Disaster. Snappy snap crack :(

Sparks

Craptacular:

May 23, 2008
Snappy disaster.

Was moving the rifles from the safe at home to the safe in DURC so that I could train there during lunchtime. As I’m walking, the strap on the Anschutz rucksack bag undid itself and the bag fell off my shoulder and dropped the three feet to the ground. It’s happened once or twice before (though on grass) so I didn’t panic, I just picked it up and walked into the range. Then when I was taking the rifle out of the bag to put it in the safe I noticed the bag was bending where it shouldn’t be bending.







Disaster. The sintered stock has had several complaints over the years on the net about people having exactly this happen to them - the pistol grip is apparently a weak point in the design. I’d been planning on buying a Peli17xx case next month for just this reason as well.

*sigh*

And I liked that stock, it was damn easy to adjust and I’d set it up properly for myself. At least all the adjustments can be carried over to a new stock fairly easily, even the customisation of the pistol grip (by just taking off the pistol grip and moving it to the new stock).

Well, I keep hearing about the fabulous after-care you get from Anschutz and it’s why I bought from them in the first place, so it’s time to fire up the email client and send them a “Help!” email. They don’t make the 2002CA anymore though, so I don’t know if they still have stocks. Fingers crossed…

E. Fudd

OOH thats sore looking! I have no idea how much that costs, but it looks damn expensive. Sorry for you're misfortune sparks!

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Craptacular:

your home insurance will cover it

Sparks

Afraid not jw, I wasn't at home at the time, was in Trinity, carrying my rifles from my office to the range.

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

Afraid not jw, I wasn't at home at the time, was in Trinity, carrying my rifles from my office to the range.

That's what your 'Unspecified All Risks' is for. I've my new FWB as a named All Risk - don't fancy paying for a second one if I drop the bloody thing.

patbundy

yuck..how much for a new one sparks

IRLConor

patbundy wrote: »

yuck..how much for a new one sparks

~£850, he only needs the stock.

Anschütz might do him a deal though since it's a known fault.

patbundy

lucky, to honest i was expecting to be alot more.how long will it take to get a replacement

rrpc

Sorry for your trouble Sparks :mad:. I've also heard of this happening, but never actually seen the evidence before.

Is there not some clever metalworker that could repair that for you? A couple of pins and a bit of welding whould do the trick I would have thought. Aluminium can be welded you know.

patbundy

rrpc aluminium is very hard to weld, it dosent take the heat well.sparks stock looks like its cast aliminium

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Afraid not jw, I wasn't at home at the time, was in Trinity, carrying my rifles from my office to the range.

should do.. i have a two grand out side the house on mine , it will cover lost broken or stolen unspecified personal possessions out side the policys address.as do most of my shooting friends . i know a lad broke his shot gun stock a few weeks ago and his insurance will pay for it

rrpc

patbundy wrote: »

rrpc aluminium is very hard to weld, it dosent take the heat well.sparks stock looks like its cast aliminium

It's hard, but not impossible, I've seen it done with MIG welders and although it can be a little messy it does work. Cast aluminum is a little difficult, but the added pins should help.

IRLConor

patbundy wrote: »

lucky, to honest i was expecting to be alot more.how long will it take to get a replacement

Yeah, if it was the whole rifle that needed replacing it would be €2k+.

If it was solid machined aluminium it could be welded but since it's sintered I wouldn't hold out much hope.

Hopefully Anschütz will do a deal. If not, get on the phone to your friendly neighbourhood demonloop.

Sparks

Thing is, aluminium's hard to weld and sintered aluminium more so from what I remember Basicly, it's get a new part time
And my home insurance definitely won't cover it more's the pity
Hopefully Anschutz will have a spare bit lying about and I can just drop the action and barrel and cheekpiece and all the other bits into the new stock.
And hopefully it won't be as much as €850 - Anschutz's after-sales support is a bit of a legend, and it was in one of their rifle slips. If they won't replace a broken part that's a known problem when the strap on one of their protective bags fails, well, I'd be most surprised and unhappy

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

Yeah, if it was the whole rifle that needed replacing it would be €2k+.

If it was solid machined aluminium it could be welded but since it's sintered I wouldn't hold out much hope.

Isn't sintered aluminium better for heat resistance and machining?

I would have thought that would make it easier to weld.

patbundy

its very hard to repair cast aliminiun rrpc.even looking at the pictures a few times,it looks like a clean break but its hard to see how far the stress is gone on the broken ends.when we break cast aliminium we find its cheaper to replace them,plus it will never feel the same.its shame though

Grizzly 45

Sparks,Fear not!!
If you have no joy in getting a replacement,which I think youwill without any bother.
I have an welder down here in Limerick who does exellent TiG work.Last week a garage broke my thermostat cover on my jeep engine.Moan groan from the garage to order parts etc,take a week or two blah blah.I took it down to a stainless steel maker.The lads poked around for 20 mins and welded it back together.While ugly.It is still working and holding together,and considering the high temp,expansion&compression pressure and vibrations it has to take it is holding up fine.And that is cast aluminium.As an Ex welder,I can say they did a clean job on a very awkward bit.

Ok,it wont look beautiful,but it will work.Be prepared to lose paint and finish.The trick is to let the part cool down at it's own speed.Dont try to hurry the cooling process.
If U are stuck give us a shout.
In the meantime,to get you shooting again.I suggest JB WELD aluminium glue.It's a bit hard to find.But I have glued some alu bits together,which are still holding.
ASFIK sinterd is supposedly easier to heat work?

Sparks

I dunno Grizzly - everything I've found on welding SAP (Sintered Aluminum Powder) is going on about CO2 laser welding and other wierd and esoteric methods

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is, aluminium's hard to weld and sintered aluminium more so from what I remember Basicly, it's get a new part time
And my home insurance definitely won't cover it more's the pity
Hopefully Anschutz will have a spare bit lying about and I can just drop the action and barrel and cheekpiece and all the other bits into the new stock.
And hopefully it won't be as much as €850 - Anschutz's after-sales support is a bit of a legend, and it was in one of their rifle slips. If they won't replace a broken part that's a known problem when the strap on one of their protective bags fails, well, I'd be most surprised and unhappy

id change insurance co so

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

I dunno Grizzly - everything I've found on welding SAP (Sintered Aluminum Powder) is going on about CO2 laser welding and other wierd and esoteric methods

Most of that stuff is about maintaining the heat resistance of the SAP after the weld is complete. The stock does not require that particular attribute of SAP, so TIG welding as Grizzly said will work fine.

Mightn't be pretty mind, but it will be solid. Btw, I've read that you can reduce the heat by welding with the item partially submerged in water.

Sparks

Cool rrpc, in that case I'll take it over to the mech.eng department's workshop if Anschutz can't get me a spare and get one of their lot to do me a quick favour

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Cool rrpc, in that case I'll take it over to the mech.eng department's workshop if Anschutz can't get me a spare and get one of their lot to do me a quick favour

At least you could be back in action quickly and sure what have you got to lose at this stage?

Sparks

True that. I'll wait to hear from Anschutz first, just in case they say "stick it in the post, we'll send you a new one". Sending them a repaired stock for replacement might not be well received

patbundy

hope you get sorted sparks

thehair

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks,Fear not!!
If you have no joy in getting a replacement,which I think youwill without any bother.
I have an welder down here in Limerick who does exellent TiG work.Last week a garage broke my thermostat cover on my jeep engine.Moan groan from the garage to order parts etc,take a week or two blah blah.I took it down to a stainless steel maker.The lads poked around for 20 mins and welded it back together.While ugly.It is still working and holding together,and considering the high temp,expansion&compression pressure and vibrations it has to take it is holding up fine.And that is cast aluminium.As an Ex welder,I can say they did a clean job on a very awkward bit.

Ok,it wont look beautiful,but it will work.Be prepared to lose paint and finish.The trick is to let the part cool down at it's own speed.Dont try to hurry the cooling process.
If U are stuck give us a shout.
In the meantime,to get you shooting again.I suggest JB WELD aluminium glue.It's a bit hard to find.But I have glued some alu bits together,which are still holding.
ASFIK sinterd is supposedly easier to heat work?

+1 i am also a welder TIG is the only man for that job PS i hope you get
it fixed sparks:(

bigred

rrpc wrote: »

Most of that stuff is about maintaining the heat resistance of the SAP after the weld is complete. The stock does not require that particular attribute of SAP, so TIG welding as Grizzly said will work fine.

Mightn't be pretty mind, but it will be solid. Btw, I've read that you can reduce the heat by welding with the item partially submerged in water.

Welcome all to the brand new 'Welding Forum - where we know our MiG from our TiG'

Sorry to hear that Sparks, however there are plenty of CA2002 stocks over across the water so if Anschutz don't help I am sure you can pick up a stock second hand.

Main thing is that the barrel and action are working, and you will have all of the 'important' bits such as the cheek piece, sights and buttplate so while its an awful thing to happen, it could have been an awful lot worse.

Grizzly 45

Basically any welding is glueing two pieces of metal together using a filler metal under very high temp.To create this high temp ,you can pass a variable electric current thru a soft metal rod,called depending on the type of welding done,an arc welding rod,or coiled wire as in MIG or arod as in Tig welding.In breif you are ceating an electrical short between two pieces of metal.
Three types of electrical most commonly used.
ARC Welding.The most common known to us all.Bright blue intense[and dangerous to look at without shielding] light.Melting a soft metal rod coverd in a powdr like substance[called flux] by electrical current.Flux is designed to cover the weld to prevent oxidation[IE Rust] in the hot metal mix occuring.This is used for welding big chunks of steel,cast iron[with alot of luck and heat]

MIG,Not a Russian Jet .Mixed inert gas welding.[but was developed for the aircraft industry]Same principle but at your welding torch head there is high pressure inert gas being forced out in a cone to drive away any oxygen at the weld.Wire is fed from the machine into the arc,where it melts to become the weld.This welding type is used on light thin metal ,like car panels etc.

Tig Tungsten Inert Gas. A specialist weld used on stainless steel and aluminium,and some other exotic metal.The gas must not react with the metallic gases created in the flux to cause oxidation.So again the cone of inert gas is forced out to cover the weld area.You feed in by hand a light rod of aluminium,or whatever the metal is into the weld area.Proably the least dramatic and surgical [all the metal needs to be spotless and the work area like an operating theater]and complex[getting the correct voltages right for the metal content] of the welding processes.
Hope that helps somwhat.

It wasn't me!

That sucks Sparks. Any word from Anschutz about it?

Sparks

Nothing yet IWM, but it is the weekend!

Sparks

And thanks everyone for the offers of help, they're very much appreciated!

It wasn't me!

Best of luck with it anyway. I've read a few reports of this happening, so may be inclined to shy away from the Anschutz aluminium stocks in future myself.

Sparks

I'm told that they've redesigned the alu stocks since to avoid this problem IWM. (Which is cold comfort, but still )

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

I'm told that they've redesigned the alu stocks since to avoid this problem IWM. (Which is cold comfort, but still )

Ah, that's good so. I'm sure Anschutz will be accommodating. From reading Stirton, they seem to bend over backwards in cases like this.

kerryman12

rrpc wrote: »

Isn't sintered aluminium better for heat resistance and machining?

I would have thought that would make it easier to weld.

AS a rule aluminium is not easy to weld - but it is possible. Because it is cast it mean you need to do a lot of preparatory work first - heating up the section involved etc. The question is - is it worth while in this case. You best bet is talk to Anschutz and only if you are getting no where look at a repair job. Then look for a coded welder with experiance of welding Aluminium and the correct equipment to do the job - a standard MIG welder will not be good enough with some bolt ons etc.

On a seperate note in relation to JW's posts. Are firearms covered under contents in a standard home insurance policy or do they need to be specifically nenbtioned. Also in relation to the cover outside the house can you give a little more infor- is this part of a standard policy or was it a special request?

demonloop

Sparks, I'm assuming you're not an NSRA member, and thus covered, but I know of one example of a home contents policy covering a damaged rifle, it was a wooden thumhole stock that was dropped and broken.

Most policies will cover items up to £1000 without the need for them to be specifically named on the policy, and its only sports equipment after all.

Worth a try if Anschutz doesn't come up with a solution, as I suspect they might. They are usually quite accommodating to be fair, if not I suspect they might get you a good discount on a replacement, if he does feel free to suggest that I'd happily get it charged to me and sent over with an order.

Thats all assuming they have stock of the *ahem* stocks

If no discount/replacement is forthcoming I'm sure we can set up a very cheap one for you, cost+shipping.

PM me if you need any help as mentioned above

Sparks

Sounds great demonloop, and I might throw in an order for a peli case (either a 1700 or a 1720) while I was at it

Sparks

demonloop wrote: »

Sparks, I'm assuming you're not an NSRA member, and thus covered

Ooo, actually minor problem there - at least one of our shooters down here (an NTSA lad) was over in La Hague a few years back and had all his kit stolen (bar his rifles). His Irish insurance refused to pay out because he was out of the country, and the NSRA insurance refused to pay out because he was from the ROI. As far as I know, the NSRA won't insure any ROI people anymore because they won't pay out and rather than take your money and stiff you later (and expose themselves to lawsuits), they just won't insure you at all. Last time I looked, anyway.

demonloop

You could be right about the insurance, the underwriter is English based and might not cover ROI, that wouldn't surprise me actually.

The offer still stands if you get any joy from Anschutz, I get stuff over every 2 weeks or so and it would be easy to stick it in the box.

IRLConor

demonloop wrote: »

You could be right about the insurance, the underwriter is English based and might not cover ROI, that wouldn't surprise me actually.

I need to check the exact details but as far as I know the NSRA will insure RoI shooters but only for claims which originate in the UK.

bigred

IRLConor wrote: »

I need to check the exact details but as far as I know the NSRA will insure RoI shooters but only for claims which originate in the UK.

Trinity is UK soil is it not? :D:D

bigred

bigred wrote: »

Trinity is UK soil is it not? :D:D

Careful now... I believe that your watch lies on 'British Soil' and you wouldn't want for it to get lost now or anything would you???

Say 'I love the Queen' ten times and then maybe you can get it back.

Renegade_Archer

Even if the stock could be welded, could you ever trust it again? Every wild shot from then on would have an extra suspect...

rrpc

Renegade_Archer wrote: »

Even if the stock could be welded, could you ever trust it again? Every wild shot from then on would have an extra suspect...

Not really, so long as it was welded straight, it should have no impact on the functioning of the rifle. The break is behind the action, so even if it wasn't spot on, the adjustments on the butt would be able to negate any misalignment.

Sparks

Uwe got back to me this morning (he's been in Munich and then Milan) and they still carry the spare part and it'll cost me €280, which I can live with. I'm worried about a repeat though, so I asked if they've seen this before. Either way, it looks like a chunk of the next paycheque is now spoken for
(I looked more closely at where the break is - it's right on the spot where the cheekpiece bolts meet the stock so it'd be a bloody awkward weld to do since you couldn't distort that part very much or have any sloppy stuff around the join, so I'm just going to go with the new part I think. And a peli case ).

milkerman

Hi Sparks,
Have you considered gluing & pinning the break by using an epoxy glue and aluminium strip 'splint' screwed in place? It wont be pretty but would get you out of a jam while you are waiting for the new stock.
I have used an epoxy putty to do 'temporary' repairs on aluminium. Two years on the repair is still holding up. Cant remember the name of the product but it comes in a clear plastic tube with the motto 'Sets like steel' on the outside.

Sparks

Might give it a try just for the heck of it milker, even if only to tide me over until the new part gets here.

Rovi

There are some amazing adhesives in use in the aviation/automotive industries, to the point of replacing welding and other mechanical means of joining components.
That said, I've looked at the photos of the broken component again, and that certainly looks like a pretty obvious 'weak point' in the structure; as such, it's always going to be likely to break there.

As you've already resigned yourself to purchasing a new replacement, I'd suggest it'd be worth doing some experiments with the broken part.
If it were mine, I'd weld up the break, and then look at adding some reinforcing straps or webs to improve the rigidity and strength of the structure.
I wouldn't worry about 'sloppy stuff' getting in the way, aluminium is easily machined or milled.

It mightn't look 'pretty', but it'd be much stronger, and you fancypants target guys don't appear to be too worried about the aesthetics of the guns anyway, going by some of the 'bubba' jobs I've seen on various stocks and grips over the years.

johal

hi sparks
i weld aluminium most days and i have both mig and tig. if you want to weld it i will do it for nothing if you get it down to me in cork. do not put "glue" on. it keep it clean or it will interfere with future welding.if you get your new stock you can keep this one as back up
regards john

meathstevie

Sparks, this might sound daft now but could you not get one made in steel instead of aluminium. I know it'll be a good bit heavier but it'll also be a hell of a lot stronger. In relation to the weight bit, do your rifles have to weigh in at a certain weight or is that a misconception I have about small bore target shooting ?

It wasn't me!

There are upper weight limits for ISSF rifles, and steel would put it well over I'd say.