The Freemasons

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

I must have missed where I implied that, perhaps you can quote it for me?

seem
intransitive verb \ˈsēm\

: to appear to be something or to do something : to have a quality, appearance, etc., that shows or suggests a particular characteristic, feeling, etc.

Full Definition of SEEM
1
: to appear to the observation or understanding
2
: to give the impression of being

The Freemasons' core traditions of self-improvement ('making a good man better') and the self-determination for artisans and professionals, as well as quality of service and service to others, were adopted by our modern educational institutions, trade associations and professional bodies.

Was there some other point you were trying to make

Absolam

A money making group.

enno99 wrote: »

Was there some other point you were trying to make

That wasn't a point I made at all; it was a quote from the website you chose. Nor do they seem (per your definition) to be saying these organisations are paragons of virtue, they seem to be saying that the core traditions of Freemasonry, being positive traditions, were adopted by other institutions. But if you could show where they seem to claim those institutions became paragons of virtue as a result, I'd be happy to read it? Otherwise I think you should just admit you made it up. Again.
How are you getting on with the Hells Angels criminal statistics by the way?

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

That wasn't a point I made at all; it was a quote from the website you chose. Nor do they seem (per your definition) to be saying these organisations are paragons of virtue, they seem to be saying that the core traditions of Freemasonry, being positive traditions, were adopted by other institutions. But if you could show where they seem to claim those institutions became paragons of virtue as a result, I'd be happy to read it? Otherwise I think you should just admit you made it up. Again.
How are you getting on with the Hells Angels criminal statistics by the way?

Yea I read it
I want to know why you posted it

If not to equate these institutions that adopt these core traditions of Freemasonry as being of the highest moral standards as you say Freemasonry is

Absolam

A money making group.

enno99 wrote: »

Yea I read it
I want to know why you posted it

That's not what you said. What you said was

enno99 wrote: »

you seem to imply that because they adopt these so called masonic traits they are paragons of virtue

If you wanted to know why I posted it, you could have asked rather than attributing a pejorative statement don't you think? Anyway, the reason I quoted the website was directly above the quote.

Absolam wrote: »

I actually thought this part was quite appropriate to your own recent thoughts;

Having cleared that up for you, perhaps you'll tell us why you're trying to make it seem that corruption in modern educational institutions, trade associations and professional bodies can be associated with the core values of Freemasonry and how far you've gotten with demonstrating that there is a lower percentage of criminals in the Hells Angels than the Freemasons?

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

That's not what you said. What you said was
If you wanted to know why I posted it, you could have asked rather than attributing a pejorative statement don't you think? Anyway, the reason I quoted the website was directly above the quote.


Having cleared that up for you, perhaps you'll tell us why you're trying to make it seem that corruption in modern educational institutions, trade associations and professional bodies can be associated with the core values of Freemasonry and how far you've gotten with demonstrating that there is a lower percentage of criminals in the Hells Angels than the Freemasons?

Load of bollocks

Absolam

A money making group.

enno99 wrote: »

Load of bollocks

That's what I thought, I just didn't want to express it so crudely so I asked you nicely instead.

degrassinoel

these last few posts are enough to give anyone a headache - both of you stay on topic or take it to PM.

enno99

degrassinoel wrote: »

these last few posts are enough to give anyone a headache - both of you stay on topic or take it to PM.

Your right sorry about that

AnonymousBosch

Anyone know?
They seemed to have a few lodges going near and far, then their main website seemed to be going under reconstruction, then they just had a facebook page, and then not long ago - poof! They were gone! Only sign of them online now is a couple of newspaper items from a couple years back, and Pillars of Dublin No. 8 Lodge.

Now there's fertile ground for conspiracy mongering...

Emme

AnonymousBosch wrote: »

Anyone know?
They seemed to have a few lodges going near and far, then their main website seemed to be going under reconstruction, then they just had a facebook page, and then not long ago - poof! They were gone! Only sign of them online now is a couple of newspaper items from a couple years back, and Pillars of Dublin No. 8 Lodge.

Now there's fertile ground for conspiracy mongering...

A family friend is a mason and was giving out recently that there is too much masonic information available online. He said that there was no point in joining now because "everyone can get the secrets on the internet". I didn't think people became freemasons just to get the secrets but maybe the Grand Orient lodge decided it was better not to have an online presence.

Absolam

A money making group.

Emme wrote: »

A family friend is a mason and was giving out recently that there is too much masonic information available online. He said that there was no point in joining now because "everyone can get the secrets on the internet". I didn't think people became freemasons just to get the secrets but maybe the Grand Orient lodge decided it was better not to have an online presence.

I know a few individuals who were actively trying to induce regular Freemasons to join the Grand Orient seem to have pretty much given up over the last couple of years. There was one unsavoury incident which eithneoneill referred to some time ago, which may not have helped their cause, but I think essentially they thought they could grow very quickly by drawing substantial amounts of the membership from the Freemasons into the more 'liberal' format, as well as drawing new members from the public who would be interested but at odds with some of the requirements of Freemasonry. That just didn't really happen, so my guess is they have decided to adopt a more organic approach to growth.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

A group to make contacts.

This is exactly what Ireland needs, yet another Freemasonic organisation. Rejoice!

The Grand Orient of Ireland seems to be very much aligned with their French masonic colleagues, I wonder how the Scottish and York lads feel about this? I hope someone can shed some light. The guy who started this organisation, Eduard Schmidt-Zorner, is clearly not of Irish stock so I wonder is there a turf war going on. They also have a "subsidiary" group in Riga, which appears strange.

degrassinoel

maybe his mother was Irish

Absolam

A money making group.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

This is exactly what Ireland needs, yet another Freemasonic organisation. Rejoice!

Well, they've been around for a while now. They haven't ripped the fabric of society apart yet, so it's seems unlikely they will at this stage.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

The Grand Orient of Ireland seems to be very much aligned with their French masonic colleagues, I wonder how the Scottish and York lads feel about this? I hope someone can shed some light.

Since Scottish and York Rite Freemasonry are both American appendant orders to Freemasonry, they're probably not all that interested. If you're wondering how Irish Freemasons feel about it, you could just read this thread, or this one, or this one. There are a few opinions there.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

The guy who started this organisation, Eduard Schmidt-Zorner, is clearly not of Irish stock so I wonder is there a turf war going on.

The Grand Orients have existed for hundreds of years. Mr Schmidt-Zorner is the first Grand Master of an Irish Grand Orient, he didn't start the organisation, he was just one of those who set up the chapter in Ireland.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

They also have a "subsidiary" group in Riga, which appears strange.

What appears strange about it?

Absolam

A money making group.

degrassinoel wrote: »

maybe his mother was Irish

Of course... the Schmidts of Ballincollig. Well known for the unusual right angle patterns in their Arrans. That's be it alright.

degrassinoel

Ye don't know for certain either

Plenty of non-irish names around here a hundred years ago

Absolam

A money making group.

degrassinoel wrote: »

Ye don't know for certain either Plenty of non-irish names around here a hundred years ago

Also true. However, in the particular case of Mr Schmidt-Zorner, I believe he is actually a resident of Milltown in Kerry, and a native of Germany (though no one has told me which part).

KwackerJack

A money making group.

I love listening to all the weird and sadistic conspiracy theory's from people who obvious watch way to much TV. Makes me laugh!!

Pop up to Molesworth street and have a chat with the chaps in there. Lets see if you find any signs of mass human offerings and sadistic rituals. They do not hide, most lodges are in plain sight.

A group of Men who pass down the Masonic knowledge from member to member. A group of Men who can trust and rely on each other during hard times.

Sound very dodgy to me :rolleyes:


To be accepted as Mason you have to kill your brother............

To be a Guard you need to be a redhead and a GAA player with drink and anger issues and with a daddy who was a super.................


Both sound ridiculous yet some people would believe this. Don't comment on an organisation unless you've had first hand experience of them.

degrassinoel

Read the forum charter before posting here again. Warning issued.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

KwackerJack wrote: »

I love listening to all the weird and sadistic conspiracy theory's from people who obvious watch way to much TV. Makes me laugh!!

Pop up to Molesworth street and have a chat with the chaps in there. Lets see if you find any signs of mass human offerings and sadistic rituals. They do not hide, most lodges are in plain sight.

A group of Men who pass down the Masonic knowledge from member to member. A group of Men who can trust and rely on each other during hard times.

Sound very dodgy to me :rolleyes:


To be accepted as Mason you have to kill your brother............

To be a Guard you need to be a redhead and a GAA player with drink and anger issues and with a daddy who was a super.................


Both sound ridiculous yet some people would believe this. Don't comment on an organisation unless you've had first hand experience of them.

Couple of questions if you don't mind?

1. Do you know what sadistic means?
2. Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?
2. Are you both a) A Freemason and b) A policeman?
3. How does "masonic knowledge" differ from regular knowledge? And why is it kept in the hand of the few?
4. What is your personal opinion of the Sicilian Mafia?

Torakx

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Couple of questions if you don't mind?

1. Do you know what sadistic means?
2. Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?
2. Are you both a) A Freemason and b) A policeman?
3. How does "masonic knowledge" differ from regular knowledge? And why is it kept in the hand of the few?
4. What is your personal opinion of the Sicilian Mafia?

I think we could all guess the answer to question 2B hehe

j80ezgvc3p92xu

A group to make contacts.

I'm of an opinion that is 180 degrees from Kwacker Jack. How can people not do any proper research, just read the crap that is spoon fed to them, and just go on believing that the masons are some sort of a benign charitable organization.

Here are some facts for ya:
As far as I remember the freemasons were attacked in umpteen Papal encyclicals, the most famous of them being Humanum Genus. The Popes were not idiots. These were men who devoted their entire lives to study and prayer. This would make alarm bells ring immediately for most people. The ban on Catholics entering masonic organisations remains to this day. A good thing to google on this topic is the Affaire des Fisches.

Another question would be why would a charitable organization be banned and attacked so many times throughout history? Ever heard of the anti-Masonic party in the US?

Plus if you take the time to research things properly, some of the stuff written by "brothers" is just demented. I'm talking Pike, Manley P. Hall ( reading his book would answer the "Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?" question) and Alister Crowley. Some truly messed up individuals.

Emme

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

I'm of an opinion that is 180 degrees from Kwacker Jack. How can people not do any proper research, just read the crap that is spoon fed to them, and just go on believing that the masons are some sort of a benign charitable organization.

Here are some facts for ya:
As far as I remember the freemasons were attacked in umpteen Papal encyclicals, the most famous of them being Humanum Genus. The Popes were not idiots. These were men who devoted their entire lives to study and prayer. This would make alarm bells ring immediately for most people. The ban on Catholics entering masonic organisations remains to this day. A good thing to google on this topic is the Affaire des Fisches.

There's a fair bit of Masonic and hermetic imagery in the Vatican museum. Some of the stuff there really creeped me out! :eek:

A good thing to google on Freemasonry and the Vatican is Roberto Calvi and P2 lodge.

I personally think Freemasonry is a bit like a Russian doll where you keep taking off layer upon layer to reveal what is within. The people at the outer or initiatory levels may not know what goes on at the core or top levels.

I will not deny that Freemasons are charitable and support the arts. However I find it interesting that some families (Anglo-Irish, Anglo-Norman and other aristocracy) involved in Freemasonry for generations have also been involved in the Golden Dawn, Thelema and other occult societies. I did a tour of a stately home in Ireland over the summer and the masonic and other connections were in plain sight, so to speak. There is a vast difference between these masons and the masons who come from working class or middle class backgrounds.

Torakx

Where do the Jesuits come in?

Absolam

A money making group.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

I'm of an opinion that is 180 degrees from Kwacker Jack. How can people not do any proper research, just read the crap that is spoon fed to them, and just go on believing that the masons are some sort of a benign charitable organization.

In fairness, how can people not do any proper research, just read the crap that is spoon fed to them, and just go on believing that the masons are some sort of a evil moneygrabbing organization.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Here are some facts for ya:
As far as I remember the freemasons were attacked in umpteen Papal encyclicals, the most famous of them being Humanum Genus. The Popes were not idiots. These were men who devoted their entire lives to study and prayer.

Yep the Popes have never shown any interest in secular power or wealth and have been a byword for incorruptibility and keeping their vows throughout the centuries. If they don't like Freemasons they must have a good reason alright.

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

This would make alarm bells ring immediately for most people. The ban on Catholics entering masonic organisations remains to this day. A good thing to google on this topic is the Affaire des Fisches.

Although it won't explain why the RCC is at odds with Freemasonry. So it's really more of a good thing to google that's not on this topic :-)

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Another question would be why would a charitable organization be banned and attacked so many times throughout history? Ever heard of the anti-Masonic party in the US?

Indeed, why have totalitarians regime made it a point to suppress the Freemasons? No smoke without fire, right? Ever see how much public support the anti-Masonic party in the US gained? They lasted a whole decade in the early 1800s, and if they never managed to elect any Senators, they did get a few men into Congress. Definitely a party that almost had a future...

Harlow Chubby Swimmer wrote: »

Plus if you take the time to research things properly, some of the stuff written by "brothers" is just demented. I'm talking Pike, Manley P. Hall ( reading his book would answer the "Is this "member to member" action in your all-boys club with locked doors some kind of ritual?" question) and Alister Crowley. Some truly messed up individuals.

Well there's a damning inditement indeed. Since you're obviously a chap who researches things properly, I look forward to your insights on the intricacies of the thinking behind Morals & Dogma.

Absolam

A money making group.

Emme wrote: »

A good thing to google on Freemasonry and the Vatican is Roberto Calvi and P2 lodge.

That's true; especially if you read the historical accounts rather than the consporacy theories.

Emme wrote: »

I personally think Freemasonry is a bit like a Russian doll where you keep taking off layer upon layer to reveal what is within. The people at the outer or initiatory levels may not know what goes on at the core or top levels.

I'm never surprised when someone who doesn't know about Freemasonry says that. It seems to be a go to position when confronted with people who actually know about the order. "Ah, you're just too low a level to know what's really going on. You have to have never been there but spend lots of time on the internet to know what's going on at the top!".

Emme wrote: »

There is a vast difference between these masons and the masons who come from working class or middle class backgrounds.

Do you mean other than the vast difference due to their aristocratic upbringing?

Emme

Absolam wrote: »

That's true; especially if you read the historical accounts rather than the consporacy theories.
I'm never surprised when someone who doesn't know about Freemasonry says that.

You mean non-Freemasons. According to this Masonic website the three degrees of Blue Lodge Freemasonry are Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason. Surely an Entered Apprentice has less knowledge of Freemasonry than a Master Mason? If not what is the point of having different degrees at all?

http://www.mastermason.com/jjcrowder/threedegrees/threedegrees.htm

Absolam wrote: »

It seems to be a go to position when confronted with people who actually know about the order. "Ah, you're just too low a level to know what's really going on. You have to have never been there but spend lots of time on the internet to know what's going on at the top!".

I don't know what level you are at and I am not going to ask, it is not my business as a non-Mason. However, I know of some Masons who are very annoyed at the level of Masonic information available on the internet. One man said that there was no point in joining a society with secrets when the secrets were available to all and sundry on the internet. Having said that, it is a lot easier for someone who already knows the secrets to wade through the murk of disinformation regarding Freemasonry. A non-Mason would not find the secrets or information so easily online.

Absolam wrote: »

Do you mean other than the vast difference due to their aristocratic upbringing?

Yes. Many aristocratic families would have had ancestors who studied alchemy and other subjects on the Continent and joined secret societies overseas with similar ideologies to Freemasonry. One of these families had a member who helped to set up Irish Freemasonry.

This founder had an ancestor who studied alchemy abroad and people in Ireland who did not understand alchemy thought he was monkeying around with the devil. You may know which family I am talking about, they have strong links with the Grand Lodge of Ireland. Stories abound about this man's "spells" which are regarded as amusing folklore today. I suppose there is a parallel with disinformation about modern Freemasonry spread by those of us who don't know about it.

I believe (rightly or wrongly) that there are parallels with the study of Freemasonry and alchemy and that the knowledge of many secret societies stems from alchemy. When I visited the Grand Lodge in Dublin our Masonic guide told us that Masons who study the history and theory of Freemasonry are speculative Masons. Perhaps I didn't hear him properly but you may know what he was talking about.

There is a link between alchemy and the Great Mystery Schools (Pythagoras etc.) and some secret societies spring from this. Therefore there may be parallels between these secret societies and Freemasonry. The aristocracy had the time and resources to study this topic and to join secret societies such as the Golden Dawn. Perhaps those in such secret societies may have different expectations of Masonic membership to those who join from working and middle class backgrounds.

Torakx

So no Jesuit involvement? Or is it a key question better avoided lol

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Torakx wrote: »

I think we could all guess the answer to question 2B hehe

:pac: yeah, I was just joking, but male-to-male anal sex is part of the thelemic rituals. For example, Crowley, a Freemason, who modelled his OTO on freemasonry, took some Jewish poet into the desert and raped him day after day as part of a ritual. They really are sick ****s, they (OTO) have a degree where the blood caused by the anal sex is used as part of the ritual

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Torakx wrote: »

So no Jesuit involvement? Or is it a key question better avoided lol

ha, yeah, we can add it to the same list with whether kwacker is both a freemason and a police man. JFK would not approve.

The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings

Actually, a question I would like to ask is considering:

(a) Freemason's care about charity.
(b) Freemasonry "makes a good man better".

Why don't they share there secret knowledge with everyone to make the world a better place? A lesser man made better is still an upgrade...