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Mpeg-2 to Mpeg-4 in FRANCE

  • 04-03-2008 8:35pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭


    The article below refers to the ban (yes, by law) on the sale of exclusively analogue tv sets from today, 4 March 08 in France. All tv sets must henceforth have intergrated Mpeg-2 decoders.......
    AND
    from 1 December these 'new' sets will also become obsolete as all tv sets must have integrated Mpeg-4 decoders.......

    Recently our own Minister Ryan said he expected our add-on DTT decoders would cost around 100 euros so it would seem that Ireland is adopting Mpeg-4....(one can buy MPEg-2 decoders for around 40 euros)



    Les téléviseurs sans récepteur TNT intégré interdits à la vente
    www.01net.com


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 339 ✭✭taung


    I think that it is impossible for any EU member state to ban any product that is legally sold in any other EU member state. (A little hitch that our Green Minister for the Environment discovered a few months ago when he attempted to ban the sale of old style, filament light bulbs.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭a bientot


    Perhaps so but this is supported throughout the E.U. by the Commission and all governments that adopt measures to advance digital terrestrial television will receive great encouragement from Bruxelles...

    We should also be aware of the fact that the vast majority of Irish tv viewers subscribe to direct satellite or cable so effectively all they need is a tv monitor that enables them to receive HD tv....... the obligatory set top decoder does the rest.
    DTT subscribers surely should ensure that their tv set should be Mpeg-4 (decoder integrated within the tv set) enabled to permit reception of HD........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    taung wrote: »
    I think that it is impossible for any EU member state to ban any product that is legally sold in any other EU member state. (A little hitch that our Green Minister for the Environment discovered a few months ago when he attempted to ban the sale of old style, filament light bulbs.)

    a bientot simply didn't fully understand the laws in france.
    Its not allowed to sell TV sets without an dtt tuner. I you buy an TV without dtt tuner you get an bundled cheap dtt tuner aditionally. There is no law which force manufactorers to integrate all components into one case.
    Since december its not allowed to use the label "HD ready" for TV sets without an mpeg4 dtt tuner. For TV sets with an mpeg2 dtt tuner its not allowed to advertise with HD ready. Thats all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Neotion module allows MPEG4 on MPEG2 TV or set box, but not HD.

    As long as a TV has SCART (SD) or HDMI (HD) it need not have any tuner, as long as suitable box used.

    HiFi separates. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    maxg wrote: »
    a bientot simply didn't fully understand the laws in france.
    Its not allowed to sell TV sets without an dtt tuner. I you buy an TV without dtt tuner you get an bundled cheap dtt tuner aditionally. There is no law which force manufactorers to integrate all components into one case.
    Since december its not allowed to use the label "HD ready" for TV sets without an mpeg4 dtt tuner. For TV sets with an mpeg2 dtt tuner its not allowed to advertise with HD ready. Thats all.

    Rubbish! Look at the law: (Article 19)
    http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000248397&dateTexte=

    It requires all televisions sold in France by manufacturers to distributors from the date specified to be DTT capable, and within 12 months of the date, televisions sold to consumers must be DTT capable. The idea of retailers bundling set top boxes with non DTT capable TVs to comply with the law is total rubbish - it would be stupid for the entire industry to operate that way. And HDTVs will have to have MPEG4 DTT receivers.

    An HDTV without an MPEG4 (ie HD capable DTT) receiver is a con that in 2008 one will only get away with in countries inhabited by moron consumers!

    .probe


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    taung wrote: »
    I think that it is impossible for any EU member state to ban any product that is legally sold in any other EU member state. (A little hitch that our Green Minister for the Environment discovered a few months ago when he attempted to ban the sale of old style, filament light bulbs.)

    Given that the entire EU is switching off analog terrestrial (some states have already done so completely), it would be perverse in the extreme for any European court to hold the French law banning the sale of rubbishy fake HD non-compliant TV sets as unlawful under some European competition law, under these circumstances.

    This law was enacted in 2007 to give the French supply chain time to discontinue obsolete products.

    Yet another example of a country where strategic issues are planned and legislated for in advance - and Ireland where the society just stumbles along from one unplanned waste of money to another.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭a bientot


    May I further confirm the veracity of my initial post.....as you can see this decision was taken over a year ago in 2007......
    further articles may be found by 'googling' either dtt or tnt and Mpeg4

    Any tv set bought in France without tnt Mpeg2 since yesterday has to be a real bargain in cost terms.....but they are difficult to find. and by late summer it will be difficult to find Mpeg2 sets also....

    French National Assembly approves TV bill
    The French National Assembly has approved the new TV bill entitled “Télévision du Futur” detailed in a “French Legislative update” in the latest Digitag web letter.
    According to the web letter analogue switch off is to take place on a region-by-region basis beginning on 31st March 2008 and ending by 30th November 2011.
    An amendment, proposed and approved, by the National Assembly mandates that all television sets sold in the next year must have a digital tuner. In addition, all HD television sets will need to have an HD MPEG4 AVC decoder included by December 1st 2008.
    Following analogue switch off, DTT services will be available to 95% of the population and the remaining 5% will have access to the same services from a satellite transmission to be provided by the Government. The satellite service will be available from the summer of 2007. Viewers will have access to 20 free to air and 19 pay DTT services after switch off.
    On the HD front it is expected that at least one multiplex will be made available for the launch of HD services by September 2007, in time for the Rugby World Cup.
    The full article can be accessed by clicking on the link at the end of this item.
    Source: Digitag webletter
    Item added: 20th February 2007


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    HDTVs that don’t come with HDTV DTT decoders (MPEG2 and MPEG4) should display a prominent warning at the point of sale. Something along the lines of “This is not really an HDTV – it can only be used for playing HD content from other sources – eg BluRay disk players and HD set top boxes - it is really just an HD monitor. If you want an HDTV that can receive HD broadcasts off the air, pick another product or go to another shop”.

    Anyone who has bought an HDTV in Ireland recently, and it doesn’t have a MPEG4 DTT decoder (check the specification) you might want to take it back to the shop for a refund – on the basis that it is not suitable for the purpose for which it was sold – i.e. to receive HDTV broadcasts, as you had expected from a product labelled “HDTV” etc. If they don’t give you a refund – take a case in the small claims court.

    http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/Library3.nsf/PageCurrentWebLookUpTopNav/Small%20Claims%20Procedure

    The small claims court procedure is simple – doesn’t require a lawyer – get your cash back and buy a brand new proper HDTV with the proceeds!

    When people invest €1 to €5k or more in a TV, they have a right to expect a product that will work into the future (ie it should work when RTE finally get around to transmitting DTT to the last country in Europe to benefit from same).

    .probe


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I have a Philips TV I bought for testing and it's "HD Ready".

    No digital tuner at all.

    only 1366 x768 resolution.

    Only 32"

    32" is only use for HD in a very small room. All HD content (apart from from psuedo HD from MS & Apple that is no better than DVD) in Europe is 1920 pixel x 1080 line.

    You are best just with a Monitor (SCART + HDMI) as standard change more rapidly these days. I had one 14" 2nd set for about 30 years. MPEG2 will be gone in a few years, maybe even before Analogue PAL is completely gone.

    Also decent PVR functions etc not likely in TV sets soon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    probe wrote: »
    Rubbish! Look at the law: (Article 19)
    http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000248397&dateTexte=

    It requires all televisions sold in France by manufacturers to distributors from the date specified to be DTT capable, and within 12 months of the date, televisions sold to consumers must be DTT capable. The idea of retailers bundling set top boxes with non DTT capable TVs to comply with the law is total rubbish - it would be stupid for the entire industry to operate that way. And HDTVs will have to have MPEG4 DTT receivers.

    An HDTV without an MPEG4 (ie HD capable DTT) receiver is a con that in 2008 one will only get away with in countries inhabited by moron consumers!

    .probe

    Simply show me the words which force manufactorers to integrate all components into one case.
    Simply show me the words which disallow the sales of tv sets with mpeg2 dtt tuner without the label "Prêt pour la haute définition ".


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    maxg wrote: »
    Simply show me the words which force manufactorers to integrate all components into one case.
    Simply show me the words which disallow the sales of tv sets with mpeg2 dtt tuner without the label "Prêt pour la haute définition ".

    "Dans un délai de douze mois à compter de la promulgation de la présente loi, les téléviseurs vendus aux consommateurs sur le territoire national intègrent un adaptateur permettant la réception des services de la télévision numérique terrestre.

    A partir du 1er décembre 2008, les téléviseurs et les enregistreurs mis en vente par un professionnel permettant la réception des programmes en haute définition intègrent un adaptateur prévu à cet effet.

    There is no legal provision in the French code allowing the sale of HD tv sets with only an MPEG2 tuner - if it is HD, it will have to have an MPEG4 tuner. An MPEG2 only device as I said is only a monitor in the context of HD television reception. A con on the public which shouldn't be permitted by law.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    watty wrote: »
    I have a Philips TV I bought for testing and it's "HD Ready".

    No digital tuner at all.

    only 1366 x768 resolution.

    Only 32"

    32" is only use for HD in a very small room. All HD content (apart from from psuedo HD from MS & Apple that is no better than DVD) in Europe is 1920 pixel x 1080 line.

    You are best just with a Monitor (SCART + HDMI) as standard change more rapidly these days. I had one 14" 2nd set for about 30 years. MPEG2 will be gone in a few years, maybe even before Analogue PAL is completely gone.

    Also decent PVR functions etc not likely in TV sets soon.

    By all means buy a monitor if you really want to. But retailers should not pass off what really are monitors as "HD TVs". MPEG4 is not going to vanish for decades - ie within the lifecycle of a current TV purchase. There is no point in a DTT late adopter country like Ireland going for anything other than MPEG4 - even for SD television - because it uses up so much spectrum - restricting the quality and number of HD channels in the future.

    The French law mandating HD on DTT TV tuners also applies to video recording kit. There is nothing wrong with the PVRs on the French market - what more features are you waiting for?

    When I look around Irish TV and PC shops, and compare the merchandise with what is on offer in France and elsewhere on the continent (and the prices) - most of the stuff in Irish shops is out of date rubbish.

    Which presumably Irish retailers are buying cheap because it won't sell anywhere else. Needless to say they are selling it at top prices to moron half brain dead Irish consumers (who don't do any research before they go out shopping)!

    .probe

    (and I haven't even mentioned the pathetic quality of Irish journalism on this subject matter)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    A lot of Journalism of new products seems to me to be really an advertising feature.

    I agree in Ireland that equipment is badly and misleading labelled. I agree TV tuners at theis stage should do MPEG4, and if there is not such tuner the TV should be sold like the Amp on a HiFi Separate : This set requires and external tuner / decoder and is only an AV system component.

    TVs should state the native resolution and how well they convert the other resolutions. If Native Progressive only, should warn users that for broadcasts the quality can't match a Progressive set that can do native interlace display. Only Progressive output players and consoles can do progressive. All broadcasts in 1080 and Standard definition will be interlace for forseeable future, and you can't perfectly convert Interlace to Progressive.

    I'd like a DLP 3 chip projector. I DON'T want a tuner in it, nor in any new TV set, I want loads of inputs to connect to the PVRs, Satellite receivers, set boxes, DVD players, Consoles etc we already have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    probe wrote: »
    "Dans un délai de douze mois à compter de la promulgation de la présente loi, les téléviseurs vendus aux consommateurs sur le territoire national intègrent un adaptateur permettant la réception des services de la télévision numérique terrestre.

    A partir du 1er décembre 2008, les téléviseurs et les enregistreurs mis en vente par un professionnel permettant la réception des programmes en haute définition intègrent un adaptateur prévu à cet effet.

    There is no legal provision in the French code allowing the sale of HD tv sets with only an MPEG2 tuner - if it is HD, it will have to have an MPEG4 tuner. An MPEG2 only device as I said is only a monitor in the context of HD television reception. A con on the public which shouldn't be permitted by law.

    .probe



    An "adaptateur" is not a fixed part of a TV set or do you think a scart adaptor cable is a fixed part.
    For the mpeg4 part you wrote it with your own words. Its not allowed to use the label HD since december. Thats not a ban for any tv set with intern or extern mpeg2 tuner. Dealers with old stock have to remove the lables and are not allowed to advertise with HD ready for such sets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    maxg wrote: »
    An "adaptateur" is not a fixed part of a TV set or do you think a scart adaptor cable is a fixed part.
    For the mpeg4 part you wrote it with your own words. Its not allowed to use the label HD since december. Thats not a ban for any tv set with intern or extern mpeg2 tuner. Dealers with old stock have to remove the lables and are not allowed to advertise with HD ready for such sets.

    Let me translate the two sentences – (civil law is minimalist in its writing style, but very unambiguous – as opposed to the antiquated, disorganized and wordy common law based system used in Ireland).

    "Within a period of twelve months from the enactment of this Act, televisions sold to consumers on the national territory shall have an integrated adapter allowing for the reception of digital terrestrial television services”.

    [This provision, which was published a year ago to give the dealers time to clear their inventories, is designed to ensure that ALL televisions, including tiny screen (eg say 30cm) “portable” (non HD) type devices are capable of receiving DTT, out of the box, without an additional set-top box being required].

    “From 1 December 2008, TVs and video recorders sold by a professional*, allowing the reception of HDTV, shall have integrated an adapter designed for that purpose.”

    This effectively requires that all HDTVs to have MPEG4 tuners built in from the date specified. No ifs, no buts, no DTT set top boxes allowed. Period. It doesn't provide for HD labels to be removed - the law covers all HDTV capable sets sold after the date.

    If you sold an HDTV capable set, and fiddled with the product labelling to remove references to HD - you would be in breach of the law. It would be not a simple job either - you would have to re-write the documentation that came with the product, and fraudulently change the model number....

    *a retail sale transaction, as opposed to some private individual selling something second hand

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭ga2re2t


    Seeing as I'm living in France, I should probably pop into the local Darty or Fnac and just ask one of the staff. I'll make a cup of tea and think about doing that :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    ga2re2t wrote: »
    Seeing as I'm living in France, I should probably pop into the local Darty or Fnac and just ask one of the staff. I'll make a cup of tea and think about doing that :D

    Suggest you go to FNAC rather than Darty. Darty is a bit like a Dixons.co.uk dump, French style – while most Dartys are bigger and more professionally run than Dixon/Currys/PC World outlets, but they are kms behind FNAC.

    Aside from having a coffee shop in most stores, as you probably know, FNAC started off as a club for consumers (rather than a profit making enterprise). It is now part of PPR’s “Grand Adventure” along with Gucci, Conforama, Puma, Yves St Laurent and others. http://www.ppr.com/ While it is now part of a profit making enterprise, the customer interest is the centre of focus at FNAC – far more so than in other shops.

    Before buying a TV, have a good read of the free “Dossier Fnac” “Sélection des Laboratoires d’essais 2008” for Flat screen Televisions which reviews their laboratory tests of each TV, it rates each one, and gives the basics to look out for.

    Aside from going for one with a “TNT HD” (ie MPEG4 DTT tuner):

    Go for TVs that use HDMI version 1.3 (better picture quality)

    Check out the report’s content on luminosity, colour richness, Gamut, Reflectance, life of the display, contrast ratios, blacks, etc – it gives the details.
    If you plan to play BluRay videos, go for a 24p set

    Pick the correct screen size to match your room size (table provided)

    Etc etc

    Enjoy FNAC’s subtle laugh at the stupid and confusing English language term “HD Ready”. It is not as if Full HD was “more ready” or “HD Ready” sets just needed an upgrade to do HD.

    If you don’t like something you buy at FNAC, you can take it back for a refund within 2 weeks.

    .probe

    FNAC is present in France, Italy, Belgium, Greece, Monaco, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, and Taiwan.

    One wonders when FNAC will come to Ireland? FNAC would put every existing Irish gadget, computer hardware and software, audio/visual, bookshop, coffee shop, camera shop, magazine shop, DVD/CD shop, and mobile phone shop within 75km of each FNAC location out of business within a few months.... FNAC is a good anchor tenant to have in any shopping mall and anyone who keeps their eyes open can't fail but to notice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    probe wrote: »
    it would be perverse in the extreme for any European court to hold the French law banning the sale of rubbishy fake HD non-compliant TV sets as unlawful under some European competition law, under these circumstances.

    This is what the EU commission is trying to do over cigarette sales .

    It says we shouldn't try to limit sales by high minimum prices but by using high excise duty and they are willing to take us to court over it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    SPDUB wrote: »
    This is what the EU commission is trying to do over cigarette sales .

    It says we shouldn't try to limit sales by high minimum prices but by using high excise duty and they are willing to take us to court over it

    The EU is far from perfect, and getting more perverse as the decades pass. An inglorious descent from the 1950s when it was a major driver in bringing peace to Europe.

    But no matter how bad or stupid they get, they haven't a hope in hell of taking France to court successfully for passing a law that makes it illegal to sell TV sets that are obsolete in terms of the French switch from analog to digital and from SD to HD television.

    Any court deciding in favour of the EU in such a hypothetical situation would be promoting a fraud / rip-off of the consumer.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    I'm with Watty on this one. A HDTV is just that, a display. If it has a built in DVB-T tuner, then that's a bonus which is convenient in some ways and a gimmick in others. Unlike previous "mass upgrades" of broadcast reception equipment everyone now has a choice of reception, whereas in for example the conversion to colour from B/W it was really terrestrial only for most people with cable coming later on in some areas.

    Nowadays someone may well rely of Sky for their television reception and forget terrestrial, in which case a DVB-T tuner is of little use. It is also of little use to those who live in poor reception areas, this includes France where TNT (as DTT is over there) is only planned to cover 85-90% of the country - the rest will be told to get TNT via satellite from AB5. A STB is still a useful accessory, a number of IDTVs that have been sold in the UK for DTT have had problems with MHEG and aren't 8K carriers compatible. At least an STB can be easily switched.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    lawhec wrote: »
    I'm with Watty on this one. A HDTV is just that, a display. If it has a built in DVB-T tuner, then that's a bonus which is convenient in some ways and a gimmick in others. Unlike previous "mass upgrades" of broadcast reception equipment everyone now has a choice of reception, whereas in for example the conversion to colour from B/W it was really terrestrial only for most people with cable coming later on in some areas.

    Nowadays someone may well rely of Sky for their television reception and forget terrestrial, in which case a DVB-T tuner is of little use. It is also of little use to those who live in poor reception areas, this includes France where TNT (as DTT is over there) is only planned to cover 85-90% of the country - the rest will be told to get TNT via satellite from AB5. A STB is still a useful accessory, a number of IDTVs that have been sold in the UK for DTT have had problems with MHEG and aren't 8K carriers compatible. At least an STB can be easily switched.

    No country in Europe (no matter how small) has allowed its broadcast media distribution infrastructure default platform be taken over for a foreign country. Even tiny countries have their own digital TV default platforms in place – Luxembourg, Iceland, Monaco, Andorra, San Marino, etc. Ireland has a far larger population than all these tiny countries combined.

    So why should Ireland allow itself to become dependant on Sky or anyone else offshore, to operate a key chunk of its national electronic media distribution infrastructure, outside the jurisdiction of the Irish legal system?

    If one looks at another media distribution platform – the print media, and specifically the daily newspaper, would it be acceptable for the Irish Times to no longer be on sale by itself – and instead included as a “free insert” with every copy of Rupert Murdoch’s London Times sold on the “island of Ireland”? If you want the Irish Times, you have to buy the London Times!

    Since DTT got a foothold in GB, and the BBC unbundled from the Sky encryption machine, Sky’s subscriber base has gone into decline in that country. Because the intelligent household can get all the TV they want in digital quality TV, free, and most have little or no interest in the rubbish created by Sky itself. They don’t want Sky’s own content. So why use national broadcaster product to force people to pay for Sky’s rubbish content. In Britain or Ireland?

    Ireland (country code IRL, as opposed to where you appear to be) is the only country where Sky subscribers are growing – simply because there is no nationwide DTT infrastructure in place, and neither has RTE launched a free to air satellite service – unlike virtually every other national TV service in Europe.

    Flat screen TVs (which must have DTT tuners) are cheaper in France than virtually any other country in Europe, despite the “burden” of the obligatory tuner. The system just swallows the cost, and the consumer gets better value. If you move house, and don’t have access to cable or satellite at the new location, your DTT TV will still work – because the French government had the foresight to ensure that it would be capable.

    Luxembourg’s Astra 2 satellites (28,2 E) used by Sky could be "taken out" by one of Britain’s larger enemy states in a matter of minutes, if it came to the crunch – without affecting the far larger Astra 1 satellite complex which is situated over in 19,2 E, and serves the rest of Europe. If Ireland was depending on that infrastructure platform, it would be a nice mess to be in for Ireland, if a large proportion of its TV receivers could only receive Irish TV via Sky, in a time of crisis with blank screens.

    Aside from that – the green issues – satellite dishes all over the place on houses and apartment buildings. Ugly. DTT works fine from indoor or outdoor conventional antennae structures. Make DTT the default, and the country will look less ugly.

    There is no excuse for TVs today to be sold without the appropriate DTT tuner. Any more than cars should be sold without seat belts. Nobody bought analog TVs in the past that were really monitors to plug into a cable set top box. Any more than one would buy a "radio" that was really a speaker and an amplifier that had to be plugged into a cable or DSL box to receive a broadcast.

    .probe


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. The MPEG2 transmissions from 3Rock (and Clermont Cairn) end on the 31st of July and RTE themselves will be commencing the MPEG4 64QAM transmissions on the 4th of August (only from 3Rock initially). Is there any box or add-on out there that will decode these transmissions. I was advised by RTE not to buy the Humax MPEG4 set-top box under any circumstances, that they still haven't solved the freezing problems.

    Any help out there?

    Shane


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Neotion Pocket Duo
    A combo CAM and MPEG4 --> MPEG2 converter.
    Fits CI slot.
    Has ethernet socket.

    Worked with SD MPEG4 trial in a regular pay TV DTT setbox CI slot. Should work in many Digital TVs.

    Inherently CAN'T do HDTV.

    My advice though is to wait till Jan/Feb 2009


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Cool- all the recent Sonys, Philips etc all have a CI socket.

    Any idea where one might buy a Neotion Pocket Duo?

    The problem I have is that I'm in an apartment and am not allowed to have a dish or an aerial. I can pick up horizontal UHF fine- and they are using the same array as the BCI test used- so, I should be good to go.......

    Had a hunt in Peats and Maplins at lunchtime- to no avail whatsoever. Both claim they have no plans to carry any sort of MPEG4 set top boxes whatsoever- and probably won't until analogue gets switched off as well over 90% of the country are covered by either UPC Cable/MDS or Sky...... wonderful........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,747 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sonys new range of TVs are MPEG4 + mheg5 compatible.
    See my previous post here.

    I saw a Sony KDL-32V4500 in the Soundstore in Limerick today for €769. (one of the new range of MPEG4 TVs -includes CI slot)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Cool- all the recent Sonys, Philips etc all have a CI socket.

    Any idea where one might buy a Neotion Pocket Duo?

    The problem is the majority of the lcds/stb's whatsoever sent audio and video streams only to a ci modul if the broadcast is flagged as scrambled. I don't think the RTE mux will get any flag for scrambled.
    The neotion modul is or was working for the mpeg4 channel at the dtt trial only because every channel got that flag independtly if it was in reality scrambled or not.
    If your lcd doesn't come to the idea to send video streams for a none scrambled channel to the ci a neotion modul doesn't help much.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    maxg wrote: »
    The problem is the majority of the lcds/stb's whatsoever sent audio and video streams only to a ci modul if the broadcast is flagged as scrambled. I don't think the RTE mux will get any flag for scrambled.
    The neotion modul is or was working for the mpeg4 channel at the dtt trial only because every channel got that flag independtly if it was in reality scrambled or not.
    If your lcd doesn't come to the idea to send video streams for a none scrambled channel to the ci a neotion modul doesn't help much.

    Are there any external boxes out there that would do a reasonable job? Even the Humax HDCI-2000 which was knocking around was only put together for the trials and is not available to purchase at all :(

    S.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    maxg wrote: »
    The problem is the majority of the lcds/stb's whatsoever sent audio and video streams only to a ci modul if the broadcast is flagged as scrambled. I don't think the RTE mux will get any flag for scrambled.
    The neotion module is or was working for the mpeg4 channel at the dtt trial only because every channel got that flag independtly if it was in reality scrambled or not.
    If your lcd doesn't come to the idea to send video streams for a none scrambled channel to the ci a neotion modul doesn't help much.

    Indeed it *might* depend on the set. But many you can select the CAM. It works with non-encrypt flag MPEG4 on the Technisat DTT receiver. Picture quality is not as good as a native MPEG4 decoder such as Lyngbox as the signal has an extra decode/code in realtime. I had my own source of MPEG4 DTT SD channels.

    An external set box is best. Nowadays regard a TV as a Video Monitor.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Does anyone have any suggestions for an external box capable of decrypting MPEG-4 in 64QAM? Even the Humax engineering samples are only 16QAM (and you cannot source them for love or money).......


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    Currently there are only combo boxes with sat and terrestrial tuner on the market which supporting mpeg4.
    For instance Clark Tech 5000C or Technomate 6900 but without mheg support.
    If you want a dtt only box with mheg support you should wait for the official irish dtt boxes next year.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    From my little bit of research- am I right that no-one else in the world, other than the South Koreans, are even thinking of using MPEG-4 64QAM at this stage? RTE Networks are sure going to be cutting edge! :eek: Makes a pleasant change I suppose- but its a bitch that you simply cannot get the hardware......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Any MPEG4 box will do 64QAM. The two are not related.

    MPEG4 is the codec used inside the MPEG2-Transport Stream.

    64QAM is the constellation used for the OFDM signal. = 64 posible symbols, thus 6 bits per clock.

    QAM16 (more common) is 4 bits per clock.

    QAM64 simply needs a stronger signal/less noise.

    Virtually all modulators and set boxes will do QPSK (=QAM4) to QAM265 (8 bits per symbol/clock, only usable on coax).

    DVB-c MPEG4 typically uses QAM256, (or QAM64 on known poor SNR cables).

    There are various boxes supporting DVB-t MPEG4 SD & HD.
    The Lyngbox is a nice combo PVR.

    There are also hybrid IPTV/DVB MPEG4 boxes for cable OR DTT. BT will be deploying one instead of current box.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Ok wonderful- so while theoretically we might have a much better quality than elsewhere- if you don't have a strong UHF signal from RTE- you may as well throw up your hands and forget about it? With the BCI trials I could pull the MPEG2 signal (with difficulty and a little signal boosting) from 3 Rock (where even with signal boosting the analogue signal was very poor). I may as well give up altogether?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    it's nothing to do with MPEG4 vs MPEG2, quality or Signal. The MPEG4 simply doubles the number of channels at no other penalty. Really something for nothing.

    The QAM64 needs more signal to noise than QAM16. Outdoor aerials only for most people. Allows 35% to 40% increase in channels

    Of course in Limerick our Analogue is only 100W!!!!!!!!

    It should be 10kW.

    The transmitter could cover 200,000 to 300,000+ with over 80,000 on set top / Internal Aerial. But there is almost nowhere in Limerick City that can get a noise free picture without external aerial.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Thats really poor.
    Considering I was getting intermittent pixilation on MPEG2 and atrocious analogue- forget about it- might have been a better way of putting it.......
    Why is Limerick so poorly served? Signal overflow from other areas- or the risk of it? Thats for another thread I guess.

    I had a very interesting chat with a guy in RTE networks about whether RTE would ever go FTA on Astra- he maintained that copyright issues were not the deciding factor against it- the £38,000 per transponder per year annual fee was the decider. Why should RTE pay this- as it would benefit overseas viewers, and not terrestrial viewers.

    Perhaps if they did a poll of all those Irish in Spain/Portugal/UK and offered them the channels for £200 a year or some reasonable enough price- they might get the funds for a few transponders before they knew what happened? Even here in Ireland- I'd pay £200 to be able to pull them off satellite without having to go through Sky....... Its ridiculous that they are being transmitted anyhow- but you have to buy a Sky package to pull them.........


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭Zaphod


    smccarrick wrote: »
    I had a very interesting chat with a guy in RTE networks about whether RTE would ever go FTA on Astra- he maintained that copyright issues were not the deciding factor against it- the £38,000 per transponder per year annual fee was the decider. Why should RTE pay this- as it would benefit overseas viewers, and not terrestrial viewers.

    How drunk was he when he told you this?

    If true, and transponders costs, rather than copyright issues, is the reason they won't go FTA, then what a crock of sh*t that is. Between Cathal Goan's €363K, Pat Kenny's €1M, Gaybo's retainer and the various other luminaries, they can't come up with €50k per year?

    And it's not overseas viewers who would benefit, but all those with crap or non-existent TV reception in the Republic along with viewers in NI under the GFA commitments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    on Astra 28E an entire transponder is $2M to 3M.

    On Astra 19E or Hotbird 13E, a transponder is about $1.5M p.a.

    £38,000 gets you a radio channel on 28E! :)

    Sky EPG for TV costs more than that.

    £38K pa will get an entire transponder on some feed satellite that no-one has dishes pointing at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭Fat_Fingers


    probe wrote: »

    Aside from that – the green issues – satellite dishes all over the place on houses and apartment buildings. Ugly. DTT works fine from indoor or outdoor conventional antennae structures. Make DTT the default, and the country will look less ugly.

    .probe


    Whoa! :D:D So you are saying antennas sticking everywhere to you are "prettier" then dishes. Man, have you traveled around Italy?? It looks absolutely mad with literally hundreds of antennas on roofs of the buildings. Its like a mad afro on top of every building. And this is also "greener" solution???? Damn man you have me scratching my head here. :D;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Satellite is MUCH greener than terrestrial. Even adding the scary firework that puts the bird up.

    Do you know how much electric is needed for 100 channels terrestrially with 99.5% coverage! Ha!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Was the DCMNR trial using 16QAM?
    watty wrote: »
    £38K pa will get an entire transponder on some feed satellite that no-one has dishes pointing at.
    Probably in inclined orbit too. ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Hissing Sideban


    watty wrote: »
    Neotion Pocket Duo
    A combo CAM and MPEG4 --> MPEG2 converter.
    Fits CI slot.
    Has ethernet socket.

    Worked with SD MPEG4 trial in a regular pay TV DTT setbox CI slot. Should work in many Digital TVs.

    Inherently CAN'T do HDTV.

    My advice though is to wait till Jan/Feb 2009

    I have a 'Conax MPEG4 NP4 Neotion Processor HDTV', model CAM-CXMPG4, http://www.dvbshop.net/product_info.php/language/en/info/p129_Conax-MPEG4-NP4-Neotion-Processor-HDTV.html/XTCsid/8fd65e1bc52681e780ac3202def486f2 (no RJ45 plug on it)plugged into the CAM slot of my Panasonic TH37PX80B, and I can get none of the MPEG4 stuff (Channel 42 from Mt Leinster AFAIK)The SD Ch39 and 45 are fine in MPEG 2 mode with or without the Neotion.
    Not sure if the CAM needs a card in it to activate it. The TV 'knows' it's there, if you look in the setup menu

    Any Ideas why Watty?

    Also interesting that it's title it calls itself 'HDTV'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    Check if there are any options in the cam menu.
    If the channels via Mt.Leinster are flagged none scrambled and the firmware of your panny come not to the idea to send the stream for none scrambled channels to the ci-modul you are maybe out of luck.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I thought the MPEG-4 transmissions didn't start until the 4th of August- the MPEG-2 transmissions terminating on the 31st of July? Might this be the reason?

    S.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    OTV is being broadcast in SD and mpeg4. The hd test channel is also being broadcast in mpeg4 but most of the mpeg2 decoder are not able to handle the high data amount of hd and it doesn't matter if a mpeg4 to mepg2 conversion is working or not for hd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Hissing Sideban


    maxg wrote: »
    Check if there are any options in the cam menu.
    If the channels via Mt.Leinster are flagged none scrambled and the firmware of your panny come not to the idea to send the stream for none scrambled channels to the ci-modul you are maybe out of luck.
    No, I have checked several times for options in the CAM menu, nothing there that has any effect.

    I don't know whether the MPEG4 stuff is flagged as scrambled, but I do know that the MPEG 2 multiplexes are flagged as scrambled, even though they are not actually scrambled - this is the reason why a UK type freeview box won't work if it has no card slot or CAM slot, but those that do have one work fine (I have tried both to see)
    As you say, I might be out of luck!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    There should be a option to enable or disable mpeg4 to mpeg2 conversion. In the modul menu at the latest viacess neotion modul there is such a option.
    If OTV is flagged as scrambled or not you have to check the PMT.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I have a 'Conax MPEG4 NP4 Neotion Processor HDTV', model CAM-CXMPG4, http://www.dvbshop.net/product_info.php/language/en/info/p129_Conax-MPEG4-NP4-Neotion-Processor-HDTV.html/XTCsid/8fd65e1bc52681e780ac3202def486f2 (no RJ45 plug on it)plugged into the CAM slot of my Panasonic TH37PX80B, and I can get none of the MPEG4 stuff (Channel 42 from Mt Leinster AFAIK)The SD Ch39 and 45 are fine in MPEG 2 mode with or without the Neotion.
    Not sure if the CAM needs a card in it to activate it. The TV 'knows' it's there, if you look in the setup menu

    Any Ideas why Watty?

    Also interesting that it's title it calls itself 'HDTV'

    I got one of these on the basis of what Hissing Sideban posted above- its working perfectly in a S Series Sony- picture looks amazing (far better than the DCMNR trial). S.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭Antenna


    watty wrote: »
    Of course in Limerick our Analogue is only 100W!!!!!!!!

    RTENL says its 2kW (Woodcock Hill)

    see
    http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/television-frequencies.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭mickeyboymel


    maxg wrote: »
    There should be a option to enable or disable mpeg4 to mpeg2 conversion. In the modul menu at the latest viacess neotion modul there is such a option.
    If OTV is flagged as scrambled or not you have to check the PMT.

    Is this where it differs from the Conax version of the same CAM?(Apart from the two different encryption methods) I cannot seem to find any similar setting in the onscreen CAM menu on my Samsung TV with the Conax Neotion Cam inserted. If there were an option to enable conversion in the Viaacess version it might be worth a try before I give up on the Samsung telly ever being able to convert MPEG4 To MPEG2 via the CI Slot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    If the firmware at your TV is not willing to pipe blindly the transponder stream for none scrambled channels through a cam the neotion module are not working.
    The firmware at some TV's check before if descrambling is necessary or not.


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