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Linux or Windows?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    I read some of your posts and I see a few things that may not have been mentioned.

    The computer (regardless of cost and performance) is really useless without its software. So if you think you might one day “go beyond” email and internet, etc… note that there is MUCH more software and hardware on Windows. Included in this is more “choices”. And by that, I don’t mean fancy customizable settings in Linux. I mean things that you can do with a computer. Maybe Windows is not for everyone, but for that guy who said he’s gonna make his kids use ubuntu, there might be a chance that you can “reduce their exposure” to technology depending on the fate of Linux and other “open source” efforts in the future. I would get my kids Windows machines and if I have more money, get them a Linux one too as a bonus…but not the other way around. Something to consider, that’s all…

    One thing that is not as “visible” about Windows and Microsoft in general is that their products penetrate a wide variety of IT solutions everywhere. Most people only use (or are aware of using) at most 5% of Microsoft technology. Even behind the scenes of Vista and XP, (prolly not used) are components that are designed to integrate with so many other computer systems and technology. What is out there are things that tie into Windows in one way or another and you just don’t see it. That also has to do with the massive Windows software compatibility. Even though you are never going to buy these “industrial” software, you will likely work with something that is linked to it that is based on Windows technology. Look at this chart…
    http://www.belshe.com/2007/01/04/microsofts-revenue-breakdown-2003-2006/
    That’s in 2006 where 33% business is OSes (and only a fraction of those are for home PC’s). And it’s even less now because MS has many more industrial products than 2 years ago. Again…something to consider.

    Also, regarding costs and open source software etc., for “most” people the extra cost will be the more powerful hardware required to run Windows. Well, that’s because it simply is more powerful (as mentioned because of stuff you don’t see or use)…but that’s another story. I’m not sure most “home PC” users consider software a cost because from what I’ve gathered, because many Windows software are so widespread, too many people get it for “free” if you catch my drift. LOL Personally, I think MS makes this real easy to get for free so that they will get people hooked and bring preference to industry. Because, not too many people would buy all of these MS products because they are just outrageously expensive for “personal use”. They are good, but it’s just pure overkill outside of a business setting and MS knows this. Well, that’s my conspiracy theory anyway but whatever. Not that I encourage this behavior…but it’s so widespread that it’s also…something to consider.
    Anyway, on that note, there is also a LOT of freeware and cheap shareware out there too, because the Windows platform is so pervasive. And if you're into professional crap...MS actually gives it to students for free via Dreamspark.
    https://downloads.channel8.msdn.com/
    That's a couple of thousand USD there...

    Personally, I think Linux at this stage is still in the “specialty use” category. It’s just not developed enough to be a Home PC yet, imho.


  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭Garth


    I don't know. In a lot of countries that have emerging economies and are relying heavily on a highly skilled population in the future, Linux is being used in schools.

    Several friends of mine have been using Linux on servers for a very long time and for a huge variety of applications.

    I'm doubtful as to all this software that I've never heard of. Having worked in the graphic design field, in music technology, retail, IT, and accounting, I've seen quite a lot of software. A lot on Windows, a lot on Mac. Most of the stuff I've used in the past has excellent free alternatives in the "free software" movement.

    The single reason I still run windows on my laptop is games. I'm confident, however, that in the next few years there will be popular release games to run on Linux. They might be non-free, but they will run on it. Linux distributions are becoming far too popular for game makers to ignore it. I have a friend in Dell who, a year ago when I asked about it had no idea what I was talking about, and a few days ago commented on how popular Linux is becoming. She's about as non-techy as you can be, and still work at dell!

    After my experiences with Ubuntu, I'm pretty sure anyone using it alongside windows will see the difference very quickly.

    PS: and as for software, there's the "synaptic package manager" (which they should rename). When I was told I had to start maintaining a website, I went and downloaded a fully featured html editor and ftp program. Not shareware, not cracked. Fully functional and free. That always makes me happy.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    >So if you think you might one day “go beyond” email and internet, etc… note that there is MUCH more software and hardware on Windows

    I couldn't disagree more!
    One of the things I think is great about linux is there are a multitude of open source software options for any task you wish to achieve. Often this is considered a minus by windows fans, then their argument is there are so many options it's confusing. On linux, even something as core as the desktop offers a choice, KDE, Gnome or one of the many others great desktop managers such as Xfce, Afterstep, Windowmaker (one of my favourites), Enlightenment... there are so many. When it come sto with word processor, web browser or graphics tool the same applies.
    So to say there is “more choice” with windows is just so wrong!

    > depending on the fate of Linux and other “open source” efforts in the future
    A bit of FUD there?
    Actually I think the opposite *may* be the case. A recent Gartner report (The State Of Open Source 2008) states that “By 2012, more than 90% of enterprises will use open source in direct or embedded forms,”.
    So it seems the future for linux and OSS in general is very bright.

    > One thing that is not as “visible” about Windows and Microsoft in general is that their products penetrate a wide variety of IT solutions everywhere.

    And of course Linux doesn't??? This is more FUD. In fact, you are more likely to find linux, unix or some other non-microsoft software running the websites you visit and the set-top box under you TV. Microsoft was historically strong on the desktop but not so in the server area... though, they have made very strong gains in the last 10 years they are hardly everywhere. And when it comes to embedded solutions linux is becoming very popular but windows will never be (not as windows anyway – perhaps MS might provide something else but I doubt it).

    > Most people only use (or are aware of using) at most 5% of Microsoft technology
    Yes, well here we can agree ... we call this bloatware!
    Meanwhile, that 95% that you don't use which is “designed to integrate with so many other computer systems” is causing you real security issues.

    > Even though you are never going to buy these “industrial” software
    Linux, of course is probably more “industrial” which again has historically been said to be a negative by supporters of MS & windows.

    > for “most” people the extra cost will be the more powerful hardware required to run Windows
    No the extra cost is the License!
    And I can tell you if Linux had not been around offering real competition MS would be charging a lot more (see below).

    > Windows software are so widespread, too many people get it for “free” if you catch my drift
    I do. But you can't really suggest as an argument for choosing Windows over Linux is that by stealing the software, it's cheaper to use windows!! But I think, in Ireland at least, you may be correct that many do! But the point is they do not need to.

    Until recently I was quite agnostic on the question of MS or Open Source. But now for me the issue is not JUST whether Windows is better than Linux, the question is also one of trust. In the 1990s I was a DR-DOS user. It was compatible with MS-DOS but with many innovative features. Alas, its makers Digital Research never managed to make DR-DOS work with the new Windows and like many I was forced to switch to MS-DOS which was “more” stable. DR-DOS disappeared. Then in recent years, during the Department of Justice investigation into MS's monopoly, we learned that the reason DR couldn't stabilise DR-DOS was MS had programmed windows to randomly crash if it was being run on top of DR-DOS. How can anybody deal with a company willing to lie & cheat so? Did the demise of DR-DOS lead to better competition and more consumer options?
    well according to MS's own website (http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=6328095) in 1988 a PC cost $1,400 ($2,454 adjusted for inflation) - the “PCs came with DOS; Windows 2.0 was a $99 option” (From memory I think Dos was about $30, or there abouts, “off the shelf”). So the OS required to make the PC useful was 30/1400 = 2.15% of the price of the PC. Today, you can buy a PC for general use for £200 (http://efficientpc.co.uk/desktops/camulus/) and windows costs £100 (£133 is you choose vista Ultimate OEM or £185 “off the shelf”) .. so at best the the cost of the OS is now gone from being 2% to 50% of the cost of hardware on which it runs. This is what you can do when you have a monopoly and this is why it's bad for customers.

    There is an OSS solution for most things and most people can achieve what they need without breaking the law and without supporting a proven dishonest and unethical company like Microsoft. The future is Open Source... according the Gartner anyway so it must be true :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    Do what you will based on whatever principles you like. All I’m saying is that if you want to use something that “will be great in a couple of years” to use what it “will eventually have” then by all means go for Linux. When you buy peripherals including software out there now, there aren’t many that are made for Linux.

    If you think “open source” is so good, then why do professionals think…”If I get Open Office for free, I can save $100 on productivity. But if I pay $100 for MS office, I can save $300 on productivity.” This goes for a lot of other proprietary software and not just MS stuff. Like if you were a graphic artist, you will use Adobe Creative Suite 3 ($2,500 USD). E.g. Now IF in 2 years the “open source community” will make an Adobe CS4 equivalent competitor…that’s 2 years later…not now. I doubt it though but we’ll see. The way I see it, Linux has its special uses in niche applications, but it’s still a “You get what you pay for” deal. Just keep in mind that you might be stunting your options.

    OK well, I’m not much of a fan for anecdotal evidence on trends so here’s a link to research data (that’s a bit technical, but I’ll explain it for those that need).
    http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
    Of the major programming languages…
    MS-only programming languages C# and VB have been steadily rising.
    Linux prevalent Java and C++ have been steadily decreasing. These are in all OS’s not just Linux, btw.
    That says that MS products are gaining ground to me. Keep in mind that MS is primarily an industrial solutions provider. What’s more is that these C# and VB languages have enhanced functionality in integration with other MS products, like Office, Sharepoint, collaboration tools, Mobiles, Web Servers, Application Servers, Windows OS’s, etc…because they tie it in with the API really well. So it looks to me that MS has a bright future still. Now you might say that’s an outrageous monopolistic ploy. Maybe, but can you say open source would get to the point where they make everything as integrated? Hmmm… For me, I’m not going to be a crusader about stuff like this. I’ll just use what’s best for me without a “political standpoint”.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    [quote=croo;55843833(http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=6328095) in 1988 a PC cost $1,400 ($2,454 adjusted for inflation) - the “PCs came with DOS; Windows 2.0 was a $99 option” (From memory I think Dos was about $30, or there abouts, “off the shelf”). So the OS required to make the PC useful was 30/1400 = 2.15% of the price of the PC. Today, you can buy a PC for general use for £200 (http://efficientpc.co.uk/desktops/camulus/) and windows costs £100 (£133 is you choose vista Ultimate OEM or £185 “off the shelf”) .. so at best the the cost of the OS is now gone from being 2% to 50% of the cost of hardware on which it runs. This is what you can do when you have a monopoly and this is why it's bad for customers.
    [/quote]

    Not only are you comparing an "upgrade" to a stand-alone full-blown top-of-the-line option, but you haven't considered the tremendous decease in price of hardware. :rolleyes:


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    @rasmasyean
    You answers are laced with innuendo.

    >If you think “open source” is so good, then why do professionals think…”If I get Open Office for free, I can save $100 on productivity. But if I pay $100 for MS office.
    the innuendo being that only non-professionals choose something other than MS Office? If MS did think Open Office wasn't such a threat they would not have bothered with all the trouble getting ISO certification for it proprietary document format!

    The extent of my software use extends further than office suites.
    Personally I find I can do, with Open Office, all I ever did with Word & excel. And if I do have a problem I can get actual answers from the open office community. I never managed to get an answer from Microsoft, even when I represented billion dollar firms who were big customers.

    As for graphics artists I doubt you'll find that many using Windows either ... while it is changing some that has historically been a Mac only area. I remember, last year the UK magazine Linux Format created a single edition of the magazine using only open source applications and even they were surprised how well it went. Of course Linux format is published by Future Publishers who publish many magazines titles many of them Windows/PC magazines so they felt retooling the entire organisation would not be (immediately) possible but you can be sure their adobe sales rep will have a tough sale when their licenses come up for renewal!

    But if linux based software can manage to produce the blockbusters films, including Lord of the Rings, Star Wars: Episode II, Harry Potter, Shrek, and Titanic – it can manage to do the basic artwork in the typical businesses brochure!

    > I’m not much of a fan for anecdotal evidence
    The Gartner Report is anecdotal evidence?
    According to your link c# has not increased ?
    This is not a ranking system I am familiar with but if I read it right, all I see is that the MS languages account for perhaps 15% of the ranking. I don't see how that is evidence of anything? The difference in % growth over say java is negligible at 1.3%. From my own personal experience java is much more prevalent in the large enterprise world than MS. MS & VB apps are there for sure, but when it comes to business critical apps then it changes to some flavour of unix & JEE.

    > these C# and VB languages have enhanced functionality in integration with other MS products, like Office, Sharepoint, collaboration tools, Mobiles, Web Servers, Application Servers, Windows OS’s,

    And of course nobody else but MS has managed to integrate with web Servers, application servers & mobile!??? The fact is the rest of the software industry has moved on to open standard SOA & BPI environments. With the EU breathing down their necks MS's closed environments may turn into more of a burden that a benefit. Just like that other near monopoly before them, IBM, I don't expect MS to disappear .. just to change. It maybe just a blip in a overall negative market place but I thought it interesting that in a year when they released the newest version of their core product (vista) they also announced a Q3 profits fall of 5% and now a profit fall of 11% to end of March 2008. That's also interesting as those figures are in US$ which has depreciated a lot in the last year. So while I admit MS has a huge amount of capital reserves built up and so won't be in financial trouble any time soon (if ever) things are not as rosy as would seem. I remember well people saying the same things about IBM in the 80s that they say about MS today.

    And I'm not about “crusading” or “politics” either... I'm simple a customer who was badly treated (but then that's what monopolies do). As such I choose not to spend money with that supplier again if possible. Now with linux I have a real choice so I'm exercising it. Using linux I can browse the web, send emails, edit photos, scan images, create artwork, write documents, track my time, calculate my expenses in spreadsheets, run business software. Run web servers, application servers, databases... design & develop code to run on them. Listen to music, watch DVDs, chat with friends in skype & IRC ... in short I can do all you do in windows. All for free. Ok perhaps you can do this for free too using illegally copies software. I prefer not to break the law. Of course I'm not adverse to paying for software ... if I find I need to use closed source software I'll buy it. But these days I find that less and less necessary... until now I don't think I use any fee based closed source applications.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    rasmasyean wrote: »
    Not only are you comparing an "upgrade" to a stand-alone full-blown top-of-the-line option, but you haven't considered the tremendous decease in price of hardware. :rolleyes:

    How so? A full copy of MS-DOS was only about $30 around that time? And that was the top of the range. And the hardware decrease you point to are precisely my point ... the same should have happened to the software too! It was microsoft's monopoly that ensured it didn't.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    the “PCs came with DOS
    yeah there was another court case over that, took 5 years to get microsoft to stop demanding a royalty for Dos for EVERY computer made by any manufacturer that was allowed to pre install DOS.
    Dos wasn't free, The consumer had to pay for a copy of it no matter what OS they choose to run later on.

    Today it's a little different , a handful of people have gotten refunds of $48 or so by returning windows. But PC's with preinstalled Linux aren't cheaper than windows ones :(


    Why are business using windows ?
    Inertial is the main reason.

    Training - the time to train employees is expensive when you take into account loss of earning too. Just look at the number of organisations that aren't rolling out Vista yet. It's getting to the stage where going from XP/Office 200 to Vista/2007 might not be all that much more than going to OpenOffice. Also there are a lot of people out there who demand Microsoft apps because that's what they are used to , regardless of the technical merits or cost.

    Terminal server licenses, mean that you can't save any money on microsoft apps by using linux clients. In fact if you use microsoft server apps then CAL's are a bitch anyway. And you can't run microsoft server apps unless you have the appropiate server license.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    croo wrote: »
    How so? A full copy of MS-DOS was only about $30 around that time? And that was the top of the range. And the hardware decrease you point to are precisely my point ... the same should have happened to the software too! It was microsoft's monopoly that ensured it didn't.

    Hardware cost decrease is due to automation and they can make the same amount of stuff much faster. In addition harware is smallere and smaller doing more things so frieght and material is less.
    Software keeps growing and requires more and more people to make it because it takes more and more time.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    rasmasyean wrote:
    Software keeps growing and requires more and more people to make it because it takes more and more time.
    First copy of windows 95 cost $300,000,000
    the second copy cost 30c

    It's because of the costs that old versions are retired. My Uncle was delighted to find the word processor in Works, because it was the same as the version of Word he used to use on a 486. The only difference was the defult file format had been changed one supposes to prevent inter-operability as there was no technical need to. The point here is that for many people the old version is perfectly adaquate and having to fork out money to buy and then train up on bloat ware doesn't go down well.

    Had he bought a later version of word it would not have done anything extra that he needed, would have been slower more confusing and totally unnecessary.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    >Personally I find I can do, with Open Office, all I ever did with Word & excel. And if I do have a problem I can get actual answers from the open office community. I never managed to get an answer from Microsoft, even when I represented billion dollar firms who were big customers.

    Maybe so, but “presently”, MS Office is preferred often because it has the hidden collaboration software that is adopted by many firms. And advanced firms have IT created software that integrates with the Office Suite with… C# and VB (a.k.a .NET Office automation) So people like to stick with one Spreadsheet tool that can do everything rather than learn two…especially the latter is inferior. So when you go for a job (excluding programmer, etc.), its likely better to say you know Excel.


    > As for graphics artists I doubt you'll find that many using Windows either

    I was just making an example of open source versus proprietary. It could be a kid’s educational software on Mac for all that matter.


    > Of course Linux format is published by Future Publishers who publish many magazines titles many of them Windows/PC magazines so they felt retooling the entire organization would not be (immediately) possible but you can be sure their adobe sales rep will have a tough sale when their licenses come up for renewal!

    It’s also because companies want accountability…someone to obtain support from and yell at when their software doesn’t work. Software in these cases is a “service” (not a product). They don’t want to go to open source forums and make changes by themselves. That’s not reliable and they don’t see that as cost effective overall. But you’re grounding theory is probably right too.


    > From my own personal experience java is much more prevalent.

    You are right. Java and JEE has years of head start…but what the chart is showing is that it’s losing ground to MS based software in recent years.


    > The fact is the rest of the software industry has moved on to open standard SOA & BPI environments.

    ARE or WERE? Or maybe TOO? What does that chart show? I’m not saying that MS definitely will dominate…but just that the trend it’s gaining ground. And likely, less Linux and maybe even unix will be used. What MS has as advantage (even in relative instability) is its ease of integration with Office productivity. You can’t deny that there is an overwhelming domination going on here. As for the instability, there is a solution. As mentioned above, hardware is cheaper and cheaper so they have clusters and backups. So when they have a new business idea going…they may be likely to just order 10 MS Server 2008’s versus 4 unix / linux based boxes.

    http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS21114208
    Top Server Market Findings
    • Microsoft Windows servers showed positive growth as revenues grew 6.9% and unit shipments grew 9.8% year over year. Quarterly revenue of $5.7 billion for Microsoft Windows servers set an all-time high for a single quarter and represented the single largest revenue segment in the server market with 36.6% of overall quarterly factory revenue.
    • Unix servers experienced 1.5% revenue growth year over year when compared with 4Q06. Worldwide Unix revenues were $5.2 billion for the quarter, representing 33.3% of quarterly server spending and reflecting continued IT investment in this server market segment, with particular strength in the midrange enterprise segment of the Unix market which comprises 53.8% of all Unix spending.
    • Linux server revenue reached $2.0 billion for the first time in any single quarter on 11.6% year-over-year growth. Linux servers now represent 12.7% of all server revenue, up more than 1 point over 4Q06.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    >But if linux based software can manage to produce the blockbusters films, including Lord of the Rings, Star Wars: Episode II, Harry Potter, Shrek, and Titanic – it can manage to do the basic artwork in the typical businesses brochure!

    I never said linux is not capable of power applications. With low overhead and excellent reliability, it's actually the better system (or unix like SGI back then made Terminator 2) than Windows for certain things. But these are still "specialty usages". You can't have these applications anyway. There's actually an effort to try to port Adobe stuff to Google's Wine, but it still hasn't been able to cut it. And maybe new Adobe stuff will counter that with "subtle sabataging code". MS will, you know it. It happens...not something that concerns me more than the US PTO.

    You don't have as many choices for Home PC stuff. And some choices will make you spend hours just to get it working...never for grandma. Whatever choices you do have...maybe it's good enough for some...or maybe by going to Linux, you will never know what you are missing out because you could have had something better to use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    rasmasyean wrote: »
    but for that guy who said he’s gonna make his kids use ubuntu,.

    Don't put words in my mouth! What I said was "My two 4 year olds don't know what Windows is yet and during the summer I'm building an old PC with Edubuntu on it just for them. They won't have any fear of Linux when they're older."

    Where there does it say I'm gonna 'make them' use Ubuntu. Linux is the OS of choice for me - and that's what it's about - choice. The vast majority of people don't realise there is a choice so they are using Windows as the only option that they are aware of. The key phrase from my post was "They won't have any fear of Linux when they're older."
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    more powerful hardware required to run Windows. Well, that’s because it simply is more powerfu
    You say that like it's a fact. It's no more powerful (apart from using more power) than Linux. In fact imho Linux is more powerful because of that word I used above - choice. Anybody with the know-how can make it do anything they want. Try recoding Windows to streamline it for less powerful pcs - or to customise it for specific purposes - you can't.

    The Asus eeepc is running Linux for 2 reasons - 1. it's free and keeps the cost down and 2. Asus have customised the distro they chose for their product. That's just one example. For more examples have a look at the number of Ubuntu clones around - Mandriva, PCLinuxOS, LinuxMint, etc - and they're just customised general purpose distros. Then you have specific purpose distros - Edubuntu (education), Scibuntu (science), MoLinux (Castilla la Mancha local govt. purpose built distro), nUbuntu (network monitoring and penetration testing), Ubuntu Christian Edition (bible bashing), Ubuntu Satanic Edition (bible-basher bashing :D).

    Yet you say Windows is more powerful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    First copy of windows 95 cost $300,000,000
    the second copy cost 30c

    It's because of the costs that old versions are retired. My Uncle was delighted to find the word processor in Works, because it was the same as the version of Word he used to use on a 486. The only difference was the defult file format had been changed one supposes to prevent inter-operability as there was no technical need to. The point here is that for many people the old version is perfectly adaquate and having to fork out money to buy and then train up on bloat ware doesn't go down well.

    Had he bought a later version of word it would not have done anything extra that he needed, would have been slower more confusing and totally unnecessary.

    If that's the case and you know you are going to not want any more...then by all means, cheaper / free / scaled-down...is prolly better...as long as you know that there is more out there but that you definately just don't need or want it. That is my point. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭blackgold>>


    Just want to add a few words to the debate.
    Don't confuse an operating system with an application.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    rasmasyean wrote: »
    MS Office is preferred often because it has the hidden collaboration software
    hmmm hidden collaboration software - Is that MS marketing speak for security holes?
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    It’s also because companies want accountability…
    Aha.. another MS fan that has never read their license. Can you point out to us where on your windows or MS office EULA that MS is accountable?
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    someone to obtain support from and yell at when their software doesn’t work.
    As I said, I have worked for huge billion dollar companies and tried to get support from MS. The best you'll get after a very time consuming discussion is acknowledgment that there is a problem. It's just a waste of time calling. With an Open Source application I can often get an actual fix or if the worst comes to the worst fix it myself.
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    You are right. Java and JEE has years of head start…but what the chart is showing is that it’s losing ground to MS based software in recent years.
    Actually VB has been around LONG before Java! And it's been a while since looked but from memory C# was just the MS name for their own version of Java.
    So I don't accept that at all.
    And the chart doesn't show Java is loosing ground! According to that Java use increased too!

    I should add that Java is not considered a *very* Open product either. Although things there are changing. Many open applications are developed in Java ok, but I would guess (haven't seen any stats) that most are probably written in C++.
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    Office productivity. You can’t deny that there is an overwhelming domination going on here.
    I don't deny MS Office dominates. But I also remember when the same could be said of WordPerfect! Personally, I think MS Office has peaked. And I also think MS believe this too hence their attempts to make OXML an ISO standard. They rightly fear the emergence and acceptance of the OpenDocument standard which would level the playing fields for Office suites.
    MS's biggest Office customers are governments... look around the world at how many have either jumped ship are are mulling the idea. This would never have happened only a 10 years ago.
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    As for the instability, there is a solution.... just order 10 MS Server 2008’s versus 4 unix / linux based boxes.
    lol - do you work for MS... this sounds like one of their solutions ok.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    Croo, Dude you’re reaching…
    Look past your post-traumatic-stress with MS and notice that I was talking about proprietary software (where MS is not the only company there is here). I also tried to clarify this before regarding another one of your tunnel-vision statements. :cool:
    croo wrote: »
    Actually VB has been around LONG before Java! And it's been a while since looked but from memory C# was just the MS name for their own version of Java.
    So I don't accept that at all.
    And the chart doesn't show Java is loosing ground! According to that Java use increased too!

    And you might nit-pick about VB, but you KNOW that I’m talking about the .NET framework and its “recent” evolution in relation to integration. There is a movement and you can resist but many .NET jobs are cropping up at an increasing rate. The link I gave of the server market is enough to convince most people that it’s happening. Check this link out where they even give thousands of USD worth of software free to students to prepare them for the workforce? Charity or Strategy…you can decide but it’s real.

    https://downloads.channel8.msdn.com/

    The .NET tools also make programming a lot easier and you don’t need to be as proficient in Mathematics and Logic and Computer Science, etc. Windows Mobile apps are cropping up all over the place even though they don’t have a decent market share…because the .NET skills port easily between Web/Desktop/Mobile and it’s so easy that people just crank out some pretty useless apps but to each their own…it’s usually free and prolly part of some pet project.
    croo wrote: »
    I don't deny MS Office dominates. But I also remember when the same could be said of WordPerfect! Personally, I think MS Office has peaked. And I also think MS believe this too hence their attempts to make OXML an ISO standard. They rightly fear the emergence and acceptance of the OpenDocument standard which would level the playing fields for Office suites.
    MS's biggest Office customers are governments... look around the world at how many have either jumped ship are are mulling the idea. This would never have happened only a 10 years ago.


    OK I’ll give you that WordPerfect argument and fine, it went into oblivion. But back then if you wanted to use the best word processor, what would you have chosen? Don’t tell me you said, "I choose the up and coming MS-Word because even as it sucks now, I know it will be great in 5 years because MS is an up-n coming revolution in the whole industry! Yeah baby!"
    croo wrote: »
    lol - do you work for MS... this sounds like one of their solutions ok.
    The the 10 server comment is not an MS recommended solution that I know of. It’s simple as this... “Penny-wise, Pound Foolish”. The cliché British quote that tells you that sometimes you will loose out on opportunity if you try to skimp.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    Reaching!? me!?
    You are the one suggesting proprietary software is just as cheap as open source so long as you just copy it from a friend and don't pay for licenses.
    You are the one who suggested MS windows is bloat but you can just buy 10 servers instead of 4.
    And you think I' reaching... is this a wind up?
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    Look past your post-traumatic-stress with MS
    Actually I don't have any stress with MS it's a free market. But if they break the law I think they should be treated accordingly.
    And I do have issues with people who obviously don't know what they are talking about spreading misinformation.
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    you might nit-pick about VB, but you KNOW that I’m talking about the .NET
    Well I am sorry, I forgot to put my clairvoyant hat on.

    From your comments
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    The .NET tools also make programming a lot easier and you don’t need to be as proficient in Mathematics and Logic and Computer Science,
    This doesn't strike me as a comment someone who actually develops would make. Are you a software developer?

    And you don't need to be a developer to declare you find MS Office user friendly. But to declare .NET makes programming “easier” you should be.
    And "easier" than what precisely? Maybe you can give some definitive examples?

    I'm sure, too, the other readers here would like to see an example EULA that defines the accountability of proprietary software developers.
    Ok, so you admit now that MS does NOT provide any accountability in its licenses but if I understand you, others do? Are you going to provide examples? I assume it's the norm rather than the exception so it will be easy to find examples!?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    croo wrote:
    Actually I don't have any stress with MS it's a free market. But if they break the law I think they should be treated accordingly.
    agree 110%
    IMHO overall microsoft have benefited from repeatedly breaking the law. The fines are large and consititute a loss of earnings, but it's in no way comparable to the loss of earnings of competitors / or market share gained.

    If microsoft had realistic copy protection on their products would they have such a large market share ?

    Replacing 4 servers with 10 - WTF ??
    That' includes at least 50 Windows CAL's , but you would also need CAL's for tany other server apps. We had to replace an accounts system. Because the back end was MSSQL based we had to spend as much on upgrading the existing licenses as we did on the server hardware just so the clients could connect to the accounts package. I'm still not sure the accountants factored in this extra cost. Licensing changes from the older version also complicated the issue, something that you rarely have to worry about with most open source software.

    Microsoft are great at dangling the carrot. I guess there are a lot of people running terminal server 2000 because unlike 2003 XP clients don't need an extra CAL / all the hassle of a temporay client / test machine locking out a license for three months.

    I love the Cisco ad with the skate board.
    It shows what can happen when people are free to use / share information , like open source.

    However in the real world you can't do that because each company like Cisco would lock down it's particular improvement for as long as possible. How long do you think it would take to make that skate board if cisco, microsoft, ibm and apple each designed the improvements ? Each company would release skateboards with partial improvements and workarounds, microsoft would probabably buy out a small company that figured out how to do it .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    That' includes at least 50 Windows CAL's

    Load Distribution and Fault Tolerancing can make it like a “1 virtual server”, etc.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    croo wrote: »
    This doesn't strike me as a comment someone who actually develops would make. Are you a software developer?

    And you don't need to be a developer to declare you find MS Office user friendly. But to declare .NET makes programming “easier” you should be.
    And "easier" than what precisely? Maybe you can give some definitive examples?

    Yes I am actually, and I’ve used all the languages mentioned in this thread and then some. OK, it’s not “easy” like for the average joe easy, but it’s easier and speedier to crank out powerful applications without “good programming techniques”, when you at least learn how to use it. Just like how MS works…crank out products as fast as you can to initial capture the market and fix it later. LOL I guess you can call that an “example”. Heh. But seriously, it has a massive amount of components that you can use and the beauty of much of it…is that it integrates with Office as well as existing technologies like SharePoint, and even other non-MS stuff. Like if you wanted to interface Excel in Java, you would have to invent something or make something really crappy, at best you can buy a 3rd party solution. But in .NET, it’s like all there already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    croo wrote: »
    You are the one suggesting proprietary software is just as cheap as open source so long as you just copy it from a friend and don't pay for licenses.


    Hey, I’m just being a realist and looking at the world the way it is.

    That’s one of the problems with some “open source fanatics” and do-gooders who prolly use that ubuntu Christian Edition or whatever too. The world ain’t so black and white. Many people wouldn’t buy much of these uber softwares anyway just because they can’t afford it and/or deem it totally not worth it. And these uber softwares bundle almost all known features since “data-storage” is so cheap that even if 100 ppl use a different 1% of the features, they can all use the same exact software! That’s hardly worth price for anyone for “home use” and “messing around”. But IF they DO get to use it and get familiar with it, overall the population will become more of a “skilled workforce” among others. And that benefits society AND the software companies in many ways!

    You think this “free” open-source movement is so helpful to “Africans” or whatever 3rd world effort is in the radar? You think they are better off using Linux and “re-invented wheel substitutes” versus the Chinese who use Windows and all the high-end software there is as a result? First of all, the Chinese are one of those people who can’t afford these on a month’s (maybe year’s) salary. But they need it to survive and prosper. But if they do not have these in their factories…guess what? You will NOT have your $200 eeeeePCCCCC or whatever pedestal cheap computer you worship. :eek: Heck…there wouldn’t be those $400 name brand PC’s that license…Windows!!! :D This all gives even more people the option to use a computer and buy licensed PCs! Heck, my PC cost $1800 (not on discount because I built it). And it’s probably about as good as a $4000 Mac. Don’t worry though, once China gets their act together, there will be a time where they have to pay for Licenses in order to become better partners with the big players later on…if they make it that far. But in the meantime it benefits the whole.

    There is a place for open-source, but just too much of it is re-invented wheels. If much of these talents is re-directed to making something NEW, or IMPROVING something, it would be much better. And maybe if some new product is good, it will be acquired by Microsoft, etc! And then the developer can use the money to work on alternative fuels! Much of the open-source effort is misplaced. The less African kids have ubuntu whatever edition, the more motive they will have to get Windows and all other “full” softwares to use and THAT will be better for them. Licenses are not an issue for these places. I bet many are already on this track. ;)

    I’ve used computers for a long time and I can say that there ARE some principles in copying software that people seem to follow. I don’t know about now since The Pirate Bay has hit 12 million users, but I suspect these are mostly music and videos. At least in the industrialized world...If they use it for profit, they have to pay. If it’s a single developer and someone likes and uses his stuff, they generally pay him if they can afford (usually it’s cheap anyway) and if they really like it, it’s customary to make an extra “donation”. Small company…if they really use it a lot, then they pay for it. Large company…forget it…it’s sometimes taboo to pay for it. e.g. I told friends I have a licensed Vista Ultimate 64 and they were like…”OMG you bought that sh!t??? What the hell is wrong with you!”…I was like “ No, No, well, a family member has MS connections and gave me one.” That explanation practically saved me from being crucified! :(

    EDIT: I just priced that equivalent spec of Mac at $4500 instead. (I also forgot about my $250 in rebates which actually puts my PC at a mere $1550) jeeze rofl! China FTW!!!


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    rasmasyean wrote: »
    whatever pedestal cheap computer you worship
    I don't worship. Not machine, man (Bill Gates in your case) or God(s).
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    But if they do not have these in their factories…guess what? You will NOT have your $200 eeeeePCCCCC
    I don't have one :(
    Well, I agreed MS Office was ubiquitous in businesses and its Outlook connection to the server Exchange server are also very (but less) common too BUT production planning for high tech firms (and this is an area I have a lot of experience in) – is an area I don't think you'll find MS! They've been buying lots of SME business software packages in the last 10 years but I don't think any of them were SAP, was it? I don't know what ASUS use (SAP is a good bet) but in the ERP world MS is small fry!
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    my PC cost $1800 (not on discount because I built it)
    Ah, a gamer!
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    And it’s probably about as good as a $4000 Mac.
    Obviously, from your arguments to date, it is NOT ... you get what you pay for after all! And If you built it, it cannot be of the quality the “Professionals” at Apple achieved!
    Now, obviously I would like to believe you can build a good PC. Really I would! But the facts are stacked against you ... the bottom line is yours only cost $1800 while the mac is $4000... so it MUST be better!!! ????
    rasmasyean wrote: »
    There is a place for open-source, but just too much of it is re-invented wheels.
    What did MS with its huge leading role and near monopoly at home and in the office invent? MS-DOS was a copy of CP/M, Windows a copy of the Apple UI, word processors & spreadsheets were around before office - what brilliant ideas did piece MS come up with? Oh .. hold on I know... that "paper clip" guy?

    Or perhaps it was the biggest thing today in the world of computing ... the web? So did MS invent web browsers? no? what did they invent? And don't give me a list of USPTO numbers... you can get a patent from them for making a sandwich.

    Initially perhaps, there was a lot of “re-inventing” in the OSS world but then most software development is re-inventing anyway. That is precisely why it shoudl be open source. So long as closed then people have to build from scratch all the time ... with open source people can just extend & improve. But the Open Source “movement” -as you call it ... Business Model I call it- had to rebuild the foundations.

    As for vista your friends are right! You are now a user of one of the least used operating systems in the world. And you'll probably have a lot of problem getting new hardware & software that works :) You'd do better to install a nice linux distro :) finish that machine of yours properly. :D Mind you I don't know if there is a WoW port for linux :)


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    rasmasyean wrote: »
    Hey, I’m just being a realist and looking at the world the way it is.
    The way the world is depends on the perspective from which you look at it.
    That’s one of the problems with some “open source fanatics” and do-gooders who prolly use that ubuntu Christian Edition or whatever too.
    Does the phrase "straw man" mean anything to you?

    Not everyone uses Open Source because of fanatacism. I use it because it fits my needs better than proprietary software does. I find OpenOffice.org entirely adequate for the word processing and spreadsheet work I need to do. When I want to produce higher-quality documents, I use LaTeX. Running a large network, I couldn't function without tools like wireshark, nmap, netcat, nagios, cacti... you name it.

    Best of all, if there's a bug in one of those tools, I have the source code so I can fix it myself - and have done so on a number of occasions.
    You think this “free” open-source movement is so helpful to “Africans” or whatever 3rd world effort is in the radar? You think they are better off using Linux and “re-invented wheel substitutes” versus the Chinese who use Windows and all the high-end software there is as a result?
    You're arguing from the premise that Windows and "high-end" software is a better fit for third-world countries in the first place.
    First of all, the Chinese are one of those people who can’t afford these on a month’s (maybe year’s) salary. But they need it to survive and prosper. But if they do not have these in their factories…guess what? You will NOT have your $200 eeeeePCCCCC or whatever pedestal cheap computer you worship. :eek: Heck…there wouldn’t be those $400 name brand PC’s that license…Windows!!! :D This all gives even more people the option to use a computer and buy licensed PCs! Heck, my PC cost $1800 (not on discount because I built it). And it’s probably about as good as a $4000 Mac. Don’t worry though, once China gets their act together, there will be a time where they have to pay for Licenses in order to become better partners with the big players later on…if they make it that far. But in the meantime it benefits the whole.
    I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. How does it benefit us to have third-world countries using pirated versions of commercial software rather than legitimate copies of open source software?
    There is a place for open-source, but just too much of it is re-invented wheels. If much of these talents is re-directed to making something NEW, or IMPROVING something, it would be much better.
    Two things: first, wheels are being re-invented because (a) the original wheel is often deeply flawed to the point of being beyond repair (like the fundamentally broken security model that has underpinned so many versions of Windows), and (b) they are prohibitively expensive to begin with. Second, much of the open source software I use doesn't either doesn't have a commercial equivalent, or predates it: what commercial software do you propose I use instead of LaTeX? Wireshark? nmap?
    And maybe if some new product is good, it will be acquired by Microsoft, etc!
    You're demonstrating your total misunderstanding of the open source process: if it's open, it can't be acquired. It remains open.

    Have you read enough to understand the nature of the philosophy you're arguing against? Have you read ESR's essays, starting with The Cathedral and the Bazaar?
    And then the developer can use the money to work on alternative fuels!
    Again you're demonstrating your ignorance: open software doesn't have a developer, it has a community.
    Much of the open-source effort is misplaced. The less African kids have ubuntu whatever edition, the more motive they will have to get Windows and all other “full” softwares to use and THAT will be better for them. Licenses are not an issue for these places. I bet many are already on this track. ;)
    Yet again, you're (a) assuming that proprietary software is a better fit for the third world (without bothering to explain why), and (b) advocating piracy of commercial software.
    I’ve used computers for a long time and I can say that there ARE some principles in copying software that people seem to follow. I don’t know about now since The Pirate Bay has hit 12 million users, but I suspect these are mostly music and videos. At least in the industrialized world...If they use it for profit, they have to pay. If it’s a single developer and someone likes and uses his stuff, they generally pay him if they can afford (usually it’s cheap anyway) and if they really like it, it’s customary to make an extra “donation”. Small company…if they really use it a lot, then they pay for it. Large company…forget it…it’s sometimes taboo to pay for it. e.g. I told friends I have a licensed Vista Ultimate 64 and they were like…”OMG you bought that sh!t??? What the hell is wrong with you!”…I was like “ No, No, well, a family member has MS connections and gave me one.” That explanation practically saved me from being crucified! :(
    I'd have a lot more respect for your perspective if it was at least internally consistent. As it is, you seem to advocate commercial software as being inherently superior to open source, but to abhor actually paying for it.

    At least the open source movement is clear about how it works.
    EDIT: I just priced that equivalent spec of Mac at $4500 instead. (I also forgot about my $250 in rebates which actually puts my PC at a mere $1550) jeeze rofl! China FTW!!!
    This forum isn't about Mac or PC hardware, and I fail to see how it's relevant to the discussion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    croo wrote: »
    Well, I agreed MS Office was ubiquitous in businesses and its Outlook connection to the server Exchange server are also very (but less) common too BUT production planning for high tech firms (and this is an area I have a lot of experience in) – is an area I don't think you'll find MS! They've been buying lots of SME business software packages in the last 10 years but I don't think any of them were SAP, was it? I don't know what ASUS use (SAP is a good bet) but in the ERP world MS is small fry!

    You forgot you clairvoyant hat again! No one would suspect MS is known for automation…but they actually are presently trying to penetrate that at this moment…see…
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx
    But a plant doesn’t operate in isolation. There’s an office setting that controls logistics, the business end..etc. And if you want to trickle it more down the line…trading, accounting...import export, etc. Anyway, how do you know they pay for all their “floor” softwares? If they are so well known for pirating Desktop stuff, why wouldn’t they add some machinery stuff where they are find it possible?

    croo wrote: »
    Obviously, from your arguments to date, it is NOT ... you get what you pay for after all! And If you built it, it cannot be of the quality the “Professionals” at Apple achieved!
    Now, obviously I would like to believe you can build a good PC. Really I would! But the facts are stacked against you ... the bottom line is yours only cost $1800 while the mac is $4000... so it MUST be better!!! ????

    My Fraken-computer prolly isn’t certified and tested or has the best “air-flow” etc. Besides, it looks like the Apple store starts to kill your wallet as you start customizing too. :mad: But I have to do it so I can run the “applications” (including games :)). Yeah, I could buy a Dell XPS but it’s easy enough for a geek like me to have a decent chance to make it work well enough. And it doesn’t HAVE to be that reliable. Windows isn’t anyway.

    croo wrote: »
    What did MS with its huge leading role and near monopoly at home and in the office invent? MS-DOS was a copy of CP/M, Windows a copy of the Apple UI, word processors & spreadsheets were around before office - what brilliant ideas did piece MS come up with? Oh .. hold on I know... that "paper clip" guy?

    Or perhaps it was the biggest thing today in the world of computing ... the web? So did MS invent web browsers? no? what did they invent? And don't give me a list of USPTO numbers... you can get a patent from them for making a sandwich.

    Initially perhaps, there was a lot of “re-inventing” in the OSS world but then most software development is re-inventing anyway. That is precisely why it shoudl be open source. So long as closed then people have to build from scratch all the time ... with open source people can just extend & improve. But the Open Source “movement” -as you call it ... Business Model I call it- had to rebuild the foundations.

    Improvements, implementation of new ideas on top of base inventions, and the most important…marketing and selling it to the masses. BTW, this requires massive amounts of money…pretty tough for open-source business models I think. I don’t doubt there are some open-source gurus with there, by many are just hobbyists that delve in and leave for a better life. And there is no real support other than the goodness of someones heart by chance. Is this better than using professionals with their jobs at stake? Perhaps principally communism vs. capitalism? Maybe this can be argued forever, but I think majority of people work not out of love but out of fear. At most they work out of love for their family or money…but it’s not out of love for the work. I mean, I DO hope that we get to the point where resources are so easy to come by that we can all work for the community, like in Star Trek…but we just aren’t there yet…
    croo wrote: »
    As for vista your friends are right! You are now a user of one of the least used operating systems in the world. And you'll probably have a lot of problem getting new hardware & software that works :) You'd do better to install a nice linux distro :) finish that machine of yours properly. :D Mind you I don't know if there is a WoW port for linux :)

    You're not counting the illegal coppies in China.
    And they "sold" 140 million http://www.crn.com/software/207402009 .

    But how’d you guess about the problems??? ;) OK OK, so I couldn’t even install it because the original installation disks couldn’t handle more than 3 GB of RAM so I had to install it with less and put more RAM in afterward. Took a few attempts to figure it was a "known issue" and it was very sloppy of MS. :mad: I bought all certified hardware and whatever "old" software wasn’t certified or didn’t work any more, I found alternatives. I got all my old non-certified games to work by looking on the internet for solutions :). Mostly it’s related to old stuff but new stuff works great. And my computer is not slow although it is fairly higher end than average. It actually blue-screens only once in a while and less than my old XP. I might have messed my old XP up over time who knows, but I think overall Vista is more stable and speedy even as I run persistant stuff in the background including Folding@Home...
    File?id=d2wk3qs_17ddgjx4hb_b
    ...ad opportunity...sorry :p
    If anything DX10 graphics is pretty awesome and if you’re into this sort of thing it’s worth it to get it.
    WoW actually works very well on linux last time I checked the linux sites. It’s amazing how “love” works so good when it comes to things like this…


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭rasmasyean


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Not everyone uses Open Source because of fanatacism.

    I said “some”…


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You're arguing from the premise that Windows and "high-end" software is a better fit for third-world countries in the first place. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. How does it benefit us to have third-world countries using pirated versions of commercial software rather than legitimate copies of open source software?

    My point is that there is a “grey area” in software piracy and they pirate good stuff that open-source can’t match. The cheap manufacturers give us cheap products so we (policy) tolerate it because it’s a mutual benefit. Does the phrase “necessary evil” mean anything to you?

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You're demonstrating your total misunderstanding of the open source process: if it's open, it can't be acquired. It remains open.

    I’m saying that it should be made by proprietary means.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    As it is, you seem to advocate commercial software as being inherently superior to open source, but to abhor actually paying for it.

    So…it happens more than you think. You think it’s better that they don’t? Tell that to them. It’s a grey area.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    At least the open source movement is clear about how it works.
    What do you mean? “Truth, Honor, and Justice”? Read comic books? GREY area! Does this kill people? There are more important things to get all hung up about and the world economy is a little more complicated.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    rasmasyean wrote: »
    Load Distribution and Fault Tolerancing can make it like a “1 virtual server”, etc.
    Cool
    I had thought you had to buy Licenses and CAL's to use virtual servers.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    croo wrote:
    What did MS with its huge leading role and near monopoly at home and in the office invent? MS-DOS was a copy of CP/M, Windows a copy of the Apple UI, word processors & spreadsheets were around before office - what brilliant ideas did piece MS come up with? Oh .. hold on I know... that "paper clip" guy?

    Or perhaps it was the biggest thing today in the world of computing ... the web? So did MS invent web browsers? no? what did they invent? And don't give me a list of USPTO numbers... you can get a patent from them for making a sandwich.
    Actually DOS was bought from Seattle University - it's original name was QDOS - quick and dirty os, and look how little has change since. What's his name didn't patent Visicalc otherwise he'd have a monopoly on spreadsheets. Microsoft bought IE from spyglass. Apple copied their UI from Atari / Amiga / Xerox
    Early Windows versions owed a lot to DESQview and GEM too and there was the whole joint venture with IBM on OS/2 and buying the DEC VMS team to get NT off the ground

    Oh BTW you missed Microsoft BOB, which I think many observers reckon was home produced and not bought in or copied.

    Microsoft based their TCP/IP stack on BSD - lets remember that there is probably a lot of other stuff out there based on open source that doesn't use the GNU license and so can become closed source. BUT since large corporations use closed source how can we be sure that open source is not being used illegally ? SONY got caught when they got an outside company to infect Music Disks with malware that included LAME code.

    Hardware companies have traditionally give away software free to get ethe hardware sales. Just look at all the drivers and apps and freebies you get. This can work for closed source as well as open source. Look at SUN/Solaris - they have even open sourced the processor design. Point here is that you don't need a monopoly and enforced software sales to stay in business.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    But a plant doesn’t operate in isolation. There’s an office setting that controls logistics, the business end..etc.
    Yeah well this is typically what is addressed by the ERPs I mention. But MS aren't big there either. Their purchase of the likes of Navision & Great Plains give them some business presence but they are far from being leaders... but these apps are aimed at the SME ... I suspect ASUS (the builders of the EEEPC) would probably be too big for these applications. They are most likely a SAP or Oracle customer.
    I don’t doubt there are some open-source gurus with there, by many are just hobbyists that delve in and leave for a better life. And there is no real support other than the goodness of someones heart by chance.
    I think you should take OpenBravo's advice and read up on what Open Source is.
    I'm sure some open source developers on the more obscure projects might be hobbyists... but the vast majority are software professionals paid by some of the biggest outfits in the business. The development process is often no different from that of proprietary software. The only difference is the code is distributed along with the application. For many reasons that are well document elsewhere so I won't repeat here, this is a plus to the original developer as well as those who use the code.

    The core difference in the business models is open source changes the software industry from one based on assets, that can be held by a few, into a service that is delivered by many. It's a subtle but important difference and hopefully will lead to developers not having to continuously re-invent the wheel but instead use it as a basis to build something better.
    Actually DOS was bought from Seattle University - it's original name was QDOS - quick and dirty os, and look how little has change since. What's his name didn't patent Visicalc otherwise he'd have a monopoly on spreadsheets. Microsoft bought IE from spyglass. Apple copied their UI from Atari / Amiga / Xerox
    Early Windows versions owed a lot to DESQview and GEM too and there was the whole joint venture with IBM on OS/2 and buying the DEC VMS team to get NT off the ground
    All true Capt'n Midnight but I was trying to keep it simply ;)
    I would recommend Steven Levy's "Hackers" to anybody who would like to learn more about the early days of our computer industry!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Can I just ask here why the **** you're feeding the troll?


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