English lords still own thousands of arces in Ireland from the plantations

Johnny Bitte

Hey all,
Just read in then Irish Mail on Sunday (reliable I know) that a group of Lords from England still own thousands of arces here in Ireland since the plantations.

Now I m not a mad RA head here but there s definately a little voice inside me that says hold the **** on mate, surely stealing all the way back doesn't mean they should be still allowed to keep it.

Then I guess the question is who should get it if it is taken back?

Sherifu

...

JIZZLORD

hmmm, the irish mail on sunday, that bastion of journalistic integrity...
they've probably an article in the english version blasting the hatred of the irish towards the english landlords.

one of the red tops had an article in their irish about the wind that shakes the barley saying that it was an excellent film showing rebellion against the corrupt british system, Meanwhile the uk version said the film was a racist disgrace and was anti uk. etc

Flukey

You've only heard this now! That is common knowledge since the plantations. There is land, and even rivers, up and down the country still owned by British Lords. Where have you been all your life?

nomorebadtown

as long as they're not building shopping centres and luxury apartments on it, i couldnt give a monkey's/

JIZZLORD

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/twofaced-tabloids-sneer-at-film-success-but-not-in-irish-editions-130984.html

thelordofcheese

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Hey all,
Just read in then Irish Mail on Sunday (reliable I know) that a group of Lords from England still own thousands of arces here in Ireland since the plantations.

Now I m not a mad RA head here but there s definately a little voice inside me that says hold the **** on mate, surely stealing all the way back doesn't mean they should be still allowed to keep it.

Of course they should, why should they not be allowed to keep it?

Johnny Bitte

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Of course they should, why should they not be allowed to keep it?

Because the stole it?????????



I knew that some still had land but thousands of arces?
I dunno, it just seems a little pointless for all those men and women to have died for the country to have independence and they still let these people to hold on to lands that were given to them by the dictator of the country.

JIZZLORD

they were granted the land for some reason or another, back pay, loyalty etc. but you have to remember how did the former owners get this land in the first place, more than likely in the exact same feudal way

Kernel

Many people in Dublin who own their own homes have to pay ground rent, which basically goes to English landlords of old. You can buy them out, or continue paying them the rent. They must make a nice few quid out of it all the same.

Flukey

JIZZLORD wrote: »

they were granted the land for some reason or another, back pay, loyalty etc.

Perhaps, but they were being paid with something that wasn't owned by the people giving it. Let me put it this way: If I stole some of your money, wrote a law to say it was mine, and then gave it to a friend of mine in payment for something he had done, would that be ok with you?

thelordofcheese

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Because the stole it?????????



I knew that some still had land but thousands of arces?
I dunno, it just seems a little pointless for all those men and women to have died for the country to have independence and they still let these people to hold on to lands that were given to them by the dictator of the country.

Really? Those lords who are living in england and who own all this land just waltzed in here and knicked the lot of it and no-one noticed.

What criminal masterminds they must be, real life lex luthors.

JIZZLORD

by no means am i saying that these land grabs were correct. but irish land was never controlled by the majority of the irish public until the land reforms of parnell. Huge estates were owned by the british land owners, some absentee owners with no care of what happened with their land while some were owned by owners with a great involvement in the land and their tennants. Before these landowners got their land some of it may have belonged to norman invaders, before this by irish chieftains and kings. at any stage did the average irish man and woman own the land? No. It had been under some sort of control from an aristocracy for centuries

Johnny Bitte

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Really? Those lords who are living in england and who own all this land just waltzed in here and knicked the lot of it and no-one noticed.

What criminal masterminds they must be, real life lex luthors.

Christ you are an idiot.

The fact is it was not the ruler of England to give to their ancestor's and when the Republic was formed it should have been taking back for the country.

Simple as that.

Sherifu

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Christ you are an idiot.

Bold Goose.

So, how much of your land did they take Goosey?

Ste.phen

I think jizzlord said it best.
+1

Keano

Tis my field.


*grabs pitchfork*

Insect Overlord

Igy wrote: »

I think jizzlord said it best.
+1

Plus one more from me. OP, how much does this really impact on your everyday living? Unless you plan to launch some kind of appeal against the British aristocracy in the hope that they will give you all said land to divide among the Irish people as you see fit...

RuggieBear

Can cause some problems though

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2007/0328/1175003340652.html

Carrigart Exile

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Christ you are an idiot.

The fact is it was not the ruler of England to give to their ancestor's and when the Republic was formed it should have been taking back for the country.

Simple as that.

Isn't that what Robert Mugabe wants to do

Davidius

They should take it and give it back to the clans.

AlmightyCushion

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Christ you are an idiot.

Play nice.

Rowley Birkin QC

Colleague of my dads sold a field for development without tracing the title fully. Ooops.

Developer built about 5 houses, mistake was realised, big money sent off to England to settle the difference.

ronbyrne2005

The land was here long before humans. Thinking about it owning land is a rather abstract concept. "Possesion is nine tenths of the law" is about as fair a way of determining "ownership" as anything. Should the Irish people buying and driving up land prices in poor parts of eastern europe have the land taken off them? Even if original English landowners aquired the land unethically/immorally /forcefully subsequent generations aquired a good legal title to it. Before modern "Irish" arrived on this island some other inhabitants "owned" the land. A nation's boundaries are arbitary and change over time with changes in soverignty,culture etc. If Ireland was a militarily powerful country in 1200-1900ad we would have done same to Britain and Europe and Afria and Asia, thats the way things were done back then before this stronger nation state era

Thomas_S_Hunterson

bigkev49 wrote: »

Developer built about 5 houses, mistake was realised, big money sent off to England to settle the difference.

Shoulda said nothing and squatted for the 12 years or whatever it is, and hope he wasn't found out.

/edit...woops..the leasehold agreements might prevent the transfer of ownership though, i'm not sure how they're dealt with legally

Davidius

I'm taking over your land! What do you mean "you can't"? I think you'll be happy to know that I just made a law that says it's mine! Now GTFO! :pac:

JIZZLORD

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

The land was here long before humans. Thinking about it owning land is a rather abstract concept.

I hate when people say that. it's like when land owners in scenic areas have fences damaged, gates left open etc. The owner objects and some beardy rambler makes a claim that you cant really "own" land

ronbyrne2005

JIZZLORD wrote: »

I hate when people say that. it's like when land owners in scenic areas have fences damaged, gates left open etc. The owner objects and some beardy rambler makes a claim that you cant really "own" land

Who owns the atoms that make up your body. Who owns the oxygen atoms you breathe in ? Who owns the hydrogen ,carbon ones you breathe out? Who owns the moon?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Who owns the moon?

Anyone who wants some apparently:pac:

http://www.moonshop.com/

JIZZLORD

are you not familiar with the leasehold and freehold principles mentioned in that article from the times. land owners own the title for the land, ie they have the right to more or less do whatever the hell they want. in some countries if you have the title for land you own the rights to all the land below it until the centre of the earth (singapore i believe).

i do believe that i own the atoms in my body though

An Fear Aniar

It's never really been clear to me how ownership was transferred to the tenants. I think they got loans through the various Land Acts and then repaid them by "annuities" - which Dev then repudiated. Hee hee!

Well, if there had been no Norman Conquest, land ownership would still have followed the same pattern - the only difference being the ethnicity of the landlords.

Most Irish people, the "moghach" or serf class, had no rights at all under Gaelic law. These people actually found their lives improved under English rule at least for a time.

It's the same old story of the ruling elite living off everybody else, the only difference was whether they were Irish or English.



.

DublinWriter

The_Goose135 wrote: »

The fact is it was not the ruler of England to give to their ancestor's and when the Republic was formed it should have been taking back for the country.

Go forth goosey and do a little research on when the Irish Republic was formed*

*clue - it wasn't 1916

brow_601

Sean_K wrote: »

Anyone who wants some apparently:pac:

http://www.moonshop.com/

i thought the americans owned the moon?

thelordofcheese

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Christ you are an idiot.

The fact is it was not the ruler of England to give to their ancestor's and when the Republic was formed it should have been taking back for the country.

Simple as that.

Sorry goosey, it's nowhere near as simple as that. Look at it from the land owners perspective. The land has been in their family since long before they were born, it's a much theirs as it is anyones. Why should they give it back just because it ruffles your feathers?

EamonnKeane

I think all the land should be restored to the lineal descendent of the first person to reach Ireland in 8000 BC.

Trojan911

The_Goose135 wrote: »

Now I m not a mad RA head here

Congratulations...... but what the F**k has the RA got to do with it?

Gekko

nomorebadtown wrote: »

as long as they're not building shopping centres and luxury apartments on it, i couldnt give a monkey's/

+1

flanum

wot? just read the headline!! arses?? wtf? no english ****er owns my arse!

SimpleSam06

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Most Irish people, the "moghach" or serf class, had no rights at all under Gaelic law. These people actually found their lives improved under English rule at least for a time.

Brehon law has a wide variety of social status levels, and formed the most intriciate and comprehensive legal systems of its day. It is completely wrong to say most Irish people had no rights under this system.

Irish law recognizes a number of grades of people from unfree up to kings which are ranked within the status tract. Little space is giving to the unfree, which is reflective of the lack of dependence upon slaves as opposed to other societies, such as Ancient Rome. However, there were slaves mentioned in the laws, both male and female, and the term for a female slave, cumal, became a broader currency term. As unfree, a slave could not be a legal agent either for himself or in the case of another In addition to the wholly unfree, there are a few individuals who are semi-free. The sencléithe (hereditary serf) was bound the work the land of his master, whereas the fuidir had no independent status nor land of his own, but could at least leave as he might desire.

There are two main ranks of commoners, the ócaire (lit. young lord) and bóaire (cow lord), although Binchy takes the ócaire to be a recent offshot of the latter who would have less property but still be a freeman. In addition are the bóaire febsa (bóaire of quality who had an honor-price of 5 séts. The highest commoner was the mruigfer (land man). Either of the last, according, Binchy, may be the "normal bóaire who appears within the law texts." The three ranks of commoners, at least according to the status tract, vary in the type of clientship they would undertake as well as the property which they would hold, although it is unclear how such would work in practice. The commoners would apparently have to cooperate in farming as they would not have enough property to own a whole plough-share or all the rights in a mill.

As for the English lords owning land since the plantations, have it off them and be done with it. They never had any right to it and have no right now.

Cunny-Funt

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

If Ireland was a militarily powerful country in 1200-1900ad we would have done same to Britain and Europe and Afria and Asia, thats the way things were done back then before this stronger nation state era

Agreed, however that does NOT make it right.

Trojan911 wrote: »

Congratulations...... but what the F**k has the RA got to do with it?

Because these days saying anything "pro Irish" seems to automatically mean your Pro IRA, or at least thats the attitude of a lot of people. & out of fear of looking like a "RA head" people now roll their eyes when there's any talk of anything to do with Ireland in terms of those hanging issues left over from our war to gain out country back.

It's almost like people are embarrassed that we got it back. It kinda sickens me.

The Sweeper

So we should take the land back eh?

I'd like to see a proposal on this.

What shall we do with the buildings the English lords own on their land? Shall we buy those buildings from them? Shall we simply steal those buildings? How about the improvements the English lords have done on those lands? (Forestation, drainage, fencing, roads, pathways) - how shall we reimburse them for that work? Shall we simply overlook it?

And who shall the title change to? The government? No! Never the government! The deserving people of Ireland! Right. So how do we decide who's deserving?

Hey - how about this - what if we simply declare that anyone paying ground rent to an English landowner automatically assumes title to the land they rent. Oh hey hold on, what about the people who've bought their land out? They had to pay for something someone else is getting for free. Oh dear.

And worse again!! What happens if the homeowner is a NON NATIONAL?? They're getting free Irish land if we take it from the English lord and give it to them! Can they have free Irish land?

Oh hey - what if they're BRITISH PEOPLE who own a house here? Does it matter if we're taking the land off an English landowner to give it to an English landowner?

Oh decisions decisions...

Kernel

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

How about the improvements the English lords have done on those lands? (Forestation, drainage, fencing, roads, pathways) - how shall we reimburse them for that work? Shall we simply overlook it?

800 years is payment enough, who's with me!?? :pac:

SimpleSam06

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

And who shall the title change to? The government? No! Never the government!

Yes, the government, and current landowners, via eminent domain.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

The deserving people of Ireland! Right. So how do we decide who's deserving?

Hey - how about this - what if we simply declare that anyone paying ground rent to an English landowner automatically assumes title to the land they rent.

Sounds good.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Oh hey hold on, what about the people who've bought their land out? They had to pay for something someone else is getting for free. Oh dear.

Taxi drivers working in the business most of their lives lost tens of thousands of euros EACH due to deregulation. Eggs, omelette, etc.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

And worse again!! What happens if the homeowner is a NON NATIONAL??

Most of them are living in social and affordable housing anyway, its basically government land for the next fifteen years mostly.

Kernel wrote: »

800 years is payment enough, who's with me!?? :pac:

+1

Defenestrate

Is that you Mugabe?

SimpleSam06

Defenestrate wrote: »

Is that you Mugabe?

<_<

>_>

Different situation anyway, you wouldn't be evicting anyone, just prying the fat little fingers of a shower of sister loving wahoos out of the country at long last, and preventing the retardation of the development of the country by said party of disinterested punks.

stakey

And once we're finished running those English divils out of the country we'll head up to Dublin and run those other Johnny foreigners out of their 'embassies' and reclaim our land in Dublin too!!!

Defenestrate

And then we'll start on the Poles!

chopperbyrne

Don't be silly, we'll get the Poles help to rid us of the Roma first!

SimpleSam06

stakey wrote: »

And once we're finished running those English divils out of the country we'll head up to Dublin and run those other Johnny foreigners out of their 'embassies' and reclaim our land in Dublin too!!!

Unlike the English landed gentry, the embassies actually server a useful purpose.

the_syco

Defenestrate wrote: »

And then we'll start on the Poles!

Them wooden ones, or the metal light poles as well?

=-=

Before the english lords had the land, the irish kings had the land, and they gained the land through wars and what not.

stakey

Really? It's rather pointless having embassies from other European Union countries these days. They serve very little to no puprose thanks to the integration of the EU.

But hey that leaves the UK embassy for a bit of pitch fork action! So i'm sure the usual armchair republicans will be overjoyed once we get going on this crusade.