Cyclone kills...

Mickk

In the latest bit of media bull**** there is a big front page article in the Sunday Tribune on Cyclone and bodybuilding supplements. Apparently the head of the IMB has said that cyclone contains an anabolic steroid (Beta-ecdysterone) that has side effects that could be fatal!!!

I really think they are very wrong and the list of banned products for Ireland is here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/si/0540.html

It is not on that list, trib and vit b-12 which has been in the media of late are on it but Beta-ecdysterone or any derivatives I know of are not. As a precautionary measure I am going to stop selling this until I can get clarification from the medicines board as to its legality.

crotalus667

Mickk wrote: »

Apparently the head of the IMB has said that cyclone contains an anabolic steroid .

I rely cant see that being true , let's face it if it contained any thing that was considered an anabolic steroid it would fly off the shelves faster than any other product , some media guy/gurl must of gotten a wire crossed (or just gone for a big headline:mad:)

Mickk wrote: »

. As a precautionary measure I am going to stop selling this until I can get clarification from the medicines board as to its legality.

Better safe than sorry , any way im sure the guys at maxi will be quick to sort this out given the size of the company ,it will be intresting to see what that big chain store does :pac:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ignorance kills quicker.

crotalus667

Mairt wrote: »

Ignorance kills quicker.

I went out and got hold of the paper and I have to say the journalist that wrote it is not going to be wining any awards it read like a bad school paper article:rolleyes: and it mainly focused on rugby playing school boys that didn’t bother to look into what they where taking :mad: any way im going to throw that paper in the trash and go read the new MD

JayRoc

Sadly, I've been in a grump about this ever since I saw it (even texted g'em to make sure she read the paper I saw in her sitting room). I had held the Tribune up as the last bastion of journalistic integrity or something, since the Irish Times' ill-chosen article on creatine. Something which prompted me to do something unprecedented (ie. stop ****ing moaning and actually contact the people who were saying things to piss me off- and in fairness they did print my letter the next week).

g'em

I still haven't read it. I'm having too much of a fun weekend eating leftover pancakes and watching Rocky V to have it interrupted by the sh*te I saw when I glanced at the article after you txted me.

MaxiMuscle Sale are going to soar though...

WHIP IT!

g'em wrote: »

I still haven't read it. I'm having too much of a fun weekend eating leftover pancakes and watching Rocky V to have it interrupted by the sh*te I saw when I glanced at the article after you txted me.

MaxiMuscle Sale are going to soar though...

How can you have fun watching Rocky V G'em G'ems?? It's cat malojan! :pac:

g'em

WHIP IT! wrote: »

How can you have fun watching Rocky V G'em G'ems?? It's cat malojan! :pac:

I know but in my defense it's either that or Three Men and a Baby. 100+ satellite channels and still nothing to watch. It's a waste of a 42" TV tbh.

I'm now tossing up Smokin' Aces vs Amercian History X vs Aliens vs War of the Worlds for the DVD player... choices, choices...

mikeruurds

Isn't ecdysterone a plant sterol? AFAIK it's definitely not a steroid.

Edit: confirmed... it's a feckin herbal extract. Just marketing hype.

JayRoc

mikeruurds wrote: »

Isn't ecdysterone a plant sterol? AFAIK it's definitely not a steroid.

Edit: confirmed... it's a feckin herbal extract. Just marketing hype.

Nope. In a major newspaper it's much, much worse.

Sangre

Of course cyclone kills. It can have speeds up to 110mph.

Lockstep

g'em wrote: »

I know but in my defense it's either that or Three Men and a Baby. 100+ satellite channels and still nothing to watch. It's a waste of a 42" TV tbh.

I'm now tossing up Smokin' Aces vs Amercian History X vs Aliens vs War of the Worlds for the DVD player... choices, choices...

My advice:

American History X.


Great movie.

WHIP IT!

kickoutthejams wrote: »

My advice:

American History X.


Great movie.

I'd go for Aliens..... and I'd open the door and frisbee Smokin Aces at the first traffic warden I see while I'm at it...

crotalus667

People people please ,
now g'em what about a good book

g'em

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I'd go for Aliens..... and I'd open the door and frisbee Smokin Aces at the first traffic warden I see while I'm at it...

ROFL Ok, so it isn't the best movie in the world but Ryan Reynolds looks hawt in it.

crotalus667 wrote: »

People people please ,
now g'em what about a good book

I know, I know, this has gone completely OT, but I'm just so sick and tired of all the skewed media reports of supplements and their legality. I'll have a read of it over breakfast and see what the dealio is and maybe I can actually give an informed opinion on the article then.

Oh and I've just finished reading "The Princess Bride". Fantastic and highly recommended!

crotalus667

g'em wrote: »

I'll have a read of it over breakfast and see what the dealio is and maybe I can actually give an informed opinion on the article then.
!

Please dont ruin your breakfast it's not worth it :rolleyes:

g'em wrote: »

Oh and I've just finished reading "The Princess Bride". Fantastic and highly recommended!

I cant say that i have read it, who wrote it??, wasn’t it made into a film ???

Ps
im just a third of the way threw the first in Pullmans trilogy so far I can highly recommend it , From what I hear the film left huge chunks of the book out :rolleyes:

robric

WHEN 20-year-old Colin Murphy played rugby for Belvedere College . . . today facing St Mary's College in the Leinster Schools Senior Cup final . . . he claims supplement use was the norm.
"It was not unusual for students to be taking shakes and other supplements after training. Maxi Muscle Cyclone is quite popular because of the advertising, " he said.
Murphy described how a fellow student missed training because of illness and tried to bulk up quickly with creatine.
"He became very bloated, which can happen when it's not correctly taken. He probably had overloaded on the amount taken. I tried to look into it and take the stuff that was safe. Most people take stuff without second guessing it, or checking up. If they hear that people are using it, then it's usually good enough for them."
The Sunday Tribune spoke with several former rugby schools players, some from different rugby provinces, most of them now playing at under-20 college level. Many students taking supplements admit to being unconcerned about potential side-effects.
Although mild side-effects are common, some share rumours of more serious side-effects, such as severe headaches and heart palpitations, among other rugby playing students.
Mark Hurst (20) a former schools rugby player from Enniskillen, said Maxi Muscle Cyclone is probably the most common supplement in schools rugby.
"I have used it [Maxi Muscle Cyclone] sparingly for a month. It didn't really have any great effect on me and it was widely used within the school. I would say that Maxi Muscle Cyclone is used by at least 80% of rugby students who are taking supplements.
The advertising on products like Maxi Muscle Cyclone is very strong and appears in a lot of popular health magazines so I don't think potential side-effects are something students worry about."
One current schools rugby player who spoke to the Sunday Tribune asked to be identified only by his first name, Stephen. He says he began to experience heart problems while using a combination of Maxi Muscle Cyclone and another product called BSN Cell Mass. Under advice from his doctor he stopped using both products.
When questioned by the Sunday Tribune about possible long-term effects of such products he maintained it was "necessary" among his peers to bulk up. He now uses only pure protein supplements to increase muscle mass.
James Kelly was playing rugby for a Munster school when he began to experience discomfort while using Maxi Muscle Thermobol, a popular slimming product containing high levels of vitamin B12 which is not authorised for sale without prescription by the Irish Medicines Board.
"It started to speed up my heart and I became a bit concerned about this. Sometimes I had a tightening in my chest which was a bit uncomfortable. I started to realise that this probably wasn't normal and I stopped using it."
Kelly is acutely aware of the pressure within the schools rugby system. "There can be great pressure on players within schools rugby. The level of training is like that of a professional athlete and there can be a lot of pressure on schools for success so the desire is there on the part of students to get an extra edge which a supplement can offer. Rugby has become a professional game and this is something which rival sports like the GAA don't offer."

Dara Kernan (21) who has played rugby for 13 years, began to experience heart palpitations with a popular sports supplement, BSN Nitrix.
"This supplement [Nitrix] is the only supplement I've experienced any problems with, and it was only for a short while when I started taking it. I started getting heart palpitations and very short spells of dizziness to the point where I was going to almost black out.
"The palpitations were very short but were quite intense.
It did say on the bottle that some side-effects might happen."
Dara also became concerned about the number of capsules the product recommended he should take.

"I became concerned about the dosage. It says that for my body weight I should take four tablets three times a day, but after getting heart palpitations, there was no way I was going to start putting 12 tablets into my body."

Death of Jamie Quinn Jamie Quinn, like most men in their early 20s, led an active sporting life; he played soccer and GAA and was a coach at underage soccer level. He was about to start playing golf the day after he died.

On 2 October 2004, while out enjoying himself with friends at a nightclub in his local town of Edenderry, Co Offaly, Quinn collapsed on the dance floor and died after attempts to revive him failed.

The coroner's inquest last November revealed Quinn died due to asphyxia, which resulted from a combination of moderate to high alcohol levels, steroids and creatine. The level of alcohol was not considered unusual for a young man of his age.

Quinn had been using a muscle-building creatine product called Cell-Tech. His mother remembers Quinn started to feel unwell when he began taking it.

"He initially thought he had diabetes and he spoke to some people about this, but he seemed fine again a while after this. Using supplements was just something new that he had started to get into, just like other sports."

Traces of anabolic steroids were found in the postmortem analysis, giving rise to worrying concerns given what the Sunday Tribune found to be contained in supplements sold in many shops in Ireland.

Medical concerns Dr Martin Henman of the school of pharmacy at Trinity College Dublin said of the product Maxi Muscle Cyclone, which contains beta-ecdysterone, that it should be on sale by prescription only.

"Beta-ecdysterone was labelled an anabolic steroid by the Irish Medicines Board, " he said. He also said the level of vitamin B12 in Maxi Muscle Thermobol meant it should also be available only with a prescription.

Dr Conor O'Brien, former chairperson of the Irish-Anti Doping Committee and former committee member of the World Anti-doping Agency, said legislation was called for.

"We need a structure and legislation and it's a very grey area. It is now a concern with young men dropping dead as a result of sudden cardiac arrest, showing that this could be also caused by contaminated supplements as anabolic androgenic steroids which can cause direct cardiac damage. Heart muscle hypertrophy, elevation in blood pressure and interference with the normal rhythm and conductivity of the heart have been reported."

O'Brien began lecturing to schools on the issue as long as 10 years ago, but admits the problem is now growing, "While supplements may indeed improve your performance in sport, you may well be taking something that will cause long-term damage to your health, " he said.

The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) is also concerned at the use of supplements in rugby-playing schools, and recently issued guidelines to schools advising against the use of supplements such as creatine.

A Croke Park spokesperson yesterday said: "The GAA would not not encourage the use of creatine-like supplements for its players."
Speaking to the Sunday Tribune earlier this year, Brendan Buckley of the Irish Sports Council said: "There are one or two schools who have adopted good preventative policies, but these schools generally aren't the ones with the winning teams. . . I would be extremely concerned that a blind eye is being turned to this problem by the schools when in fact it is their duty to show leadership."
The facts Substances such as ephedra, once widely used in slimming products, were banned some years ago due to health concerns. This brought about a move within the billion-dollar supplements industry to replicate ephedra-like ingredients which many believe may be just as harmful.
Many of them are now using bitter orange, an ingredient common in weightloss supplements that are often marketed as 'ephedra free'. This substance is contained in concentrated form in Maxi Muscle Thermobol.
Bitter orange is a stimulant derived from a citrus fruit which contains related chemicals that, like ephedra, may raise blood pressure and disturb heart rhythms. Ephedra's active ingredient is ephedrine, while the active ingredient in bitter orange is synephrine;
both act as adrenaline-like stimulants that affect the heart and nervous system.
While synephrine is not included on the World Antidoping Agency's list of prohibited substances, which came into effect in January of this year, a spokeswoman for the Food and Drugs Administration in the US has previously said synephrine is associated with seven deaths and 85 adverse reactions.

The Sunday Tribune was unable to contact Maximuscle Ltd, manufacturers of Cyclone and Thermobol.

Internationally, concerns have been raised over the ingredients and safety of BSN products. The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) of Australia recently recalled BSN Cell Mass, along with several other products from different manufactures.

TGA, Australia's medicines regulator, labelled the supplement Cell Mass as a class-one defect . . . "potentially threatening or could cause a serious risk to health". It maintained BSN Cell Mass contained traces of coumarin, a prescription drug used to prevent blood clots. Possible side-effects associated with drugs such as coumarin can include excessive bleeding and coumarin should not be used in combination with certain medications, including antibiotics.
Reply With Quote

robric

When contacted by the Sunday Tribune to clarify its position in relation to its products sold in Ireland, BSN referred to a press release in which it stated: "BSN believes that these allegations are based upon unreliable testing methods and it intends to provide the court with independent test results which are based upon proper scientific methods."

Last year, another BSN product, No-Xplode, was taken off the shelves of a number of outlets when a concerned parent called an RTE radio programme after becoming aware that her son, a schools rugby player, had been using supplements against her wishes.

Like Maxi Muscle Thermobol, this product also contained high levels of vitamin B12, meaning it should be sold only with a doctor's prescription.

One schools rugby player speaking on the RTE report, who was not identified, claimed a large number of his rugby colleagues had been using the product. The Irish Medicines Board later visited several outlets and removed the product.

While No-Xplode was not available yesterday in supplement shops and on Irish websites, it is still available online from outside Ireland.

Creatine itself is sometimes dubbed the 'legal steroid'. It was banned in France after the French Agency for Medical Security for Food (AFASS) suggested possible links between creatine and cancer.

The agency quoted studies that showed creatine caused "digestive, muscular and cardiovascular problems".

The AFASS also stated that creatine should be regarded as "contrary to the rules, spirit, significance of sport". Creatine is also banned by the French Rugby Union. It has not been banned by the International Olympic Committee.

The World Anti-doping Agency stated: "Ecdysteroids are not considered a prohibited substance under the WADA list of prohibited substances and methods."

A SUNDAY TRIBUNE investigation today reveals that illegal anabolic steroids are openly on sale in a wide range of Irish shops despite proven links with serious health issues and death.

'Maxi-Muscle Cyclone', a product that is considered to be popular among schools rugby players, contains the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone in concentrated amounts. The Sunday Tribune found the body building product marketed as the 'all in one' creatine formula in eight stores last week.

When informed of the findings the Irish Medicines Board ordered an immediate investigation. The jars of the body building supplement, which is used to increase lean muscle size and strength, state clearly that it contains beta-ecdysterone.

"The IMB considers that the products Maxi Muscle Cyclone, Maxi Muscle Thermobole and LA Muscle Norateen Heavyweight II are considered to be medicinal products. They are not authorised by the Irish Medicines Board (IMB), " a statement said.

"The IMB can confirm that it is carrying out a number of investigations in relation to the illegal sale of products that are suspected to breach the medicinal products legislation by containing anabolic steroid substance and prescription level vitamins."

Dr Joan Gilvarry, director of the IMB, the state organisation responsible for evaluating the quality, safety and efficacy of medicines in Ireland has stated: "Beta-ecdysterone is an anabolic steroid and it carries all the risks associated with that. It can damage you liver and your heart, increases your blood count and can cause blood clots in your legs and in your lungs which could be fatal.

Absolutely should not be on sale unless it is prescribed by your doctor."

Several stores were selling Maxi-Muscle Cyclone, which contains the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone, while some were also selling the slimming product MaxiMuscle Thermobol. The slimming product (Thermbol) containing advanced levels of vitamin b12, should not be legally marketed here.

When contacted by the Sunday Tribune, some of the proprietors were unaware that the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone was a potentially fatal substance, or that it should not be sold without prescription. They were also unaware that Maxi Muscle Thermobol should not be legally marketed.

Following a thorough investigation of this industry, the Sunday Tribune confirmed that the following stores in Dublin were last week selling these illegal, and potentially harmful products:

Nutrition Connection, Capel St:

Maxi Muscle Cyclone was on sale but the Sunday Tribune was unable to contact anybody at the store for comment.

Health Matters, Grafton St: Maxi Muscle Cyclone and Maxi Muscle Thermobol were on sale. Store attendents said they were not aware of beta-ecdysterone and elevated levels of vitamin B12 in the products.

Holland and Barrett, Grafton St:

Maxi Muscle Cyclone and Maxi Muscle Thermobol on sale but the Sunday Tribune was unable to contact anybody at the store for commment.

Tony Quinn health centre, 67 Eccles St: Maxi Muscle cyclone on sale. A spokesman said he did not believe the product was illegal in Ireland as beta-ecdysterone was not prohibited under the WADA list.

The Supplement Store, Lr Camden St: Maxi-Muscle Cyclone on sale. A spokesman said he did not believe the product was illegal in Ireland as beta-ecdysterone was not prohibited under the WADA list.

Argos, St Stephen's Green: Maxi Muscle Cyclone and Maxi Muscle Thermobol on sale. The Sunday Tribune was unable to make contact with the store.

Elvery's Sports, Dawson St, Dublin 2: Maxi Muscle Cyclone on sale. A store attendant was unable to comment on the products.

The Health Store, Frascati Centre, Blackrock, Co Dublin: Maxi Muscle Cyclone on sale. A store attendant was unable to comment.

Hanley

Articles like that genuinely annoy me to the point of true anger. The ingnorance and stuidpity of the people who buy into this is outstanding.

rubadub

http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=Tribune/News/Home%20News&id=85066

Probe launched into illegal sale of 'harmful' steroids

THE Irish Medicines Board this weekend launched an inquiry into the sale of illegal anabolic steroids in Dublin stores on foot of a Sunday Tribune investigation.

On the eve of the Leinster schools senior rugby cup final at the RDS in Dublin today, a number of former schools players claimed that products like Maxi Muscle Cyclone . . . which contains the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone . . . are extremely popular in schools.

The Sunday Tribune found the potentially harmful product openly on sale in eight wellknown Dublin stores despite the fact they are considered medicinal products and are not authorised by the Irish Medicines Board.

Dr Conor O'Brien, former chairperson of the Irish Anti-doping Committee and former committee member of the World Anti-doping Agency, said: "These findings are quite serious, not just from a sports supplement viewpoint.

This is also a public health concern. Under no circumstance should anabolic steroids such as beta-ecdysterone be widely available in bodybuilding supplements, as it could have serious health consequences."

Just sells papers, its been going on for years with sensationalist stories about recreational drugs. Now you have mothers worrying more about their fit son abusing drugs on the pitch, while the other son goes down to the same pitch on saturday night with a bag of cans and a bag of dirty powder.

timetogetfit

you can't overload on creatine, the excess gets pissed out

g'em

I started to type out a reply to this but frankly it's not worth the effort. Lazy journalism like that isn't worth getting stressed over. If people want to believe the hearsay quoted from 21 year blokes then that's their problem. It's not the rugby palyers' fault either, they're only slightly less misinformed than the journalists.

If people are worried about protein supplements containing steroids they need to stop eating ricotta, crackers, bread and pasta all which often involve whey addition during manufacture.

rubadub wrote:

Now you have mothers worrying more about their fit son abusing drugs on the pitch, while the other son goes down to the same pitch on saturday night with a bag of cans and a bag of dirty powder

Exactly. A little perspective wouldn't hurt. Ironically enough in the papers' own magazine that day it was pointed out that journalists who persist in reporting about cocaine deaths and how its use is taking a stranglehold over the country really need to get a grip on themselves. In 2007 there were 14 cases of death from cocaine use. There were 170 cases of death from alcohol consumption.

And how many deaths from supplement use?

Pen1987

In fairness over-use of supplements [reletive to schools rugby] isn't going to kill you, it would be a gradual decline in health over a period of years, more a loss in quality of life than a resultant death that the reporter was stating his/her concern for.

As for the paper comparing the number of cocaine deaths to alcohol deaths - comparing the amount of deaths from cocaine to the amount of deaths from alcohol is foolish because people can afford to die from alcohol. Your average addictive personality cant afford to become addicted to cocaine because its so expensive. So they get their hands on less expensive drugs like alcohol, nicotine, and cheaper illegal drugs. But the number of deaths from cocaine is newsworthy because is has risen, and effected people in the public-eye, just comparing coke and alcohol isn't fair.

Also the demopgraphic of people who take cocaine is socially different, your average cocaine user would not have the same history of addiction in their family as say the average [overt] alcohol/heroine addict. They are more likely to be able to afford treatment/better-treatment and more likely to has a strong family support system around them.

Saying you cant overload on creatine? you can overload on anything. Excess of anything is unhealthy. Overloading on creatine might not kill you or damage you in the short term but taking hell of alot of anything in the long term is not entirely healthy.

Quick question, if you took the supplement in question regularly for six months, competed in the olympics and were drug tested, would you pass?

robric

g'em wrote: »

......
If people are worried about protein supplements containing steroids they need to stop eating ricotta, crackers, bread and pasta all which often involve whey addition during manufacture. ....

isnt there a world of difference between whey and steroids, i think a big point of the article is that the benefits and side effects of these products are not fully known, and that people are taking way to much of stuff that they dont understand instead of taking it in moderation

Malteaser!

Pen1987 wrote: »

Quick question, if you took the supplement in question regularly for six months, competed in the olympics and were drug tested, would you pass?

Well since the thing in question isn't on the IOC or WADA banned list I would guess that yes you would....

g'em

robric wrote: »

isnt there a world of difference between whey and steroids,

absolutely, that's what I was trying to point out! The scaremongering is so misinformed that it demonises products unnecessarily. Whey is equated with steroids without realising that whey is commonplace in our daily food intake.

robric wrote:

i think a big point of the article is that the benefits and side effects of these products are not fully known, and that people are taking way to much of stuff that they dont understand instead of taking it in moderation

Ah but that would be the logical and intelligent way of looking at it - there's no room for the voice of reason in the media!!!

@Pen1987 - neither creatine or beta-ecdysterone are on the WADA list iirc so taking both would allow you to pass a drug-test no probs. I take creatine pre-comp and pass drug tests no problem anyway...

robric

g'em wrote: »

absolutely, that's what I was trying to point out! The scaremongering is so misinformed that it demonises products unnecessarily. Whey is equated with steroids without realising that whey is commonplace in our daily food intake.


Ah but that would be the logical and intelligent way of looking at it - there's no room for the voice of reason in the media!!!

@Pen1987 - neither creatine or beta-ecdysterone are on the WADA list iirc so taking both would allow you to pass a drug-test no probs. I take creatine pre-comp and pass drug tests no problem anyway...

isnt creatine naturally occuring in many food stuffs anyway, like there is a high level of it in red meat so it cant be
tested for in drugs tests becuase you can take "naturally",

as much as the scaremongering is mis-informed, the products that are being sold are not giving a massive amount of information either.

what is WADA?

Malteaser!

robric wrote: »

isnt creatine naturally occuring in many food stuffs anyway, like there is a high level of it in red meat so it cant be
tested for in drugs tests becuase you can take "naturally",

as much as the scaremongering is mis-informed, the products that are being sold are not giving a massive amount of information either.

what is WADA?

It's the World Anti-Doping Agency, they're basically the watch dog on steroids in sports!!

timetogetfit

There are certain things you cant overload or overdose on .Water soluble vitamins like vitamin C will pass straight through you if you take too much but overdosing on fat soluble Vitamins like vitaman D can be toxic because they body does not excrete the excess

rubadub

I was in the health store in blackrock shopping centre today. Had a big sign up saying they do not and have never sold substances banned by the IMB, and some other stuff, might have mentioned WADA, it also mentioned a recent documentary on RTE. Dunno if anybody caught that? might still be on the site.

Then over in Holland & Barrett in the other shopping centre I was looking around and 3 lads came in, looked around 16. The woman working there was telling them she couldn't sell them certain things. She was giving good advice, they were talking amongst themselves saying "what does this do", one guy was saying protein makes you muscley. The woman said "there is no problem with protein, I can sell that, all it is is food, nothing more". They were then discussing lads who could buy it for them, or shops that might sell easier. They were looking over at me and think they were going to ask me to get it, if they had known before hand they probably would have. Usually its lads outside the offie! now it'll be lads outside the health shop "will you get us 6 tubs of creatine mister"

I would have far more concern about kids "overdosing" on food like mcdonalds & chocolate, than protein.

Hanley

Is any one else so sick and tired of this that they don't even bother trying to express their feelings on all of this...?

t-ha

Hanley wrote: »

Is any one else so sick and tired of this that they don't even bother trying to express their feelings on all of this...?

Yes, but at the same time if you let all this continue unanswered it just snow-balls. I'm firmly of the opinion that school-boys wouldn't go half as mad for any of these supplements if popular media didn't make them out to be teh ultimat3 performance enhancers, only made legal by some kind of dodgy loop-hole.

JayRoc, fair play for the letter you wrote last time the Irish Times pulled this, but the fact is that more people will read head-lines than retractions. Just the way it is.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hanley wrote: »

Articles like that genuinely annoy me to the point of true anger. The ingnorance and stuidpity of the people who buy into this is outstanding.

I'd have to disagree. I'm a journalist myself, and if I had read that in the paper myself, even I would be worried, and I have a little knowledge of supplementation. The public barely know the difference between carbs and protein, never mind vits and other chemicals. Its not the public at fault for 'buying into' this, its the journalists sensationalising isssues such as this for sheer shock value and sales.

WHIP IT!

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I'd have to disagree. I'm a journalist myself, and if I had read that in the paper myself, even I would be worried, and I have a little knowledge of supplementation. The public barely know the difference between carbs and protein, never mind vits and other chemicals. Its not the public at fault for 'buying into' this, its the journalists sensationalising isssues such as this for sheer shock value and sales.

I agree, I'm in the industry (media) myself and, personally, I think the journo in question should be embarrassed with their work... since when are 20-year-old young lads taken as an authority on anything??

How do we know the young fella in question had "heart palpatations", cos one of his mates suggested that's what it might be, maybe? For all we know, maybe he was just b*lloxed after a session and rather than accepting that he's not as fit as he thinks he is, he decides to put it down to the "demon powder"!!!

It was pathetic journalism.. I've no reason to get hot and bothered about people attacking the use of supplements, I use some myself but it wouldn't kill me if they weren't available all of a sudden - but crap, lazy, sensationalist journalism like this does nobody any favours...

Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I'd have to disagree. I'm a journalist myself, and if I had read that in the paper myself, even I would be worried, and I have a little knowledge of supplementation. The public barely know the difference between carbs and protein, never mind vits and other chemicals. Its not the public at fault for 'buying into' this, its the journalists sensationalising isssues such as this for sheer shock value and sales.

My point is that it just keeps happening again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, ad infinitum.

I could quite easily go on a rant about Cyclone contains NO steroids and how by saying it does, all the media is doing is increasing it's sales. For a start that's incredibly irresponsible. Never mind the fact that everything they're saying about it is an outright lie.

Or I could go on about how making vitamins "medicine" is just confering more control to the pharmacy's which already have the HSE so far under their thumb it doesn't bear thinking about.

Equally I could rant about how taking a 20 year old schools rugby player opinions as some how "informed" is only a step away from complete and utter idiocy. These guys have unreal dedication levels of course, and trian 5/6 sometimes more per week with lots and lots of full contact and intense drilling. But it's the cyclone that's causing their body damage of coure.

I could state that since somebody took Cyclone and had heart palpitations it must be the cause. Just like how the headache I have at the moment was caused by the M&M's I ate yesterday, ya know because it HAS to have been that.

But I see no point. All of this has been said over and over and over again on this forum in the past year. And every time it's backed up by loads of support from this forum. But the general public and "educated" media has their heads so far jammed up their fcuking ar$e's there's no point. Maybe we should feed Cyclone to the journalists and hope it does all the things they say it does. Maybe then we'll stop hearing from this corrosive influence who's only goal is to push more paper sales thru scaremongering and nothing else.

So c'mon everybody, one last time *RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!*

brianthebard

What's this stuff about high levels of B vitamins as well? Are they just looking for anything in the supplements that is of a high level? Next they'll be talking about how protein supplements have a high level of protein in them. *shock*

rubadub

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I'm a journalist myself, and if I had read that in the paper myself, even I would be worried.

I thought as a journalist you would not be too worried.

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

the journalists sensationalising isssues such as this for sheer shock value and sales.

Because of this extremely well known reason.

Whenever I would read something like that I would go check it up if I had a concern, most journalists articles I read havent a clue about medicine/drugs. I love reading articles on recreational drugs, some are hilariously ignorant.

Jimmy Bottlehead

rubadub wrote: »

I thought as a journalist you would not be too worried.

Well my immediate reaction would (I think naturally) be to worry about this - if Cyclone is deemed lethal, then what about the products I use? However, this is only the initial reaction... I would of course read into it, research it, and get proper informed opinions.
Fact is, 95% of people will worry upon hearing (for example) beef has been infected and has been consumed unknowingly. Same with supplements. There' always a small minority that are comfortable enough in their knowledge of the threat (real or exaggerated), but by and large, most people will assume the worst.

Just to make clear, I am in NO WAY WHATSOEVER saying that anything in this article is true, or should be considered seriously. What I am saying is that the general public cannot be blamed in any way whatsoever. Cock-ups like these rest solely on the shoulders of the media.

Luke Dublin

Just been in contact with IMB,

They have classed thermobol and cyclone as medicines. that's why they will be takeing them off the market

Some of what the IMB have classed as medicines are not on their imb prohibited list because their list is not big enough to include all medicines that should be only on sale by prescription.

.

Anyone selling cyclone at half price?????

g'em

If there are such establishements I really don't think that they'll be going around advertising a banned substance on a public board. And if they do, such posts will have to be deleted.

Dragan

Luke Dublin wrote: »

Anyone selling cyclone at half price?????

It's called XXX and you can pick it up anywhere that stocks Nutrition X

davyjose

Hanley wrote: »

Is any one else so sick and tired of this that they don't even bother trying to express their feelings on all of this...?

Yes

rubadub

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Well my immediate reaction would (I think naturally) be to worry about this - if Cyclone is deemed lethal, then what about the products I use? However, this is only the initial reaction... I would of course read into it, research it, and get proper informed opinions.

The quote about it being lethal/fatal was

Dr Joan Gilvarry, director of the IMB, the state organisation responsible for evaluating the quality, safety and efficacy of medicines in Ireland has stated: "Beta-ecdysterone is an anabolic steroid and it carries all the risks associated with that. It can damage you liver and your heart, increases your blood count and can cause blood clots in your legs and in your lungs which could be fatal."

I ingest a hell of a lot of substances that papers and "medical professionals" would say "could be fatal", that is why that statement would not worry me much. If he had said the recommended dosage of cyclone was in fact the LD50 (lethal dosage to 50% of people who take it), then I would worry. The LD50 for alcohol for a man my weight is around 15pints, this sunday I will probably have more than that, and hopefully live to tell the tale. If I downed it as vodka in one go it might kill me though.

Dragan

The low down

http://www.nutritionalreviews.org/betaecdysterone.htm

It's not like she was completely wrong, she just used the facts to her own ends is all.

rubadub

Dragan wrote: »

The low down

http://www.nutritionalreviews.org/betaecdysterone.htm

It's not like she was completely wrong, she just used the facts to her own ends is all.

From that site

How to take Beta Ecdysterone?
Although, at this point in time, it is not clear as to how effective ecdysterone is as an anabolic agent, the dose used by many nutritional companies is significantly lower than that recommended by researchers. Many companies use doses as low as 50-90mg. However, researchers recommend that ecdysterone is taken at a dose of 5mg per kg of bodyweight (Bizec et al., 2002). Therefore, an athlete weighing 70kg would need around 350mg of ecdysterone, and a 100kg athlete would need around 500mg of ecdysterone – significantly more than what is provided in most nutritional formulas!

Cyclone has 80mg per day.

http://www.maximuscle.com/cyclone

Dragan

rubadub wrote: »

Cyclone has 80mg per day.

Yeah i know. About a year ago i remember posting in a thread about Cyclone pretty much slating it as being over priced bull****.

The price of that compound in a pure, raw from is rough about 30,000 dollars per KILO for **** sake.

It simply is not a price viable effective supplement.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Dragan wrote: »

It simply is not a price viable effective supplement.

Well its not a legally viable supplement now either, so I guess the likes of Nutrition X will (rightly) benifit from its banning. Still unfair though, seeing as alcohol and cigarettes are both more dangerous and yet freely on sale. Its complete and utter BS.

Dragan

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Well its not a legally viable supplement now either, so I guess the likes of Nutrition X will (rightly) benifit from its banning. Still unfair though, seeing as alcohol and cigarettes are both more dangerous and yet freely on sale. Its complete and utter BS.

To be honest, i have to confess that a smile crept across my face when i heard the news. I have seen Maximuscle pedal bull**** product into an unregulated market for too long now.

I hate the way supplement companies use things like the aforementioned substance to up the price and seeming effectiveness of a supplement but neglect to tell you they are not even giving you close to a dose that will be effective but are still charging you full price.

Bring all those corrupt bastards down i say.

rubadub

Dragan wrote: »

I hate the way supplement companies use things like the aforementioned substance to up the price and seeming effectiveness of a supplement but neglect to tell you they are not even giving you close to a dose that will be effective but are still charging you full price.

Always gonna be snakes in marketing, just like low quoted portion sizes on food so it appears low in calories.

Some supps in Holland & Barrett seem good value until you read what is in them, like the creatine is really a mixture with low levels of creatine in it, some might not catch this and just look at the price per kilo. Similar to how many low calorie meals are just watered down, yet cost even more than normal versions.

Hornd

To be honest, i have to confess that a smile crept across my face when i heard the news. I have seen Maximuscle pedal bull**** product into an unregulated market for too long now.

I hate the way supplement companies use things like the aforementioned substance to up the price and seeming effectiveness of a supplement but neglect to tell you they are not even giving you close to a dose that will be effective but are still charging you full price.

Bring all those corrupt bastards down i say.

A poor statement their dragon. While i will admit maximuscle are poor products mainly on account of price, it is a clear step in the wrong direction for sports supplements. In every product we buy there are expensive and cheaper brands - from the likes of beer, washing up liquid, cereal - everything. If someone wants to pay extra its is there right as a paying consumer.

Now absolutely no evidence ive seen indicates that Beta-ecdysterone is actually an anabolic steroid. Even in the this review http://www.nutritionalreviews.org/betaecdysterone.htm it clearly states it is "steroid like compound" but not an anabolic steroid.

The IMB went on a massive raid a couple of months ago and Beta-ecdysterone was never called into question. Now immediately once a report comes out they denounce it as if they never knew that it was on the shelf and say that it is an anabolic with major side effects. Absolutely none of this evidence is backed up with any type of medical or scientific reviews or studies that i know of.

This is exactly what happened in 2 months ago with B-12 the most common of common vitamins. It was called into question by the media and was immediately banned in products over the RDA. I must also point out that this rule is only being applied to a severe state in sport supplement shops. I went into a health shop and picked up 4 products above the allowed amount in vitamin B-12. There seems to be a clear targeting of the supplement industry and it is only a matter of time before a worried parent calls in or a review is done on protein which concludes that protein is the cause of some unknown disease or aliment.

Dragan

Hornd wrote: »

A poor statement their dragon.

Not really, it's an opinion. One from a unhappy ex customer of Maximuscle at that.

And it's Dragan.