o

Fratton Fred wrote: »

do people still go to confessionals?

It's weird to someone who has never been, what's it like?

Little room with a thing to kneel on, priest is on the other side of a little graty thing, the annoying thing is finding the bloody door handle on the way out!

Fratton Fred

Steve_o wrote: »

Little room with a thing to kneel on, priest is on the other side of a little graty thing, the annoying thing is finding the bloody door handle on the way out!

sounds like a description of the scene last time George Michael was arrested

The Hill Billy

In an instance where a serious crime has been confessed I would imagine that the priest would encourage the person to present themselves to the Gardaí. The premise being that if they were truly sorry for their sins & they genuinely wished to seek absolution then they must be prepared to suffer the consequences of their actions.

biko

seamus wrote: »

For some reason, I seem to think that in the case of serious crime, the answer is "yes", they can and do report it.

Seal of the Confessional is the absolute confidentiality for Roman Catholic priests.

If a single priest broke the seal of confession and the press got wind of it, do you think people would still go, even for petty things?

Steve_o

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sounds like a description of the scene last time George Michael was arrested

lol:D It does!!!

Fony Tenton

Steve_o wrote: »

lol:D It does!!!

In the early hours of October 1, 2006, Michael was found unconscious in his Mercedes-Benz S-Class car, causing an obstruction at the junction of Cricklewood Lane with Hendon Way, in northwest London. Police found Michael slumped in his seat in a semi-conscious state. He was taken to the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead for checks, and was then booked in at Colindale police station.

?????????????

ScumLord

Fratton Fred wrote: »

do people still go to confessionals?

It's weird to someone who has never been, what's it like?

You should go in for the craic.

You start off saying "bless me father for I have sinned, it has been so many many months since my last confession" Then you tell your sins.

randylonghorn

seamus wrote: »

Also irrelevant in this country .

Technically, yes. However, if the US legal system is prepared to bend that far to protect the confessional, can you really see our judiciary doing less?

seamus wrote: »

If I thought it would do any good, I would advocate tapping confessionals. Of course, that would be unlikely to pick up any actual crimes, and more likely to be used to find who Mary Murphy from above the shop is sleeping with.

You know the old joke about the young guy who goes into confession, and confesses to having had "carnal knowledge" of a young woman from the locality? The priest demands to know who it is, and when the bould cocksmith won't tell him, proceeds to ask if it is X or Y or Z. When mo dhuine still refuses to answer the question, he is dismissed irritably with double the penance for his recalcitrance.

When he leaves the box, he kneels down beside his pal who is due to go in next, who whispers to know how he got on.

"Ah, 'twasn't all that bad," sez he, "and I got 3 red hot tips for next weekend ..."

seamus wrote: »

Still doesn't absolve the priest from the fact that he's committing a crime by not reporting it to the Gardai.

One of the areas where the religious and the secular will always be in conflict. I doubt however that any priest considers themselves to be committing a crime in upholding the seal, though I am sure that there have been times when many have agonised over being in possession of information which they may not reveal.

Hill Billy wrote: »

In an instance where a serious crime has been confessed I would imagine that the priest would encourage the person to present themselves to the Gardaí. The premise being that if they were truly sorry for their sins & they genuinely wished to seek absolution then they must be prepared to suffer the consequences of their actions.

Exactly ... kind of what I was getting at above.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sounds like a description of the scene last time George Michael was arrested

Fony Tenton wrote: »

In the early hours of October 1, 2006, Michael was found unconscious in his Mercedes-Benz S-Class car, causing an obstruction at the junction of Cricklewood Lane with Hendon Way, in northwest London. Police found Michael slumped in his seat in a semi-conscious state. He was taken to the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead for checks, and was then booked in at Colindale police station.

?????????????

Ok, maybe not the last time he was arrested, but I can see what Fred is getting at!

javaboy

Steve_o wrote: »

He can't break the seal of reconsilliation but he can hint generally, i.e. he can say that someone came in and confessed a murder, he just cant say who it was.

I think charades are an acceptable way of passing info to the authorities without actually breaking the seal of the confessional. Hold on til I check the Idiot's Guide to the Priesthood.......

Yep. Charades are ok. You can also pass information along by setting up an elaborate series of clues involving paintings, architecture, albinos and puzzles.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

javaboy

Mr Crystal wrote: »

No they just suggest a game of cluedo to the guards and change the names to suspects. Fact.

Posted via Mobile Device

Have you ever seen priests play Cluedo? It takes them 3 hours to play and they forget to put the cards in the envelope so it's pointless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI7AosW--OI

Posted via cherubs floating on fluffy clouds

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

Fratton Fred

Fony Tenton wrote: »

In the early hours of October 1, 2006, Michael was found unconscious in his Mercedes-Benz S-Class car, causing an obstruction at the junction of Cricklewood Lane with Hendon Way, in northwest London. Police found Michael slumped in his seat in a semi-conscious state. He was taken to the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead for checks, and was then booked in at Colindale police station.

?????????????

ok smart arse

Fratton Fred

ScumLord wrote: »

You should go in for the craic.

You start off saying "bless me father for I have sinned, it has been so many many months since my last confession" Then you tell your sins.

How many Hail Mary's do I get for being a proddy

oranjeboom

As far as I know it doesn't even have to be in a confessional. It also is not restricted to priests. When anyone goes to whatever person - priest, rabbi etc and seek advice that person can claim the person was seeking counsel. The person they tell can try to make the perp come clean. The person the perp confides in can break their silence but must get special permission from their relevant boss ie the Pope in the case of priests. But yes the Roman Catholic Church to think the death of soul is far more important than the death of the body.

ScumLord

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many Hail Mary's do I get for being a proddy

I don't think mary can save you from that one. Maybe leave that one till last.. "wait a minute, this isn't my church".. runs away.

Run_to_da_hills

THere has been a history of child sex autrocities with the clergy in this country, I doubt if the priests involved in them reported it them selves when they made their own confessions and if they did was there a lid kept on it. .

oranjeboom

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

THere has been a history of child sex autrocities with the clergy in this country, I doubt if the priests involved in them reported it them selves when they made their own confessions and if they did was there a lid kept on it. .

A certain Bishop I know was booted from a very high ranking position to a lowly position and booted from parish to parish because of his lets say relationships within the community. It's not only in this country the priests had a problem its also in the states, but I dont think it was as widely reported there.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I'd imagine that, if said murderer/child molester is confessing such a sin, then they must be both religious and remourseful.

The priest would be more likely to encourage the man to either turn himself in (thus doing away with the guilty conscience and allowing the priest, to a certain degree, to maintain any legal obligations) or to atone for such sins directly.

Run_to_da_hills

oranjeboom wrote: »

A certain Bishop I know was booted from a very high ranking position to a lowly position and booted from parish to parish because of his lets say relationships within the community. It's not only in this country the priests had a problem its also in the states, but I dont think it was as widely reported there.

Ferns case with Fr Fortune is a classic example.

The Bollox

I'm sure if the Priest wrote it down and a police officer just 'happened' to come across it then it would be fine. the priest didn't tell anyone anything but the police department can still prosecute and a murderer / peadophile is off the streets. anyway I'm sure God would forgive the Priest as the end justifies the means

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Bollox wrote: »

I'm sure if the Priest wrote it down and a police officer just 'happened' to come across it then it would be fine. the priest didn't tell anyone anything but the police department can still prosecute and a murderer / peadophile is off the streets. anyway I'm sure God would forgive the Priest as the end justifies the means

Deffo breach of confidentially there: also, I don't think such evidence would stand up in court without a witness.

The Bollox

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Deffo breach of confidentially there

not really

if a close friend told you a secret and you thought it was the funniest thing you ever heard, you might wanna write it down to give yourself a chuckle at a later date when you are feeling blue. you're keeping the secret to yourself but it's not guaranteed that someone won't stumble across it

oranjeboom

The Bollox wrote: »

not really

if a close friend told you a secret and you thought it was the funniest thing you ever heard, you might wanna write it down to give yourself a chuckle at a later date when you are feeling blue. you're keeping the secret to yourself but it's not guaranteed that someone won't stumble across it

Ya but a secret is not as serious as a confessional. The priest has taken an oath, what is said in confession stays in confession.

The Bollox

oranjeboom wrote: »

Ya but a secret is not as serious as a confessional. The priest has taken an oath, what is said in confession stays in confession.

ok so he would probably get expelled from the priesthood for breaking the oath if he went to the police about a child molester who confessed. but would it be a different story if he outed a child molester who attacked the Bishops nephew / niece?

oranjeboom

The Bollox wrote: »

ok so he would probably get expelled from the priesthood for breaking the oath if he went to the police about a child molester who confessed. but would it be a different story if he outed a child molester who attacked the Bishops nephew / niece?

I would imagine it would be the same no matter what he said. If they have to break the silence of confession they have to get the say so from the Pope. It can be done AFAIK. Personally I dont care what oath or creed is taken if someone has done wrong they should be reported.

But your point, I would think that if it was personal to the priest how could he stay quiet.

The Bollox

oranjeboom wrote: »

But your point, I would think that if it was personal to the priest how could he stay quiet.

which is why I didn't way the priests niece / nephew and instead said the Bishops. obviously if the man confessed to molesting the priests family member nothing would prevent the priest from saying something, expulsion wouldn't come into the equation for him.

However if it was a family member of the Bishop he would have to think long and hard about what to do: stay quiet and let the guilt consume him or say something and face expulsion and possibly worse

oranjeboom

The Bollox wrote: »

which is why I didn't way the priests niece / nephew and instead said the Bishops. obviously if the man confessed to molesting the priests family member nothing would prevent the priest from saying something, expulsion wouldn't come into the equation for him.

However if it was a family member of the Bishop he would have to think long and hard about what to do: stay quiet and let the guilt consume him or say something and face expulsion and possibly worse

I suppose he would have to to a lot of soul searching and way up the pro's and cons. I wouldnt be able to keep quiet I know that for sure. Hence Im not a priest. I also haven't a clue how the inner workings of the clergy function. I wonder could he go to the Bishop and to a hypothetical situation and see what he says.

The Bollox

oranjeboom wrote: »

I suppose he would have to to a lot of soul searching and way up the pro's and cons. I wouldnt be able to keep quiet I know that for sure. Hence Im not a priest. I also haven't a clue how the inner workings of the clergy function. I wonder could he go to the Bishop and to a hypothetical situation and see what he says.

something along the lines of "your Grace, I have a moral question: if you found out through a confessional a family member of a friend was being molested, would you honour your oath of silence or speak to someone"

it's a tough one alright

oranjeboom

The Bollox wrote: »

something along the lines of "your Grace, I have a moral question: if you found out through a confessional a family member of a friend was being molested, would you honour your oath of silence or speak to someone"

it's a tough one alright

Well I'd imagine it would be if he has decided to be a priest. Im sure they hear all sorts of things not just molestation.