Taser used in Limerick

helimachoptor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0411/limerick.html

Taser used in Limerick arrest

A man has been arrested and an automatic weapon has been recovered as part of an investigation into serious crime in Limerick.
A Taser gun was used during last night's operation.
The 46-year-old man was arrested as he walked along a road in the Rhebogue area of Limerick at around 10.45pm last night.
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Gardaí suspected that the man was armed and the Emergency Response Unit used a Taser in the arrest. It is the first time that a Taser has been used by gardaí.
When the man was searched, a loaded handgun was found with two magazines and 16 rounds of ammunition.
The was taken to Henry Street Garda Station and gardaí have described the arrest as significant.
The man is linked to the Keane-Collopy gang in Limerick and is one of the top ten figures in the ongoing criminal feud.

Any thoughts on this??



I think its about time, But I wouldnt have been bothered if he was shot either.

r3nu4l

Tasers are in frequent use in the UK but even at that their use is still not wholly accepted by the media.

There were concerns raised recently about the number of taser incidents in the UK.

BBC News Figures
Cambridgeshire figures

In my opinion, as a member of the public, if someone is known to be carrying weapons and refuses to cooperate then the gardaí should use the taser to ensure their own safety.

If the person is unknown to the gardaí, suspected of carrying a weapon and refusing to comply with directions from the gardaí then I also think it's use is justified.

I know in many police forces in the US, any officer who carries a taser has to have experienced the effects of a taser, I wonder is that the case with the ERU and the British constabulary?

itsallaboutheL

it is.

Turner

r3nu4l wrote: »

Tasers are in frequent use in the UK but even at that their use is still not wholly accepted by the media.

Its got nothing to do with the media.

Unless they were there at the particular incident.

r3nu4l

Chief--- wrote: »

Its got nothing to do with the media.

Unless they were there at the particular incident.

Whether you like it or not Chief (and I don't like it!), the media has a huge effect on public perception. :mad: No amount of press releases from the Garda press office will influence public opinion as much as something printed in a tabloid or heard on the radio or TV.

While the majority of the public will be happy with this particular usage, all it will take is one instance where the media feel the taser was misused for them to begin writing self-righteous, highly emotive pieces that influence public perception.

However, this is a good start to taser use in Ireland

Frisbee

Im 100% percent behind the issuing of tasers to Gardaí.
We're finally catching up with the rest of the world were a long weighted stick cant solve all the problems a guard will come across...

maglite

IS this the hand gun type with the darts?

It is a welcomed addition, and if they make a mistake there are less consiquences and in a justified arrest it is a better outcome for the "zapped" guy

Santa Claus

maglite wrote: »

IS this the hand gun type with the darts?

This is the type used in the UK


I would imagine if this is rolled out beyond the ERU then the powers that be would prefer to go for one that is not a gun shape as it could lead to unarmed gardai being mistaken for being armed etc (the GRA would probably not be too keen on the gun shape)

Fyr.Fytr

Hence why it is bright yellow.

Seems to be an excellent idea, tell you what media would have more of a feild day if he was shot

JonAnderton

I regulary carry the x26 TASER at work (It's a more compact version of the M26 which were the initial issued kit as above). It's a great bit of kit but I don't need to have experienced it to know that so no, the UK police don't have to have feel it to deal it.

The Taser's are yellow so as to distingish them from firearms for us as well as them. The gun shape means it's easy to use and natural for a firearms officer to shoot. The red dot sight alone has a tremendous effect on people

I can only talk from a UK perspective, but we're still taught to always bring a gun to a gunfight. The TASER's still there as a tactical option, but if the blokes definatly got a gun, then you should be covering him with a gun also. I'm sure the ERU use this rule as well...

As for the effects it has on people:
ASP: Breaks bone, permanent disfigurement, very sore ribs.
CS Spray: Positional Asphixia, cross contamination (trust me, I know)
TASER: 5 seconds (or less) of involuntary compliance. That it... No after effects...except maybe two small holes where the barbs were.. if they pierced the skin, they can work by sticking in clothing as well...

Santa Claus

I know it's bright yellow, but whats to stop criminal spraying a gun yellow to make it look like a taser.
I can't see regular Gardai being issued with these in a gun shape, but that's just my opinion !

JonAnderton

Why would they want to make peple think it was a taser? Surley they'd prefer a taser to look like a gun.

The response from the ERU should be the same wheather he's armed with a gun or a taser.



We've (Met) just started an extension to our 'trial' allowing non firearms officers to deploy tasers in more situations where force would be used.

The sooner these things are personal issue, the better...

Traumadoc

JonAnderton wrote: »

TASER: 5 seconds (or less) of involuntary compliance. That it... No after effects...except maybe two small holes where the barbs were.. if they pierced the skin, they can work by sticking in clothing as well...

Not that simple.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1486

peckerhead

JonAnderton wrote: »

The sooner these things are personal issue, the better...

The perfect stocking filler. :eek:

JonAnderton

lol... I hope that wasn't CS as everyone knows CS is flammable so you wouldn't want to introduce a current to it... tisk tisk.. where's her officer safety.... and no fire extinguisher nearby... Health and safety would have her ass...

Sierra Oscar

Considering he was armed - it was def the right thing. Did the ERU themselves actually produce their own actual firearms in the arrest?

timmywex

the man the eru tasered, was proven to be armed, in previous years, that situation would have gone to a lengthly standoff or the suspect would have been shot with a letal bullet. The taser is a much better option.

To back up his use, chief of poilce in north wales, the famous richard brunston, lets himself get shot.;
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=dBmddH3_yXE&feature=related

some very interesting initatives from north wales police up there also!
http://ie.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=northwalespoliceTV

Traumadoc

When the say "used" do they mean fired or was it just deployed and used as a threat to subdue the person.

JonAnderton

Thats a good question... Surley the media wouldn't try and stir up controvesry by playing on words... Clarification needed...

As for the ERU drawing weapons... Goes back to the first rule of tactics.. Always bring a gun to a gunfight.. depends on the situation... firearms seen/not seen... in plain view/easy reach.. either way, he should have been covered with a conventional firearm before the taser was introduced...

Guy:Incognito

OT but are those tazers (the gun shaped ones that fire the barbs) single use or do the wire retract back in to be used again? What sort of lenght are they?

Just curious.

jd83

you have to re attach a new clip after each shot on to the end of the device

JonAnderton

The taser's single shot (hence the firearms cover), once the cartrigdes been fired and hit the target, you can continue to deliver the charge for as long as the barbs are attached...

If you miss or the barbs come out, you have to reload.. you can carry one spare cartridge on the bottom of the battery on the pistol grip... reloads only take a few seconds... fire, turn off/make safe. pull off old cartridge and throw towards target, remove spare cartridge and push on front end, switch on and you're ready to go again...

opti76

i hope he tels all his mates how it feels.. about time it was used im guessing it was highly effective

jd83

they sound like a handy thing to have in a risky situation, i think regular guards should get them or cs or something to protect themselves in general.

JonAnderton

forget the CS... Doesn't work on everyone (unless you on the side of good, then it's 100% effective)...

jd83

i wouldnt know and dont plan on finding out anytime soon But with tasers you always see stuff in the news from the states about cops using it it situations where they shouldnt have so could lead to problems down the line. They should test it in limerick

JonAnderton

just needs a set of 'rules' when they can be used, like we're doing over here.. giving them to fireaerms officers immedialty means the people using them treat them like guns, and there's policy on the use of firearms, so it's an easy transition...

CLADA

Traumadoc wrote: »

Not that simple.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1486

Don't mean to sound like a football manager but "at the end of the day" not a single inquest or court of law has yet found Taser liable for any of the so called "Taser related deaths" the media and amnesty so often accuse it of.

Eru

CLADA wrote: »

Don't mean to sound like a football manager but "at the end of the day" not a single inquest or court of law has yet found Taser liable for any of the so called "Taser related deaths" the media and amnesty so often accuse it of.

Seconded!

Traumadoc

We have serious concerns as, if they are seen as "non-lethal" they may be used more to subdue people "the easy option". But innocent people may be killed as a result.

JonAnderton

As I said before, there's policy set up for their use, thats why only firearms officers are given them. they understand the responsibility of using them. I can speak from experience that tasers are treated exactly the same as firearms. There's situations when firearms can and should be used, and the tasers the same. They CANNOT be used as merely compliance tools, as often seen in the US. Any deployment (taking it out the holster) is considered a use of force and 'deploying firearms'). Any discharge (intentional or unintentional) or use is investigated by complaints. Bear in mind they have dataports in the back which can be downloaded and gives information on all functins (time/date of use, how long was the burst, etc)

The phrase is 'less lethal' instead of non lethal as anything used can in theory cause death, we've been through all this in the past with CS spray...

In these situations, there's usually another underlying concern, CS doesn't cause the persons death, positional asphixia does or improper aftercare.

CLADA

Traumadoc wrote: »

We have serious concerns as, if they are seen as "non-lethal" they may be used more to subdue people "the easy option". But innocent people may be killed as a result.

If you have serious concerns and are interested in some research I would suggest you look further than the national newspapers. There are numerus independent medical studies which are easily accessible on the internet.

As Jonanderton has pointed out they are primarily issued in UK and Ireland to specialist firearms teams and are classed as firearms.
The ERU have them as part of their "less than lethal" capability and are used to prevent a situation escalating to the point where lethal force may have to be used.

Due to the fact that they are classed as a firearm their use is governed by strict guidelines, so issuing this device across the force is unlikely to be considered.

I'm not sure about the "innocent people may be killed" comment.
Are you concerned about the dangers of the device or do you not trust the ERU to use it according to guidelines.

Turner

Well to be hnest the metal asp is far more lethal than a taser. And it is issued to all gardai.

One wrong strike of the asp (which could happen in a grapple or serious attack on a gard where the Gard is unable to aim and just lashes out to protect himself) could fracture the skull or inflict a fatal blow to the head.

The Artist

Chief--- wrote: »

Well to be hnest the metal asp is far more lethal than a taser. And it is issued to all gardai.

One wrong strike of the asp (which could happen in a grapple or serious attack on a gard where the Gard is unable to aim and just lashes out to protect himself) could fracture the skull or inflict a fatal blow to the head.

sorry to interupt are ye saying that every guardi have been issued a taser now?

Tango Alpha 51

No every Garda has not been issued with a taser only members of the ERU. However, it is one of the many recommendations by Kathleen O' Toole that tasers, cs gas etc be considered for use by the general members of the force.

The Artist

buzzman wrote: »

No every Garda has not been issued with a taser only members of the ERU. However, it is one of the many recommendations by Kathleen O' Toole that tasers, cs gas etc be considered for use by the general members of the force.

did you now that those cs sprays are very cheap and im sure the that IMO that all guardi should carry these as it would stop the trouble fast on criminals or offenders.

Turner

davey180 wrote: »

sorry to interupt are ye saying that every guardi have been issued a taser now?

No i am on about the asp baton issued to all gardai.

Basically it is an extendable metal bar that gardai have been trained to hit people with (if needs be).

shakin

i think cs and asps are enough the tasers cost too much for the use they would get and as previously said can be fatal. for the money they cost(€1000) it would be better spent on improving the uniforms

cushtac

shakin wrote: »

i think cs and asps are enough the tasers cost too much for the use they would get and as previously said can be fatal. for the money they cost(€1000) it would be better spent on improving the uniforms

The Taser is no more lethal than a baton or spray, both of which can kill, and a Taser wouldn't cost €1000 if bought in bulk.

shakin

cushtac wrote: »

The Taser is no more lethal than a baton or spray, both of which can kill, and a Taser wouldn't cost €1000 if bought in bulk.

no more lethal! in fairness 50000volts compared to cs spray! i know what id pick. and they would still cost near €1000. no need anyway!

cushtac

shakin wrote: »

no more lethal! in fairness 50000volts compared to cs spray!

People die from exposure to OC and CS too, and everyone is allergic to being hit with a baton. Look at the research into Taser useage, when properly used it is no more likely to result in death than other methods.

shakin wrote: »

i know what id pick. and they would still cost near €1000. no need anyway!

You've no way of knowing what the unit cost would be in a bulk order.

Traumadoc

CLADA wrote: »

If you have serious concerns and are interested in some research I would suggest you look further than the national newspapers. There are numerus independent medical studies which are easily accessible on the internet.

As Jonanderton has pointed out they are primarily issued in UK and Ireland to specialist firearms teams and are classed as firearms.
The ERU have them as part of their "less than lethal" capability and are used to prevent a situation escalating to the point where lethal force may have to be used.

Due to the fact that they are classed as a firearm their use is governed by strict guidelines, so issuing this device across the force is unlikely to be considered.

I'm not sure about the "innocent people may be killed" comment.
Are you concerned about the dangers of the device or do you not trust the ERU to use it according to guidelines.

Yes there are many papers that have concerns about the use of tasers, I have no problem with the ERU using it according to guidelines, I would be more concerned about it being a general devise used on the street to subdue acutely psychotic patients.


Strote J, Range Hutson H.
Division of Emergency Medicine, Department of Medicine, University of Washington Medical Center, Seattle, WA 98195, USA. strote@u.washington.edu

OBJECTIVE: The Taser is an electric weapon capable of releasing significant amounts of electricity in rapid pulses, causing uncontrollable muscle contraction. Use of this weapon has dramatically increased over the past decade, and it is now commonly used by law enforcement officers nationwide. Emergency medical services providers are, likewise, seeing more patients who have recently been subjected to application of a Taser. We examined the autopsy reports of patients who died after application of a Taser in an attempt to identify high-risk interactions. METHODS: This is a case series of Taser-related deaths. Fatalities occurring over four years beginning in January 2001 were identified through an Internet search, and autopsy reports were requested. Reports were analyzed for patient demographics, preexisting cardiac disease, toxicology, evidence of excited delirium, restraint techniques used, and listed cause of death. RESULTS: Of 75 cases identified, 37 (49.3%) had autopsy reports available for review. All cases involved men, with ages ranging from 18 to 50 years. Cardiovascular disease was found in 54.1%. Illegal substance use was found on toxicology screening for 78.4%; within that group, 86.2% were found to have been using stimulants. A diagnosis of excited delirium was given for 75.7% of the cases. Use of a Taser was considered a potential or contributory cause of death in 27%. CONCLUSIONS: This is the largest review of Taser-related fatalities reported in the medical literature. The findings are consistent with prior studies, suggesting a high frequency of restraint-related and excited delirium-related fatalities.

CLADA

Traumadoc wrote: »

Yes there are many papers that have concerns about the use of tasers, I have no problem with the ERU using it according to guidelines, I would be more concerned about it being a general devise used on the street to subdue acutely psychotic patients.

I think Oleoresin Capsicum (OC spray) will more than likely be on general issue to the Gardai in the near future and not Taser.

In relation to the acutely psychotic patients, well that depends on the circumstances and their actions. If a person suffering from a mental illness is on the street in possession of a bladed weapon threatening others, then taser is far more preferable to a conventional firearm.

Just to clear up this 50,000 volts issue, voltage is not the killer in electricity, the current or amperage is. The amperage in this device is insignificant, the voltage is used in Taser to carry the technology to the subject.
The technology is a pulse that hits the subject 19 times a second and overides the central nervous system causing neuromuscular incapacitation.

deadwood

These are all useful when used properly. Why is it though, that people say "..well, of course the ERU should have them, but not regular guards.." or something along those lines. In the vast majority of cases, an unarmed, uniformed guard will be the first to any incident. Be it a drunk man with a bottle and/or attitude or a firearms related incident. The culture in the gardai is to look upon the "just an ordinary" (I'm sick of that phrase) guard as the poor relation when, in fact, he or she is the first person at most scenes, the last person at every scene and the one who is most likely to meet confrontation on a day-to-day basis. Specialist units are necessary and are the best people to deal with certain situations (one there for our northern friends!). However, they are Support services. The "front Line" are the regular, uniform people who are the most poorly resourced, trained and equipped.:mad::mad::mad: Still, though, while the right attitude always goes a lot further than any taser, it'd be nice to be able to give it a reassuring tap when you're heading out on the beat on a Saturday night!

The Artist

cushtac wrote: »

The Taser is no more lethal than a baton or spray, both of which can kill, and a Taser wouldn't cost €1000 if bought in bulk.

i know that cs spray can be brought for a packet of three for €2 .It would be cheaper than tazers!

The Artist

CLADA wrote: »

I think Oleoresin Capsicum (OC spray) will more than likely be on general issue to the Gardai in the near future and not Taser.

In relation to the acutely psychotic patients, well that depends on the circumstances and their actions. If a person suffering from a mental illness is on the street in possession of a bladed weapon threatening others, then taser is far more preferable to a conventional firearm.

Just to clear up this 50,000 volts issue, voltage is not the killer in electricity, the current or amperage is. The amperage in this device is insignificant, the voltage is used in Taser to carry the technology to the subject.
The technology is a pulse that hits the subject 19 times a second and overides the central nervous system causing neuromuscular incapacitation.

Imo would kill someone with a ticker?

deadwood

davey180 wrote: »

i know that cs spray can be brought for a packet of three for €2 .It would be cheaper than tazers!

Get yizzer taaaasers heeor. tereee fer a euroo love. give one to yer mammy ye scumbaag ye. last o' de cheeeeeky chaaaarleees

The Artist

deadwood wrote: »

Get yizzer taaaasers heeor. tereee fer a euroo love. give one to yer mammy ye scumbaag ye. last o' de cheeeeeky chaaaarleees

what in the name of god are ye saying!

The Artist

deadwood wrote: »

Get yizzer taaaasers heeor. tereee fer a euroo love. give one to yer mammy ye scumbaag ye. last o' de cheeeeeky chaaaarleees

noted,reported:D

deadwood

:DOh don't be so sensitive. It's just that "3 for €" sounds like a Moore St. sales pitch. I guess my written version doesn'y read very well. What's this reorted and noted lark?

shakin

cushtac wrote: »

People die from exposure to OC and CS too, and everyone is allergic to being hit with a baton. Look at the research into Taser useage, when properly used it is no more likely to result in death than other methods.



You've no way of knowing what the unit cost would be in a bulk order.

okm but it would still be much more expensive than cs spray. and the tasers are more lethal. yes the baton if not used properly can be fatal but if used in a safe manner i.e. not smacking someone across the head. the cs gas incapacitates but the taser can affect underlying problems e.g. hear problems even ones not known to the person so it should be used as a last resort, and anyway cant the baton and cs gas can be used as effectively?