Are we suitable for a dog / puppy?

ncmc

peasant wrote: »

Protection from predators is one of the jobs the guardian does...but the main one would be the keep the pen clean and/or "herd" the pups and keep them out of mischief, depending on their age and agility.

Anyway ...it is just not right to leave young pup alone all day. They are to young, to inexperienced and could get into all sorts of trouble.

The only bowl of water, accidentally and clumsily spilled first thing in the morning on a hot day, curtains not drawn, sun baking the room ...that alone could be enough to let you arrive home to one dead puppy.

I think you are focusing on the grimmest possible scenario, what you have described are freak accidents and as Noopti said, if yo are careful, you can avoid the majority of accidents. However a freak accident could occur if you were at home all day and popped to the shop for 5 mins, you can't be with an animal every second of every day. Honestly, how many cases have you heard of either of these things happening in this country?

peasant

Noopti wrote: »

Look, we are never going to agree on this. All I will say is that I have had plenty of dogs, and they never had any problems even when they were left alone as puppies during work hours. I am just going by my own personal experience.

No, we are not going to agree on this and I strongly believe that the amount of "problem dogs" out there speaks for itself.

Just because you never saw any problems with your dogs, doesn't mean they never had any. How would you know anyway ...you weren't there half the time...

And even if you really should have been so lucky to have had perfectly adjusted and happy dogs, the statistics speak against taking your example as the rule.

ncmc

peasant wrote: »

No, we are not going to agree on this and I strongly believe that the amount of "problem dogs" out there speaks for itself.

Just because you never saw any problems with your dogs, doesn't mean they never had any. How would you know anyway ...you weren't there half the time...

And even if you really should have been so lucky to have had perfectly adjusted and happy dogs, the statistics speak against taking your example as the rule.

That's a bit below the belt peasant...

Are you really saying that you believe all the problem dogs out there are that way because they were left alone during the day by caring owners?

Do you not think that the majority of the problem dogs are that way because:
A: They were abused by an owner
B: They get no attention whatsoever, day or night
C: Their basic needs are not tended to or
(and this is personally what I believe) Their owners are just to lazy to actually go to the bother of training them at all?

Noopti

I was with them more then not with them.
How would they have serious problems I wouldn't notice? If that is the case, how do you know your dogs haven't got problems you can't see even if you give them 24/7 attention!?

I am figuring that they didn't have problems because:
1. They were very obedient and well trained
2. They got on with anybody, even if they were strangers
3. They weren't overly submissive/afraid nor agressive/dominant
4. They were sociable with other dogs
5. They lived to good old ages

Maybe I should engage a dog psychologist next time though, just in case there is something hidden in the depths of the dogs minds even though they would seem to be great, happy dogs to any normal individual. :rolleyes:

the statistics speak

What statistics are those?

az2wp0sye65487

ncmc wrote: »

That's a bit below the belt peasant...

Are you really saying that you believe all the problem dogs out there are that way because they were left alone during the day by caring owners?

Do you not think that the majority of the problem dogs are that way because:
A: They were abused by an owner
B: They get no attention whatsoever, day or night
C: Their basic needs are not tended to or
(and this is personally what I believe) Their owners are just to lazy to actually go to the bother of training them at all?

I have to say I agree with that.

Also, my 2 dogs which are alone all day definitly get on well with each other, and would be lost without each other. So it does make a difference whether a dog is left completly alone all day, or has a companion. Sure even when we're at home with them our 2 just go off together and play / do their own thing! Sometimes they don't even want to know us!

peasant

ncmc wrote: »

Are you really saying that you believe all the problem dogs out there are that way because they were left alone during the day by caring owners?

That could be one reason, yes

Do you not think that the majority of the problem dogs are that way because:
A: They were abused by an owner
B: They get no attention whatsoever, day or night
C: Their basic needs are not tended to or
(and this is personally what I believe) Their owners are just to lazy to actually go to the bother of training them at all?

The need for leadership and company is a basic need

By being there for your dog, I don't necessarily mean that you have to be on top of it/engaged with it every second of the day ...just be there if and when it needs you and leave it alone when it doesn't.

I just think that it is wrong to assume that your dog doesn't need you anyway when you're not there.

Noopti wrote: »

I was with them more then not with them.
How would they have serious problems I wouldn't notice? If that is the case, how do you know your dogs haven't got problems you can't see even if you give them 24/7 attention!?

I am figuring that they didn't have problems because:
1. They were very obedient and well trained
2. They got on with anybody, even if they were strangers
3. They weren't overly submissive/afraid nor agressive/dominant
4. They were sociable with other dogs
5. They lived to good old ages

So they were fine when you were around. Are you absolutely sure that was also the case when you weren't ?

What statistics are those?

Umpteen threads on this forum about "problem dogs", more threads on other forums about dogs that cause problems to other people, mainly through barking and lastly, the gruesome statistic of 14.000 unwanted dogs killed in our pounds in 2006.

Now I'm not saying that all of those 14.000 were killed as a direct or indirect result of having been left alone for too long, but I bet you that it was more than one ...and even one is one too many.


The reason why I bring this topic up again and again is simple:

Many existing and potential dog owners approach this issue from the wrong point of view, namely their own.

How many posts have you seen in this thread stating "I know it's not ideal but ..."

Well ...why the heck should it be less than ideal? For the dog I mean ...

Dogs have basic needs. Company and social interaction is one of them. And not just for a few hours in the evenings / at weekends, but every day, all day.

Why knowingly deprive them of those needs? Just because you want one? Because you think you have the right to dog ownership now that your garden is big enough?


Anyway ...I've said my piece. I don't expect many will agree with me, but the evening is too nice to be debating it ad nauseam, so I'll go now and play with the dogs instead.

cowzerp

Peasant, i know you mean well but what do you say to do with all the dogs that people own that work 9-5? do you suggest we just let them loose or get them put to sleep, stop saving dogs from been put to sleep?

i wish i could have a go on your high horse so i could see how everyone else lives, my 2 dogs are very happy and when im in work(neccesity) they have each other to keep company, your very judgemental and are in a minority but keep stating how your way is the only right way,

also-do you have a life? surely your dogs are without human contact at some time..i'd suggest you stop putting people off rescuing dogs just because they cant do it your way-otherwise there will be no dogs left as they will be all put down bar a few people wealthy enough to go without work.
get a reality check, life is not ideal.

peasant

cowzerp wrote: »

Peasant, i know you mean well but what do you say to do with all the dogs that people own that work 9-5? do you suggest we just let them loose or get them put to sleep, stop saving dogs from been put to sleep?

i wish i could have a go on your high horse so i could see how everyone else lives, my 2 dogs are very happy and when im in work(neccesity) they have each other to keep company, your very judgemental and are in a minority but keep stating how your way is the only right way,

also-do you have a life? surely your dogs are without human contact at some time..i'd suggest you stop putting people off rescuing dogs just because they cant do it your way-otherwise there will be no dogs left as they will be all put down bar a few people wealthy enough to go without work.
get a reality check, life is not ideal.

You're throwing several issues all into the one pot.

First off, I'm allergic to horses and I'm not great with heights either
Secondly "my" dogs aren't really mine, more so my wife's who is at home all day ...and that is all you or anyone needs to know about my private life.

Nowhere have I stated that my way is the right way ...it's not about me or what I do or don't do ...it's about dogs and what they need from us.

Having dogs and than having to change your life and having to leave them alone for long periods is one thing ...not having the time for one and still getting a dog regardless is quite another.

As for rescueing dogs (a good and admirable deed by itself) ...ask yourself why there are so many dogs to be rescued in the first place ...because so many people got a dog because they "wanted" one without thoroughly considering its needs and the commitment involved in fulfilling them ...and when reality hit they just threw it away for other people to pick up the pieces.

As for having two dogs, that's a 50/50 bet. Either it works out as hoped for or you're suddenly faced with two problem dogs instead of one, could go either way.

Our lifes may not be ideal ...well tough ...live with it ...but don't inflict it on a defensless creature that depends on you.

cowzerp

peasant wrote: »

Our lifes may not be ideal ...well tough ...live with it ...but don't inflict it on a defensless creature that depends on you.

O'k-they should all be put down in favour of been left alone for a few hours each day-your just making everyone else out to be cruel even though your not the 1 living 24/7 with the dogs ,and not giving any reasonable explanation of what to do with the thousands of dogs that live like this.

my dogs are very happy and just because you say otherwise does not mean there not, for all you know my dogs could be happier than yours, but you wont accept that either way.

peasant

cowzerp wrote: »

O'k-they should all be put down

Och, don't get silly now. Where did I say dogs should be put down?

What triggered this discussion was the question: should we get a puppy/dog even though we're not at home all day?

And in my opinion the answer to that question is "no" for all the reasons outlined.

my dogs are very happy and just because you say otherwise does not mean there not, for all you know my dogs could be happier than yours, but you wont accept that either way.

So ...did your dogs tell you that they're happy or did they write you a letter? Or is it just your impression going on how they behave when they're with you?

All dogs are "happy" when their people are around, that's my whole point. But what are they when you're not there? You'll never know.

GA361

Joshua Strong Tailgate wrote: »

Myself and my better half have 2 dogs that are left at home alone all day. This wasn't always the case, there was originally sombody at home every day who looked after them and they kept each other company. But due to reasons that I won't be going into the dogs are still there but the person isn't.

We both work 9-5 jobs and it does feel unfair keeping them on their own all day. If I was in this position without any pets I doubt I'd get one unless it could be looked after properly.

We do try to pay them a lot of attention in the evenings/weekends and bring them for plenty of walks and runs, but it's still not fair to keep them locked up all day. Unfortunatly we have no choice.

Also, if you decide to rescue a dog, I know from experience that the more common breeds / medium sized and slightly older dogs are overlooked for the most part. People want a pup, and they either want a really small or a really big dog. This means that the other poor aul medium sized, not so young, cross breeds are left behind.

I'd recommend getting one of those if rescuing.

I agree 100 percent.
Why not get two old-timers to keep each other company?

az2wp0sye65487

GA361 wrote: »

I agree 100 percent.
Why not get two old-timers to keep each other company?

Good to see I'm not alone in my views GA!!

Also, to Peasant: What do you suggest all us 'daytime-abandonners' do with our dogs?

Whats done is done, whether we should have dogs or not is irrelevant, the reality is that we do have them.... so what should we do now? How do we solve this problem? Bearing in mind that we can't give up work and be at home all day.

Noopti

So ...did your dogs tell you that they're happy or did they write you a letter? Or is it just your impression going on how they behave when they're with you?

Equally, do YOUR dogs tell you they are so happy to have someone around all day? No, then don't, so don't get silly. You have no idea how happy other peoples dogs are, and we have no idea how happy your dogs are.

And yes, the only impression you can get from a dogs behavior is, shock horror, how they behave when you are there. Any caring owner will be able to tell how their dog is feeling. A dog doesn't get schizophrenia, if a dog has psychological issue when you are not at home, it will still be there when you are. Unless there is some other way to judge a dogs behavior?? Some sort of written exam?

And internet posts are not statistics. So until you can give me solid statistics on the amount of dogs that have problems, and the correlation between that and them being left alone during workdays, I'm sorry, but I will continue to hold the sensible line and go by my own experience which tells me that it is not an issue once they are cared for properly when the owners are there, and given the option of comfort, warmth and entertainment when the owner isn't.

peasant

Noopti wrote: »

A dog doesn't get schizophrenia, if a dog has psychological issue when you are not at home, it will still be there when you are.

That actually is a very important point !

No, dogs do not get schizophrenia, nor do they carry a grudge, nor do they "love" you.

All those are human "units" of measurement to judge and describe human behaviour.

A dog is a dog and lives in the here and now, the very moment. It has very limited abilities of forward planning and also very limited capabilities of rearward projection.

A dog may very well feel lonely, abandoned, desparate while you're gone ...but the minute you come in through the door, that's forgotten. You're here now, everything is ok.

Similarly, every new separation can be a new descent into agony. I doesn't matter that the dog had the greatest of times with you last night, running, swimming, playing frisbee ...now you're gone and it feels abandoned.

So by judging the dog from when you interact with it you can NOT conclude that it acts/feels the same way when you're not there.

The only mitigating factor (what prevents your dog from howling in separation anxiety all day long) is routine. It will learn over time, that you come back. Some dogs learn to cope with this fairly well, others don't. The longer the period of your absence, the higher the chance that the dog will grow anxious at some stage.

But unless the dog leaves clear signs of its anxiety (chewed furniture, a mess on the floor, neighbours annoyed by whining and barking) you will never know, because as soon as you step through the door, its world is right again and it will behave "normally".

Unlike a human, it will not sit in the corner and sulk and "punish" you for putting it through this agony, no ...it will seize the moment and look for your attention and company.

You on the other hand will never know what happened to your dog / what it was feeling while you were gone.

peasant

Joshua Strong Tailgate wrote: »

Also, to Peasant: What do you suggest all us 'daytime-abandonners' do with our dogs?

Whats done is done, whether we should have dogs or not is irrelevant, the reality is that we do have them.... so what should we do now? How do we solve this problem? Bearing in mind that we can't give up work and be at home all day.

As you say ...what's done is done.

All you can do is cope with it the best you and your dog(s) can.

That's not the point though ...the question was: Should we get a dog when we're not there? And my answer is no, you shouldn't.

Plek Trum

Gosh, this place has been busy since I posted yesterday!
Many thanks to all of you for your postings and insightful debate, it was interesting and very informative to see both sides of the argument and for now we are not going to go ahead just at the moment.

We are finding it hard to seperate our decision completely from being a selfish one (we would hope for a young pup or dog, which would require stimulation and company ..at least intitially, rather than an old dog) and a charitable one. We've taken all advice and opinions on board, thanks for your input.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Congratulation to the brigade who feel nobody who works should have a dog. There's another pup unhomed. What a load of nonsense about leaving a dog during the day. We have always had a dog and both of us work. The dog gets some time before we leave in the morning and many hours of companionship, walks, and play in the evenings. As long as the dog is assured that you will return, there is no problem.
Every time someone comes on here asking about getting a dog the bleeding hearts dive in to prevent them. I'm disgusted!:mad:

Glowing

I'm of the opinion that a dog is probably better off in a household with working owners than in a rescue/shelter - which is why I'm always pushing the older, rescue dog pairs as a solution.

I don't think ALL situations are suitable however, obviously leaving a dog from 7.30 until 6pm alone is not acceptable, and I'm sure you'd have to agree with me there Srameen. But if you're not working ALL day, and have time to walk the dog in the morning, and evenings, won't risk being stuck at work late, and could hire a dog walker to break up the day for the dog, then go for it.

I don't think it's suitable to have a young pup at home alone for long periods however. That's just not fair.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I agree with most of what you say. We would be very aware of time when away from the house and often rush back to give the dog some time. I'd draw the line at hiring a dog walker during the day. Most people around the country don't have such services available and the dog get a good miles walking with us every evening along with free roam of a half acre garden.
I just gauls me to see contributors here discouraging dog ownership when so many dogs need homing. If they care enough to ask then I think most people will be responsible. Let's cut out the excuses for not having a dog and push the positives for both dog and owner.

MsFifers

But Srameen would you not agree that the reason there are so many dogs for rehoming is that people get puppies without fully thinking through the consequences and really understanding the amount of care and attention a dog needs?

I don't think its fair to criticise posters for advising a person from getting a young dog when they won't be around very much during the day.

I think its all for the good. Maybe if the O.P.s circumstances change one day they will be able to provide a good home to a young dog. At least now they have had a chance to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

az2wp0sye65487

I agree Srameen, and speaking from my own personal experience once a dog is in a routine there is no problem with going to work and leaving them for a while. On weekdays when I have a day off and am at home the dogs actually seem confused at what I am doing there. They know their weekday routine and they know their weekend routine, and their weekday routine consists mostly of sleeping! During the week, if I'm at home and get up early and want to bring them for a walk; they hardly want to know, all they want to do is go back to bed! - It's their routine!

Nothing wrong with leaving them once you come back when they are expecting you to.

az2wp0sye65487

MsFifers wrote: »

But Srameen would you not agree that the reason there are so many dogs for rehoming is that people get puppies without fully thinking through the consequences and really understanding the amount of care and attention a dog needs?

I don't think its fair to criticise posters for advising a person from getting a young dog when they won't be around very much during the day.

I think its all for the good. Maybe if the O.P.s circumstances change one day they will be able to provide a good home to a young dog. At least now they have had a chance to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

Thats not the only reason... Another major factor has to be neutering, or lack of it.

Ordinary dog owners (regardless of whether they are home during the day or not) can sometimes end up with a litter of pups that they didn't expect or particularly want. That has to be another reason why there are so many pups in shelters/pounds - I think that is a more reasonable explanation.

While I don't disagree with you completly MsFifers, have to disagree that what you said is the only reason, or even the main one.

peasant

Lorenzo Nice Vehemence wrote: »

Congratulation to the brigade who feel nobody who works should have a dog. There's another pup unhomed. What a load of nonsense about leaving a dog during the day.

Polemics aren't going to help either.

Of course you can work and have a dog, you just can't be gone all day and expect that to have no ill effect on the dog.

Whatever about re-homing an older dog that is used to being alone, re-homing a pup into an empty house just isn't a good idea for either party.

For the dog, there wouldn't be any great fundamental difference between being locked into a kennel in a shelter for the best part of the day or being locked into/outside an empty house.

As I've said before, dogs live in the here and now. They can't think forward and they certainly can't reflect back on previous times.

While the rescuer may feel all warm and fuzzy inside about having rescued this poor dog, don't expect the dog to feel the same.

If it is going to develop seperation anxiety / behavioural problems because its unattended for too long its going to do so regardless of the fact that it could have been much worse off or even dead.

It very much depends on the individual dog, how well it will cope with being left alone for long periods.

If you can rescue a dog that has that ability ...great for you and the dog.
But rescueing just any dog ...or worse, a pup that definetly needs constant attention ... doesn't help anyone in the long run.

The owner will get frustrated by an unmanageable "problem dog" and the dog just suffers.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

MsFifers wrote: »

But Srameen would you not agree that the reason there are so many dogs for rehoming is that people get puppies without fully thinking through the consequences and really understanding the amount of care and attention a dog needs?

I don't think its fair to criticise posters for advising a person from getting a young dog when they won't be around very much during the day.

I think its all for the good. Maybe if the O.P.s circumstances change one day they will be able to provide a good home to a young dog. At least now they have had a chance to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

No I can't agree that the shelters are stuffed with dogs because people can't cope with them. You seem to forget about all the unwanted litters either abandoned or given to people who (unlike thos asking here) haven't considered getting a dog. Unwanted litters is the biggest single resaon for dogs in shelters (fact by the way!) followed by incapitated or deceased owners. Don't put it all down to people getting dogs where their circunstance don't allow it to work.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Joshua Strong Tailgate wrote: »

I agree Srameen, and speaking from my own personal experience once a dog is in a routine there is no problem with going to work and leaving them for a while. On weekdays when I have a day off and am at home the dogs actually seem confused at what I am doing there. They know their weekday routine and they know their weekend routine, and their weekday routine consists mostly of sleeping! During the week, if I'm at home and get up early and want to bring them for a walk; they hardly want to know, all they want to do is go back to bed! - It's their routine!

Nothing wrong with leaving them once you come back when they are expecting you to.

Very well put. Why I'm on holidays the dog sleeps most of the day.

I think too many people think they know what's best for a dog when they actually don't. Having seen dogs in many homes where both adults work I can safely say that anybody who is willing to get a routine going and stick to it with plenty of walks and play, can certainly have a dog.

glineli

Lorenzo Nice Vehemence wrote: »

Congratulation to the brigade who feel nobody who works should have a dog. There's another pup unhomed. What a load of nonsense about leaving a dog during the day. We have always had a dog and both of us work. The dog gets some time before we leave in the morning and many hours of companionship, walks, and play in the evenings. As long as the dog is assured that you will return, there is no problem.
Every time someone comes on here asking about getting a dog the bleeding hearts dive in to prevent them. I'm disgusted!:mad:

Some common sense at last. I dont see my wife all day due to work, never mind my dog!!!

I was off sick for a few weeks after a knee operation a while back, the dog was out the back all day, happy as larry, sleeping for 2 hours, get up for some food, go back to sleep. around 4.30ish he was up and waiting for my wife to get home from work. He has a routinue now and is happy with it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

peasant wrote: »

Polemics aren't going to help either.


As I've said before, dogs live in the here and now. They can't think forward and they certainly can't reflect back on previous times.

A) When did expressing an opinon classify as a polemic?

You are certainly very wrong on the assertion that dogs can neither think forward or reflect (as you put it) on the past. You seem to be unware of most scientific studies here. As someone who works with animals I can tell you that many animal s,and particularly dogs, can infact think forward. In the wild dogs remaining at the lair are accutely aware that they are not abandonded but that the pact leader will return (and indeed in most cases they can anticpate the time at which the pack returns). As a result such dogs relax and spend most of the day sleeping if not on baby sitting duty. Likewise dogs by the very vertue that allows them to be trained so well can be aware of things from the past.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

glineli wrote: »

Some common sense at last. I dont see my wife all day due to work, never mind my dog!!!

I was off sick for a few weeks after a knee operation a while back, the dog was out the back all day, happy as larry, sleeping for 2 hours, get up for some food, go back to sleep. around 4.30ish he was up and waiting for my wife to get home from work. He has a routinue now and is happy with it.

QED. Anybody who gives a damn can have a dog!:p

az2wp0sye65487

slightly off topic, but can dogs dream??? you do see them kicking and twitching in their sleep, sometimes barking and crying..... if so, isn't that evidance of forward thinking or of accessing memories?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Joshua Strong Tailgate wrote: »

slightly off topic, but can dogs dream??? you do see them kicking and twitching in their sleep, sometimes barking and crying..... if so, isn't that evidance of forward thinking or of accessing memories?

Yes Joshua Strong Tailgate, they certainly do dream. Brainwave research has proven it.