Unfair Tag Rugby Grades

valleyoftheunos

I'm playing Mixed Social grade c on two seperate nights with ITRA, the quality is unreal from some teams, grade b and ocassionally a. its really limiting our enjoyment.

One team is very new but has some good players and the other team was promoted from the beginners league last year, I'm certain that we are in the right grade for our fitness and ability. We dont mind getting beat if its a fair match but on almost every occasion this season we have been up against highly skilled experienced rugby players, these guys should be grade B at least.

Is anyone else having similar experiences?

Downtime

It is a joke but it is not ITRA's fault really. Teams are getting stupid and entering grades where they know they will win 80% of their games and have a chance winning the whole things. ITRA suggest grades but don't really follow up on it after that. We did well in begineers last year and 80% of our team were beginners but came up against a team in the final who were in the beginners league for 2 years and are in it again. This year we are in grade C and getting stuffed.

ITRA don't really care where you play - it is all about the money for them. IRFU is a better more enjoyable competition and the grading seems a bit fairer.

Sabre0001

Last year entered a C league with some people who were really beginners...Was tough but enjoyable (I enjoy being up against the odds ). True, there are some teams who drop a grade so that they can win but just try to have fun.

ozt9vdujny3srf

IRFU have tag?

valleyoftheunos

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Last year entered a C league with some people who were really beginners...Was tough but enjoyable (I enjoy being up against the odds ). True, there are some teams who drop a grade so that they can win but just try to have fun.

We knew we would be up against it and were looking forward to the challenge but had a very unpleasent experience this week where a team who had lost their previous matches v badly suddenly turned into ripped speedy rugby pros who intimidated us and the ref to the point where the game got quite physical.

Our verdict is they got some ringers in, I spoke to the venue manager just to raise the point and make him aware of the situation but its very disapointing and frustrating.

Downtime

Ahmad Unsightly Flapjack wrote: »

IRFU have tag?

Yep - in its second year now. All refs are IRFU affiliated i.e. branch referees. www.irfutag.ie

Downtime

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I spoke to the venue manager just to raise the point and make him aware of the situation but its very disapointing and frustrating.

You might as well be talking to the wall.

valleyoftheunos

yeah, hes a good guy, said he'd look into it but there wasn't an awful lot he could do. Which isn't good enough really, we're paying to be there and its supposed to be at a certain level, they should at least attempt to take steps to make sure it is.

were gonna carry on though, we are unlikely to come up against them again and it was more their attitude (and the freaking tackles!) that annoyed us more than loosing so badly.

dc69

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

(and the freaking tackles!) that annoyed us more than loosing so badly.

Do you not just have to pull off a flag?

valleyoftheunos

dc69 wrote: »

Do you not just have to pull off a flag?

thats exactly what your supposed to do, didn't stop these guys though. The ref left them away at it aswell, should have been a yellow card or two.

Sparky14

we are unlikely to come up against them again and it was more their attitude (and the freaking tackles!) that annoyed us more than loosing so badly.[/quote]

I hate that, played a few teams over the last couple of years that had one or two lads who think they are big shots, ie trying to intimidate and just being overly aggresive. I'm all for being competitive, but theres a limit. I mean it has all the point of going dominating in u12s, just so u feel like a big man. In general tho even their own teams seem to get tired of these guys.

valleyoftheunos

Sparky14 wrote: »

I hate that, played a few teams over the last couple of years that had one or two lads who think they are big shots, ie trying to intimidate and just being overly aggresive. I'm all for being competitive, but theres a limit. I mean it has all the point of going dominating in u12s, just so u feel like a big man. In general tho even their own teams seem to get tired of these guys.

My sentiments entirely, if its one or two guys its not really a big deal, you just front up to them a little bit, this week however it was every one of them! One of our girls is 5'2 and 7 stone, they spent the entire match charging down at her, totally unnecessary and against the spirt of the game.

Ah well onwards and upwards.

ndolan

We entered a beginners team with people who never played before. We are dumped in with a bunch a teams with A and B teams all in the same league.
The Garda A team destroyed us last week with their regular rugby team and we are up against them again tonight
:-(
The organisers said it was because there wasn't enough teams to have different divisions. It does take some of the fun out of it though.
Hopefully there will be more teams next year as it is the first year that Westmanstown has hosted the league

Sabre0001

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

We knew we would be up against it and were looking forward to the challenge but had a very unpleasent experience this week where a team who had lost their previous matches v badly suddenly turned into ripped speedy rugby pros who intimidated us and the ref to the point where the game got quite physical.

Our verdict is they got some ringers in, I spoke to the venue manager just to raise the point and make him aware of the situation but its very disapointing and frustrating.

Poor form! Happened against us too - a team who were beaten down quite badly a number of times played us and had some really classy players. We saw the same team playing a playoff match (5th v 6th-them) - those players were missing and they got annihilated...Justice felt good

mikedragon32

Teams entering lower leagues just so they can say they've won something doesn't just happen in Tag Rugby... J5 cups are a joke.

Then again, it probably happens in every sport.

kippy

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Teams entering lower leagues just so they can say they've won something doesn't just happen in Tag Rugby... J5 cups are a joke.

Then again, it probably happens in every sport.

I must admit this happens a lot.
ITRA here in Galway have a lot of "Open Social" leagues, probably because its too hard to grade a full team into a specific division. Howevever this is wide open to abuse.
I would suggest that the rules of tag (in that you can register different players for your team every night) and indeed the "grading" system are all open to abuse.
I am part of a second year at it team but there are a good few of us on the team who only started playing this year. We hammered two teams at the start and lost to one of the best teams I have seen so far. Theres definetly disparity amoung the levels but no real way to fix it unless you draw random static players from a pool of people who want to play at the beginning of the year. Obviously this doesnt suit all.
Its a fun game and in fairness I dont think people need to be so competitive about it in the first place.
Kippy

Worrytahs

ndolan wrote: »

We entered a beginners team with people who never played before. We are dumped in with a bunch a teams with A and B teams all in the same league.
The Garda A team destroyed us last week with their regular rugby team and we are up against them again tonight
:-(
The organisers said it was because there wasn't enough teams to have different divisions. It does take some of the fun out of it though.
Hopefully there will be more teams next year as it is the first year that Westmanstown has hosted the league

There were three pullouts from teams who basically had a very keen captain upon whom everything was left to organise and was subsequently let down when it came to the crunch of starting off. There are only two B grade teams really there. The rest are C.

The venue is, as you say, in its first year and a great spot with a top venue manager who will make sure that all who participate have a memorable summer. Next year will be much more graded and will have three leagues of 8.

Be it us or ITRA running the tag at whatever venue, a lot rides on the honesty of teams at the registration stage. The 'competitive' players out there in C and Beginners grades should remember that this is Tag they are playing and not the 6N or 'Sloe and as you say, its a fun for all way of playing a version of rugby and not having to withstand contact on-field

(by the way, feel free to email or phone me if you've any issues at your venue with us. The 'Contact Us' form is available on www.irfutag.ie.

All the best for the summer.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

Be it us or ITRA running the tag at whatever venue, a lot rides on the honesty of teams at the registration stage. The 'competitive' players out there in C and Beginners grades should remember that this is Tag they are playing and not the 6N or 'Sloe and as you say, its a fun for all way of playing a version of rugby and not having to withstand contact on-field

Thats all very well but the rest of us are all paying to join these leagues and we aren't having a satisfactory or enjoyable experience. When it comes time for me to ask my team if they want to sign up for a mid summer league or even next summer I know that after our experiences this year about half of them wont be interested because the grades are so poorly managed and unbalanced.

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Thats all very well but the rest of us are all paying to join these leagues and we aren't having a satisfactory or enjoyable experience. When it comes time for me to ask my team if they want to sign up for a mid summer league or even next summer I know that after our experiences this year about half of them wont be interested because the grades are so poorly managed and unbalanced.

With new venues its very difficult to pluck out a 'shark' team until a couple of weeks have passed. Not all teams show up for the Open Night which precedes a season.
With existing venues, our venue managers are excellent at checking that the right teams are in the right grades as they have one season behind them as a reference point.
With feedback of the season so far received in mind, the IRFU's Tag programme, Budweiser Tag, is going very well indeed in this respect.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

With new venues its very difficult to pluck out a 'shark' team until a couple of weeks have passed. Not all teams show up for the Open Night which precedes a season.
With existing venues, our venue managers are excellent at checking that the right teams are in the right grades as they have one season behind them as a reference point.
With feedback of the season so far received in mind, the IRFU's Tag programme, Budweiser Tag, is going very well indeed in this respect.

Ok so what happens when, after three games, they spot a team that are in the wrong grade?

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Ok so what happens when, after three games, they spot a team that are in the wrong grade?

Hasnt happened at any of our venues from last year so my answer would only be speculative.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

Hasnt happened at any of our venues from last year so my answer would only be speculative.

So speculate,

Surely there is a procedure for such an occurance?

jdivision

Not that I'm aware of, once you're in you're in.

valleyoftheunos

jdivision wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of, once you're in you're in.

That would certainly seem to be the case.

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

So speculate,

Surely there is a procedure for such an occurance?

No, I won't speculate. If you want to pitch a question to us, do feel free to email us or use the 'Contact Us' page in the Tag section of the Irish Rugby website.

highgiant1985

Worrytahs wrote: »

No, I won't speculate. If you want to pitch a question to us, do feel free to email us or use the 'Contact Us' page in the Tag section of the Irish Rugby website.

sorry but thats a complete cop out of an answer...

gar_29

another issue is that some grades fill up quickly, so a team that wanted to play, say, B grade, find that it's full cos that didn't register early, and are then left with the option of either playing A grade and getting beaten every week, or C grade and having a walk in the park.

most go for the lower grade. not very much can be done about it, unfortunately.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

No, I won't speculate. If you want to pitch a question to us, do feel free to email us or use the 'Contact Us' page in the Tag section of the Irish Rugby website.

Thats a complete cop out, in one post you tell us that you are "Excellent" in your management of venues and grades and then when I ask you for the procedure concerning teams in incorrect grades you wont answer because you'd be speculating as apparently there is no procedure.

That is far from "excellent" managment.

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

another issue is that some grades fill up quickly, so a team that wanted to play, say, B grade, find that it's full cos that didn't register early, and are then left with the option of either playing A grade and getting beaten every week, or C grade and having a walk in the park.

most go for the lower grade. not very much can be done about it, unfortunately.

If the demand is there more B grade leagues should be run. And I dont accept the suggestion that nothing can be done, All players should be fully registered and if it transpires that they are more experienced players they should either be told sorry but there is no avaiability for your grade or extra capacity should be added.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

If the demand is there more B grade leagues should be run. And I dont accept the suggestion that nothing can be done, All players should be fully registered and if it transpires that they are more experienced players they should either be told sorry but there is no avaiability for your grade or extra capacity should be added.

perhaps you should write to the IRFU? complaining on boards really won't achieve much. (sorry mods!!!)

Amz

Worrytahs, if you're going to use this forum to promote the IRFU tag, the least you could do is go into further detail if/when something about IRFU tag is queried.

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

perhaps you should write to the IRFU? complaining on boards really won't achieve much. (sorry mods!!!)

I've already complained directy to those concerned;) I stared this tread to see if our experience was typical.

Someone from the IRFU chose to use this forum to promote their tag rugby league but then decided to keep their mouth shut when asked a question to back up their claims.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've already complained directy to those concerned;) I stared this tread to see if our experience was typical.

Someone from the IRFU chose to use this forum to promote their tag rugby league but then decided to keep their mouth shut when asked a question to back up their claims.

sorry, tongue-in-cheek can lose something in text!

i'm basing this on my experience as a tag ref, getting complained to by some teams. i asked certain people high up in the organisation and was given that answer. problems would arise if you tried to change the number of teams in a certain league even a week into the season; there's only X number of weeks, for which you can play X number or fixtures. more teams won't work, with the best will in the world. I have sympathy with the players, but it's a bit of an honour system. if the all blacks decided to sign up for c grade, what can the organisers do?

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

sorry, tongue-in-cheek can lose something in text!

i'm basing this on my experience as a tag ref, getting complained to by some teams. i asked certain people high up in the organisation and was given that answer. problems would arise if you tried to change the number of teams in a certain league even a week into the season; there's only X number of weeks, for which you can play X number or fixtures. more teams won't work, with the best will in the world. I have sympathy with the players, but it's a bit of an honour system. if the all blacks decided to sign up for c grade, what can the organisers do?

Gwtting what seems to be the standard Answer ie "its an honour system" is a lot less than satisfactory when so many teams seem to be abusing the system.

I would think that the best way forward would be to register the players not just the team names. This way if the there is a dramatic turn around in a teams results or one team is seen to be of too high a standard things can be checked out properly.

And if a team have brought in ringers or "subs" as I belive to have been the case in the incident that started this tread, I believe that the result should be turned over and the guilty team placed on a warning/have points deducted in the league. Furthermore there is a faciltiy for this in the regulations but from what I've seen those administrating the league are simply unwilling to implement them.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

Gwtting what seems to be the standard Answer ie "its an honour system" is a lot less than satisfactory when so many teams seem to be abusing the system.

I would think that the best way forward would be to register the players not just the team names. This way if the there is a dramatic turn around in a teams results or one team is seen to be of too high a standard things can be checked out properly.

And if a team have brought in ringers or "subs" as I belive to have been the case in the incident that started this tread, I believe that the result should be turned over and the guilty team placed on a warning/have points deducted in the league. Furthermore there is a faciltiy for this in the regulations but from what I've seen those administrating the league are simply unwilling to implement them.

yeah, but it's not the heineken cup. if someone's going to bring in a ringer, big deal.

i once made a team forfeit a match because they took a player who'd already played that evening, which is explicitly against the rules.

isn't life a bit short to worry about this sort of thing?

valleyoftheunos

gar_29 wrote: »

yeah, but it's not the heineken cup. if someone's going to bring in a ringer, big deal.

i once made a team forfeit a match because they took a player who'd already played that evening, which is explicitly against the rules.

isn't life a bit short to worry about this sort of thing?

1 or 2 guys I dont really mind, its just a bit sad, we were up against 4 or 5, the match got out of hand and became very physical mostly down to the agressive and ott manner in which they were playing.

It wasn't in the spirit that we would expect grade C to played.

gar_29

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

1 or 2 guys I dont really mind, its just a bit sad, we were up against 4 or 5, the match got out of hand and became very physical mostly down to the agressive and ott manner in which they were playing.

It wasn't in the spirit that we would expect grade C to played.

physical or agressive play should be penalised, it sounds like you had a weak ref rather than anything else. i have no hesitating in sin-binning at the first sign of dangerous play.

though you hit the nail on the head when you say that it's sad. i couldn't agree with you more. it's meant to be a bit of craic; what's the point in winning 20-0 every night?

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

I've already complained directy to those concerned;) I stared this tread to see if our experience was typical.

Someone from the IRFU chose to use this forum to promote their tag rugby league but then decided to keep their mouth shut when asked a question to back up their claims.

I'm not dodging any questions. We don't have this problem with any of our leagues who are going through their second season because we have managed to move teams successfully and early enough without disrupting the league stages. The way we do this is by contacting all captains involved and making the necessary changes. You asked about this problem surfacing three weeks in. I don't know about what would happen after three weeks in because it doesn't happen. There is no formula in place except the communication side because this is the best option should changes be required to be made.

As I said earlier, the problem we find is when a venue is starting for the first time as the poster in one of our venues has experienced. The venue manager there has made the moves in splitting the teams into similar ability as much as they can.

I just read your suggestion about registering players too. Each captain registers a teamsheet before each game and a record is kept of every player present. This is also undertaken for insurance reasons and is mandatory.

The registration stage is based on the honour system. If a team was 'sharking' they would be removed with a refund if they refused to accept changes.

The over-competitive nature which seems to rear its ugly head from time to time is clamped down upon and referee reports of any incidents are treated as seriously as any AIL, ML or ERC referee reports and consulted with our Referees Dept. We want everyone to enjoy their time playing the game and the game is only half the fun. I agree with you wholeheartedly about how the spirit of the game and grades should be. The playerbase is just that: A playerbase. Not a bunch of anonymous customers.

I don't visit these forums that often, which is why I suggested you contact us via our Contact Us online form as these get read and answered quickly.

Justin.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

I just read your suggestion about registering players too. Each captain registers a teamsheet before each game and a record is kept of every player present. This is also undertaken for insurance reasons and is mandatory.

but the players can be different every week, really its just the name of the team that is actually registered.

Worrytahs wrote: »

The registration stage is based on the honour system. If a team was 'sharking' they would be removed with a refund if they refused to accept changes.

that is actually pretty much the answer I was looking for.

Worrytahs

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

but the players can be different every week, really its just the name of the team that is actually registered

In the first week, the teamsheet is blank and the names must be written in by hand before being given over to VM at desk. These names are then transcribed to the teamsheet in time for the second week onwards so when a captain comes to register before their game, the teams are already on sheet and only require a tick beside the names present (saves time actually). Additional names not on teamsheet are written in by hand then. And the teamsheet is then stored on database for next week. Double-ups will then show up in system.
It works actually.

Climate Expert

Tag rugby is the biggest joke going. I thought I would try and play a bit and get back into rugby but I didnt realised how near impossible it is to get on a team.

I thought the whole thing was meant to be a bit of lighthearted fun but you seemingly eveybody takes it deadly seriously. How sad.

Its turned me back to playing juniour rugby in September for a real fix.

Tim Robbins

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Teams entering lower leagues just so they can say they've won something doesn't just happen in Tag Rugby... J5 cups are a joke.

Then again, it probably happens in every sport.

I reffed a J5 match and it was almost up to J2 standard.

GreenHell

Second season playing tag, work team playing in C grade because players are all at different levels.

Getting a pick tired of playing against teams who pull off great lines, switches and what not. Half way through a season you should really be able to spot what levels all the teams are at and maybe handicap in favour of weaker teams.

Its a social league but you honestly wouldn't think it after some of the games I've played in and it takes away from the enjoyment.

valleyoftheunos

Worrytahs wrote: »

In the first week, the teamsheet is blank and the names must be written in by hand before being given over to VM at desk. These names are then transcribed to the teamsheet in time for the second week onwards so when a captain comes to register before their game, the teams are already on sheet and only require a tick beside the names present (saves time actually). Additional names not on teamsheet are written in by hand then. And the teamsheet is then stored on database for next week. Double-ups will then show up in system.
It works actually.

that actually sounds like a reasonable system. fair play.

Amz

Some of the refereeing has also left a bit to be desired. Certain teams in C grade have been overly physical, I've had to replace two pairs of tag shorts and throw out a t-shirt because they were ripped by over eager eejits.

justdoit

I've been playing ITRA tag since the days of tag belts, and the same problems will continue to arise.

There are often teams in the A league who get stuffed each week, having chosen a venue that was conveniently close to their office or similar, and vice versa with C league teams who liked a venue, should be playing at a higher level, but availability wasn't there.

The organisers cannot be blamed for this, IMO, and I agree that it can be frustrating, but the likelihood of coming against teams of ringers week in, week out, is not great.

The IRFU method of recording player details sounds like a good initiative which could minmise (but not eliminate) some of the problems.

Any league, in any sport, will have certain imbalances. Look at the SPL, with two good teams and a load of rubbish 'fillers' (no offence intended). At the end of the day, everyone must agree that tag is designed as a bit of fun, but that said, a lot of people have a competitive streak and enjoy winning which, when handled correctly, is not a bad thing.

I have stopped playing men's tag, because it got petty and the 'spirit' was too often lost, but I am still loving playing mixed, at A,B and C levels.

Last note would be not to blame the referees either- I have been guilty of this in the past, but these guys and girls are volunteers trying to their bit to ensure that everyone has fun. They do their best to keep things under control, and the more level headed amongst us should be able to help us do their job, by keeping the whole tag experience in context.

Rant over. Now, if the only the sun would come out for my 1915h kick-off...

Amz

Most of the referees are great, but there have been 2 specifically this year who left a lot to be desired and who allowed games to be ruined letting certain things go that should have been sorted out in the first few minutes.

I play rugby and so physicality isn't an issue per se, it's when it's meant to be a non contact sport and I'm getting clothes torn off me and the ref stands there and laughs, that I have a problem. The particular team responsible are one of the top teams in the grade I play in and I sincerely hope that they're moved up next year as there's no place for their behaviour in a C grade league.

dub_skav

Amz wrote: »

Most of the referees are great, but there have been 2 specifically this year who left a lot to be desired and who allowed games to be ruined letting certain things go that should have been sorted out in the first few minutes.

I play rugby and so physicality isn't an issue per se, it's when it's meant to be a non contact sport and I'm getting clothes torn off me and the ref stands there and laughs, that I have a problem. The particular team responsible are one of the top teams in the grade I play in and I sincerely hope that they're moved up next year as there's no place for their behaviour in a C grade league.

Sounds like there's no place for their behaviour in tag rugby at any grade. Referees need to penalise and yellow card these players from week 1, then there is no confusion.

I play rugby and I'm a pretty big lad. I've played tag at A, B & C grades and I have never run into a girl or knocked a girl over (I had to limit that to girls as some lads have run straight into me and ended up on the ground). I see no reason for any contact bar very obviously accidental.
In my opinion if that is not your attitude you should not be playing tag.

So I suppose I agree with previous posters saying that players should control themselves, but I also believe refs should implement their much talked about zero tolerance policy on contact.

valleyoftheunos

Amz wrote: »

Some of the refereeing has also left a bit to be desired. Certain teams in C grade have been overly physical, I've had to replace two pairs of tag shorts and throw out a t-shirt because they were ripped by over eager eejits.

Having high standard teams in low standard grades causes a problem because beginner refs are placed in lower grades (naturally), but aren't able to keep up with high standard teams or are intimidated. In fairness though, this isn't the ref's fault.

Competitvness isn't the issue, I played last night in a very competitive grade c game that ultimately we lost by a single girl try. However the oppo played fully within the spirt of the game, were always friendly and gracious and there was cheeting or pushing of the rules in any shape or form.

If however a team are competitve but express this by systematically being offside at the roll back, constantly making contact or running at people, engage in sledging or are abusive to the other team it requires a very experienced ref to handle that and the best refs are sent to higher leagues.

Amz

These particular referees are not beginners and are all IRFU affiliated, I've seen them ref AIL Div 2 and 3 games so that's not an excuse. Intimidated maybe, but it's not lack of experience.

Nukem

Just started playing tag this year and I play Junior rugby and the level of seriousness from some people is scary - even for me. Playing in grade C and people giving body checks and the whole lot, its a bit OTT. Some of my mates play rugby as well but its generally just for a run or through work.

Seen some teams and i know for a fact that they should be in a higher grade and spoiling it for everyone. In the end its a bit of fun and thats all

Amz wrote: »

These particular referees are not beginners and are all IRFU affiliated, I've seen them ref AIL Div 2 and 3 games so that's not an excuse. Intimidated maybe, but it's not lack of experience.

Spoke with a ref friend of mine and he basically said that they get paid more money for a few hours work and a percent of the hassle compared to reffing a AIL/Junior match. But some of the refs are brutal, but in their defense you have people who just haven't played before and if a major injury happens the ref is some way responsible........etc.....CYA