Taser used in Limerick

CLADA

Traumadoc wrote: »

We have serious concerns as, if they are seen as "non-lethal" they may be used more to subdue people "the easy option". But innocent people may be killed as a result.

If you have serious concerns and are interested in some research I would suggest you look further than the national newspapers. There are numerus independent medical studies which are easily accessible on the internet.

As Jonanderton has pointed out they are primarily issued in UK and Ireland to specialist firearms teams and are classed as firearms.
The ERU have them as part of their "less than lethal" capability and are used to prevent a situation escalating to the point where lethal force may have to be used.

Due to the fact that they are classed as a firearm their use is governed by strict guidelines, so issuing this device across the force is unlikely to be considered.

I'm not sure about the "innocent people may be killed" comment.
Are you concerned about the dangers of the device or do you not trust the ERU to use it according to guidelines.

Turner

Well to be hnest the metal asp is far more lethal than a taser. And it is issued to all gardai.

One wrong strike of the asp (which could happen in a grapple or serious attack on a gard where the Gard is unable to aim and just lashes out to protect himself) could fracture the skull or inflict a fatal blow to the head.

The Artist

Chief--- wrote: »

Well to be hnest the metal asp is far more lethal than a taser. And it is issued to all gardai.

One wrong strike of the asp (which could happen in a grapple or serious attack on a gard where the Gard is unable to aim and just lashes out to protect himself) could fracture the skull or inflict a fatal blow to the head.

sorry to interupt are ye saying that every guardi have been issued a taser now?

Tango Alpha 51

No every Garda has not been issued with a taser only members of the ERU. However, it is one of the many recommendations by Kathleen O' Toole that tasers, cs gas etc be considered for use by the general members of the force.

The Artist

buzzman wrote: »

No every Garda has not been issued with a taser only members of the ERU. However, it is one of the many recommendations by Kathleen O' Toole that tasers, cs gas etc be considered for use by the general members of the force.

did you now that those cs sprays are very cheap and im sure the that IMO that all guardi should carry these as it would stop the trouble fast on criminals or offenders.

Turner

davey180 wrote: »

sorry to interupt are ye saying that every guardi have been issued a taser now?

No i am on about the asp baton issued to all gardai.

Basically it is an extendable metal bar that gardai have been trained to hit people with (if needs be).

shakin

i think cs and asps are enough the tasers cost too much for the use they would get and as previously said can be fatal. for the money they cost(€1000) it would be better spent on improving the uniforms

cushtac

shakin wrote: »

i think cs and asps are enough the tasers cost too much for the use they would get and as previously said can be fatal. for the money they cost(€1000) it would be better spent on improving the uniforms

The Taser is no more lethal than a baton or spray, both of which can kill, and a Taser wouldn't cost €1000 if bought in bulk.

shakin

cushtac wrote: »

The Taser is no more lethal than a baton or spray, both of which can kill, and a Taser wouldn't cost €1000 if bought in bulk.

no more lethal! in fairness 50000volts compared to cs spray! i know what id pick. and they would still cost near €1000. no need anyway!

cushtac

shakin wrote: »

no more lethal! in fairness 50000volts compared to cs spray!

People die from exposure to OC and CS too, and everyone is allergic to being hit with a baton. Look at the research into Taser useage, when properly used it is no more likely to result in death than other methods.

shakin wrote: »

i know what id pick. and they would still cost near €1000. no need anyway!

You've no way of knowing what the unit cost would be in a bulk order.

Traumadoc

CLADA wrote: »

If you have serious concerns and are interested in some research I would suggest you look further than the national newspapers. There are numerus independent medical studies which are easily accessible on the internet.

As Jonanderton has pointed out they are primarily issued in UK and Ireland to specialist firearms teams and are classed as firearms.
The ERU have them as part of their "less than lethal" capability and are used to prevent a situation escalating to the point where lethal force may have to be used.

Due to the fact that they are classed as a firearm their use is governed by strict guidelines, so issuing this device across the force is unlikely to be considered.

I'm not sure about the "innocent people may be killed" comment.
Are you concerned about the dangers of the device or do you not trust the ERU to use it according to guidelines.

Yes there are many papers that have concerns about the use of tasers, I have no problem with the ERU using it according to guidelines, I would be more concerned about it being a general devise used on the street to subdue acutely psychotic patients.


Strote J, Range Hutson H.
Division of Emergency Medicine, Department of Medicine, University of Washington Medical Center, Seattle, WA 98195, USA. strote@u.washington.edu

OBJECTIVE: The Taser is an electric weapon capable of releasing significant amounts of electricity in rapid pulses, causing uncontrollable muscle contraction. Use of this weapon has dramatically increased over the past decade, and it is now commonly used by law enforcement officers nationwide. Emergency medical services providers are, likewise, seeing more patients who have recently been subjected to application of a Taser. We examined the autopsy reports of patients who died after application of a Taser in an attempt to identify high-risk interactions. METHODS: This is a case series of Taser-related deaths. Fatalities occurring over four years beginning in January 2001 were identified through an Internet search, and autopsy reports were requested. Reports were analyzed for patient demographics, preexisting cardiac disease, toxicology, evidence of excited delirium, restraint techniques used, and listed cause of death. RESULTS: Of 75 cases identified, 37 (49.3%) had autopsy reports available for review. All cases involved men, with ages ranging from 18 to 50 years. Cardiovascular disease was found in 54.1%. Illegal substance use was found on toxicology screening for 78.4%; within that group, 86.2% were found to have been using stimulants. A diagnosis of excited delirium was given for 75.7% of the cases. Use of a Taser was considered a potential or contributory cause of death in 27%. CONCLUSIONS: This is the largest review of Taser-related fatalities reported in the medical literature. The findings are consistent with prior studies, suggesting a high frequency of restraint-related and excited delirium-related fatalities.

CLADA

Traumadoc wrote: »

Yes there are many papers that have concerns about the use of tasers, I have no problem with the ERU using it according to guidelines, I would be more concerned about it being a general devise used on the street to subdue acutely psychotic patients.

I think Oleoresin Capsicum (OC spray) will more than likely be on general issue to the Gardai in the near future and not Taser.

In relation to the acutely psychotic patients, well that depends on the circumstances and their actions. If a person suffering from a mental illness is on the street in possession of a bladed weapon threatening others, then taser is far more preferable to a conventional firearm.

Just to clear up this 50,000 volts issue, voltage is not the killer in electricity, the current or amperage is. The amperage in this device is insignificant, the voltage is used in Taser to carry the technology to the subject.
The technology is a pulse that hits the subject 19 times a second and overides the central nervous system causing neuromuscular incapacitation.

deadwood

These are all useful when used properly. Why is it though, that people say "..well, of course the ERU should have them, but not regular guards.." or something along those lines. In the vast majority of cases, an unarmed, uniformed guard will be the first to any incident. Be it a drunk man with a bottle and/or attitude or a firearms related incident. The culture in the gardai is to look upon the "just an ordinary" (I'm sick of that phrase) guard as the poor relation when, in fact, he or she is the first person at most scenes, the last person at every scene and the one who is most likely to meet confrontation on a day-to-day basis. Specialist units are necessary and are the best people to deal with certain situations (one there for our northern friends!). However, they are Support services. The "front Line" are the regular, uniform people who are the most poorly resourced, trained and equipped.:mad::mad::mad: Still, though, while the right attitude always goes a lot further than any taser, it'd be nice to be able to give it a reassuring tap when you're heading out on the beat on a Saturday night!

The Artist

cushtac wrote: »

The Taser is no more lethal than a baton or spray, both of which can kill, and a Taser wouldn't cost €1000 if bought in bulk.

i know that cs spray can be brought for a packet of three for €2 .It would be cheaper than tazers!

The Artist

CLADA wrote: »

I think Oleoresin Capsicum (OC spray) will more than likely be on general issue to the Gardai in the near future and not Taser.

In relation to the acutely psychotic patients, well that depends on the circumstances and their actions. If a person suffering from a mental illness is on the street in possession of a bladed weapon threatening others, then taser is far more preferable to a conventional firearm.

Just to clear up this 50,000 volts issue, voltage is not the killer in electricity, the current or amperage is. The amperage in this device is insignificant, the voltage is used in Taser to carry the technology to the subject.
The technology is a pulse that hits the subject 19 times a second and overides the central nervous system causing neuromuscular incapacitation.

Imo would kill someone with a ticker?

deadwood

davey180 wrote: »

i know that cs spray can be brought for a packet of three for €2 .It would be cheaper than tazers!

Get yizzer taaaasers heeor. tereee fer a euroo love. give one to yer mammy ye scumbaag ye. last o' de cheeeeeky chaaaarleees

The Artist

deadwood wrote: »

Get yizzer taaaasers heeor. tereee fer a euroo love. give one to yer mammy ye scumbaag ye. last o' de cheeeeeky chaaaarleees

what in the name of god are ye saying!

The Artist

deadwood wrote: »

Get yizzer taaaasers heeor. tereee fer a euroo love. give one to yer mammy ye scumbaag ye. last o' de cheeeeeky chaaaarleees

noted,reported:D

deadwood

:DOh don't be so sensitive. It's just that "3 for €" sounds like a Moore St. sales pitch. I guess my written version doesn'y read very well. What's this reorted and noted lark?

shakin

cushtac wrote: »

People die from exposure to OC and CS too, and everyone is allergic to being hit with a baton. Look at the research into Taser useage, when properly used it is no more likely to result in death than other methods.



You've no way of knowing what the unit cost would be in a bulk order.

okm but it would still be much more expensive than cs spray. and the tasers are more lethal. yes the baton if not used properly can be fatal but if used in a safe manner i.e. not smacking someone across the head. the cs gas incapacitates but the taser can affect underlying problems e.g. hear problems even ones not known to the person so it should be used as a last resort, and anyway cant the baton and cs gas can be used as effectively?

cushtac

shakin wrote: »

okm but it would still be much more expensive than cs spray. and the tasers are more lethal.

Where's your proof of this? Show us the study that said CS or OC is safer than Taser.

shakin wrote: »

yes the baton if not used properly can be fatal but if used in a safe manner i.e. not smacking someone across the head.

That's a big 'if', and the same can be said for any less-lethal device. A study of the effects of Taser by the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Centre found that the baton was much more likely to cause serious injury to a suspect.

shakin wrote: »

the cs gas incapacitates but the taser can affect underlying problems e.g. heart problems even ones not known to the person so it should be used as a last resort,

People have had adverse reactions, and died, as a result of the use of CS & OC. The use of any weapon can affect a subject's underlying health problems, it's not exclusive to Taser.

shakin wrote: »

and anyway cant the baton and cs gas can be used as effectively?

Last year Garda in Cabra had her baton taken off her by a gang who ended using it on her, she ended up with a ruptured spleen. CS & OC are very effective, but some people are immune to OC and there is a good chance of cross-contamination with both agents.

I'm not advocating Taser over CS or OC, but I dispute the idea that it is more dangerous than sprays. There is an inherent risk in the use of any less-lethal weapon. There is obviously a place for it in the Garda toolbox and the notion that regular Gardai are somehow incapable of using it is ludicrous.

shakin

Last year Garda in Cabra had her baton taken off her by a gang who ended using it on her, she ended up with a ruptured spleen. CS & OC are very effective, but some people are immune to OC and there is a good chance of cross-contamination with both agents.

surely they could have taken her tazer as well and cs gas for that matter? and i think i heard before that 1 in 10 are immune?

I'm not advocating Taser over CS or OC, but I dispute the idea that it is more dangerous than sprays. There is an inherent risk in the use of any less-lethal weapon. There is obviously a place for it in the Garda toolbox and the notion that regular Gardai are somehow incapable of using it is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]

but tazers are described as less-lethal and cs gases non-lethal theres a big difference there? and i agree there is place for it in the garda toolbox but not on the tool-belt i feel. and also i never said that uniformed gardai were incapable

The Artist

deadwood wrote: »

:DOh don't be so sensitive. It's just that "3 for €" sounds like a Moore St. sales pitch. I guess my written version doesn'y read very well. What's this reorted and noted lark?

its sorted i thought you were calling me a scumbag ?

metman

shakin wrote: »

...and anyway cant the baton and cs gas can be used as effectively?

It depends on the situation.

Ordinarily a baton and CS are more than enough for me to do my job. However I've encountered suspects who through use of alcohol and cocaine (as well as good old adrenaline) have proven resistant to pain compliance techniques i.e baton strikes, and have continued to struggle violently despite being batoned. Similarly I've encountered some physically huge suspects (usually a result of steroid abuse and jail-gym time) where baton strikes have failed to yield the desired result.

Both of the above scenarios are usually resolved by officer weight of numbers. This approach is messy and officers get hurt, as can the suspect. The public are always uneasy with a lot of coppers on one suspect as well and often numbers are mistaken for, or deliberately labelled, 'police brutality'.

Similarly CS can have zero effect on certain subjects, so those suffering from excited delirium or mental health problems, those who are high on drink or drugs etc, while some people are naturally less affected by it than others.

OC/Pava/Captor has a higher success rate than CS but requires a more accurate shot, ie hitting your target directly in the eyes (not always easy when someone is trying to cave your head in).

Taser functions regardless of what a suspect has taken or what his mental/physical state is. Provided your shot is good your suspect will go down. As soon as you take your finger from the trigger, the suspect will recover almost immediately. This IMO is far more effective than any amount of baton strikes or application of CS or Captor.

I'm looking forward to Taser being rolled out to divisional officers. We've already had the familiarisation training, so the sooner the better as far as I'm concerned.

Turner

cushtac wrote: »

Last year Garda in Cabra had her baton taken off her by a gang who ended using it on her, she ended up with a ruptured spleen. CS & OC are very effective, but some people are immune to OC and there is a good chance of cross-contamination with both agents.

There are very strong issues with the height and strength requirement being lifted for entry into the gardai.

Equal status and all that but its not an office job they are signing up to. (well not until they get pregnant).

Its a job to go out and be an unarmed police officer in dangerous situations with very basic resources and protection.

Some gardai graduating are in the four foot bracket!!

Totally unacceptable for the job they are required to do, and unfair on the person who has to work with them.

cushtac

shakin wrote: »

surely they could have taken her tazer as well and cs gas for that matter? and i think i heard before that 1 in 10 are immune?

They could have, but at least with a Taser or spray she could have tried to put some distance between herself & the attackers and still been able to affect them. There's also a bigger psycological effect with Taser or spray. 1 in 10 are immune to OC, but no one is immune to Taser.

shakin wrote: »

but tazers are described as less-lethal and cs gases non-lethal theres a big difference there? and i agree there is place for it in the garda toolbox but not on the tool-belt i feel. and also i never said that uniformed gardai were incapable

They are all now described as less-lethal, there is no difference.

I wasn't accusing you of saying uniformed Gardai weren't capable, I should have made that clearer & apologise if I gave you that idea. The notion persists, however, that regular Gardai are unable to use such devices & don't need them.

shakin

cushtac wrote: »

Where's your proof of this? Show us the study that said CS or OC is safer than Taser.



That's a big 'if', and the same can be said for any less-lethal device. A study of the effects of Taser by the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Centre found that the baton was much more likely to cause serious injury to a suspect.



People have had adverse reactions, and died, as a result of the use of CS & OC. The use of any weapon can affect a subject's underlying health problems, it's not exclusive to Taser.



Last year Garda in Cabra had her baton taken off her by a gang who ended using it on her, she ended up with a ruptured spleen. CS & OC are very effective, but some people are immune to OC and there is a good chance of cross-contamination with both agents.

I'm not advocating Taser over CS or OC, but I dispute the idea that it is more dangerous than sprays. There is an inherent risk in the use of any less-lethal weapon. There is obviously a place for it in the Garda toolbox and the notion that regular Gardai are somehow incapable of using it is ludicrous.

metman wrote: »

It depends on the situation.

Ordinarily a baton and CS are more than enough for me to do my job. However I've encountered suspects who through use of alcohol and cocaine (as well as good old adrenaline) have proven resistant to pain compliance techniques i.e baton strikes, and have continued to struggle violently despite being batoned. Similarly I've encountered some physically huge suspects (usually a result of steroid abuse and jail-gym time) where baton strikes have failed to yield the desired result.

Both of the above scenarios are usually resolved by officer weight of numbers. This approach is messy and officers get hurt, as can the suspect. The public are always uneasy with a lot of coppers on one suspect as well and often numbers are mistaken for, or deliberately labelled, 'police brutality'.

Similarly CS can have zero effect on certain subjects, so those suffering from excited delirium or mental health problems, those who are high on drink or drugs etc, while some people are naturally less affected by it than others.

OC/Pava/Captor has a higher success rate than CS but requires a more accurate shot, ie hitting your target directly in the eyes (not always easy when someone is trying to cave your head in).

Taser functions regardless of what a suspect has taken or what his mental/physical state is. Provided your shot is good your suspect will go down. As soon as you take your finger from the trigger, the suspect will recover almost immediately. This IMO is far more effective than any amount of baton strikes or application of CS or Captor.

I'm looking forward to Taser being rolled out to divisional officers. We've already had the familiarisation training, so the sooner the better as far as I'm concerned.

well your the man on the ground using it so i cant argue with that, dont see it been rolled out here for a few years for the gardai they havent pepper spray yet!

shakin

cushtac wrote: »

They could have, but at least with a Taser or spray she could have tried to put some distance between herself & the attackers and still been able to affect them. There's also a bigger psycological effect with Taser or spray. 1 in 10 are immune to OC, but no one is immune to Taser.



They are all now described as less-lethal, there is no difference.

I wasn't accusing you of saying uniformed Gardai weren't capable, I should have made that clearer & apologise if I gave you that idea. The notion persists, however, that regular Gardai are unable to use such devices & don't need them.

well as a civilian with no experience in having to detain someone i can only say what i think,i would think thats asps and gas are enough but we will see, we will see how it works across the water first anyway...

Mutz

cushtac wrote: »

..... The notion persists, however, that regular Gardai are unable to use such devices & don't need them.

This is probably the root of why uniform gardai are not taken seriously in this country. Some people seem not to be satisfied with their night out without being arrested by taking a pop at a Guard! If Gardai are seen to be equipped with the likes of a tazer or spray, people will think twice before messing with a guard.

Since i've been issued with the ASP in February I haven't had to use it yet thank god. I have taken it into my hand in the "Interview Stance" given a few occasions, but I've not had to extend it. This was in the case of an *extremely* aggressive drunk (and coked up) man in his late twenties outside a packed bar with plenty of people wathcing. (It was raining - what is it with fights in the rain?! )
Given the circumstances, there were four gardai present. Had this fella kicked off, all his mates would probably have joined in. Four gardai against three lads is not a good ratio as it usually takes two or more gardai to retrain one person who is mildly aggressive. Spray or tazer would be handy in that circumstance. You'd be lucky to get in a well aimed baton strike as he would advance on you the second you swing.

If you're acting in a aggressive manner, you're going to hurt someone or you're going to ger hurt. It the choice they mke in acting in such a manner. Uniform Gardai are good enough to make the decision on the level of force they need to use and should be given that choice for their own safety.

I think the Tazer or Pepper Spray would be welcomed largely by the uniform members as its an added comfort. It only takes thirty seconds to get a hiding and in that 30 seconds, the tazer or OC spray may have stalled them long enough to have assistence at scene.

deadwood

davey180 wrote: »

its sorted i thought you were calling me a scumbag ?

Certainly not. Just my version of humour which usually ends up getting me in trouble. I really should stick to being a quiet observer.