The Freemasons

j80ezgvc3p92xu

A group to make contacts.

In fairness, how can people not do any proper research, just read the crap that is spoon fed to them, and just go on believing that the masons are some sort of a evil moneygrabbing organization.

Never said money-grabbing alone. Power is another thing these dastardly masons are after :cool:

If they don't like Freemasons they must have a good reason alright.

Have you ever actually read a Papal encyclical on Freemasonry? Its really a fascinating lecture, with plenty of reasons cited for the inherent evil of the organisation. I wasn't afraid to read some of the masonic gibberish that is out there so... food for thought.

Although it won't explain why the RCC is at odds with Freemasonry.

Actually it would. Masons discriminating against Catholics would be a major reason why the RCC and the craft are at odds.

why have totalitarians regime made it a point to suppress the Freemasons?

Totalitarian regimes and Freemasonry often go hand in hand. Many scholars claim Lenin was a mason, as was Trocky. In Nazi Germany, the "Old Prussian" lodges were amalgamated into the "Fredrick the Great Association", swore allegiance to Hitler and removed any Hebrew words from their rituals. They were allowed to function despite the Nazis apparently being anti-Masonic. Makes you wonder!

Since you're obviously a chap who researches things properly, I look forward to your insights on the intricacies of the thinking behind Morals & Dogma.

I really wont waste my time here mate, you will just quote me out of context and cite Wikipedia for support.

Absolam

A money making group.

Emme wrote: »

You mean non-Freemasons. According to this Masonic website the three degrees of Blue Lodge Freemasonry are Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason. Surely an Entered Apprentice has less knowledge of Freemasonry than a Master Mason? If not what is the point of having different degrees at all?

No I mean people who don't know about Freemasonry. Like those who presume that an Entered Apprentice knows less about Freemasonry than a Master Mason. It's likely, even probable, but not necessarily true. Some people take time to learn a great deal about Freemasonry before becoming one, others may join and receive their three degrees without learning a great deal about the organisation.

Emme wrote: »

However, I know of some Masons who are very annoyed at the level of Masonic information available on the internet. One man said that there was no point in joining a society with secrets when the secrets were available to all and sundry on the internet.

Yes, I've seen the same reference on the internet.

Emme wrote: »

Having said that, it is a lot easier for someone who already knows the secrets to wade through the murk of disinformation regarding Freemasonry. A non-Mason would not find the secrets or information so easily online.

A non-Mason would find the secrets and information just as easily online, they would simply be less likely to accurately distinguish truth from fiction.

Emme wrote: »

Yes. Many aristocratic families would have had ancestors who studied alchemy and other subjects on the Continent and joined secret societies overseas with similar ideologies to Freemasonry. One of these families had a member who helped to set up Irish Freemasonry.

I think you yourself will have noted the use of 'other subjects', 'similar ideologies' and 'helped' in there. These reduce your notion of some alchemical conspiracy to nothing more than the fact that aristocratic families could and did afford education and diversions; they learnt what was considered science and philosophy, and joined fashionable societies. It wasn't unusual, or worthy of any opprobrium to do so.

Emme wrote: »

This founder had an ancestor who studied alchemy abroad and people in Ireland who did not understand alchemy thought he was monkeying around with the devil.

I think anyone whose family has existed in Ireland for a while probably has a tale about an ancestor who someone thought was monkeying around with the devil :-)

Emme wrote: »

I believe (rightly or wrongly) that there are parallels with the study of Freemasonry and alchemy and that the knowledge of many secret societies stems from alchemy.

People believe (generally wrongly) that there are parallels with the study of Freemasonry and almost every esoteric school of thought that has existed in the history of humanity. But I would suggest that you cannot demonstrate that the knowledge of any secret society has ever stemmed from alchemy.

Emme wrote: »

When I visited the Grand Lodge in Dublin our Masonic guide told us that Masons who study the history and theory of Freemasonry are speculative Masons. Perhaps I didn't hear him properly but you may know what he was talking about.

I'm not sure how you think the one follows the other unless you think speculation is an alchemical process? However your guide was correct, Freemasons are called speculative Masons, as distinct from operative Masons. Operative Masons work stone and build things, speculative Masons do not (unless they are also operative Masons).

Emme wrote: »

There is a link between alchemy and the Great Mystery Schools (Pythagoras etc.) and some secret societies spring from this.

I very much doubt that Pythagorus would have accepted he had a link with alchemy. Alchemists may later have felt they derived some insight from Pythagorism, but that's an entirely different thing. As to whether some secret societies sprang from some alchemists view of Pythagorism, I'm sure that could be debated, but I'm considerably more sure it has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

Emme wrote: »

Therefore there may be parallels between these secret societies and Freemasonry.

I can't see where your therefore is coming from? Unless you're drawing a tenuous connection between the ancestor of a putative early member of Irish Freemasonry who reputedly studied alchemy, and alchemists who may have influenced the creation of unknown secret societies, which is altogether a bit too lacking in specificity to be meaningful...

Emme wrote: »

The aristocracy had the time and resources to study this topic and to join secret societies such as the Golden Dawn. Perhaps those in such secret societies may have different expectations of Masonic membership to those who join from working and middle class backgrounds.

Oh, I imagine aristocrats had different expectations of just about every single thing in their lives from people who were working or middle class, don't you? Their expectations of Freemasonry were likely no different to everything else.

Absolam

A money making group.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Never said money-grabbing alone. Power is another thing these dastardly masons are after :cool:

Absolutely, no doubt. All those centuries secretly running the world an still lusting after power. What are they like!

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Have you ever actually read a Papal encyclical on Freemasonry? Its really a fascinating lecture, with plenty of reasons cited for the inherent evil of the organisation. I wasn't afraid to read some of the masonic gibberish that is out there so... food for thought.

Well I've read In eminenti apostolatus specula, and Humanum Genus , of course, and Ab Apostolici, and Custodi di quella fede, and a few of the others. I wasb't afraid to read them in context, or to read the other gibberish out there, so snap, eh?

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Actually it would. Masons discriminating against Catholics would be a major reason why the RCC and the craft are at odds.

Ah... so those Papal encyclicals you like reading were issued hundreds of years before because the Popes knew what a couple of Freemasons were going to get up to, and we're getting their revenge in first. Cunning.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Totalitarian regimes and Freemasonry often go hand in hand. Many scholars claim Lenin was a mason, as was Trocky. In Nazi Germany, the "Old Prussian" lodges were amalgamated into the "Fredrick the Great Association", swore allegiance to Hitler and removed any Hebrew words from their rituals. They were allowed to function despite the Nazis apparently being anti-Masonic. Makes you wonder!

Ah now, Totalitarian regimes and Freemasonry are often calimed to go hand in hand by conspiracy theorists would be a more accurate statement, would it not? Luckily, the nonsense about Lenin and Trotsky has been comprehensively dismissed (in this very thread, the last time you brought it up, if memory serves!).
As for the Old Prussian Lodges.. you can surely do better than trawling anti-Masonic sites for your nonsense? Next you'll be telling us Hitler was secretly a Freemason and only sent Masons to concentration camps to maintain his cover.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

I really wont waste my time here mate, you will just quote me out of context and cite Wikipedia for support.

I was kind of expecting that; from your previous posts you generally tend to decline discussion once it gets to specifics. Would you like to sign off again with "Masons should leave the craft as otherwise they will have a very tough time at the hour of Final Judgement."? I think it encapsulates your position on the subject quite well.

Emme

Absolam wrote: »

No I mean people who don't know about Freemasonry. Like those who presume that an Entered Apprentice knows less about Freemasonry than a Master Mason. It's likely, even probable, but not necessarily true. Some people take time to learn a great deal about Freemasonry before becoming one, others may join and receive their three degrees without learning a great deal about the organisation.

Are you saying that a non-Mason can learn accurate information about Freemasonry without being part of the organisation?

Absolam wrote: »

Yes, I've seen the same reference on the internet.
A non-Mason would find the secrets and information just as easily online, they would simply be less likely to accurately distinguish truth from fiction.
I think you yourself will have noted the use of 'other subjects', 'similar ideologies' and 'helped' in there. These reduce your notion of some alchemical conspiracy to nothing more than the fact that aristocratic families could and did afford education and diversions; they learnt what was considered science and philosophy, and joined fashionable societies. It wasn't unusual, or worthy of any opprobrium to do so.
I think anyone whose family has existed in Ireland for a while probably has a tale about an ancestor who someone thought was monkeying around with the devil :-)
People believe (generally wrongly) that there are parallels with the study of Freemasonry and almost every esoteric school of thought that has existed in the history of humanity. But I would suggest that you cannot demonstrate that the knowledge of any secret society has ever stemmed from alchemy.

Would you expect me to? If I am not a member of a secret society I cannot accurately demonstrate where their knowledge comes from. If I am a member of a secret society I can only demonstrate what knowledge I have of that society to designated fellow members. Any knowledge that finds its way into the public domain cannot be validated despite similarities or coincidences.

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not sure how you think the one follows the other unless you think speculation is an alchemical process? However your guide was correct, Freemasons are called speculative Masons, as distinct from operative Masons. Operative Masons work stone and build things, speculative Masons do not (unless they are also operative Masons).

Everything that happens in the universe is an alchemical process.

Absolam wrote: »

I very much doubt that Pythagorus would have accepted he had a link with alchemy. Alchemists may later have felt they derived some insight from Pythagorism, but that's an entirely different thing. As to whether some secret societies sprang from some alchemists view of Pythagorism, I'm sure that could be debated, but I'm considerably more sure it has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

I cannot debate that as I am not a Mason.

Absolam wrote: »

I can't see where your therefore is coming from? Unless you're drawing a tenuous connection between the ancestor of a putative early member of Irish Freemasonry who reputedly studied alchemy, and alchemists who may have influenced the creation of unknown secret societies, which is altogether a bit too lacking in specificity to be meaningful...

My connection cannot be anything but tenuous because I am not a Mason.

Absolam wrote: »

Oh, I imagine aristocrats had different expectations of just about every single thing in their lives from people who were working or middle class, don't you? Their expectations of Freemasonry were likely no different to everything else.

Indeed. Let's hope that the aristocracy and other elites didn't form lodges within lodges that excluded non-elites. If this happened the lodges within lodges could have got up to all sorts of dastardly deeds such as trying to destroy the world. The lodges outside the loop would be a perfect cover as they would have no knowledge about what was going on. Of course this is pure conspiracy and could never happen.

Absolam

A money making group.

Emme wrote: »

Are you saying that a non-Mason can learn accurate information about Freemasonry without being part of the organisation?

Of course; there are huge volumes of accurate information about Freemasonry in the public domain. To know what information is accurate (or how accurate it is likely to be) one need only be a competent and diligent scholar. There is also a huge amount of accurate information in the public domain about the secrets of Freemasonry, but to know for certain what information about the secrets is accurate one needs to be a Freemason.

Emme wrote: »

Would you expect me to? If I am not a member of a secret society I cannot accurately demonstrate where their knowledge comes from. If I am a member of a secret society I can only demonstrate what knowledge I have of that society to designated fellow members. Any knowledge that finds its way into the public domain cannot be validated despite similarities or coincidences.

Yes, I would expect you to. If you make a straighforward claim like "There is a link between alchemy and the Great Mystery Schools and some secret societies spring from this." I would expect you to be able to substantiate your assertion.

Emme wrote: »

Everything that happens in the universe is an alchemical process.

That sounds like the opinion of an alchemist. But just for fun, can you demonstrate the alchemical process of speculation?

Emme wrote: »

I cannot debate that as I am not a Mason.

I don't think your being a Mason could have any bearing on whether Pythagorus would have accepted he had a link with alchemy. Equally, I don't think your being a Mason could have any bearing on whether some secret societies sprang from some alchemists view of Pythagorism. But if you feel not being a Mason prevents you from debating these assertions, surely it ought to prevent you from making the assertions in the first place?

Emme wrote: »

My connection cannot be anything but tenuous because I am not a Mason.

I don't see how your being a Mason would make the connection any less tenuous?

Emme wrote: »

Indeed. Let's hope that the aristocracy and other elites didn't form lodges within lodges that excluded non-elites. If this happened the lodges within lodges could have got up to all sorts of dastardly deeds such as trying to destroy the world. The lodges outside the loop would be a perfect cover as they would have no knowledge about what was going on. Of course this is pure conspiracy and could never happen.

In fairness, once we get to elites and space aliens (I know you edited them out, but still..) we've really moved beyond pure conspiracy and into pure fantasy...

j80ezgvc3p92xu

A group to make contacts.

All those centuries secretly running the world an still lusting after power. What are they like!

You are giving away some very privy masonic information there, are you not going to be "[SIZE=-1]having (your) throat cut across, (your) tongue torn out by its roots, and buried in the rough sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty four hours"? These boys sure have an imagination.

[/SIZE]

Well I've read In eminenti apostolatus specula, and Humanum Genus , of course, and Ab Apostolici, and Custodi di quella fede, and a few of the others.

Fair play, I find myself pleasantly surprised.

Ah... so those Papal encyclicals you like reading were issued hundreds of years before because the Popes knew what a couple of Freemasons were going to get up to, and we're getting their revenge in first. Cunning.

As I'm sure you gathered from all these Encyclicals you have read, the main problems the Popes had with Freemasonry was their relativism, their "revolutionary spirit" and their blatant anti-Catholicism. The Affaire des Fisches was just a manifestation of this sentiment.

calimed to go hand in hand by conspiracy theorists

Ah, every uncomfortable truth must be a conspiracy theory. Orwellian double speak at its finest.

the nonsense about Lenin and Trotsky has been comprehensively dismissed (in this very thread, the last time you brought it up, if memory serves!)

How and where have you dismissed these arguments? I must have missed something.

As for the Old Prussian Lodges.. you can surely do better than trawling anti-Masonic sites for your nonsense? Next you'll be telling us Hitler was secretly a Freemason and only sent Masons to concentration camps to maintain his cover.

Please back up your information, you cannot just claim everything is a conspiracy theory or is simply derived from anti-Masonic sites. The fact of the matter is: Hitler did fight Freemasonry, he claimed it was pervaded with "Judaic spirit" if I rightly remember (before you say anything, I would not condone putting masons in concentration camps and Hitler was an evil man indeed). However, the Old Prussian lodges were populated with Junker aristocracy and many were dedicated Nazis. For the price of a name change, they were able to escape the persecution that was the fate of the, lets call them, "lower class brothers". Unless you can prove that the Old Prussian lodges were in fact persecuted, my argument stands.

I was kind of expecting that; from your previous posts you generally tend to decline discussion once it gets to specifics.

I honestly tried to avoid a lengthy discussion not because "its too specific" but because you have an annoying tendency to quote out of context and avoid tackling the point I make. For example, a point was made earlier about Manly P. Hall, a well known mason, advocating homosexuality within the lodges. I have also found Pike supporting it in his book, albeit in a very subtle way. This seems to have escaped your attention. If you wish to continue an educated discussion, please engage the points I make and I will return the courtesy.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

As I'm sure you gathered from all these Encyclicals you have read, the main problems the Popes had with Freemasonry was their relativism, their "revolutionary spirit" and their blatant anti-Catholicism. The Affaire des Fisches was just a manifestation of this sentiment.

I think this sentiment crystalised best in Mexico.

Cristero War[edit]
Main article: Cristero War
On 28 May 1926, Calles was awarded a medal of merit from the head of Mexico's Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for his actions against the Catholics.[15]

The following month on 14 June 1926, President Calles enacted anticlerical legislation known formally as The Law Reforming the Penal Code and unofficially as the Calles Law.[16] His anti-Catholic actions included outlawing religious orders, depriving the Church of property rights and depriving the clergy of civil liberties, including their right to trial by jury (in cases involving anti-clerical laws) and the right to vote.[16][17] Catholic antipathy towards Calles was enhanced because of his vocal atheism.[1]

Like Obregón (his predecessor), Calles was a practicing Freemason and fervently anti-Catholic.[18][19] Regarding this period, recent President Vicente Fox stated, "After 1917, Mexico was led by anti-Catholic Freemasons who tried to evoke the anticlerical spirit of popular indigenous President Benito Juárez of the 1800s. But the military dictators of the 1920s were a lot more savage than Juárez."[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristero_War

j80ezgvc3p92xu

A group to make contacts.

You can add a few more examples to this. The French Revolution (work of the Grand Orient of France), Garibaldi's wars of unification (Garibaldi and Mazzini were famous masons), Polish partitions (orchestrated by Fredrick II, a mason, and the masonic "Anti-Sobriety League"), Spanish Revolution (Franco's book on the revolution is amply titled "Masoneria")... I'm sure the list goes on and on but I'm just listing these examples of masonic anti-Catholicism off the top of my head.

Absolam

A money making group.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

You are giving away some very privy masonic information there, are you not going to be "having (your) throat cut across, (your) tongue torn out by its roots, and buried in the rough sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty four hours"? These boys sure have an imagination.

How do you know it's privy? If you think it's privy surely you wouldn't know about it?

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

As I'm sure you gathered from all these Encyclicals you have read, the main problems the Popes had with Freemasonry was their relativism, their "revolutionary spirit" and their blatant anti-Catholicism. The Affaire des Fisches was just a manifestation of this sentiment.

Nope, what I gathered from them was the Popes had a problem with anyone who didn't acknowledge the primacy of the Catholic Church and encouraged their members to worship after their own fashion. The Affaire Des Fiches was much more indicative of anti clericalism in secular republican France than of anti Catholicism in the Freemasons, as evidenced by the lack of such activity amongst the majority of Freemasons around the world.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Ah, every uncomfortable truth must be a conspiracy theory. Orwellian double speak at its finest.

Well, you'd have to begin by showing it's true before you get there.... something you've spectacularly failed at so far.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

How and where have you dismissed these arguments? I must have missed something.

No, I think you quite specifically said you just didn't accept being contradicted. You'll find it here, here, here, and here.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Please back up your information, you cannot just claim everything is a conspiracy theory or is simply derived from anti-Masonic sites.

I'm not the one making the claims here; you are. So, since you're so interested in people backing up their information, perhaps you will provide information to support your claims that is not from an anti Masonic conspiracy theory site?

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

However, the Old Prussian lodges were populated with Junker aristocracy and many were dedicated Nazis. For the price of a name change, they were able to escape the persecution that was the fate of the, lets call them, "lower class brothers". Unless you can prove that the Old Prussian lodges were in fact persecuted, my argument stands.

Well no, your argument only stands if you can prove that in Nazi Germany, the "Old Prussian" lodges were amalgamated into the "Fredrick the Great Association", swore allegiance to Hitler and removed any Hebrew words from their rituals, and they were allowed to function despite the Nazis apparently being anti-Masonic without reference to the ct sites. You made the argument; it's up to you to prove it.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

I honestly tried to avoid a lengthy discussion not because "its too specific" but because you have an annoying tendency to quote out of context and avoid tackling the point I make.

Really? I think you avoid specifics because once you get down to verifiable facts your theories tend to fall apart.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

For example, a point was made earlier about Manly P. Hall, a well known mason, advocating homosexuality within the lodges. I have also found Pike supporting it in his book, albeit in a very subtle way. This seems to have escaped your attention.

This is an excellent example; what you actually said was: "some of the stuff written by "brothers" is just demented. I'm talking Pike, Manley P. Hall ( reading his book would answer the "Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?" question) and Alister Crowley."
Now, this didn't escape my attention, however, you didn't mention what 'stuff written by brothers' is demented, nor specifically what Manly P Hall, or Pike wrote that you find demented.
The fact that you now imagine this has mystically transmuted into a point being made about Manly P Hall advocating homsexuality in Lodges, and Pike supporting it simply demonstrates the gap between your perceptions and reality. That's before we even get to the notion that advocating homosexuality can be considered demented....

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

If you wish to continue an educated discussion, please engage the points I make and I will return the courtesy.

Sure; let's start with the basis you ascribe for your notion that advocating homosexuality is demented, then we'll move on the references from Manly P Hall and Albert Pike that you're going to use to support your arguments.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

A group to make contacts.

How do you know it's privy? If you think it's privy surely you wouldn't know about it?

Twas a joke, I was just making fun of the daft masonic oath and the threats associated with it. I found the reference to the tide particularly amusing.

Nope, what I gathered from them was the Popes had a problem with anyone who didn't acknowledge the primacy of the Catholic Church and encouraged their members to worship after their own fashion. The Affaire Des Fiches was much more indicative of anti clericalism in secular republican France than of anti Catholicism in the Freemasons, as evidenced by the lack of such activity amongst the majority of Freemasons around the world.

The Affaire was not about the mood in France at the time, it was a blatant anti-Catholic action undertaken by the Grand Orient of France, which is so famously egalitarian.

Well, you'd have to begin by showing it's true before you get there

You fail to engage with any quotes I or others make. Here is a quote from Brown Bomber's post above:

On 28 May 1926, Calles was awarded a medal of merit from the head of Mexico's Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for his actions against the Catholics.

What more do you want for proof of masonic anti-Catholicism? Show me a place where you have used a quote or fact to back up a statement, not just the silly alluding to "conspiracy" and "anti-Masonic" sources.

No, I think you quite specifically said you just didn't accept being contradicted. You'll find it here, here, here, and here.

Again, just because you say something is not true or a "conspiracy" does not make it so.

So, since you're so interested in people backing up their information, perhaps you will provide information to support your claims that is not from an anti Masonic conspiracy theory site?

I remember reading about the "Old Prussian Lodges" in a book written for masons. Much of what I have learned about the nature of masonry actually comes from their US publication, New Age, which has a lot of back issues online. I can come back and quote extensively from this if you wish. And finally, Wikipedia, (which seems to be one of your favorite sources) is anything but anti-masonic. If anything, it has a left-wing, anti-Catholic slant.

This is an excellent example; what you actually said was: "some of the stuff written by "brothers" is just demented. I'm talking Pike, Manley P. Hall ( reading his book would answer the "Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?" question) and Alister Crowley."
Now, this didn't escape my attention, however, you didn't mention what 'stuff written by brothers' is demented, nor specifically what Manly P Hall, or Pike wrote that you find demented.
The fact that you now imagine this has mystically transmuted into a point being made about Manly P Hall advocating homsexuality in Lodges, and Pike supporting it simply demonstrates the gap between your perceptions and reality. That's before we even get to the notion that advocating homosexuality can be considered demented....

Ok if you think that the work of Alister Crowley is not demented then I lose all hope. Secondly, where have I said that advocating homosexuality is demented? I would not agree with it, but you are putting words in my mouth. Also, and I would like an honest answer, do you or do you not think Hall was advocating homosexuality in the lodges? Out of pure curiosity, you being a mason and all.

then we'll move on the references from Manly P Hall and Albert Pike that you're going to use to support your arguments.

I'll provide them, I'm just really curious to hear your take on the matter first.

Absolam

A money making group.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Twas a joke, I was just making fun of the daft masonic oath and the threats associated with it. I found the reference to the tide particularly amusing.

Ah... I'm guessing you thought it was toilet humour then.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

The Affaire was not about the mood in France at the time, it was a blatant anti-Catholic action undertaken by the Grand Orient of France, which is so famously egalitarian.

Or a blatant anti clerical action taken by the French government and military, which are so famously republican. I suppose it depends on how you view the principal players really.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

You fail to engage with any quotes I or others make. Here is a quote from Brown Bomber's post above:

Which quote did you offer to support your allegation that every uncomfortable truth must be a conspiracy theory? It seems notably missing from your post. Or perhaps you mean the quote supporting the statement that totalitarian regimes and Freemasonry often go hand in hand. Wait, that seems to be missing too. Are you by any chance imagining these quotes of yours I'm failing to engage with?

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

What more do you want for proof of masonic anti-Catholicism? Show me a place where you have used a quote or fact to back up a statement, not just the silly alluding to "conspiracy" and "anti-Masonic" sources.

So... what exactly did I need a quote or fact to back up?

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Again, just because you say something is not true or a "conspiracy" does not make it so.

Of course not. But when you say something is a fact (like for instance, Lenin was a Freemason) but can't provide any evidence, you have to accept that people will say it is not, in fact, a fact.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

I remember reading about the "Old Prussian Lodges" in a book written for masons. Much of what I have learned about the nature of masonry actually comes from their US publication, New Age, which has a lot of back issues online. I can come back and quote extensively from this if you wish.

No thanks, just the link to actual information showing proof that in Nazi Germany, the "Old Prussian" lodges were amalgamated into the "Fredrick the Great Association", swore allegiance to Hitler and removed any Hebrew words from their rituals, and they were allowed to function despite the Nazis apparently being anti-Masonic will do fine. You'll understand if I don't accept a recollection of reading a book for Masons as being incontrovertible evidence of your assertion I hope.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

And finally, Wikipedia, (which seems to be one of your favorite sources) is anything but anti-masonic. If anything, it has a left-wing, anti-Catholic slant.

You do have a bit of a thing about me and Wikipedia don't you? I know, I used it to point out you didn't even research your quotes to the most basic degree, but you have to just learn from that and move on.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Ok if you think that the work of Alister Crowley is not demented then I lose all hope. Secondly, where have I said that advocating homosexuality is demented? I would not agree with it, but you are putting words in my mouth.

I'm sure I must apologise if I put words in your mouth. Let me see, first you said,

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Plus if you take the time to research things properly, some of the stuff written by "brothers" is just demented. I'm talking Pike, Manley P. Hall ( reading his book would answer the "Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?" question) and Alister Crowley. Some truly messed up individuals.

then you said:

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

a point was made earlier about Manly P. Hall, a well known mason, advocating homosexuality within the lodges. I have also found Pike supporting it in his book, albeit in a very subtle way.

Now if the one didn't refer to the other, I apologise, and please do point me to the post you were referring to. But if it was, you do appear to be saying that the stuff written by Manly P Hall advocating homosexuality in the Lodges was demented. Maybe it's just the way you wrote it.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Also, and I would like an honest answer, do you or do you not think Hall was advocating homosexuality in the lodges? Out of pure curiosity, you being a mason and all.

Honestly, I'd really like to see Manly P Halls statement advocating homosexuality in lodges before I comment on it. Since you are commenting on it, I presume you must be in a position to show it to us?

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

I'll provide them, I'm just really curious to hear your take on the matter first.

That's great! Though I can't imagine why you think I'd give you a take on something you haven't shown me yet.

degrassinoel

Lets keep the topic to Freemasonry.


That story is actually something I'd heard before, and tbh no need to be so graphic here about it.

degrassinoel

Brown Bomber wrote: »

:pac: yeah, I was just joking, but male-to-male anal sex is part of the thelemic rituals. For example, Crowley, a Freemason, who modelled his OTO on freemasonry, took some Jewish poet into the desert and raped him day after day as part of a ritual. They really are sick ****s, they (OTO) have a degree where the blood caused by the anal sex is used as part of the ritual

See above post.

Torakx

Does anyone know if Walter Russell had any connections with Freemasons?
Or if the Twilight Club had/has masonic connections?
Doing a little research on the side and can't find too much so far.
Seems like a no, but the Twilight club alsoseems to have been about changing the world, which is always suspicious when the rich and famous are involved.

Sober Too

A group to make contacts.

Anybody catch the TV3 Xmas Toy show ? , reason I ask is that I have a rather queasy feeling still re the imagery , outfits and scenery used in that production.

Would someone like to place a screenshot at the just after 1 minute mark up.

As I`m now informed there is the magog and gog pillars , pyramid topped and framing a rather lurid steep angled pyramid , and other symbolism going on that apparently screams Freemasonic ...hmmm childrens Tv eh !

ps the After hours thread re this show was closed , and also I can`t do the links yet , so kindly feel free ))


Mod link added: http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/694/8...stmas-Toy-Show

degrassinoel

i heard it was crap, but then the late late one is too

But anyway, pm me the link you have and i'll edit your post to include it

Torakx

Man this is painfull... 4 adverts in a row, I have it on mute now lol
Will edit after I get a look, if I get there...
This is why I hate TV.

Sorry I couldn't find any toy related content on that page linked. They were just talking and cooking and it was too frustrating to go through another set of adverts to find.
Maybe someone with more patience can find the shot you're thinking of.

Absolam

A money making group.

Sober Too wrote: »

I have a rather queasy feeling still re the imagery , outfits and scenery used in that production.
As I`m now informed there is the magog and gog pillars , pyramid topped and framing a rather lurid steep angled pyramid , and other symbolism going on that apparently screams Freemasonic ...hmmm childrens Tv eh !

Did you mean this part of the set?
It looks like two disney style fairy tale castle towers flanking a christmas tree shape.. though I might be being misled by the disney song going on in the foreground.
But it does share some strong similarities with the Disney Frozen Castle playset... so I suspect it may have more to do with the Frozen theme evident in the show than a covert Masonic takeover of TV3

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Sober Too wrote: »

Anybody catch the TV3 Xmas Toy show ? , reason I ask is that I have a rather queasy feeling still re the imagery , outfits and scenery used in that production.

Would someone like to place a screenshot at the just after 1 minute mark up.

As I`m now informed there is the magog and gog pillars , pyramid topped and framing a rather lurid steep angled pyramid , and other symbolism going on that apparently screams Freemasonic ...hmmm childrens Tv eh !

ps the After hours thread re this show was closed , and also I can`t do the links yet , so kindly feel free ))


Mod link added: http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/694/8...stmas-Toy-Show

I personally don#t see anything there myself. Though its good to be aware I think. It#s so easy to hide things in plain sight *something which Masonry does*.

For example, I must have seen hundreds of these advertisements in my life but not once had this occured to me>

degrassinoel

that's definitely a frown to me - slap two eyes under the arms and you have an very angry clock!

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It#s so easy to hide things in plain sight *something which Masonry does*.

Yep, like this...

Or this...

Or even this...

And (my personal favourite of course)


To be fair though, it's not so much hiding stuff in plain sight, as just plain placing it in plain sight. Though there's also this.... incredibly discreet sort of thing



If however, anyone is interested in Masonic imagery which is in plain sight if not so much in your face, have a wander around Bewleys hotel in Ballsbridge which used to be the Masonic Girls School, or see if you can get someone to show you around the roof (particularly the cupola) of the Customs House in Dublin, the architect of which was James Gandon, a Freemason.

Sober Too

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Did you mean this part of the set?
It looks like two disney style fairy tale castle towers flanking a christmas tree shape.. though I might be being misled by the disney song going on in the foreground.
But it does share some strong similarities with the Disney Frozen Castle playset... so I suspect it may have more to do with the Frozen theme evident in the show than a covert Masonic takeover of TV3

Ahh.. Yes of course not forgetting Disney and their whiter than white reputation..indeed !

The Frozen theme is somewhat rather apt given dear Walt (er)`s present cryogenic status and his family background as a 33rd degree Mason and child abuser (allegedly).

But hey when your last words are reportedly Kurt Russell, a 14 year old boy at the time of Walt`s untimely, nothing to see here, ahem ahem.

Now it was an interesting angle you chose ,curious & interesting .It unfortunately wasn`t the straight on shot I had in mind , you know at the just after 1 min mark as mentioned pre.

Still , correct me etc etc , but does our delightful Disneyesque set contain a pyramid shape between those `fairy tale castle towers` which bears more than a passing resemblance to a compass , as in the type found connected to that fabled square.

This website irish-freemasons.org , now NB. the image top right hand corner , the compass and square framed by two delightful pillars ,just that a little more ornately styled than Mr Disney`s mind ))

Absolam

A money making group.

Sober Too wrote: »

Ahh.. Yes of course not forgetting Disney and their whiter than white reputation..indeed ! The Frozen theme is somewhat rather apt given dear Walt (er)`s present cryogenic status and his family background as a 33rd degree Mason and child abuser (allegedly).

I imagine that's exactly what Anita Barrett was thinking when she designed the sets alright... I'll disguise my Masonic mind manipulation theme with a cunning allusion to a popular Disney movie demonstrating my occult servitude to the frozen head of Walt Disney and my secret desire to emulate his (alleged) child abuse. Sure she might as well have painted it on the wall it's so obvious.

Sober Too wrote: »

But hey when your last words are reportedly Kurt Russell, a 14 year old boy at the time of Walt`s untimely, nothing to see here, ahem ahem.

I bet it's that very story (combined with occult numerology of course) that persuaded her that now was the time to build this particular set too. The release of Frozen was just a lucky coincidence (or was it.....:eek:)

Sober Too wrote: »

Now it was an interesting angle you chose ,curious & interesting .It unfortunately wasn`t the straight on shot I had in mind , you know at the just after 1 min mark as mentioned pre.

Unfortunately, the only indication I had of what you had in mind was what you said; the remarkably specific 'just after 1 min mark'. I clipped the image just after the 1 min mark by the way. They did keep moving the camera angle though, so I presume that was part of the conspiracy to keep us guessing.

Sober Too wrote: »

Still , correct me etc etc , but does our delightful Disneyesque set contain a pyramid shape between those `fairy tale castle towers` which bears more than a passing resemblance to a compass , as in the type found connected to that fabled square.

Indeed. Well, a triangular shape anyway, which is a bit like one side of a pyramid. Or the portico of a building. Or castle. Where you'd often find a doorway...... It also looks a bit like a toblerone though, so we ought to consider the Swiss governments involvement with TV3 too.... they can be nefarious! I heard a Swiss person once said Illuminati, so there's that. They might even have used their extreme cold experience in the whole fake snow (and freezing Walt Disney) side of things.

Sober Too wrote: »

This website irish-freemasons.org , now NB. the image top right hand corner , the compass and square framed by two delightful pillars ,just that a little more ornately styled than Mr Disney`s mind ))

Well, you've got us bang to rights there. I can't deny it, it's a Masonic symbol on the Freemasons website for sure.

Sober Too

A group to make contacts.

Indeed you Sir are a genius had I not been so ill informed , many thanks for the faint , if not fractious sounding amusement .

degrassinoel

Keep it civil folks

Torakx

Chicken or the egg?
Disney is known for sexual and masonic symbolism, so this could just be something inherent in the towers design.
To get a better idea, it would help to know if that tv station has a history of using masonic symbolism.

Absolam

A money making group.

Torakx wrote: »

Chicken or the egg?
Disney is known for sexual and masonic symbolism, so this could just be something inherent in the towers design.
To get a better idea, it would help to know if that tv station has a history of using masonic symbolism.

I think that's a bit of a stretch to be honest; Disney isn't know for Masonic symbolism, there are conspiracy theorists who ascribe Masonic symbolism to Disney. As for the sexual bit... the eye of the beholder appears to be a major factor there, to put it mildly.
Unlike actual Masonic symbolism such as on the buildings and monuments above, or the t-shirts, baseball hats, jackets, ties, lapel pins and cufflinks I own, you really have to make a bit of an effort to 'see' Masonic symbolism (and for that matter, every tower is not a penis either) in Disney (and other) movies.
Even the idea that Disney was a Freemason is restricted to the less factually oriented internet sites; he never claimed to be a Mason, no one close to him said he was a Mason, there's no actual evidence of him being a Mason, and tellingly, he doesn't appear on any of the lists of famous Freemasons that American Freemasonry so proudly produces (including the secret ones only 33rd degree Masons see ). If Arnold, Berlusconi, & Hoover can appear on the lists, I doubt anyone is trying to hide Disney.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Are we talking about this Walt Disney?





and this one http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/moondanceroriginals1978/media/tumblr_inline_n19c4vy7H41rdemoh_zpsd3cdd279.png.html

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Are we talking about this Walt Disney?
and this one

We are indeed, the very Walt Disney who was quite openly a proud member of DeMolay International, which I know you know well doesn't make him a Freemason but well done on the fast inference all the same

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

We are indeed, the very Walt Disney who was quite openly a proud member of DeMolay International, which I know you know well doesn't make him a Freemason but well done on the fast inference all the same

They are to Freemasonry what the Hitler Youth was to the NSDAP? Right?

Don't they as a rule call you and your fellow masons "DADs"?