Canadian Seal Hunters Killed

Demonique

It was on the news, the vessel they were in capsized

golden

Some people say an eye for an eye.

Lauragoesmad

Hopefuly it might make people think twice about going on the hunt next year.
Some of the footage was so disturbing! Poor little seals! The seals are supposed to be dead before entering the boat but Sky News showed footage yesterday of a seal still moving and trying to get away as two men were carrying them up the gang plank.
If they really need to cull them that badly, I don't understand why they can't do it a tad more humanely.

mikemac

Demonique wrote: »

It was on the news, the vessel they were in capsized

I'm rarely in the forum but this is kinda lazy imo, you could provided a link and not a one line commentary.
I've done it for you

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

Hopefuly it might make people think twice about going on the hunt next year.

They were being towed by the Coast Guard which means it's very hard to see what the crew did wrong. It's a marine accident, nothing more or nothing less, it couldn't have been predicted.
They are sailors and being helped by the Coast Guard and you think they should have thought twice about this? In theory, they would be in saftest situation possible with the Coast Guard right next to them.

They were on their way back to port and not on their way to the hunt.
In fact, they never even made it to the seals but golden reckons some people think they deserve to drown in freezing water?


http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23454725-38198,00.html

The annual Canadian seal hunt has been marred by a boat accident in the ice-covered Gulf of St Lawrence that killed three of the boat's crew and left another missing.

Of the six people aboard the Acadien, "three deceased members of the crew were recovered from the water'' north of Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, a spokesman for the Canadian coast guard said.

"The fourth member remains missing,'' while two other men were rescued by a nearby fishing vessel, he said.

The 12m trawler carrying seal hunters from the Magdalen islands capsized before dawn on Saturday (Canadian time) off Canada's east coast, fisheries department spokesman Michel Plamondon said.

The boat flipped over while it was being towed back to port by the coast guard after encountering steering problems, according to local television reports.

The boat was on its way to the seal herds when it lost a rudder, prompting an SOS appeal to the coast guard.

An investigation of the accident was to be launched by Canada's transport ministry, which said the Acadien had passed inspection at the beginning of the week.

The last such tragedy to hit the Magdalen islands, an isolated archipelago in Quebec province with some 15,000 inhabitants in winter, was in 1990 when a boat overturned during the fishing season, killing eight people.

Canada's annual harvest of harp seals kicked off on Friday, with several boats setting off from this tiny town for the seal herds.

Mr Plamondon said the close-knit sealers were devastated by news of the accident.

"Yesterday, there were 16 boats (that set off on the sea hunt), but today, because of the accident, most of them have decided to return to the Magdalen islands,'' he said.

Only three or four boats remained at sea to pursue the hunt, with weather conditions expected to remain treacherous for the next two days, he said.

Several boats have been caught in ice up to 70cm thick on the gulf this year, and the seal hunt started slowly on Friday as a result.

One vessel was forced to return to port Friday after being slammed by huge chunks of ice.

Hunters routinely face shifting ice, high winds, freezing temperatures and unpredictable seas during the controversial sea hunt, which is often protested by animal rights groups.

Canada set the limit for this year's harvest at 275,000 harp seals, 5000 more than the previous year.

Some 800 seals were killed on Friday, Mr Plamondon said.

Lauragoesmad

micmclo wrote: »

They were on their way back to port and not on their way to the hunt.
In fact, they never even made it to the seals but golden reckons some people think they deserve to drown in freezing water?

Just because they didn't get there doesn't mean they weren't going to slaughter a load of seals. I feel very sorry for the families of these men but find it hard to feel sorry for the men themselves as I think people who can do such horrific things to an animal are messed up in the head and need help. They would have clubbed many seals if they had have gotten there. I'm not trying to offend anyone but thats how I feel about the situation.

Latchy

Canadian seal killers and Japenese whale/dolphin killers .I hate them :mad:

doctor evil

Thats a sad accident. To be honest if seals looked like rats there wouldn't be all this fuss about them. Rat poison would be a much worse death.

d-redser

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

Hopefuly it might make people think twice about going on the hunt next year.
Some of the footage was so disturbing! Poor little seals! The seals are supposed to be dead before entering the boat but Sky News showed footage yesterday of a seal still moving and trying to get away as two men were carrying them up the gang plank.
If they really need to cull them that badly, I don't understand why they can't do it a tad more humanely.

I have to agree, why go out of their way to cull these animals with brute force when there are so many more options available???

I am quite surprised this is still legal... :mad:

NoNameRanger

d-redser wrote: »

I have to agree, why go out of their way to cull these animals with brute force when there are so many more options available???

I am quite surprised this is still legal... :mad:

What are all these options they have? These people are from very remote areas and depend on these culls for a living, who are we to judge them and their way of life. We slaughter cattle, sheep, pigs and chickens everyday of the week and nobody bats an eyelid, animals are reared in far from ideal conditions. How would Irish farmers feel if they were being picked on in this way and told they had to stop farming cattle because another culture consider them sacred. They are hunting and harvesting this animal in a sustainable way, it's not being threatened with extinction from these culls, in my opinion this has far less impact on the environment than any of our farming methods.

As for anybody that thinks those men got what they deserved, do you feel the same way about your local farmer and butcher? Thats a very sick view!:(

People should at least understand what its all about and make a considered view and not simply believe the propaganda that we are fed by the media.
For anybody interested in reading about it here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_hunting

golden

It is really the way that the harp seals are bludgened to death as opposed to be shot. The lifestyle of the inuits are changing ie they are using snowmobiles to get to a to b and not sledges so the way of life is changing in someways.

NoNameRanger

golden wrote: »

It is really the way that the harp seals are bludgened to death as opposed to be shot. The lifestyle of the inuits are changing ie they are using snowmobiles to get to a to b and not sledges so the way of life is changing in someways.

Yeah and we're all driving around in 4x4's on motorways and city streets instead of the horses and carts we used to use. Apparently the hakapiks deliver as swift a death as abbatoir conditions when used correctly, it looks gruesome alright, but by law they have to continue swinging until the skull is completely crushed. Guns may look less dramatic but don't always gurantee as swift a kill, a second swing will come alot quicker than a second shot from a bolt action rifle if it was needed. And i guess there is a risk to the hunters of ricochet bullets from the hard ice.

kerrysgold

Karma.

rosyposy

kerrysgold wrote: »

Karma.

karma as regards what? bullets ricocheting off the ice?

so what exactly is your argument?:rolleyes:

peasant

In my opinion, anyone that calls themselves an "animal lover" and at the same time gloats at the death of fellow humans has their head not screwed on quite right.

You either have respect all life (even that of fellow humans you don't like) or none at all.

Weighting one life over the other is just hypocrisy (and makes your so called "love" for animals very hard to believe).

My condolences to the surviving families.

arybvtcw0eolkf

golden wrote: »

It is really the way that the harp seals are bludgened to death as opposed to be shot.

Have you ever seen how we slaughter our animals?..

I worked in a slaughter house for two years killing sheep and cattle, and let me tell you the conditions were far from ideal for the animals being killed.

Ever see a sheep being killed here.

We hung them up by their hind legs, gave it a quick electrical shock and slit its throat and it bled to death. But guys said that the sheep could sense its faith before entering the slaughter house. So the next time your chomping into some nice lamb chops, well

So don't gloat at the deaths of these guys.

Now, having said that. I think the killing of whales of seals is barbaric, but it would be extremly arrogant of me to tell these people to cease with their livihood because times are changing!.

Overheal

Demonique wrote: »

It was on the news, the vessel they were in capsized

was it capsized? Are you sure the seals didn't tip it over?

Nerin

dun dun...
dun dun...
dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun da ah daaaah

ahem.
i doubt it overheal.
the seals made me cover it is them it issss oh shi.....

AckwelFoley

Lmao ^

Duncan1519

Good !

tallus

The reason they don't shoot the seals is because it would ruin the fur.

Sherifu

Duncan1519 wrote: »

Good !

:facepalm:

Lauragoesmad

Mairt wrote: »

Have you ever seen how we slaughter our animals?..

I worked in a slaughter house for two years killing sheep and cattle, and let me tell you the conditions were far from ideal for the animals being killed.

Ever see a sheep being killed here.

We hung them up by their hind legs, gave it a quick electrical shock and slit its throat and it bled to death. But guys said that the sheep could sense its faith before entering the slaughter house. So the next time your chomping into some nice lamb chops, well

So don't gloat at the deaths of these guys.

Now, having said that. I think the killing of whales of seals is barbaric, but it would be extremly arrogant of me to tell these people to cease with their livihood because times are changing!.

I don't eat anything with a face or a mammy so I won't be tucking into any lamb chops. Most animals in the western world aren't farmed, they are processed. The reason that animals have such a crappy standard of life is because people are too cheap to pay a decent price for meat which is mainly the likes of the big supermarkets faults! As an animal lover(I'm assuming you are as you are in this forum), are you not tormented by the animals that you slaughtered? Although I must admit I have more respect for meat eaters who can actually kill what they eat then the ones that ignore the whole process of where meat comes from and pretend burgers grow in a packet on the beef tree!!
One of the problems I have with the seal cull is that they are so defenseless and although clubbing if correctly performed is quick (although not quick enough IMO), the majority of the footage I saw in the last few days had seals still moving while being carried on the clubs and this was after up to 5 blows. I know the media are probably showing the most gorey footage but the fact remains that it is not guaranteed to be painless and I think it is unacceptable to kill any animal in such a way. Imagine all the tears and snots if it happened to someones dog? We wouldn't hear the end of it for years! As far as I'm concerned a dog and a seal and a person for that matter probably feel the same amount of fear and pain.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

are you not tormented by the animals that you slaughtered? .

Nope.

I hunt too, although I'll admit that in the last few year's I have questioned why I continue to hunt, in fact recently I've considered selling my firearms as I now feel uncomfortable killing animals.

But I'm a meat eater, I love the stuff. So what I kill I eat and I kill it to eat it.

kerrysgold

peasant wrote: »

In my opinion, anyone that calls themselves an "animal lover" and at the same time gloats at the death of fellow humans has their head not screwed on quite right.

You either have respect all life (even that of fellow humans you don't like) or none at all.

Weighting one life over the other is just hypocrisy (and makes your so called "love" for animals very hard to believe).

My condolences to the surviving families.

They have no respect for animals, they have no qualms at all about murdering a defenceless baby, so no, I'd personally be quite happy if they all dropped dead, although that's a bit too humane to be good payback for what they've done. same applies to anyone else that has been cruel to animals or killed an animal in my book. (obviously vets are an exception if they pts an animal to stop it suffering)

Whispered

kerrysgold wrote: »

I'd personally be quite happy if they all dropped dead, ..... same applies to anyone else that has been cruel to animals or killed an animal in my book.

I really admire your passion but that is a bit niave tbh. What about rats? Would you happily have them live in your house? Magpies who are a very real threat to smaller species of Irish birds? What about rabbits who were riddled with mixo and spreading it to other, healthy rabbits? Sometimes it is necessary in the real world to handle these things with death. I personally couldn't do it, but I have respect for the people who do it humanely and for the right reasons.

That being said, I agree that the seal cull is disgusting. I understand that some of it is rooted in tradition and is part of the inuit culture - but are they all inuits? Nope, some people do it for the sport. And how on earth can a bullet wound to the head do more damage than blow after blow? I fully understand the need to cull some animals, I just think it could be done in a more humane way.

I feel for the families of those men. Nobody deserves to loose their father, brother,son.

siouxie sue

Those feckers got what they deserved, i hope they had a slow cold death! :mad:

Lauragoesmad

Mairt wrote: »

Nope.

I hunt too, although I'll admit that in the last few year's I have questioned why I continue to hunt, in fact recently I've considered selling my firearms as I now feel uncomfortable killing animals.

But I'm a meat eater, I love the stuff. So what I kill I eat and I kill it to eat it.

Do you have any pets? What would you do if someone shot one of them?

Whispered

Firstly to use karma as an excuse to feel happy about the death of anybody is, frankly, insulting. Karma is part of a spiritual belief and is based on you repenting for what you do, not dying "a cold slow death" and even if your twisted version of karma is true - what did those mens wives and children do to deserve the "karma" of loosing a family member and having insensitive feckers all over the world gloating about it?

As for peta - I don't think you'll find many people have a lot of respect for their tactics. Enough said about that.

I cannot believe how people can claim to love ANYTHING and gloat over the death of someone. I am disgusted at some posts here and I really hope you never experience something like it.

Arcadian

I have the families of these poor men in my thoughts, it must be a hard enough time for them without people implying that their sons/fathers/partners got no less than they deserved.

franksm

It's difficult to feel pity for fur-farmers, same as when a joyrider wraps himself around a lamp-post.

tallus

I have to say that I disagree with the way they kill the baby seals, but I'm surprised at how many people seem to think it's ok for these people to die, and in saying that, I'm not saying I agree with the killing of baby seals because I don't agree with it.

Lauragoesmad

helena.ryan wrote: »

Firstly to use karma as an excuse to feel happy about the death of anybody is, frankly, insulting. Karma is part of a spiritual belief and is based on you repenting for what you do, not dying "a cold slow death" and even if your twisted version of karma is true - what did those mens wives and children do to deserve the "karma" of loosing a family member and having insensitive feckers all over the world gloating about it?

As for peta - I don't think you'll find many people have a lot of respect for their tactics. Enough said about that.

I cannot believe how people can claim to love ANYTHING and gloat over the death of someone. I am disgusted at some posts here and I really hope you never experience something like it.

I feel very sorry for the families of these men but not so much for the men themselves. I'm just saying the bad weather this time of year and this accident will probably make some people think twice about going on the hunt next year.

Whats wrong with peta? I think they do great work and although they might use shock tactics, what charities don't? Trocaire have the swolen bellied starving children on their ads with the sad music, telling you how brilliant it will feel to give 7 euros a week to help feed a starving child.
Peta inform people about the plight of animals all over the world and even though some of their articles and undercover videos are graphic and disturbing, they are just showing people what happens.

Some people are for people, some people are for animals some people are for both. Just because some people love animals it doesn't mean they have the same compassion for people.
i know people who do loads of charity work for people but wouldn't give a sh*t if a dog got killed on front of them. Are you going to say they don't care about people because they don't care about animals?:rolleyes:

Burnt Toast

siouxie sue wrote: »

Those feckers got what they deserved, i hope they had a slow cold death! :mad:

Mod edit: Insult deleted.

Whispered

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

Whats wrong with peta? I think they do great work and although they might use shock tactics, what charities don't? Trocaire have the swolen bellied starving children on their ads with the sad music, telling you how brilliant it will feel to give 7 euros a week to help feed a starving child.
Peta inform people about the plight of animals all over the world and even though some of their articles and undercover videos are graphic and disturbing, they are just showing people what happens.

I think petas information should be shared, but in an appropiate way. Some of the things they show are too disturbing to be released to the general public, never mind plastered all over the place. If some of the things they show on busy streets, there for kids and all to see, were shown on TV without a graphic warning, there would be uproar, and rightly so. Organisations like ANVIL who are looking for legal rights for animals do a better job in my opinion.

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

Some people are for people, some people are for animals some people are for both. Just because some people love animals it doesn't mean they have the same compassion for people.

what has been said here by some posters is not simply a lack of compassion, it is an all out gloating about the death of people. Gloating - I am glad they are dead - that not lack of compassion.

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

i know people who do loads of charity work for people but wouldn't give a sh*t if a dog got killed on front of them. Are you going to say they don't care about people because they don't care about animals?:rolleyes:

If they gloated over it and said things like - I hope that dog had a slow painful death - or spouted on about how it's karma etc then yes I would think they are sick people. Woudn't you?

jameshayes

There are several points people need to look at here.

-The seal they were culling were not endangered, if they were there would be no culling by the canadian govt.

-As said above, the 'cuteness' of an animal should not decide if it's bad to kill them, i'm sure most of you have killed a spider, fly, mouse or rat in your time..

-Again, as said above, we kill animals everyday - I bet the chickens in battery farms wish they were slaughtered.

-People need to grow up, Men/husbands/brothers/fathers were killed just trying to make a living. I'm sure they dont endanger their life for the fun.

Run_to_da_hills

These guys took on a high risk job that got very well rewarded. They, their families and relatives knew what was instore in regard to the dangers of this occupation just like those that go long lining or deep sea crab fishing. Unfortunitally nature caught up on them and they paid the price.

Lauragoesmad

helena.ryan wrote: »

I think petas information should be shared, but in an appropiate way. Some of the things they show are too disturbing to be released to the general public, never mind plastered all over the place. If some of the things they show on busy streets, there for kids and all to see, were shown on TV without a graphic warning, there would be uproar, and rightly so. Organisations like ANVIL who are looking for legal rights for animals do a better job in my opinion.

I do think anvil do an excellent job aswell but I think peta get through to more people then anvil do.

helena.ryan wrote: »

what has been said here by some posters is not simply a lack of compassion, it is an all out gloating about the death of people. Gloating - I am glad they are dead - that not lack of compassion.

You have to understand how sick this practice makes some people feel. I actually felt sick all week over this hunt. Anytime it would pop into my head that it was happening or I saw an article, I felt so sad that as a clever species we can be so cruel and heartless. People say crazy things out of anger and surely you can understand that. There must be something that gets on your wick enough for you to say something like this. For me it would be the people who skin cats and dogs alive for fur. I wouldn't trust myself to be in the same room with them.

helena.ryan wrote: »

If they gloated over it and said things like - I hope that dog had a slow painful death - or spouted on about how it's karma etc then yes I would think they are sick people. Woudn't you?

An animal does not have a conscience like people do so its not the same comparison. People could feel that way if an animal actually killed kids on purpose or peoples pets. Animals kill to eat and because its their nature, not for sport.These men knowingly went out to kill baby seals by smashing their heads in with sharp sticks.

There was a warning given out about the weather in Newfoundland about the extreme weather this year that was ignored by most of the hunters until this accident happened.

Whispered

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

An animal does not have a conscience like people do so its not the same comparison. People could feel that way if an animal actually killed kids on purpose or peoples pets. Animals kill to eat and because its their nature, not for sport.These men knowingly went out to kill baby seals by smashing their heads in with sharp sticks.

Laura, I'm sorry but what you said (quoted) bears very little relevance to what I was talking about? I said that its for sport, I said I disagree with it and I also said that if people were to laugh and be happy over a dog being kicked to death - in the way some posters here have been about those men, then I would think they were sick people. I didn't mention the conscience of animals v's humans once. You don't have to agree with seal culling to disagree with how people are reacting to the death of these men.

There are many things that make me angry. However, I would never say that I am glad someone has died. Never. I don't think there is any excuse to wish death on someone.

Lauragoesmad

helena.ryan wrote: »

Laura, I'm sorry but what you said (quoted) bears no relevance to what I was talking about? I said that its for sport, I said I disagree and I also said that if people were to laugh and be happy over an dog being kicked to death - in the way some posters here have been about those men, then I would think they were sick people. I didn't mention the conscience of animals v's humans once. You don't have to agree with seal culling to disagree with how people are reacting to the death of these men. I have seen posts from you here so I know you are not just trying to just come up with things to argue about. Did you misread?

There are many things that make me angry. However, I would never say that I am glad someone has died. Never. I don't think there is any excuse to wish death on someone.

I'm saying it would be foolish for a person to wish death upon an animal due to something they have done as an animal will not do something out of cruelty or badness. (As people sometimes do.) I probably should have phrased that better.

I feel extremely sorry for the families of these men but under no circumstances will I lose any sleep over the deaths of them. Although I wouldn't wish death upon them, I can understand how some people do.

Trojan911

Demonique wrote: »

It was on the news, the vessel they were in capsized

My condolences to the families. A tragic loss of human life.

Whispered

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

I'm saying it would be foolish for a person to wish death upon an animal due to something they have done as an animal will not do something out of cruelty or badness. (As people sometimes do.) I probably should have phrased that better.

I feel extremely sorry for the families of these men but under no circumstances will I lose any sleep over the deaths of them. Although I wouldn't wish death upon them, I can understand how some people do.

I see what you mean - but then I think it's foolish to wish death on someone - not for them, but for the families they left behind. It's hard enough to loose a family member without half the world being glad about it. I feel the same way about not loosing sleep over the men, but then again, did you loose sleep over those 5 people killed in a plane crash in Englad, or any of the other deaths in the world this weekend? I hate to say I didn't, in fact I was more upset about the seals to be honest. But to see people saying such cruel things is sickening to me. And not at all necessary.

Lauragoesmad

helena.ryan wrote: »

I see what you mean - but then I think it's foolish to wish death on someone - not for them, but for the families they left behind. It's hard enough to loose a family member without half the world being glad about it. I feel the same way about not loosing sleep over the men, but then again, did you loose sleep over those 5 people killed in a plane crash in Englad, or any of the other deaths in the world this weekend? I hate to say I didn't, in fact I was more upset about the seals to be honest. But to see people saying such cruel things is sickening to me. And not at all necessary.

When I heard about that plane crash, I did think to myself "God help those poor people!" I definitely felt sorry for them. Not so much for the hunters though. I hate to hear of anyone dying but when it comes to people who could be so cruel, I wouldn't waste my energy. I don't mean to sound callous but there are plenty more people in the world who deserve sympathy more than those men IMO.
The only way I could kill an animal would be to protect my own or to put one out of its misery if it was injured and both of those situations would probably have me a massive therapy bill afterwards,

Whispered

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

When I heard about that plane crash, I did think to myself "God help those poor people!" I definitely felt sorry for them. Not so much for the hunters though. I hate to hear of anyone dying but when it comes to people who could be so cruel, I wouldn't waste my energy. I don't mean to sound callous but there are plenty more people in the world who deserve sympathy more than those men IMO.
The only way I could kill an animal would be to protect my own or to put one out of its misery if it was injured and both of those situations would probably have me a massive therapy bill afterwards,

I think there is really only a small difference in how we're thinking. Definately people who deserve more sympathy - and I'm one of the people who wont get too upset about their deaths - it's the people who are glad about it that annoy me.

As for the therapy - I can relate to that! But thats a seperate story.

rosyposy

kerrysgold wrote: »

They have no respect for animals, they have no qualms at all about murdering a defenceless baby, so no, I'd personally be quite happy if they all dropped dead, although that's a bit too humane to be good payback for what they've done. same applies to anyone else that has been cruel to animals or killed an animal in my book. (obviously vets are an exception if they pts an animal to stop it suffering)

I appreciate passion, it gets things done. But by talking like this you have done nothing to better your cause. Half the battle is to earn respect and integrity, so that people will actually listen to what you have to say.

You have shown here you have no idea how to put yourself across in a professional and sound manner. You would be completely struck from a debate if u spoke like this, if u want to seriously protect the welfare of animals, maturity is needed....big time

Halfdog

If these guys wanted to cull seals in a more humane manner they should find out where they breed and remove their eggs before they hatch. Nothing worse than seeing live baby seals being hacked to death.

Feral Mutant

Halfdog wrote: »

If these guys wanted to cull seals in a more humane manner they should find out where they breed and remove their eggs before they hatch. Nothing worse than seeing live baby seals being hacked to death.

Seal eggs?

Sherifu

Feral Mutant wrote: »

Seal eggs?

Purple unicorns.

siouxie sue

Burnt Toast i'm not a retard! I'm not physically or mentally disabled! You could be offending people who actually have handicapped family members. A retard i'm not.

togster

Halfdog wrote: »

breed and remove their eggs before they hatch.

LOL

anyone who suggests that these people deserved to die need to re-evaluate themselves. Karma? grow up.

togster

siouxie sue wrote: »

Burnt Toast i'm not a retard! I'm not physically or mentally disabled! You could be offending people who actually have handicapped family members. A retard i'm not.

I wouln't call you a retard but what you said really beggers belief. I don't want to argue with anyone but i would like to know how people end up with the mentality that these people deserve to die. You said you hoped they suffered while they died. Can you not see the hypocrisy in your argument? It's quite shocking really that people who proclaim to love animals also rejoice in the death of some sailors. Can you not see how hypocritical that is? I would love to know what happened in peoples lifes to make them feel this way. Bizzare and quite sad in all honesty.

AckwelFoley

I am absolutely disgusted by anyone that suggests that their death is some how deserved

Your opinion is both hypocritical and maladjusted.
I personally dont like to see anyanimal killed unnecessarly but most people here that decide to have an opinion on this subject dont have the full facts of the situation, and dont have to live in the area these people do, so its east to make a judgment.

Your attitude is Absolutelty disgusting and you should frankley be ashamed of yourselves.

Im not going to post in this thread again because my faith in common sence and credible intelligence within humanity is fast diminshing.