ATH5: A Sloberknocker with words!

Bounty Hunter

ATH1 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055176157
ATH2 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055187277
ATH3 - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54765837#post54765837
ATH4 - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236240

Its been a while since ive done one of these as ive been busy but here we go again. Sure most of you know how it goes by now but for any new posters / combatants (which are always welcome) here is a rundown of what ATH is and how it works
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Around The Horn(ATH) is an american show on ESPN where a number of panelists/experts make arguments an a certain topic. The host awards points for each response depending on how well argued their point is, not neccesarily if he agrees with their point (although that helps) but how well they back up their argument. Obviously the winner is the person with the highest number of points at the end of the show. This format should work quite well here if anyone is interested, afterall there are a number of people here where many like to think of themselves as experts on all things wrestling related, so this is a chance to prove it.

The first of 5 topics will be posted on tommorow evening (sunday) and you will have two days before round two (so four days now to decide on participation and enter your first answer). If you need info on the rules check the above linkes to the previous threads, but here is a brief rundown of them:

I post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within 48hrs (before the next round begins), take care while making your responses however as other contestants can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement once, although you can counter as many different peoples arguements as much as you want (but only once each). if someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them plus someone else might continue to question it in your place.

*You can use the same answer as a previous poster if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

each poster is marked out of 20 each round for a total of five rounds. If you miss a round (it happens) you can still submit an answer to that rounds question however because you missed the deadline in between rounds your late answer will only be marked out of 10.

Former Champs are Vince135792003, Rosie1977, Fozzy & Charlie Mchugh, will we have a two time champ or will a new contender emerge. Former guest host Danger Dave vowed to be the next champ...can you stop him!

Machismo Fan

Due to my poor enough performance last time, I have to make up for it this time.

Bounty Hunter

Good stuff Machismo.

BTW as per usual if anyone would like to PM me a question they would like asked/debated id be more than welcome to ask them and of course give cedited to the poster who contributed the question. Obviously if you are activley competing I wont be asking something you have suggested.

john concannon

I'm in but I will probably finish last due to my sh1te luck as of late.

Bubs101

I'll try and stick with this after I lost on the last round last time having forgot to post an answer but it's during exams

Danger_Dave

Count me in ! . Time to win this damn thing .

Bounty Hunter

Okay itl be interesting to see who takes part this time round and if any former champions return including will Fozzy defend his title... so here we go with a nice simple start
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ATH:Round 1
Q.What would you do with Jeff Hardy upon his return to TV from suspension? and why would this in your opinion be the right thing to do with him?

Machismo Fan

Jeff should return into a feud with Y2J, its natural progression as Y2J took the IC belt before Hardy left. Y2J is a good reliable worker for Hardy to come back against and regain some of that confidence and momentum that he had in January. That was the peak in Hardy's career so far.

I think the WWE Draft should be a factor in WWE this year. They should really shake things up. Hardy should then move to SD! with Kennedy, Umaga and Punk. Begin working with Punk with the MITB shot on the line and then move onto working with MVP as MVP has very little to do after Matt Hardy.

A move to SD! will give Hardy something new to do and bring an element of freshness to the WWE. Smackdown! has very little main event depth and their ratings have never lower, Hardy could bring in more fans to Smackdown! and give something new to the brand. A program with Edge wouldn't go astray either. Jeff Hardy could be the next mega-star he just has to be given the right people and has to get his act together.

Bubs101

ATH:Round 1
Q.What would you do with Jeff Hardy upon his return to TV from suspension? and why would this in your opinion be the right thing to do with him?

Well, for one, I don't think the 60 day suspension is enough for someone who only has one warning left.They should make an example of him and slow his momentum. I think the momentum he had before he left should be used to propel someone else's push and considering Raw has too many faces ATM, HHH, Cena,HBK, Jericho and now even Kennedy has been turned, it should be a heel who gets the boost and that man is Regal.

I would delay Hardy's return until after Judgement day and the Regal Kennedy feud has ended with a Regal win. The next Raw have Hardy come back and demand his rematch with Y2J before Regal comes out and does his bit about being the most powerful man on Raw and nobody demands anything from him without begging when a brawl breaks out.

Have them have a usual Hardy programme before he got the massive push. Hardy has the best in the matches but Regal always gets the win by cheating somehow, effectively leading up to a PPV where if Hardy wins he gets an IC title shot and if not, Regal kicks him to Smackdown, but with some kind of enforcer to make sure Regal can't cheat, say Foley or Dreamer or some other trusted veteran. The programme builds up to an expected Hardy victory but Regal makes him tap, extending Regal's push and quashing Hardy's, sending a strong message to other's like Kennedy and Morrison who could be in his position if they broke the rules. There are plenty of big guys for Hardy to feud with on Smackdown to build him back up in a short time so there would be no long term harm to him

john concannon

I would put him in a feud with Randy Orton to put Randy over in a short feud because you can't reward wrongdoing.
It is interesting because they didn't say that he was suspended for breaking the wellness policy.
It would have to be serious because it kept him out of Wrestlemania and almost certainly halted any main event spot by giving the MITB to CM Punk.

After this I would put him back in Intercontinental Title contention.
I personally don't rate Jeff Hardy as a top performer but with the reactions he gets at every event you can hardly job him out to Carlito.

Machismo Fan

john concannon wrote: »

I would put him in a feud with Randy Orton to put Randy over in a short feud because you can't reward wrongdoing.

Its interesting you choose Orton as he really received the ultimate reward after all his wrong doing.

john concannon

In fairness he has been grand for the last year and a bit,thank god.
But Jeff has been a prick for the last two years without stop.

If you would job him out anyone else who would it be?

Machismo Fan

Probably Umaga. He could do with a few big wins.

john concannon

You would have to build Umaga up first by feeding him people like Cody Rhodes and make him a monster heel.You couldn't just give Umaga such a big win and have it lead up to a downfall.It would have to be a progressive build-up.

Machismo Fan

I believe progressive build and Umaga were thrown out a long time ago. Anytime Umaga was really gathering momentum they stopped him dead in his tracks with big defeats. He deserves better as he was one of the stand out performers of '07 despite losing all important matches.

john concannon

I agree that Umaga was a stand-out but crowd reactions have not gone well for him.In other for him to get a heel or face reaction you have to give him a few wins and then gradually put him in title contention.

Bounty Hunter

alright guys this isnt the Umaga thread

Machismo Fan

Yes but my point was whenever he was gathering momentum, he was jobbed out. To Cena, Lashley, HHH and Batista. Simple crush matches aren't going to do it anymore, he needs to start winning in big matches against big people and if you are going to punish Hardy(which I wouldn't as that might make him worse) at least help someone new get over in a big feud.

john concannon

Okay I'm going out. Nows your chance Machismo Fan .

Bounty Hunter

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

*you can only counter an arguement once, although you can counter as many different peoples arguements as much as you want (but only once each). if someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them plus someone else might continue to question it in your place.

not neccesarily countering each others arguements but come on guys this is a debate styled competition/game thread and I made the above rule so that the thread wouldent get sidetracked by personal arguements/discussions so lets save that for PMs

Machismo Fan

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

alright guys this isnt the Umaga thread

Just something to do between topics;)

Danger_Dave

ATH:Round 1
Q.What would you do with Jeff Hardy upon his return to TV from suspension? and why would this in your opinion be the right thing to do with him?

First off i would push him, we've seen people break the wellness program and still get pushed, also whats good for Jeff is good for the WWE.

I would get Jeff into a feud with Randy Orton after judgment day , he would lose to HHH. The next night on Raw, randy orton comes down to cut a promo complaining about HHH and how he got screwed the night before. Jeff hardy music hits !. He comes out tells orton he wants him in the ring tonight, He explains to orton that he's sick of him talking about it being the "Age of Orton" even though he lost is title and failed to regain the title. They have single but it ends with them both getting counted out. It marks the start of a run worth 2 ppv's. Orton win first dirty, and Jeff wins the second ppv match clean.

After this i would have him feud with CM punk for the Money in the Bank Title shot. The night after he beats Randy Orton. Jeff tells cm punk that if he the next big thing he should be willing to fight Jeff for his number 1 contender shot. jeff tells punk to pick any kind of match. CM punk picks a ladder match at the next ppv which would be the Great American bash. Jeff Hardy wins leads to a title push at Summerslam.

Muff_Daddy

Draft Jeff to SD!, where he can fued with Edge. There has never been an actual one-on-one fued between the two, despite the history the've had - all the TLC'S, Jeff putting Edge out of MITB, the way Edge treated Matt etc.

The promo's would be great, I'd imagine Edge would take shots at Jeff's house burning down, which would give him unreal heat, and make the whole thing more personal. Jeff has shown improvment on the mic just before his suspension, as his promo's with Orton showed, and if he carries on his improvments, you could see the fued of the year. The most over face in the company against the most over heel.

Many of the tag-team matches the've had have been classics, and both are more than capable of putting on good to great matches. They have styles that work well together, they've worked together for nearly 2 decades. There would be no end to the type of gimmick matches they culd have.

After the fued, Jeff could then challenge for the WHC, and I believe there is more chance for Jeff to get a ME spot on SD! then the more star studded Raw. He could go up against Taker at WM - a repeat of their 2002 ladder match, where they proved they could work together.


Also, to the people who say "he should job out to punish him more".....he has been suspended for 60 days, THAT is his punishment for his actions. There is no point in punishing him further. Draw a line under the situation, and give him his 3rd and final chance.

Cactus Col

ATH:Round 1
Q.What would you do with Jeff Hardy upon his return to TV from suspension? and why would this in your opinion be the right thing to do with him?

Jeff Hardy has been punished. He does not need to be punished any more. However, he does need to show he can be trusted again. He had great momentum going when he got suspended, and when he returns he will still be hugely over with the fans. I would use this to my advantage by immediately putting him in the mix for the Intercontinental Championship.

First I would start with a classic: Multiple Challengers: have Santino Marella come out during raw, to announce his decision to challenge for the Intercontinental Title, but then, out comes Bob "Hardcore" Holly to put his name in the hat. Y2J (now moving well into heel territory) comes out to respond to the challenges, informing nobody deserves a title match against him, when all of a sudden Jeff Hardy comes out from the audience, twist of fate, brawl. Obviously this would lead into a series of matches between the 4 men, with Marella playing the cowardly heel, Holly being a workhorse, Y2J being the cocky bastard, and Jeff being the daredevil.

Jeff Hardy would eventually hold the title, winning it in a triple threat ladder match between Y2J, Holly, and Hardy. He would then go on to defend it against both Jericho and Holly, but also Carlito, and maybe umaga.

In my opinion while Jeff has been punished, he also has to show that the company can put their faith in him again. By being involved in the hunt for the IC championship he can show his professionalism while also helping to re-establish the IC title. Also Santino would get time in the ring with three veterans and would hopefully learn a move or two.

Bounty Hunter

good few hours now till the 2nd round so time if any else wants to get in on this version of ATH or counter previous arguements although this round had a fairly straight forward question.

Fozzy

I won't be taking part this time, I've got a project due this week and I'm trying to limit my distractions

Bounty Hunter

Current Leaderboard
Muff Daddy (18)
Bubs101 (17)
Danger Dave (17)
Cactus Col (17)
Machismo Fan (16)
John Concannon (15)

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here is something i posted in the first incarnation of ATH: can we please avoid argueing about scores im only human and not omnipotent (unfortunatley) plus if i had to justify why people got different scores in each round it would turn into a mess plus there are another few rounds in which im sure you will all get contrasting scores in.

However i will occasionally pick someone with a low score and give a bit of an explanation/advice that may apply to more than just themselves.

i.e John Concannon: A long answer does not make a good answer but some development is needed if you are going to get better scores than those around you. Only actually two lines in your post were about what you would do with Jeff upon his return (line1:feud him with Orton and line4:back in the IC title hunt) Sorry to Single you out but yours is just an example.

this round was also an example in some ways of how

The host awards points for each response depending on how well argued their point is, not neccesarily if he agrees with their point (although that helps) but how well they back up their argument.

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ATH:Round 2
Q.This was posted in Round 1

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I think the WWE Draft should be a factor in WWE this year. They should really shake things up.

so, If you were in charge of the WWE Draft 2008 and each brand got 3 draft picks, how would you realistically shake things up and create a sense of freshness on all 3brands? and why would you make these draft choices?

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As there have not been a huge amount of applicants this time I am going to follow the lead of former geust host Danger Dave and allow late entry for people so until Round 2 is over answers for Round 1 will still be accepted.

Danger_Dave

Round 2: If you were in charge of the WWE Draft 2008 and each brand got 3 draft picks, how would you realistically shake things up and create a sense of freshness on all 3brands? and why would you make these draft choices?

This is a complex question so i am going to break it into 3 rounds, each getting a pick in each round.

First off i would set up the draft differently. I would make the brands fight for draft picks. As in For the the first round we would have a triple threat elimination matches last man standing gets the first round draft pick for the draft. It would start on raw, with all general managers there, 1st round match would be on Raw then the 2nd round draft pick round would be on Smackdown and finally ECW for the final draft pick match. The Draft pick would commence on the Raw after all the matches. This would allow all the GM's to travel around after the other shows during the matches to do promo's with the possible picks.

ECW win the First Match. Cm Punk vs Randy Orton vs Batista
Round 1 - 1st pick ECW, 2nd pick Smackdown 3 pick Raw.

Raw win 2 match, which is on smackdown. HHH vs Undertaker vs Kane
Raw 1st pick, 2nd pick ECW , 3rd pick Smackdown

Smackdown win 3rd match. Which is on Ecw. Matt Hardy vs Chavo Guerrero vs Mr Kennedy.

(All these matches would push the ratings of shows and really keep people interest up till the ppv after the draft at least, then thigns may settle down again. This Setup would give all 3 brands Maximum exposure )

First Round
ECW Pick Mickie James (C)! The stipulation of the pick is that the title stays with Mickie James. It would add another belt to ECW/smackdown and it would give a chance for the women of smackdown and ECW for more wrestling time.( This is something the WWE would do, and im trying to be realistic with the picks that ECW would actually get)
Smack Down Pick JBL ! . After a feud with Cena that will most likely end in him losing, he will need a fresh start. Smackdown needs credible heels, Can easily challenge for the Title against Undertaker/Batista/Edge !.
Raw Pick The Big Show ! ( He's not getting a good run at smackdown , fighting Khali/Mark Henry. not good enough, a Raw run for the title against HHH or a Feud with Cena Strong man angle finishing in a steel cage match or something could really boost the Big show or anyone he's fighting.


Second Round
Raw pick John Morrison ! ( Time for John Morrison to step up into the IC title fight with Jeff hardy/ Jericho/Kennedy) it will further develop him as a wrestler and hes gets some much needed exposure on the main show. He would of course have to drop the tag title with the Miz )
ECW pick Umaga, First Armando Estrada will manage him again, he can feud with Kane for the title for a time, while at the same time can be used to job/ or be the bulldozer on smackdown for say Vickie)
Smackdown pick Chavo guererro This is to further Develop the Edge/vickie/Chavo Stable, helps to attack undertaker, starts to feud with matt hardy for the US title. Forces Matt Hardy/Undertaker to tag against Edge/Chavo/ the edge Heads etc. )

Third Round
Smackdown pick HBK ! ( Billed as the pick of the Draft ! Allows the batista feud to continue, which was bubbling into what could potentially be a classic feud. It will also create a top tier division on smackdown that is balanced and full of genuine stars. Also a HBK/edge feud, Undertaker/HBK, JBL/HBK. HBK is the top guy to get 5 star matches out of other people in my opinion)
Raw pick CM Punk (Its on the cards anyway with the MITB, this just makes it offical , and him to work constantly with raws top performers, with him still floating between the 3 brands) Also it allows for the John Morrison/ Punk feud to re-ignite. perphas for a shot at the MITB)
ECW pick Finlay ! ( Finlay is a seasoned pro, and ECW have alot of young wrestlers , he can work more closely with them and still feud with Kane/Umaga, and he is still tied with Smackdown)

With all the matches leading up to the Draft picks, the promo's of the GM's , Wrestlers bargaining to stay on there existing shows, it would add a great deal of hype to the draft and to the show containing the draft picks.

P.S My longest answer to ATH .

Cactus Col

Round 2: If you were in charge of the WWE Draft 2008 and each brand got 3 draft picks, how would you realistically shake things up and create a sense of freshness on all 3brands? and why would you make these draft choices?

For the purposes of this question, I'm going to treat Smackdown and ECW as two seperate brands .... which they are supposed to be. I am also assuming that belt holders are ineligible, as is CM Punk, as he can challenge any champion with his money in the bank contract.

There would be three rounds of draft picks, with each brand rotating positions so they all get a first choice in different rounds, with the weakest brand first.

First I will show what draft picks would be made, and then break down the why's and wherefor's for each brand after.

Round 1:
ECW draft pick: John Cena
Smackdown draft pick: HBK
Raw draft pick: Batista

Round 2:
Smackdown draft pick: Chavo Guerrero
Raw draft pick: Mark Henry
ECW draft pick: Umaga

Round 3
Raw draft pick: MVP
ECW draft pick:Rey Mysterio
Smackdown draft pick: London & Kendrick

ECW:

The first ECW draft pick obviously is not going to happen, however, this will pave the way for a situation similar to the 2004 draft where Cena will be traded back to Raw for the Cody Rhodes and Hardcore Holly, with William Regal vacating the tag title to make this trade possible. Holly had a good run on ECW before his momentum was killed by a move to Raw. A return to ECW would give the brand a good worker, who could realistically step up to Kane, while also giving Rhodes a more forgiving proving grounds for him to learn. It may also result in at least a one night ratings increase where ECW can showcase just what they have to offer.

With Big Daddy V out for the forseeable future Matt Striker has nothing to do, so why not pair him up with Umaga. Umaga has done most of what he can do on Raw, to save his gimmick from going completely cold, he could be moved to ECW. This will keep him out of view from most wwe viewers, while also helping to give more credibility to ecw as a brand.

A Rey Mysterio move to ecw is much more realistic than John Cena, and with Vickie Guerrero's animosity to him, it is a move she would likely allow happen. Rey would benefit from the lighter schedule and could help bring younger wrestlers on. He could feud with John Morrison, the Miz, and Shelton Benjamin quite easily. As well as playing the under dog to Umaga. Again this would aslo gain ECW a lot of credibility, and maybe help improve those ratings.

Smackdown:
HBK is a no brainer. He is a legend. Feud him with the Undertaker, Edge, and MVP. HBK could easily become THE FACE of Smackdown.

Chavo to smackdown strenghtens the mid card quite a bit, he could immediately feud with Matt Hardy and MVP for the US Title. This can also play into the Vickie Guerrero / Edge stable, as they can consolidate their power on one show, while also getting rid of several of the factions enemies to the other brands (Mysterio and Batista.

London & Kendrick. These chaps are talented wrestlers, who had great momentum going until they were picked up by Raw. A move back to smackdown would give an extra bit of life to the smackdown tag division.

Raw:
Batista has done enough on smackdown. With Smackdown drafting HBK, and ECW drafting John Cena (at least for the night) then they need a big name back in, and so Batista makes the transition. He has done what he can on Smackdown, he's feuded with the top heels, and worked with Undertaker several times .... Now it's time to return to where he began, on raw. He can feud with triple H, Cena ... Or as a face with Orton and JBL. It'll keep him and Raw fresh.

Mark Henry. Well, with the loss of Umaga Raw needs another monster, and mark henry certainly fits the bill. Regal can draft in henry and use him as a body guard. Also, with recent history between Henry and Michael Hayes this could be a good way of keeping the two men apart, without it seeming like a demotion to Henry.

MVP. Raw needs some decent mid card talent, and after a great feud with Matt Hardy, MVP could move quickly onto a great feud with Jeff Hardy over the Intercontinental Championship. This would help bring credibility to the title, and a fresh face to mix up the mid card.

Danger_Dave

Cactus Col wrote: »

ECW:

The first ECW draft pick obviously is not going to happen, however, this will pave the way for a situation similar to the 2004 draft where Cena will be traded back to Raw for the Cody Rhodes and Hardcore Holly, with William Regal vacating the tag title to make this trade possible. Holly had a good run on ECW before his momentum was killed by a move to Raw. A return to ECW would give the brand a good worker, who could realistically step up to Kane, while also giving Rhodes a more forgiving proving grounds for him to learn. It may also result in at least a one night ratings increase where ECW can showcase just what they have to offer.

This just seems to be the waste of the draft to add excitement. Cena gets picked, but then is traded back for Rhodes/Holly ?. Seems like a cope out, and why take out them out of the raw tag division when there helping finally to get it back on track.

Cactus Col

Danger_Dave wrote: »

This just seems to be the waste of the draft to add excitement. Cena gets picked, but then is traded back for Rhodes/Holly ?. Seems like a cope out, and why take out them out of the raw tag division when there helping finally to get it back on track.

Well, I was thinking, if I were general manager of a brand, who would I choose with my first draft pick?

Of course I'd go for the biggest superstar I could get my hands on. In terms of kayfabe it's one of few things that would makes sense as a draft pick. (And I know pro wrestling doesn't always make sense). It would bring attention to ECW, the kind of attention that they have been lacking for a long time.

Of course there is no way Cena could join ECW as permament member of the roster, however, a couple of weeks on there would do him no harm. As I said it may improve the ratings and give ECW a chance to showcase itself to a larger audience.

So a short term concession may lead to better business.

As a tag team, I'm not excited by Rhodes and Holly at all. I feel that them holding the titles has actually weakened the tag division rather than improved it. The belts would be better around the waist of a more established team (ie the highlanders, cryme time, or Cade & Murdoch).

I will concede that Rhodes and Holly probably wouldn't be big enough names for the trade so a third superstar would probably have to be thrown into the mix ... although I'm not sure yet.