N22 - Macroom to Ballyvourney (Macroom Bypass) [open to traffic]

Baldilocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346448#Comment_121346448

I'm not suggesting that legacy locations should be modified (though, if they are accident blackspots, then they should).

However a newly road should not introduce such a significant hazard. These should be designed out within reason. Justifying poor design by referring to an obscure (to most of the population) road classification is hiding behind a technicality.

Equally, suggesting everything would be ok if everybody drove in a legal manner, is not best practice... It is easy to be over the limit in most modern cars (I use cruise control alot to avoid this), people look at phones (I'm not defending this, just stating it happens), people have health issues, difficult passengers, etc., and some drive dangerously....

for a small % of the overall cost, the risk associated with the on/off slips could have been mitigated. It should be noted that accidents have a cost, both to those directly affected and the economy. I recall seeing various figures for accidents, though none from the CSO. In the event of an accident resulting in a carriageway being closed for a couple of hours, it wouldn't take long to break into 7 figures - a couple of thousand people held up...

Good Engineering Practice is to:

1) Remove the risk - not possible without removing either the drivers, or the slips

2) Reduce the risk - include design features that will allow the risk to be removed (long slip roads!)

3) Use procedures - depend on good driving.......time will tell on this.

4) Personal Protective equipment - turn all cars into Zorbs that can absorb the impacts....

Pete_Cavan

Expecting drivers to stop at STOP signs is not hiding behind a technicality. No idea what "obscure (to most of the population) road classification" you think I referred to, unless you consider National roads an obscure classification.

Stop signs are a way of removing, or at least reducing, risk. Drivers stopping and merging at an appropriate time will generally be safer than a merging lane which is a dynamic situation and plenty of drivers don't use them correctly.

Your talk of the cost of accidents equally applies if there were merging lanes. TII most likely have determined that requiring drivers to stop before joining the road is the safest in this situation, hence the design. And "a carriageway being closed for a couple of hours" wont hold up "a couple of thousand people" given the N22 at Macroom has an AADT of just under 8,500.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348479#Comment_121348479

Excellent post and it clearly highlights the point that @AugustusMinimus was making about the dangers posed by the these "Compact Grade Separated Junctions". Designing a brand new road with an expectation that drivers of varying skills and abilities (and none) will, from a standing start (zero Kph), safely join a flow of traffic moving at 100Kph, and frequently up to 125Kph, is ridiculous to say the least. And trying to dumb this down on the the basis of junctions on existing roads (the line of which can be 100/200 years old and basically follow old cow paths) is just a lot of whataboutery. And trying to justify this by saying that short slips are known to be more dangerous than having no slip lane at all so lets have no slip lane at all - is also daft, nobody is arguing for short slips - these should be provided and should be of adequate length to allow a vehicle to accelerate safely from a standing start to the average lane 1 running speed.

In general terms this 22Km stretch of road is a well executed engineering marvel, with many positive aspects which will bring huge benefits to car and truck drivers, businesses and inhabitants in the area and especially to the long suffering townsfolk of Macroom and Ballyvourney. It was long overdue and is an example of the benefits of modern infrastructure and the stupidity and damaging travesty that is Ryan and the GP's attitude to modernising roads. And it's a really enjoyable drive. That said, having driven Phase 1 and Phase 2 on a number of occasions, and having deliberately exited and rejoined at the various junctions, I think it is a crying shame that the additional money wasn't provided to construct safe deceleration/acceleration lanes at the junctions. It couldn't have added more than 1% or 2% to the budget.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349349#Comment_121349349

Going from a standing start (zero Kph) to safely joining a flow of traffic moving at 100kph is a basic requirement for anyone driving a vehicle. There are thousands of locations where a driver will have to do so, almost all of which in more dangerous circumstances than on this DC. That is not whataboutery.

And this notion that the junctions were designed like this to save costs is absolute nonsense. TII developed this road standard and junction design on the basis of what was considered appropriate, including from a safety perspective. It is a standard design and has been and will be used elsewhere.

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349560#Comment_121349560

I can only assume that the lack of a hard shoulder is the reason for slip roads then. Perhaps no hard shoulder results in slips on being more dangerous.

Certainly I cannot see how a slip off wouldn’t be warranted though.

Salvadoor

Enjoy the new road everyone. I've no interest in the ongoing monotonous sliproad/stop sign arguments. So I'm unsubscribing

peter.teahan

Google maps on the ball quicker for this last section :). I’m sure the new piece can be done in less than 14 mins though ;) New road slightly longer at 22.2km but we will live.

lordleitrim

I did Tralee to the hospital in Wilton in 95 minutes on Monday morning despite still having to drive through Ballyvorney and also meeting 2 stop/go roadwork hold ups (both very brief)

Assuming the final stretch opened shaves off another 5 minutes, can we comfortably say Tralee to N40 exit for Cork city center can now be done in 90 minutes and from Killarney in an hour or are faster (within speed limit and assuming you're not stuck behind a tractor at Ovens!) journey times anticipated?

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348048#Comment_121348048

Too many drivers seem afraid of the full potential of their vehicle's engine. There's nothing worse or more dangerous than a driver gently/slowly accelerating along after pulling into a traffic lane. It should be pedal to the metal for a few moments to get the vehicle up to the same speed as the other traffic you are joining in as short a time as possible.

peter.teahan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350243#Comment_121350243

Google maps can estimate this fairly accurately at any given time

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340744#Comment_121340744

As would I and many others.

That said, there are times when you are being overtaken yourself and do not have that option. It's happened to me on several occasions, on other roads, not the N22.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339685#Comment_121339685

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but even within Ireland Limerick is not a major city - nor is Cork for that matter. Within Ireland, I'd reserve the term for Dublin and Belfast, while I'd call Cork an important regional city.

Limerick is an important small city though, I get that, similar to Galway and Derry, and more so than Waterford.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121352487#Comment_121352487

I've just completed a return trip Cork - Clifden - Cork

The Galway-Clifden section is acceptable all things considered, and the Limerick-Galway section is excellent. However, the Cork-Limerick section is a total shambles and should be an embarrassment to our political class and TII.

If memory serves me right the old N18 was not a bad road in comparison to the N20, so some seriously confused priorities seem to be at play when it comes to road upgrades, particularly when bypasses for Castlemartyr and Killagh on the N25 are about 30 years overdue.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121352712#Comment_121352712

I agree, I've driven those roads and your point is a good one.

The best thing to do would be to run a new road from Limerick to the M8 at Mitchelstown, of Motorway standard. I know that there is pressure to build a new motorway the whole way from Limerick to Cork parallel to the N20. I can see the attraction to many, and particularly to whoever gets the contract to build 100 km of road rather than 65 km but in any case a north ring around Cork will be needed sooner rather than later whichever.

The point I was disputing was someone calling Limerick a "major city" when it's nothing of the sort, it's a small city although given Ireland's small population and low population density, it has its importance in Irish terms, and of course it is an important regional centre.

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353079#Comment_121353079

I can’t think of another post here I’d agree less with.

The Limerick to Mitchelstown Road has been shot down time and time again on here. It makes no sense.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353098#Comment_121353098

Why so? Most of it is across flat countryside, the last slightly more difficult section is nothing compared to the Alps or the Pyrenees.

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353129#Comment_121353129

It’s not flat countryside. The section between Limerick and Mitchelstown is quite hilly especially north of Mitchelstown.

The route is much longer than the proposed M20. It doesn’t solve the problem of providing a better road on the present N20 corridor. Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville will still need to be bypassed. It will dump even more traffic on an already over trafficked Dunkettle Interchange. And that’s only a few of the reasons repeated on here.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353079#Comment_121353079

All the usual errors in your post:

The aim isn't to spend the least amount of money possible and do it on the cheap, the idea is to do it right.

A lot of traffic isn't going the whole way from Limerick-Cork, it is going to Mallow or other towns along the way.

Mallow-Cork has so much traffic that it needs to be dualled anyway.

Even if the motorway went via Michelstown, the road from Croom-Mallow would have to be replaced by a single carriageway road anyway as it is not even good enough to be a local road never mind the N20.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353159#Comment_121353159

I wonder if you have ever driven it? From Limerick to the Galtees, the land is as flat as a pancake, and Galteemore rises pretty much straight up from the plain. You then pass through a valley between Galteemore and the hills to the west, and finally come down a few miles of slope to the north of Mitchellstown. There is nothing particularly difficult there engineering wise, although the Greens will object enormously. As they will with whichever route is chosen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353239#Comment_121353239

Of course we want to do it right, which is precisely why I think a new road as explained already is the way to go; considering the route primarily as a commercial corridor.

Much if not most of the traffic feeding into Cork will be travelling through the tunnel in any case, particularly all the traffic to the continent, as well as much of the more local traffic - more of Cork is south of the Lee than to the north, so a section of ring-road will be needed to bring this around the city. My guess is that it will run eastwards rather than to the west. Could be wrong though.

Your points about the N20 are valid to a fair degree, although removing all the current long distance traffic and everything going to the port would relieve stress on the route in the short to medium term. A proper study would need to be carried out - but AFAICS the main pressure for a motorway on this route is much the same as the pressure to build a motorway south of Bray into Co Wicklow - which was mostly about opening up the area for the suburban development that happened all the way down to Wicklow once the motorway was in place. If a motorway is run up alongside the N20, you can expect to see the same happen there, much more than is already the case.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348738#Comment_121348738

We tried that. It didn't work very well.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353159#Comment_121353159

Interestingly, while travelling Cork bound, from Jct2 on the N18 Google Maps attempted to route me to Cork via the Mitchelstown (M7, N24, R513, M8) route

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353345#Comment_121353345

A proper study would need to be carried out

Wait 'till I tell you, it already has. It considered your cunning plan and dismissed it.

cantalach

I had to double check just now what thread I was in…shouldn’t all the above be in the N/M20 thread?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353747#Comment_121353747

Link please.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356166#Comment_121356166

Way off topic here. The route was whittled down from 18 options to 8 in phase 1 of the N/M20 Cork to Limerick Project on then and then to 1 preferred option in phase 2. Your proposal was referred to as "Road-Based Scenario B (new route in R513 corridor from M8 at Mitchelstown to Ballysimon)"

Everything you need is here:

https://corklimerick.ie/introduction/

This with a lot of other ideas of varying quality and merit was extensively discussed in the M20 thread.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055372963/m20-cork-to-limerick-preferred-route-chosen-in-design-phase-3

chooseusername

At the risk of derailing the thread, there was probably good reason why the railway back in the day never went Fermoy/Mitchelstown to Limerick/Limerick junction;

old railway.jpg

Hibernicis

The Mitchelstown and Fermoy Railway Company had planned a continuation from Mitchelstown to Cahir on the Waterford & Limerick railway however it was never built.

BagofWeed

45 minutes tonight from the N72 part of the Killarney bypass to the start of the Ballincollig bypass. Had nobody ahead of me so full on the speed limit. Really nice drive. Was on my driveway in a hour. Only left Cork about half eight and had an hours walk around the centre so it's within a short visit driving range from Cork. Excellent road, real smooth journey.