Derry - Letterkenny - Sligo : Rail

Annatar

How long do we need to wait till they cop themselves on and stop ignoring the North West.

A nice bit of rail from Derry through Letterkenny to Sligo...and on to the Western rail corridor.....

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.



....

dmeehan

:rolleyes:

loyatemu

Annatar wrote: »

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

well if thats not a good enough reason to spend €1 billion+ I don't know what is!

icdg

Population density simply is not there for a rail line of this nature. The WRC will be a white elephant north of Athenry as is, if it is built. That's judging on the not-really-massive numbers using the Limerick Junction-Waterford line and likewise Ennis-Limerick and Ballybrophy-Limerick via Nenagh.

Rail is a MASS transport medium. It needs high densities, otherwise its not really viable.

As for running to Derry, would need Stormont and NITHC agreement to implement. The Belfast-Derry rail line is not exactly full to the brim either, in fact the bus is faster and more popular.

DWCommuter

Annatar wrote: »

How long do we need to wait till they cop themselves on and stop ignoring the North West.

A nice bit of rail from Derry through Letterkenny to Sligo...and on to the Western rail corridor.....

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.



....

Did you join just to post that?
Excuse me while I have a little chuckle. (Unless you are genuinely naieve. In that case I'll just snort and say no more.)

BendiBus

Annatar wrote: »

How long do we need to wait till they cop themselves on and stop ignoring the North West.

A nice bit of rail from Derry through Letterkenny to Sligo...and on to the Western rail corridor.....

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.



....

Michael Palin did a trip from Derry to Kerry for the telly once. What a pity nobody had your idea before then

Nostradamus

Annatar wrote: »

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

Why do you hate the people of the Midlands so much?

D.L.R.

This idea comes up a lot. Some champion it, some scoff at it. But it should definitely be a long term goal to (re)connect all the major cities in Ireland by reasonably direct rail. Obviously at the moment there is a lot of emphasis on roadbuilding which I suppose inevitably means underinvestment in rail. Hopefully rail will go through a similar expansion boom in due course.

Looking ahead to when the motorways are largely complete, and coupled with the rising population density of Ireland, I imagine it will eventually become a viable prospect to link Derry to Sligo by rail, amongst other routes. But many things have to happen before that, such as the interconnector tunnel, a successful western rail corridor, Cork commuter rail, 4-tracking at Kildare, etc.

We basically have a Victorian rail network as our base to work off, so realistically it must be modernised before its expanded further.

loyatemu

D.L.R. wrote: »

I imagine it will eventually become a viable prospect to link Derry to Sligo by rail, amongst other routes. But many things have to happen before that

the main thing that would have to happen would be for both towns to grow in size by a factor of at least 5. for that to happen you're probably talking about at least 50 years so its not worth even discussing now.

popebenny16

I think it's a runner myself. And yes, given the downturn in the economy, spending money and investing in infrastrure is a proven method of working through a slump.

Thumbs up!!!

serfboard

icdg wrote: »

The Belfast-Derry rail line is not exactly full to the brim either, in fact the bus is faster and more popular.

Presumably the bus is more popular because it is faster, instead of going all around the world for sport. (http://www.translink.co.uk/present/nir/belfast-londonderrymf1.pdf)

icdg wrote: »

Rail is a MASS transport medium. It needs high densities, otherwise its not really viable.

Which proves the point really. Belfast and Derry do have the population densities needed to sustain mass/rail transport, but unfortunately they are served by the most round-about rail system possible (except if it went via Kerry )

Nostradamus

popebenny16 wrote: »

I think it's a runner myself. And yes, given the downturn in the economy, spending money and investing in infrastrure is a proven method of working through a slump.

Thumbs up!!!

As long as it's part of a 5-year plan overseen by the Glenties Cute Hoor Collective marching behind a bagpiper holding up banners reading "Every New Yard of Luas is Another Knife in the Heart of the Children of Donegal"

Oh wait, I think that was the main story on TG4 last night. Nevermind.

loyatemu

well if we're going to indulge in wild fantasy, I'd say long term the thing to do is build a line (TGV maybe? or MagLev?!) from Dublin to Derry via Enniskillen with a spur to Sligo. Could be continued onto Letterkenny just to keep the Donegalites happy.

popebenny16

I'm actually quite serious about this.

there are 8000 lads who are mostly form the construction sector new on the Dole this month.

I remember looking at the Dole queues in the 80's in Ballymun and all the skills and manpower lined up every week. They all got jobs in the 90's, because someone up top copped on. Are we about to allow such value to trickle away on the boat and the plane once more?

You build your way out of recission. Those 8000 lads could rebuild the Nenagh line, for example, they could quad track Drougeda to Howth Junction and allow a proper service Dublin to Belfast. God knows, they could even build the interconnector - or several of them.

Instead, they'll sod off to London to build their railways for the Olympics.

Annatar

Without viable transportation links all along the west (inc Power and broadband infrastructure) the entire area will slowly decline. Ermmmm decline further....

Nothing against the midlands ... just The Pale

Letterkenny has roughly the same population as Sligo.... no enough?! then lets scrap all rail lines except for say Galway to Dublin and back down to Cork.

Connecting Derry City to the South by rail via Letterkenny/Sligo opens up alot more possibilities.
A quick guesstimate a year ago I got on this was roughly 400 mil for track, lines rolling stock and stations.
Cheap at twice the price

Calina

One of the things which irritates me about Ireland is the lack of planning for the future and a tendency to plan for the present.

I think one of the problems is a lack of vision inherent in the country. You *could* argue in favour of building better rail connections from Sligo to Derry on the grounds that it would form part of a comprehensive national planning strategy. We know the last time they tried to do this in the country it was a bit messy but in principle it's not outlandish to do the "Build and They Will Come" bit too.

After the poison that was the WRC discussions I'm unwilling to get too caught up on this but I would be warying of dismissing this out of hand as being unnecessary until it's necessary per se. I was living in Brussels when Luas was being discussed and the overwhelming impression that I got from this is that we have a tendency not to plan for the future but to do as little as we can get away with doing now.

I am disappointed that major infrastructure projects in Ireland seem to spend so long in planning that they are practically out of date by the time they get done.

You could make a case for putting in some light local rail not unlike the French TER network in the areas concerned pending engineering considerations. Unfortunately, I suspect it will never happen.

Calina

Annatar wrote: »

Connecting Derry City to the South by rail via Letterkenny/Sligo opens up alot more possibilities.
A quick guesstimate a year ago I got on this was roughly 400 mil for track, lines rolling stock and stations.
Cheap at twice the price

You might see it that way but what sort of track, what sort of lines, what sort of rolling stock, who's running the system?

I'm always nervous of guesstimates. Don't get me wrong - in principle I think it's an interesting idea and full of possibilities but I don't believe it should be seen in isolation but as part of a greater scheme to potentially reverse the damage caused by the run to Dublin causing massive armies of commuters, etc. You know that to get jobs to places like Letterkenny and even Cork, you need infrastructure that just isn't there. I have listened to MDs of companies in Cork complain bitterly that they can't get a transatlantic link into Cork Airport, for example and I know that there are major issues relating to comms provisions.

What popebenny16 says about skills going to waste is interesting too. The assumption is that they are from construction; my view is that they are from residential. It may not be immediately appropriate to shift them to a major infrastructure project.

Annatar

@Calina,
yeah It would be lovely to get a politician with an all island vision of what could be, and the drive mixed with persuasiveness to get it done.

Why pour all investment into the eastcoast and then whine about it taking 20 million hours to get to work in the morning on the same road etc that everyother poor unfortunate uses

Annatar

Calina wrote: »

You might see it that way but what sort of track, what sort of lines, what sort of rolling stock, who's running the system?
...
I'm always nervous of guesstimates.
...

It was taken from the upper end of existing expenditure on opening new track in Co Sligo per mile etc.... if I remember correctly.

Annatar

But yeah.... guesstimates are notoriously unreliable. Still! double it and its still pretty much ok.
The amount of money to be sourced from crossborder funds, EU and NI/UK
not to mention a begging bowl to the US....

Calina

Dublin is problematic in that it has here-and-now problems which need to be addressed. Unfortunately, there is no clear direction on how best to address them and as such things will get worse for a while I think.

Where I have a major problem is that the "them and us" approach to funding and planning between Dublin and the regions is highly divisive as can already been seen in this thread. Funding will need to go into Dublin the short term in order to sort out some of the immediate problems. A northwestern rail link is a long term plan.

Annatar

Maybe "Goats Dont Shave" had the right idea.

1 Big Wall.... (will help the construction industry)
Multiple casinos.... (again more work for construction industry, plus hospitality sector)
Chicken ranches.... (Boost to Farming)


...

..

Annatar

Seriously, Donegal needs some support! Harney blatently ignored it when it came to employment and now is twisting the scalpel when it comes to health.

We need infrastructure to get employment rolling.

Otherwise whats the point of being part of the Republic?

I mean... We'd be better of as the Republic of Tir Chonnail*, Join the EU, get direct funding from there.

Hell, make a deal with the US for a couple of billion... lease Lough Swilly out as a deep sea navy port.

Very favourable terms to US industries.


*Kingdom of Tir Chonnail either.... as longs its me thats ruler

Calina

Okay,

here I have a problem. You cannot suggest a major infrastructure project such as you put forward above and then say it's all about one region which is underpopulated and under-resourced.

While there is a requirement for improved infrastructure, it and its benefits cannot be seen in isolation from the rest of the country. The vision you suggest is defective in many ways in that it is dependent on hand-outs, suggests nothing productive which the region needs to sell; depending on something like a US naval base is non-sustainable.

If you came up and said that improved comms structures would enable you to create a wealth generating industry such as software or financial trading rather than looking for what are effectively government hand outs, you'd have a better chance of progress.

You stand a better chance of getting industry in if you focus like Cork did with the pharmas. This "We need something" is completely counterproductive and seen in that light, if you can't explain how improved infrastructure such as a rail link to Sligo could be leveraged for jobs/wealth creation then you're missing some building blocks.

Polar101

Calina wrote: »

One of the things which irritates me about Ireland is the lack of planning for the future and a tendency to plan for the present.

Funny, I find this to be completely the opposite. There is always some vague long term plan (especially in the infrastructure), but eventually everything gets delayed and put forward.

The problem with long-term strategy planning is pretty obvious - I'll draw up a national development plan for, say, 2045, saying that in 2045 this and that will be developed like this. It's going to sound great, and not many people would disagree. It might not have an awful lot to do with reality, though.

After reading these boards for a few months, I've always wondered how people are always unhappy with the current infrastructure, but then find most plans to improve it wrong or unnecessary - unless it's something that directly affects their daily life. Each to their own, I guess.

As for the northwest, clearly developing a "remote" corner of this small island would have some benefits that would mean it's not a complete waste..

ga2re2t

Annatar, try thinking in baby steps. We all have crazy ideas now and then but we usually realise that they're crazy an so we hold back a little bit. Before posting something like what you posted, step back and try to see things from a national perspective (and not a "I want one cos everyone has one" approach) and also from a realistic perspective. Did you ever think about putting together a few facts and figures. It only takes about 10 minutes Googling and Wikipedia-ing to come up with stuff:
Populations:
Derry 91,000
Letterkenny 18,000
Ballybofey 4,000 (generously rounded up)
Donegal town 2,500
Sligo 20,000

Distances
Derry - Letterkenny: 30 km
Letterkenny - Ballybofey: 21 km
Ballybofey - Donegal: 30 km (but across rugged terrain)
Donegal - Sligo: 60 km
Total: about 150 km

Co. Donegal has a large population of about 150,000, but going on the figures above it must be very spread out into rural housing and villages? A Letterkenny town councillor has suggested planning for a population of 50,000 by 2020 (!!!?).

A Derry-Letterkenny link will almost certainly make sense someday, but that day won't be for another 15 odd years or so. Letterkenny-Sligo will never, in our lifetime anyways, make sense. The best south County Donegal can hope for is increased investment in the Dublin-Sligo line, and this is where your efforts in lobbying and making suggestions should probably lie for the next 10 years. All other ideas will just fall on deaf ears.

To put things into context for you, Tallaght in south County Dublin has a population of about 65,000 and yet does not have a decent rail link (don't even dare suggest that the Luas is a decent rail link!). The same goes for Navan (25,000). The most important conference destination in Ireland is Killarney (17,000) and it has a sh**te rail service.

dermo88

Take your pick, but while I think its a pie in the sky idea, I would never be building it by that route. Oh and BTW, I despise the Western Rail corridor to the point that if it is built north of Athenry....before Navan gets a rail link, I will give up any hope that Ireland can ever be run properly for the benefits of all, instead of a bunch of inbreeds in the depths of Mayo.

LOGICALLY....take the direct route

Derry-Letterkenny is a branch line...a commuter route

Derry-Strabane-Omagh-Monaghan-Navan-Dublin....thats what should have been built in the 1850's-1900's era, but it was'nt built, its not there, and it never will be.

Theres plenty of stuff written on this. Nice topic. Thats all it is, a nice topic. Nice idea, but the idea of a European Navy Aircraft Carrier called "Eire" is also just that. A nice idea.

Schuhart

Calina wrote: »

One of the things which irritates me about Ireland is the lack of planning for the future and a tendency to plan for the present.

I actually don’t think this catches what we do. There is planning for the future, and capacity is put in place in advance of demand. The problem is more that the capacity is not put in place where demand can or will occur.

Calina wrote: »

I have listened to MDs of companies in Cork complain bitterly that they can't get a transatlantic link into Cork Airport

And hopefully they appreciate that the lack of a transatlantic link into Cork Airport isn’t because of a lack of investment in regional airports or, indeed, the lack of political will historically in making what can only be described as manic efforts to prevent transatlantic services going to Dublin.

Before the last election, enough money was thrown at the non-ex-Aer Rianta airports (apologies on the awkward phrase) to leave Cork Airport debt free, if that was the policy priority. However, the actual priority was to fund airports that, combined, would serve fewer passengers than Cork and have less potential to contribute to meaningful regional development.

If Knock Airport could, however briefly, hold on to a transatlantic service, then we can only imagine the potential in Cork. So what’s Cork doing with an airport on top of a hill with a shorter runway than Knock’s? Its not because of a lack of planning form the future, and more because of a lack of any substantial thinking about what planning for the future means. The ‘build it and they will come’ philosophy heads off into a void where putting any old thing anywhere is justified as a visionary step

Calina wrote: »

This "We need something" is completely counterproductive and seen in that light, if you can't explain how improved infrastructure such as a rail link to Sligo could be leveraged for jobs/wealth creation then you're missing some building blocks.

Spot on and this is exactly what those of us who give out about ‘this sort of thing’ are saying. Yet, when we intervene in discussions on things like the WRC the response we tend to get is ‘you want everything in Dublin’ which doesn’t actually address the concerns we are raising. You have put your finger on it here. Jobs are not a commodity produced in some factory in Idaho, that just need to be transported to Donegal. If jobs dry up in Donegal, its not because some Minister needs to drive a truckload of jobs into that county without delay.

An amount of the problem is in this county mindset. I don’t know why, in particular, we should base our identities around the administrative divisions we inherited from the British or expect them to continue to make sense in the 21st century. But we do, and that leads to this kind of shapeless ‘rail for Donegal’ idea. Would it do any good? Probably not, as if rail was really a magnet for development we’d surely see all kinds of things gravitating towards the underused rail lines in Mayo and Sligo.

But its in Donegal, I’m in Donegal, any old thing for Donegal. A US naval base for Donegal.

(Which. if I can crave an indulgence, reminds me of the old rhyme

My sister sells condoms to sailors,
My dad pricks them all with a pin,
My mother performs the abortions,
Oh, God, how the money pours in.)

gjim

You build your way out of recission.

No you can not. The Japanese, for example, have been trying to do this for the last 15 years and all they've achieved is to increase their debt to GDP ratio to 180% having filled the country with barely used infrastructure which is costing a fortune to maintain. Beautifully constructed bridges and roads in underpopulated areas do not boost an economy.

To be honest the kind of "we get nothing" bleating from many leaders, politicians and the public in places like Donegal, Mayo and some of the border counties demonstrate such a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics that it's hardly surprising that they are relatively poor.

Championing rent seeking behaviour is impoverishing. The regional policy equivalent of sitting with a cup beside an ATM begging for spare change is a less than zero-sum exercise and is not the way to create wealth for a region.

Nostradamus

Schuhart wrote: »

I don’t know why, in particular, we should base our identities around the administrative divisions we inherited from the British or expect them to continue to make sense in the 21st century.

The GAA. The 'county colours' mindset has done more to destroy the Irish national Irish identity of "one nation - one people - working together" more so than any other factor. It is mainly rooted in that.

And this mindset is taken to extremist levels in places like Donegal. Being Irish means nothing to most of them up there.

Hotblack Desiato

Annatar wrote: »

Otherwise whats the point of being part of the Republic?

I mean... We'd be better of as the Republic of Tir Chonnail*, Join the EU, get direct funding from there.

Tempting idea. Of course it just makes the idea of spending Dublin taxes in Dublin even more appealing...

Nostradamus wrote:

The 'county colours' mindset has done more to destroy the Irish national Irish identity of "one nation - one people - working together" more so than any other factor. It is mainly rooted in that.

+1.

And this mindset is taken to extremist levels in places like Donegal. Being Irish means nothing to most of them up there.

Is that why half the cars there have yellow plates? :rolleyes:

gjim, nail on head, nail on head.

Mint Sauce

in theory, its a good idea, but then so are most ideas, unfortunatly, there propbably would not be the demand or the population to make profitable servie from derry to sligo via letterkenny, probably a better idea would be to just up date the line from belfast to derry, or even consider re routeing it, with a spur or an extenion terminating in letterkenny

unfortunatly you are never going to build a rail network to suit every route or every person, unless you want to run it at a loss, id love my self to jump on a train in sligo, and go to galway, letterkenny, derry, eniskillian, etc, but at the same time, i dont want to go on an extended tour to get there, the most direct routes are there to suit the population, and those deamed profitable

ga2re2t wrote: »

Distances
Derry - Letterkenny: 30 km
Letterkenny - Ballybofey: 21 km
Ballybofey - Donegal: 30 km (but across rugged terrain)
Donegal - Sligo: 60 km
Total: about 150 km

continuing with an idea good in therory, if you look to your left travling most of the ballybofey/donegal route you will see where the old railway line was, identifyable by either a ledge on the side of the mountain through barnsmore gap, and as a raised level mound through a lot of the feilds not already built on, am sure similar sights can be seen around other parts of the country where there was once a thriving railway network

ardmacha

where there was once a thriving railway network

Alas there was never a thriving railway network in most of these parts, only marginal enterprises which hardly ever paid for themselves.

The GAA. The 'county colours' mindset has done more to destroy the Irish national Irish identity

So the GAA has destroyed Irish national identity, now I've heard everything!

Transport policy and planning in this country does not have clearly stated principles, so it is any surprise that people don't see the basis for levels of expenditure in different places.

Ham'nd'egger

ardmacha wrote: »

Alas there was never a thriving railway network in most of these parts, only marginal enterprises which hardly ever paid for themselves.

Of all the counties of Ireland, Donegal had by a long way the least standard gauge track; a few miles on the GNR serving Ballyshannon and Bundoran and a small section towards Derry, with a stop in Lifford. I am unsure of a track mileage but I would say it would be less than 40 miles. It had two narrow gauge lines, the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway and the County Donegal Railway; the contrasting fortunes of each of them has been the subject of many books and thesis.

The "Swilly" is still alive as a bus company and is one of the oldest public transport companies in Europe. It's railway always struggled for business and it was renowned for cutting corners. It began to lose ground when emigration and recession began to hit; many of it's lines being curtailed even before World War 2 and being replaced with buses. The DCR lasted until 1959 and was arguably the first rail company in the world to pioneer the use of diesel railcars. Run for decades by a enterprising man called Henry Forbes, for many years it was profitable, being well run and reliable yet flexible to change with it's trade. It only began to struggle when cars became more affordable and roads in Donegal improved in the 50's, it closing in 1959.

popebenny16

Yeah, well, when you're talking of one billion euro for two motorways and a railway line from Meath to Dublin you do have to ask who exactly is running the bloody asylum. In those terms, the O/P's idea isnt that bad. If the economy keeps heading south the only way those motorways and railway will be used is is they relocate the Navan Dole office to Ashtown.

jjbrien

What would be a better option in this case if Irish Rail ran busses that connected with the train from Donnegal/LetterKenny to Sligo like what NSB does in Norway the buss only stops ar major towns and links up the the train. But then in this country they will never cop on to intragrated transport.

invincibleirish

popebenny16 wrote: »

Yeah, well, when you're talking of one billion euro for two motorways and a railway line from Meath to Dublin you do have to ask who exactly is running the bloody asylum.

Yeah there is no doubt poor planning is responsible for the situation in Meath where there is a whole bunch of Motorways close to each other, but that doesnt mean its right, However building unneccessary Motorways to the northwest and railways between small population centres like the OP suggests would be a continuation of the madness.

I think if the OP is serious then instead of Building the line why not plan for it to be built? using Cork as an example with the Midleton line, Cork Co.Co. planned for Carrigtwohill & Midleton to expand their populations massively, so that in time the numbers are justified so its obvious that the line has to be re-opened.

maybe if the crazy priest and the rest of the WRC copped on to this idea and instead of demanding it be built now, they pushed for some sensible planning from the relevant county councils, in 20-30 years time there would be a compelling argument to rebuild the WRC. but oh no it had to be done now, ahead of the Metro, Interconnector, the aforementioned Midleton line being re-opened etc., what does that tell you?

But i digress, maybe in years to come Donegal might get rail with a connection form Letterkenny to Derry if economic growth is stimulated in the north and Donegal can act as a suburban hinterland to Derry rather then looking to Dublin for connections.

Annatar

Lemmy see, so basically, there isnt enough businesses in Donegal to warrant good infrastructure?
Course not having good infrastructure is a deterrent to businesses.
Not only lack of rail... lack of good broadband, sufficient electrical power for industry...

The county with the highest unemployment...

Ye should be proud of your county be it Dublin Cork or Donegal. Yes take a national view point - "for the good of all". But there comes a time when blatant lack of investment is just purely taking the pi**!

Why purely focus on commuter rail... industry could easily make use of a rail link Sligo-Letterkenny-Derry.

Not to mention tourists


Ok there are areas on the east coast that need more infrastructure, but by focusing solely on the east coast, more jobs go there, more people are forced to leave the west coast and move east to make a living, making things worse for the east coasts transport infrastructure.


The whole bit about US naval bases was only in the event of Donegal's freedom from the Republic...hehehe

Annatar

Is there any chance that Donegal's mad unemployment rate (celtic tiger my ...!) and its isolation are in anyway related???

And whats a good cure for isolation? a good transport infrastructure.

Annatar

invincibleirish wrote: »

....
But i digress, maybe in years to come Donegal might get rail with a connection form Letterkenny to Derry if economic growth is stimulated in the north and Donegal can act as a suburban hinterland to Derry rather then looking to Dublin for connections.

So screw fostering industry and employment in Donegal itself, lets just be the workforce for another jurisdiction.


Hell, why not look to the North! we have more incommon with our fellow Ulstermen/women that with D4'heads

paulm17781

Annatar wrote: »

Is there any chance that Donegal's mad unemployment rate (celtic tiger my ...!) and its isolation are in anyway related???

And whats a good cure for isolation? a good transport infrastructure.

And have you considered that the isolation and lack of infrastructure are down to the rugged terrain which makes it difficult to build? It all goes back to Geography, not D4 people hating you, that's a fallacy. Now, with the rugged terrain it would cost a huge amount of money to build, then run an unprofitable service such as what you are suggesting. You may disagree with this so I will personally donate 10% of the cost if you can raise the other 90% and get necessary planning permission.

Annatar

Parts of Donegal are pretty rugged, but not everywhere.

Besides, if memory serves around 1900, there was approx 112 miles of track in Donegal, Its not as if the entire sligo-Letterkenny-Derry route would be greenfield.

Nahh in truth, we know Dublin should get a good slice of money for infrastructure etc , its just exasperating that Donegal gets damnall.


If we say nothing, we get nothing, if we do say something we get a cry of "ah you are just a few mad mountain men, living in a quaint county we sometimes like to visit, (not by rail) but not worth listening to"

paulm17781

Annatar wrote: »

Parts of Donegal are pretty rugged, but not everywhere.

I'll admit to not knowing the area but I believe it is not flat. You need flat land for a railway or a load of bridges / tunnels. This requires significant cost to develop. Without population density you will never get this. If sustainable development were to pop up with urban centres along the route, that is the only way you'll get rail in those parts.

Annatar wrote: »

Besides, if memory serves around 1900, there was approx 112 miles of track in Donegal, Its not as if the entire sligo-Letterkenny-Derry route would be greenfield.

Most of that was tram lines IIRC. Not suitable for heavy rail and as stated, the land isn't really suitable for rail.

Rail is by no means a reason for investment, if your proposed line got built tomorrow, it doesn't mean industry will pop up. What sort of demand do you expect on Sligo - Letterkenny - Derry? Honestly, have you done any analysis on this? It would be a token service with low usage and nothing to support it.

If Donegal needs infrastructure, the roads should be updated and effort made to increase population density in urban centres. Otherwise, it'll never happen.

Annatar

Sligo and Derry have rail already, Im just joining the dots through Letterkenny which has virtually the same pop as sligo town (and there's not discussion about stopping that service.

The population is there, both in Letterkenny+ county, Sligo and most definately Derry City.
And it is a case of IF you build it the tourists will come.

As for terrain, I know the road from Sligo to Letterkenny very well. There is nothing terribly mountainous about it.


Laying the issue of rail in a siding... It still doesnt get around thefact Donegal has been repeatedly ignore when it comes to investment in infrastructure of any type. Its unemployment rate bares this out

paulm17781

Annatar wrote: »

Sligo and Derry have rail already, Im just joining the dots through Letterkenny which has virtually the same pop as sligo town (and there's not discussion about stopping that service.

Pre-existing lines. They would never be built today.

Annatar wrote: »

The population is there. And it is a case of IF you build it the tourists will come.

No doubt. Could I see your reports and case studies on this? I see no proof for it and I see little to show that rail is even a medium used by tourists over air / coach. If there was any basis for this, it would be considered.

Annatar wrote: »

As for terrain, I know the road from Sligo to Letterkenny very well. There is nothing terribly mountainous about it.

I'm not talking terribly mountainous. Roads can be whatever way they want, rail has to be flat or have gentle gradients. The trains in the north west would be like a roller coaster with the terrain that is there.

Annatar wrote: »

Laying the issue of rail in a siding... It still doesnt get around thefact Donegal has been repeatedly ignore when it comes to investment in infrastructure of any type. Its unemployment rate bares this out

Perhaps, personally I think it is an unpleasant place for business aa it has little connections to the rest of the country, mainly due to it's terrain making this difficult. I don't doubt your intentions or your motives but if you are serious about this, drop the pipe dream tourism stuff. There is nothing to suggest this is true. This isn't the railway boom, an empty train will not bring development and tourists. If you really want to do something, try to get sustainable development built in Donegal. You'll get nothing without that. I don't mean to be dismissive, this is just economics. Urban centres and high density population are the only way to get rail connections these days. You'd be better off getting good roads built, not a pointless railway with no demand.

munchkin_utd

Annatar wrote: »

As for terrain, I know the road from Sligo to Letterkenny very well. There is nothing terribly mountainous about it.

Errrrr, Barnsmore Gap? That was some MONSTER of a road building project to put the new road in there up in the hills.

Annatar wrote: »

Laying the issue of rail in a siding... It still doesnt get around thefact Donegal has been repeatedly ignore when it comes to investment in infrastructure of any type.

Utter falsehood that and you should know it.
a) IN Donegal you already have a pretty decent link from Sligo to Leterkenny, including the Barnsmore project, leterkenny bypass, Donegal By pass, Ballyshannon By Pass
b) IN donegal the NRA has 15 Major national roads projects in planning/ constructed http://www.nra.ie/mapping/index.jsp?county=Donegal
c) To donegal, N3 upgrade to Motorway, N3 upgrades north of Virginia, N2 upgrade, N2 link to M1, 500+ million euro Dual Carraige way project from Augnacloy to Leterkenny, ALL contributing to easier access to Donegal from the rest of the country.

So heck, feel all upset about Donegal being ignored if you want, but the plain fact of the matter is that Donegal is benefiting from BILLIONS of euro of investment in road infrastructure, both inside, and on the way to the county.

ardmacha

According to this
http://www.buseireann.ie/site/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/expressway/64.pdf

there are 7 expressway buses daily from Sligo towards Letterkenny/Derry.
This suggests a demand of 350 people. Assume that a train would increase demand you would get perhaps 1000 daily. Hardly an economic proposition.

Richard

Annatar wrote: »

So screw fostering industry and employment in Donegal itself, lets just be the workforce for another jurisdiction.


Hell, why not look to the North! we have more incommon with our fellow Ulstermen/women that with D4'heads

Why not?! We'll let you in, if you let us build all our second homes there. We'll even let you speak Irish these days!

dermo88

Annatar

First when I see the word "Ye should", I immediately switch off. Thats dialect English. I will utterly ignore it. It looks parochial, primitive, backward and parish pump. I am not condemning you, but I am merely pointing out a minor defect on how you and your ideas will be perceived.

Second, please refer to the Leaving Certificate geography textbook dealing with regions, and regional policies. Every country has something called a "Core", and a "Periphery".

Third, travel broadens the mind, I advise doing some before asking any further for railways and the likes. Donegal is not exactly poor by European standards, and there are measures that can or should be taken to bring it forward. A railway is not even 5% of the solution. Some travel around some "Core" and "Peripheral" regions will show you where transport links exist. In "Core" regions you have railways, motorways, jobs, higher costs, higher salaries, and these exist because of supply, demand and economies of scale.

Fourth, feel free to join your fellow Ulstermen in Stormont. It means you won't be a burden on the taxpayer in Dublin, and London can bail you out. Who knows, they might built you that railway. Good luck comrade


I hope I have assisted you in explaining how things work in peripheral regions. There are plenty of different cases around the world to compare and contrast. When you have done that, then argue a case for Donegal based on rational thinking instead of illogical emotion.

DWCommuter

paulm17781 wrote: »

And have you considered that the isolation and lack of infrastructure are down to the rugged terrain which makes it difficult to build? It all goes back to Geography, not D4 people hating you, that's a fallacy. Now, with the rugged terrain it would cost a huge amount of money to build, then run an unprofitable service such as what you are suggesting. You may disagree with this so I will personally donate 10% of the cost if you can raise the other 90% and get necessary planning permission.

Holy ****!!!! Paul M is becoming the "you know who" (actually you probably don't) of Boards.ie.;) Only joking.

Paul has pretty much outlined the engineering feats required and how the figures won't stack up. I have to admit, I originally came on here and had a laugh at the OP. I should apologise to the OP (Sorry), because they have been steadfast and polite amid much negativity. I wouldn't have lasted that long without inviting a ban. However Munchkin utd has delivered a killer blow with the list of road projects that benefit Donegal on a local and national level. I travel to Donegal regularly and have done since I was a child. I remember the Barnsmore gap when it was literally a bog road (and was until quite recently). Even the trip up the N3 or N4 just to reach the county was a feat in itself. But thats changing very quickly now and its clear to see that the main access routes to the county are being upgraded along with the link between Donegal town and Letterkenny. The only blip on that road investment is the N56 taking the nearly coastal route towards killybegs, glenties,dunglow, gweedore and falcarragh. That road needs major work and very quickly, beacuse these towns, though not big in size, are very isolated. The funny thing is most of them were served by rail in the past. This part of Donegal is starting to die and its sad to look at. A railway is not required to save it. A decent and safe road will go a long way to helping. In railway terms the following post from jjbrien I think, makes brilliant sense to me and is along the lines of something that I have suggested while with RUI, but I think a ticket machine and boogie took precedence.;)

What would be a better option in this case if Irish Rail ran busses that connected with the train from Donnegal/LetterKenny to Sligo like what NSB does in Norway the buss only stops ar major towns and links up the the train. But then in this country they will never cop on to intragrated transport.

With decent roads linking railheads to less populated areas, express and service buses can really open up rail travel for Donegal. Its similar to the concept of feeder buses to suburban stations. But they have to be dedicated services for Sligo train station and we must not be afraid to subsidise them. Derry station is not worth the hassle as Translink don't give a damn about the service there.

If the original narrowguage railways were still in Donegal and in need of major investment, I'd be all for it. The Swiss retained theirs and look at them now. Wonderfully run lines. But we ripped ours up a long time ago and at the time it made sense. Remember that hindsight is 20 20 vision. I think the whole WRC thing is a bit like a disease that spread around action groups. The natural extension from Sligo was Donegal and then onwards. Its a concept driven by fantasy rather than reality. Its fair to say that back in the golden age of building railways, when challenges were the forte, some wealthy lord thought about it, talked to an engineer who pointed towards Ben Bulbin (for example) and then let the idea filter away. If it was a good idea that couldve made money, those 19th century pioneers would have done it. Donegal needs a lot of things to help it, but it doesn't need an expensive rail link and it doesn't need to get entangled in biblical, "build it and they will come" baloney. It needs improved road infrastructure on its western side and integrated public transport etc. But in saying that, so do many counties in Ireland. Donegal isn't particularly special, just different in terms of its geographical postion.

Schuhart

Annatar wrote: »

So screw fostering industry and employment in Donegal itself, lets just be the workforce for another jurisdiction.

Indeed, or for another part of the country. I rather think that's the point. If we lose the county fixation, then it boils down to why we'd bother talking about rail to Donegal when we already have underused rail lines in Mayo only waiting for population to arrive.

Which I think has already been pointed out. If rail is such a strong magnet for development, why hasn't stuff congregated around existing underused lines in other counties?

Annatar wrote: »

Hell, why not look to the North! we have more incommon with our fellow Ulstermen/women that with D4'heads

Perhaps, although presumably then you need to explain why you think anyone else should particularly give a toss about Donegal.

But, just to get a sense of how illusory your sense of neglect is, consider how Donegal has its very own airport, which obtained Government support, and how Government support has also been put in to Derry Airport. In fact, if you look at CSO figures you'll find that Donegal households pay €416 million in tax, but get €690 million back in social transfers (these include the imputed value of some non-cash benefits which accrue to households such as secondary and university education, free medicines and free fuel and transport for the elderly). That's a net gain of €270 million - which means not just that Donegal is a net recipient of Government support, but that its actually the highest net recipient of Government support.

Donegal may be a peripheral area, but it most certainly does get considerable central government support. If you're not happy with the outcome, it may just be that your expectations are unrealistic.