Unfair Tag Rugby Grades

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

perhaps you should write to the IRFU? complaining on boards really won't achieve much. (sorry mods!!!)

I've already complained directy to those concerned;) I stared this tread to see if our experience was typical.

Someone from the IRFU chose to use this forum to promote their tag rugby league but then decided to keep their mouth shut when asked a question to back up their claims.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've already complained directy to those concerned;) I stared this tread to see if our experience was typical.

Someone from the IRFU chose to use this forum to promote their tag rugby league but then decided to keep their mouth shut when asked a question to back up their claims.

sorry, tongue-in-cheek can lose something in text!

i'm basing this on my experience as a tag ref, getting complained to by some teams. i asked certain people high up in the organisation and was given that answer. problems would arise if you tried to change the number of teams in a certain league even a week into the season; there's only X number of weeks, for which you can play X number or fixtures. more teams won't work, with the best will in the world. I have sympathy with the players, but it's a bit of an honour system. if the all blacks decided to sign up for c grade, what can the organisers do?

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

sorry, tongue-in-cheek can lose something in text!

i'm basing this on my experience as a tag ref, getting complained to by some teams. i asked certain people high up in the organisation and was given that answer. problems would arise if you tried to change the number of teams in a certain league even a week into the season; there's only X number of weeks, for which you can play X number or fixtures. more teams won't work, with the best will in the world. I have sympathy with the players, but it's a bit of an honour system. if the all blacks decided to sign up for c grade, what can the organisers do?

Gwtting what seems to be the standard Answer ie "its an honour system" is a lot less than satisfactory when so many teams seem to be abusing the system.

I would think that the best way forward would be to register the players not just the team names. This way if the there is a dramatic turn around in a teams results or one team is seen to be of too high a standard things can be checked out properly.

And if a team have brought in ringers or "subs" as I belive to have been the case in the incident that started this tread, I believe that the result should be turned over and the guilty team placed on a warning/have points deducted in the league. Furthermore there is a faciltiy for this in the regulations but from what I've seen those administrating the league are simply unwilling to implement them.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Gwtting what seems to be the standard Answer ie "its an honour system" is a lot less than satisfactory when so many teams seem to be abusing the system.

I would think that the best way forward would be to register the players not just the team names. This way if the there is a dramatic turn around in a teams results or one team is seen to be of too high a standard things can be checked out properly.

And if a team have brought in ringers or "subs" as I belive to have been the case in the incident that started this tread, I believe that the result should be turned over and the guilty team placed on a warning/have points deducted in the league. Furthermore there is a faciltiy for this in the regulations but from what I've seen those administrating the league are simply unwilling to implement them.

yeah, but it's not the heineken cup. if someone's going to bring in a ringer, big deal.

i once made a team forfeit a match because they took a player who'd already played that evening, which is explicitly against the rules.

isn't life a bit short to worry about this sort of thing?

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

yeah, but it's not the heineken cup. if someone's going to bring in a ringer, big deal.

i once made a team forfeit a match because they took a player who'd already played that evening, which is explicitly against the rules.

isn't life a bit short to worry about this sort of thing?

1 or 2 guys I dont really mind, its just a bit sad, we were up against 4 or 5, the match got out of hand and became very physical mostly down to the agressive and ott manner in which they were playing.

It wasn't in the spirit that we would expect grade C to played.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

1 or 2 guys I dont really mind, its just a bit sad, we were up against 4 or 5, the match got out of hand and became very physical mostly down to the agressive and ott manner in which they were playing.

It wasn't in the spirit that we would expect grade C to played.

physical or agressive play should be penalised, it sounds like you had a weak ref rather than anything else. i have no hesitating in sin-binning at the first sign of dangerous play.

though you hit the nail on the head when you say that it's sad. i couldn't agree with you more. it's meant to be a bit of craic; what's the point in winning 20-0 every night?

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've already complained directy to those concerned;) I stared this tread to see if our experience was typical.

Someone from the IRFU chose to use this forum to promote their tag rugby league but then decided to keep their mouth shut when asked a question to back up their claims.

I'm not dodging any questions. We don't have this problem with any of our leagues who are going through their second season because we have managed to move teams successfully and early enough without disrupting the league stages. The way we do this is by contacting all captains involved and making the necessary changes. You asked about this problem surfacing three weeks in. I don't know about what would happen after three weeks in because it doesn't happen. There is no formula in place except the communication side because this is the best option should changes be required to be made.

As I said earlier, the problem we find is when a venue is starting for the first time as the poster in one of our venues has experienced. The venue manager there has made the moves in splitting the teams into similar ability as much as they can.

I just read your suggestion about registering players too. Each captain registers a teamsheet before each game and a record is kept of every player present. This is also undertaken for insurance reasons and is mandatory.

The registration stage is based on the honour system. If a team was 'sharking' they would be removed with a refund if they refused to accept changes.

The over-competitive nature which seems to rear its ugly head from time to time is clamped down upon and referee reports of any incidents are treated as seriously as any AIL, ML or ERC referee reports and consulted with our Referees Dept. We want everyone to enjoy their time playing the game and the game is only half the fun. I agree with you wholeheartedly about how the spirit of the game and grades should be. The playerbase is just that: A playerbase. Not a bunch of anonymous customers.

I don't visit these forums that often, which is why I suggested you contact us via our Contact Us online form as these get read and answered quickly.

Justin.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

I just read your suggestion about registering players too. Each captain registers a teamsheet before each game and a record is kept of every player present. This is also undertaken for insurance reasons and is mandatory.

but the players can be different every week, really its just the name of the team that is actually registered.

Worrytahs wrote: »

The registration stage is based on the honour system. If a team was 'sharking' they would be removed with a refund if they refused to accept changes.

that is actually pretty much the answer I was looking for.

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

but the players can be different every week, really its just the name of the team that is actually registered

In the first week, the teamsheet is blank and the names must be written in by hand before being given over to VM at desk. These names are then transcribed to the teamsheet in time for the second week onwards so when a captain comes to register before their game, the teams are already on sheet and only require a tick beside the names present (saves time actually). Additional names not on teamsheet are written in by hand then. And the teamsheet is then stored on database for next week. Double-ups will then show up in system.
It works actually.

Climate Expert

Tag rugby is the biggest joke going. I thought I would try and play a bit and get back into rugby but I didnt realised how near impossible it is to get on a team.

I thought the whole thing was meant to be a bit of lighthearted fun but you seemingly eveybody takes it deadly seriously. How sad.

Its turned me back to playing juniour rugby in September for a real fix.

Tim Robbins

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Teams entering lower leagues just so they can say they've won something doesn't just happen in Tag Rugby... J5 cups are a joke.

Then again, it probably happens in every sport.

I reffed a J5 match and it was almost up to J2 standard.

GreenHell

Second season playing tag, work team playing in C grade because players are all at different levels.

Getting a pick tired of playing against teams who pull off great lines, switches and what not. Half way through a season you should really be able to spot what levels all the teams are at and maybe handicap in favour of weaker teams.

Its a social league but you honestly wouldn't think it after some of the games I've played in and it takes away from the enjoyment.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

In the first week, the teamsheet is blank and the names must be written in by hand before being given over to VM at desk. These names are then transcribed to the teamsheet in time for the second week onwards so when a captain comes to register before their game, the teams are already on sheet and only require a tick beside the names present (saves time actually). Additional names not on teamsheet are written in by hand then. And the teamsheet is then stored on database for next week. Double-ups will then show up in system.
It works actually.

that actually sounds like a reasonable system. fair play.

Amz

Some of the refereeing has also left a bit to be desired. Certain teams in C grade have been overly physical, I've had to replace two pairs of tag shorts and throw out a t-shirt because they were ripped by over eager eejits.

justdoit

I've been playing ITRA tag since the days of tag belts, and the same problems will continue to arise.

There are often teams in the A league who get stuffed each week, having chosen a venue that was conveniently close to their office or similar, and vice versa with C league teams who liked a venue, should be playing at a higher level, but availability wasn't there.

The organisers cannot be blamed for this, IMO, and I agree that it can be frustrating, but the likelihood of coming against teams of ringers week in, week out, is not great.

The IRFU method of recording player details sounds like a good initiative which could minmise (but not eliminate) some of the problems.

Any league, in any sport, will have certain imbalances. Look at the SPL, with two good teams and a load of rubbish 'fillers' (no offence intended). At the end of the day, everyone must agree that tag is designed as a bit of fun, but that said, a lot of people have a competitive streak and enjoy winning which, when handled correctly, is not a bad thing.

I have stopped playing men's tag, because it got petty and the 'spirit' was too often lost, but I am still loving playing mixed, at A,B and C levels.

Last note would be not to blame the referees either- I have been guilty of this in the past, but these guys and girls are volunteers trying to their bit to ensure that everyone has fun. They do their best to keep things under control, and the more level headed amongst us should be able to help us do their job, by keeping the whole tag experience in context.

Rant over. Now, if the only the sun would come out for my 1915h kick-off...

Amz

Most of the referees are great, but there have been 2 specifically this year who left a lot to be desired and who allowed games to be ruined letting certain things go that should have been sorted out in the first few minutes.

I play rugby and so physicality isn't an issue per se, it's when it's meant to be a non contact sport and I'm getting clothes torn off me and the ref stands there and laughs, that I have a problem. The particular team responsible are one of the top teams in the grade I play in and I sincerely hope that they're moved up next year as there's no place for their behaviour in a C grade league.

dub_skav

Amz wrote: »

Most of the referees are great, but there have been 2 specifically this year who left a lot to be desired and who allowed games to be ruined letting certain things go that should have been sorted out in the first few minutes.

I play rugby and so physicality isn't an issue per se, it's when it's meant to be a non contact sport and I'm getting clothes torn off me and the ref stands there and laughs, that I have a problem. The particular team responsible are one of the top teams in the grade I play in and I sincerely hope that they're moved up next year as there's no place for their behaviour in a C grade league.

Sounds like there's no place for their behaviour in tag rugby at any grade. Referees need to penalise and yellow card these players from week 1, then there is no confusion.

I play rugby and I'm a pretty big lad. I've played tag at A, B & C grades and I have never run into a girl or knocked a girl over (I had to limit that to girls as some lads have run straight into me and ended up on the ground). I see no reason for any contact bar very obviously accidental.
In my opinion if that is not your attitude you should not be playing tag.

So I suppose I agree with previous posters saying that players should control themselves, but I also believe refs should implement their much talked about zero tolerance policy on contact.

valleyoftheunos

Amz wrote: »

Some of the refereeing has also left a bit to be desired. Certain teams in C grade have been overly physical, I've had to replace two pairs of tag shorts and throw out a t-shirt because they were ripped by over eager eejits.

Having high standard teams in low standard grades causes a problem because beginner refs are placed in lower grades (naturally), but aren't able to keep up with high standard teams or are intimidated. In fairness though, this isn't the ref's fault.

Competitvness isn't the issue, I played last night in a very competitive grade c game that ultimately we lost by a single girl try. However the oppo played fully within the spirt of the game, were always friendly and gracious and there was cheeting or pushing of the rules in any shape or form.

If however a team are competitve but express this by systematically being offside at the roll back, constantly making contact or running at people, engage in sledging or are abusive to the other team it requires a very experienced ref to handle that and the best refs are sent to higher leagues.

Amz

These particular referees are not beginners and are all IRFU affiliated, I've seen them ref AIL Div 2 and 3 games so that's not an excuse. Intimidated maybe, but it's not lack of experience.

Nukem

Just started playing tag this year and I play Junior rugby and the level of seriousness from some people is scary - even for me. Playing in grade C and people giving body checks and the whole lot, its a bit OTT. Some of my mates play rugby as well but its generally just for a run or through work.

Seen some teams and i know for a fact that they should be in a higher grade and spoiling it for everyone. In the end its a bit of fun and thats all

Amz wrote: »

These particular referees are not beginners and are all IRFU affiliated, I've seen them ref AIL Div 2 and 3 games so that's not an excuse. Intimidated maybe, but it's not lack of experience.

Spoke with a ref friend of mine and he basically said that they get paid more money for a few hours work and a percent of the hassle compared to reffing a AIL/Junior match. But some of the refs are brutal, but in their defense you have people who just haven't played before and if a major injury happens the ref is some way responsible........etc.....CYA

Worrytahs

Amz wrote: »

These particular referees are not beginners and are all IRFU affiliated, I've seen them ref AIL Div 2 and 3 games so that's not an excuse. Intimidated maybe, but it's not lack of experience.

Are they refereeing in the IRFU Tag programme? If so, let us know some specifics please by emailing us at tag@irishrugby.ie or by PMing me here.

Luckycharm

Worrytahs wrote: »

Are they refereeing in the IRFU Tag programme? If so, let us know some specifics please by emailing us at tag@irishrugby.ie or by PMing me here.

Worrytahs I see you are getting a bit of abuse here :rolleyes:;)

Amz

Luckycharm wrote: »

Worrytahs I see you are getting a bit of abuse here :rolleyes:;)

Elaborate please?

If Worrytahs is prepared to advertise and encourage participation in the IRFU tag he has to be answerable for it too. This is a discussion forum.

However, if personal abuse is being directed towards Worrytahs as a result of his association with the IRFU tag I will be taking a very dim view of it.

Amz

Worrytahs wrote: »

Are they refereeing in the IRFU Tag programme? If so, let us know some specifics please by emailing us at tag@irishrugby.ie or by PMing me here.

I believe our captain was in contact with organisers on the nights in question. If not I'll forward that email address to him.

Johnny Utah

I'd be interested in playing tag rugby at beginner level, but after reading this thread it sounds like a bit of a joke.

Do I just turn up at a venue on the night, or do I have to be part of a team beforehand?

Amz

It can depend on the venue, who the organisers are i.e. ITRA or IRFU. It can also depend on the weather, on horrible evenings like yesterday a lot of people cry off and teams are sometimes left without subs.

I wouldn't call it a joke either. when you have a few bad experiences during a game it can ruin the fun, but when it's run well and everyone is keeping the spirit of the game i.e. no contact, just a bit of fun, then it's great.

valleyoftheunos

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I'd be interested in playing tag rugby at beginner level, but after reading this thread it sounds like a bit of a joke.

Do I just turn up at a venue on the night, or do I have to be part of a team beforehand?

Last week was a disater but this week on two seperate nights in two seperate venes in terrible conditions I played in two excellent, competitve and fair games, both of which I happened to lose by less than a girl try.

Great fun and a fantastic antidote to a tough day in work.

You need to be in a team before hand but there are teams practising in just about every park in Dublin most evenings it seems, Last Monday in Herbert park in Ballsbridge/Donnybrook, every single space had a team practicing in it. get chatting to some of them and you might find a game.

Downtime

Amz wrote: »

These particular referees are not beginners and are all IRFU affiliated, I've seen them ref AIL Div 2 and 3 games so that's not an excuse. Intimidated maybe, but it's not lack of experience.

Hmmm. I have see IRFU Tag in operation on Wednesdays and Thursdays in Belvo and only one of the referees was an AIL referee - none of the others are.

Worrytahs

Downtime wrote: »

Hmmm. I have see IRFU Tag in operation on Wednesdays and Thursdays in Belvo and only one of the referees was an AIL referee - none of the others are.

At least 90% of our referees at that venue especially are Leinster Branch referees of some degree. Through all four provinces, some starting out having a course or two behind them and others are more experienced and of a higher grade. The incoming head of the Dept's Refs with us is a junior international, ERC and ML referee (Peter Fitzgibbon). Ref assessment is also carried out with consultation with the IRFU Referees Dept.

Amz

Downtime wrote: »

Hmmm. I have see IRFU Tag in operation on Wednesdays and Thursdays in Belvo and only one of the referees was an AIL referee - none of the others are.

The same refs aren't there every week. Our coach from last year refs there and he's an AIL ref, but he hasn't been there every week.