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Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 89288
yeah there was another court case over that, took 5 years to get microsoft to stop demanding a royalty for Dos for EVERY computer made by any manufacturer that was allowed to pre install DOS.the “PCs came with DOS
Dos wasn't free, The consumer had to pay for a copy of it no matter what OS they choose to run later on.
Today it's a little different , a handful of people have gotten refunds of $48 or so by returning windows. But PC's with preinstalled Linux aren't cheaper than windows ones
Why are business using windows ?
Inertial is the main reason.
Training - the time to train employees is expensive when you take into account loss of earning too. Just look at the number of organisations that aren't rolling out Vista yet. It's getting to the stage where going from XP/Office 200 to Vista/2007 might not be all that much more than going to OpenOffice. Also there are a lot of people out there who demand Microsoft apps because that's what they are used to , regardless of the technical merits or cost.
Terminal server licenses, mean that you can't save any money on microsoft apps by using linux clients. In fact if you use microsoft server apps then CAL's are a bitch anyway. And you can't run microsoft server apps unless you have the appropiate server license.0 -
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rasmasyean wrote: »but for that guy who said he’s gonna make his kids use ubuntu,.
Don't put words in my mouth! What I said was "My two 4 year olds don't know what Windows is yet and during the summer I'm building an old PC with Edubuntu on it just for them. They won't have any fear of Linux when they're older."
Where there does it say I'm gonna 'make them' use Ubuntu. Linux is the OS of choice for me - and that's what it's about - choice. The vast majority of people don't realise there is a choice so they are using Windows as the only option that they are aware of. The key phrase from my post was "They won't have any fear of Linux when they're older."
You say that like it's a fact. It's no more powerful (apart from using more power) than Linux. In fact imho Linux is more powerful because of that word I used above - choice. Anybody with the know-how can make it do anything they want. Try recoding Windows to streamline it for less powerful pcs - or to customise it for specific purposes - you can't.rasmasyean wrote: »more powerful hardware required to run Windows. Well, that’s because it simply is more powerfu
The Asus eeepc is running Linux for 2 reasons - 1. it's free and keeps the cost down and 2. Asus have customised the distro they chose for their product. That's just one example. For more examples have a look at the number of Ubuntu clones around - Mandriva, PCLinuxOS, LinuxMint, etc - and they're just customised general purpose distros. Then you have specific purpose distros - Edubuntu (education), Scibuntu (science), MoLinux (Castilla la Mancha local govt. purpose built distro), nUbuntu (network monitoring and penetration testing), Ubuntu Christian Edition (bible bashing), Ubuntu Satanic Edition (bible-basher bashing
).
Yet you say Windows is more powerful.0 -
Capt'n Midnight wrote: »First copy of windows 95 cost $300,000,000
the second copy cost 30c
It's because of the costs that old versions are retired. My Uncle was delighted to find the word processor in Works, because it was the same as the version of Word he used to use on a 486. The only difference was the defult file format had been changed one supposes to prevent inter-operability as there was no technical need to. The point here is that for many people the old version is perfectly adaquate and having to fork out money to buy and then train up on bloat ware doesn't go down well.
Had he bought a later version of word it would not have done anything extra that he needed, would have been slower more confusing and totally unnecessary.
If that's the case and you know you are going to not want any more...then by all means, cheaper / free / scaled-down...is prolly better...as long as you know that there is more out there but that you definately just don't need or want it. That is my point.
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You are the one suggesting proprietary software is just as cheap as open source so long as you just copy it from a friend and don't pay for licenses.
Hey, I’m just being a realist and looking at the world the way it is.
That’s one of the problems with some “open source fanatics” and do-gooders who prolly use that ubuntu Christian Edition or whatever too. The world ain’t so black and white. Many people wouldn’t buy much of these uber softwares anyway just because they can’t afford it and/or deem it totally not worth it. And these uber softwares bundle almost all known features since “data-storage” is so cheap that even if 100 ppl use a different 1% of the features, they can all use the same exact software! That’s hardly worth price for anyone for “home use” and “messing around”. But IF they DO get to use it and get familiar with it, overall the population will become more of a “skilled workforce” among others. And that benefits society AND the software companies in many ways!
You think this “free” open-source movement is so helpful to “Africans” or whatever 3rd world effort is in the radar? You think they are better off using Linux and “re-invented wheel substitutes” versus the Chinese who use Windows and all the high-end software there is as a result? First of all, the Chinese are one of those people who can’t afford these on a month’s (maybe year’s) salary. But they need it to survive and prosper. But if they do not have these in their factories…guess what? You will NOT have your $200 eeeeePCCCCC or whatever pedestal cheap computer you worship. :eek: Heck…there wouldn’t be those $400 name brand PC’s that license…Windows!!! This all gives even more people the option to use a computer and buy licensed PCs! Heck, my PC cost $1800 (not on discount because I built it). And it’s probably about as good as a $4000 Mac. Don’t worry though, once China gets their act together, there will be a time where they have to pay for Licenses in order to become better partners with the big players later on…if they make it that far. But in the meantime it benefits the whole.
There is a place for open-source, but just too much of it is re-invented wheels. If much of these talents is re-directed to making something NEW, or IMPROVING something, it would be much better. And maybe if some new product is good, it will be acquired by Microsoft, etc! And then the developer can use the money to work on alternative fuels! Much of the open-source effort is misplaced. The less African kids have ubuntu whatever edition, the more motive they will have to get Windows and all other “full” softwares to use and THAT will be better for them. Licenses are not an issue for these places. I bet many are already on this track.
I’ve used computers for a long time and I can say that there ARE some principles in copying software that people seem to follow. I don’t know about now since The Pirate Bay has hit 12 million users, but I suspect these are mostly music and videos. At least in the industrialized world...If they use it for profit, they have to pay. If it’s a single developer and someone likes and uses his stuff, they generally pay him if they can afford (usually it’s cheap anyway) and if they really like it, it’s customary to make an extra “donation”. Small company…if they really use it a lot, then they pay for it. Large company…forget it…it’s sometimes taboo to pay for it. e.g. I told friends I have a licensed Vista Ultimate 64 and they were like…”OMG you bought that sh!t??? What the hell is wrong with you!”…I was like “ No, No, well, a family member has MS connections and gave me one.” That explanation practically saved me from being crucified!
EDIT: I just priced that equivalent spec of Mac at $4500 instead. (I also forgot about my $250 in rebates which actually puts my PC at a mere $1550) jeeze rofl! China FTW!!!0 -
I don't worship. Not machine, man (Bill Gates in your case) or God(s).rasmasyean wrote: »whatever pedestal cheap computer you worship
I don't have onerasmasyean wrote: »But if they do not have these in their factories…guess what? You will NOT have your $200 eeeeePCCCCC
Well, I agreed MS Office was ubiquitous in businesses and its Outlook connection to the server Exchange server are also very (but less) common too BUT production planning for high tech firms (and this is an area I have a lot of experience in) – is an area I don't think you'll find MS! They've been buying lots of SME business software packages in the last 10 years but I don't think any of them were SAP, was it? I don't know what ASUS use (SAP is a good bet) but in the ERP world MS is small fry!
Ah, a gamer!rasmasyean wrote: »my PC cost $1800 (not on discount because I built it)
Obviously, from your arguments to date, it is NOT ... you get what you pay for after all! And If you built it, it cannot be of the quality the “Professionals” at Apple achieved!rasmasyean wrote: »And it’s probably about as good as a $4000 Mac.
Now, obviously I would like to believe you can build a good PC. Really I would! But the facts are stacked against you ... the bottom line is yours only cost $1800 while the mac is $4000... so it MUST be better!!! ????
What did MS with its huge leading role and near monopoly at home and in the office invent? MS-DOS was a copy of CP/M, Windows a copy of the Apple UI, word processors & spreadsheets were around before office - what brilliant ideas did piece MS come up with? Oh .. hold on I know... that "paper clip" guy?rasmasyean wrote: »There is a place for open-source, but just too much of it is re-invented wheels.
Or perhaps it was the biggest thing today in the world of computing ... the web? So did MS invent web browsers? no? what did they invent? And don't give me a list of USPTO numbers... you can get a patent from them for making a sandwich.
Initially perhaps, there was a lot of “re-inventing” in the OSS world but then most software development is re-inventing anyway. That is precisely why it shoudl be open source. So long as closed then people have to build from scratch all the time ... with open source people can just extend & improve. But the Open Source “movement” -as you call it ... Business Model I call it- had to rebuild the foundations.
As for vista your friends are right! You are now a user of one of the least used operating systems in the world. And you'll probably have a lot of problem getting new hardware & software that works You'd do better to install a nice linux distro finish that machine of yours properly. Mind you I don't know if there is a WoW port for linux 0 -
The way the world is depends on the perspective from which you look at it.rasmasyean wrote: »Hey, I’m just being a realist and looking at the world the way it is.
Does the phrase "straw man" mean anything to you?That’s one of the problems with some “open source fanatics” and do-gooders who prolly use that ubuntu Christian Edition or whatever too.
Not everyone uses Open Source because of fanatacism. I use it because it fits my needs better than proprietary software does. I find OpenOffice.org entirely adequate for the word processing and spreadsheet work I need to do. When I want to produce higher-quality documents, I use LaTeX. Running a large network, I couldn't function without tools like wireshark, nmap, netcat, nagios, cacti... you name it.
Best of all, if there's a bug in one of those tools, I have the source code so I can fix it myself - and have done so on a number of occasions.
You're arguing from the premise that Windows and "high-end" software is a better fit for third-world countries in the first place.You think this “free” open-source movement is so helpful to “Africans” or whatever 3rd world effort is in the radar? You think they are better off using Linux and “re-invented wheel substitutes” versus the Chinese who use Windows and all the high-end software there is as a result?
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. How does it benefit us to have third-world countries using pirated versions of commercial software rather than legitimate copies of open source software?First of all, the Chinese are one of those people who can’t afford these on a month’s (maybe year’s) salary. But they need it to survive and prosper. But if they do not have these in their factories…guess what? You will NOT have your $200 eeeeePCCCCC or whatever pedestal cheap computer you worship. :eek: Heck…there wouldn’t be those $400 name brand PC’s that license…Windows!!! This all gives even more people the option to use a computer and buy licensed PCs! Heck, my PC cost $1800 (not on discount because I built it). And it’s probably about as good as a $4000 Mac. Don’t worry though, once China gets their act together, there will be a time where they have to pay for Licenses in order to become better partners with the big players later on…if they make it that far. But in the meantime it benefits the whole.
Two things: first, wheels are being re-invented because (a) the original wheel is often deeply flawed to the point of being beyond repair (like the fundamentally broken security model that has underpinned so many versions of Windows), and (b) they are prohibitively expensive to begin with. Second, much of the open source software I use doesn't either doesn't have a commercial equivalent, or predates it: what commercial software do you propose I use instead of LaTeX? Wireshark? nmap?There is a place for open-source, but just too much of it is re-invented wheels. If much of these talents is re-directed to making something NEW, or IMPROVING something, it would be much better.
You're demonstrating your total misunderstanding of the open source process: if it's open, it can't be acquired. It remains open.And maybe if some new product is good, it will be acquired by Microsoft, etc!
Have you read enough to understand the nature of the philosophy you're arguing against? Have you read ESR's essays, starting with The Cathedral and the Bazaar?
Again you're demonstrating your ignorance: open software doesn't have a developer, it has a community.And then the developer can use the money to work on alternative fuels!
Yet again, you're (a) assuming that proprietary software is a better fit for the third world (without bothering to explain why), and (b) advocating piracy of commercial software.Much of the open-source effort is misplaced. The less African kids have ubuntu whatever edition, the more motive they will have to get Windows and all other “full” softwares to use and THAT will be better for them. Licenses are not an issue for these places. I bet many are already on this track.
I'd have a lot more respect for your perspective if it was at least internally consistent. As it is, you seem to advocate commercial software as being inherently superior to open source, but to abhor actually paying for it.I’ve used computers for a long time and I can say that there ARE some principles in copying software that people seem to follow. I don’t know about now since The Pirate Bay has hit 12 million users, but I suspect these are mostly music and videos. At least in the industrialized world...If they use it for profit, they have to pay. If it’s a single developer and someone likes and uses his stuff, they generally pay him if they can afford (usually it’s cheap anyway) and if they really like it, it’s customary to make an extra “donation”. Small company…if they really use it a lot, then they pay for it. Large company…forget it…it’s sometimes taboo to pay for it. e.g. I told friends I have a licensed Vista Ultimate 64 and they were like…”OMG you bought that sh!t??? What the hell is wrong with you!”…I was like “ No, No, well, a family member has MS connections and gave me one.” That explanation practically saved me from being crucified!
At least the open source movement is clear about how it works.
This forum isn't about Mac or PC hardware, and I fail to see how it's relevant to the discussion.EDIT: I just priced that equivalent spec of Mac at $4500 instead. (I also forgot about my $250 in rebates which actually puts my PC at a mere $1550) jeeze rofl! China FTW!!!
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Well, I agreed MS Office was ubiquitous in businesses and its Outlook connection to the server Exchange server are also very (but less) common too BUT production planning for high tech firms (and this is an area I have a lot of experience in) – is an area I don't think you'll find MS! They've been buying lots of SME business software packages in the last 10 years but I don't think any of them were SAP, was it? I don't know what ASUS use (SAP is a good bet) but in the ERP world MS is small fry!
You forgot you clairvoyant hat again! No one would suspect MS is known for automation…but they actually are presently trying to penetrate that at this moment…see…
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx
But a plant doesn’t operate in isolation. There’s an office setting that controls logistics, the business end..etc. And if you want to trickle it more down the line…trading, accounting...import export, etc. Anyway, how do you know they pay for all their “floor” softwares? If they are so well known for pirating Desktop stuff, why wouldn’t they add some machinery stuff where they are find it possible?Obviously, from your arguments to date, it is NOT ... you get what you pay for after all! And If you built it, it cannot be of the quality the “Professionals” at Apple achieved!
Now, obviously I would like to believe you can build a good PC. Really I would! But the facts are stacked against you ... the bottom line is yours only cost $1800 while the mac is $4000... so it MUST be better!!! ????
My Fraken-computer prolly isn’t certified and tested or has the best “air-flow” etc. Besides, it looks like the Apple store starts to kill your wallet as you start customizing too. :mad: But I have to do it so I can run the “applications” (including games). Yeah, I could buy a Dell XPS but it’s easy enough for a geek like me to have a decent chance to make it work well enough. And it doesn’t HAVE to be that reliable. Windows isn’t anyway. What did MS with its huge leading role and near monopoly at home and in the office invent? MS-DOS was a copy of CP/M, Windows a copy of the Apple UI, word processors & spreadsheets were around before office - what brilliant ideas did piece MS come up with? Oh .. hold on I know... that "paper clip" guy?
Or perhaps it was the biggest thing today in the world of computing ... the web? So did MS invent web browsers? no? what did they invent? And don't give me a list of USPTO numbers... you can get a patent from them for making a sandwich.
Initially perhaps, there was a lot of “re-inventing” in the OSS world but then most software development is re-inventing anyway. That is precisely why it shoudl be open source. So long as closed then people have to build from scratch all the time ... with open source people can just extend & improve. But the Open Source “movement” -as you call it ... Business Model I call it- had to rebuild the foundations.
Improvements, implementation of new ideas on top of base inventions, and the most important…marketing and selling it to the masses. BTW, this requires massive amounts of money…pretty tough for open-source business models I think. I don’t doubt there are some open-source gurus with there, by many are just hobbyists that delve in and leave for a better life. And there is no real support other than the goodness of someones heart by chance. Is this better than using professionals with their jobs at stake? Perhaps principally communism vs. capitalism? Maybe this can be argued forever, but I think majority of people work not out of love but out of fear. At most they work out of love for their family or money…but it’s not out of love for the work. I mean, I DO hope that we get to the point where resources are so easy to come by that we can all work for the community, like in Star Trek…but we just aren’t there yet…As for vista your friends are right! You are now a user of one of the least used operating systems in the world. And you'll probably have a lot of problem getting new hardware & software that works You'd do better to install a nice linux distro finish that machine of yours properly. Mind you I don't know if there is a WoW port for linux
You're not counting the illegal coppies in China.
And they "sold" 140 million http://www.crn.com/software/207402009 .
But how’d you guess about the problems??? OK OK, so I couldn’t even install it because the original installation disks couldn’t handle more than 3 GB of RAM so I had to install it with less and put more RAM in afterward. Took a few attempts to figure it was a "known issue" and it was very sloppy of MS. :mad: I bought all certified hardware and whatever "old" software wasn’t certified or didn’t work any more, I found alternatives. I got all my old non-certified games to work by looking on the internet for solutions . Mostly it’s related to old stuff but new stuff works great. And my computer is not slow although it is fairly higher end than average. It actually blue-screens only once in a while and less than my old XP. I might have messed my old XP up over time who knows, but I think overall Vista is more stable and speedy even as I run persistant stuff in the background including Folding@Home...
...ad opportunity...sorry
If anything DX10 graphics is pretty awesome and if you’re into this sort of thing it’s worth it to get it.
WoW actually works very well on linux last time I checked the linux sites. It’s amazing how “love” works so good when it comes to things like this…0 -
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Yeah well this is typically what is addressed by the ERPs I mention. But MS aren't big there either. Their purchase of the likes of Navision & Great Plains give them some business presence but they are far from being leaders... but these apps are aimed at the SME ... I suspect ASUS (the builders of the EEEPC) would probably be too big for these applications. They are most likely a SAP or Oracle customer.But a plant doesn’t operate in isolation. There’s an office setting that controls logistics, the business end..etc.
I think you should take OpenBravo's advice and read up on what Open Source is.I don’t doubt there are some open-source gurus with there, by many are just hobbyists that delve in and leave for a better life. And there is no real support other than the goodness of someones heart by chance.
I'm sure some open source developers on the more obscure projects might be hobbyists... but the vast majority are software professionals paid by some of the biggest outfits in the business. The development process is often no different from that of proprietary software. The only difference is the code is distributed along with the application. For many reasons that are well document elsewhere so I won't repeat here, this is a plus to the original developer as well as those who use the code.
The core difference in the business models is open source changes the software industry from one based on assets, that can be held by a few, into a service that is delivered by many. It's a subtle but important difference and hopefully will lead to developers not having to continuously re-invent the wheel but instead use it as a basis to build something better.
All true Capt'n Midnight but I was trying to keep it simplyActually DOS was bought from Seattle University - it's original name was QDOS - quick and dirty os, and look how little has change since. What's his name didn't patent Visicalc otherwise he'd have a monopoly on spreadsheets. Microsoft bought IE from spyglass. Apple copied their UI from Atari / Amiga / Xerox
Early Windows versions owed a lot to DESQview and GEM too and there was the whole joint venture with IBM on OS/2 and buying the DEC VMS team to get NT off the ground
I would recommend Steven Levy's "Hackers" to anybody who would like to learn more about the early days of our computer industry!0 -
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