1916 - Did only Dublin Rise?

kreuzberger

you are correct , he became a naturalised dubliner . However there was no "6 counties" at the time. Partition seems to have become part of some peoples inner psychology . Not only permanent now but historically continuous

man1

randylonghorn wrote: »

They were actually very mixed, Jer, though I don't have detailed figures to hand either.

I'm inclined to agree with Hagar that it really isn't the point he's targetting, but for interest sake, birthplace at least of the leaders:

Signatories

Tom Clarke - Isle of wight (Tyrone family)
P Pearse - Dublin
James Connolly - Monaghan (80% sure! )
Plunkett - Dublin
Eamonn Ceannt - Galway
Thomas MacDonagh - Tipp
Sean MacDermott - Leitrim

Other
Ned Daly - Limerick
Markievicz - Sligo (I think, Gore-Booths Sligo family anyway)
DeValera - lots of stories, NY, on ship, etc., but he grew up in Clare anyway.

(Who am I forgetting?)

Outside
Tomás Aghas - Kerry
Richard Mulcahy - Waterford
MacCurtain - Cork
Mellowes - GalwayCasement - b. Dublin, albeit Belfast family
Various Wexford people already mentioned ...

kk, may remember more later

Wasn't Mellows born in England?

Red Hand

kreuzberger wrote: »

you are correct , he became a naturalised dubliner . However there was no "6 counties" at the time. Partition seems to have become part of some peoples inner psychology . Not only permanent now but historically continuous

Ulster has a long history of being a little different from the rest of Ireland...its no accident that Cuchulain was a mascot for Unionists for years, a defender of Ulster from the men of Eireann.

boneless

man1 wrote: »

Wasn't Mellows born in England?

I seem to recall that. I can't find my copy of the Greaves biography anywhere though to check it out.

McArmalite

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Ulster has a long history of being a little different from the rest of Ireland...its no accident that Cuchulain was a mascot for Unionists for years, a defender of Ulster from the men of Eireann.

Yes our unionist friends have tried to hijack the Cú Chulainn legend like they 'invented' the Ulster Scotch 'language'. Sad. But that's unionism for you, a twisted, sad condition of the human mind.

man1 wrote: »

Wasn't Mellows born in England?

Mellows was born in Manchester, England to William Mellows, a british Army officer, and Sarah Jordan, of Inch, Co Wexford, BTW, Pearse's father was English.

boneless

^^ Just found Greaves book... spot on!

Pathfinder

Dinter wrote: »

There was an artillery position sited outside Trinity College that included a dismounted gun from the Helga. That gives less reason for indirect fire. An Australian working as an artillery spotter disrupted the rebels communications by shooting the wire that led from the GPO to Clearys that the rebels were sending messages back and forth on in a tin can. He was from the OTC at Trinners.



Most of the damage was caused by incendiary rounds that caused fires that were not dealt with as the brigade wouldn't go out for nearly a week.



I don't think so. During the Rising the British commandeered Guinness lorries and converted them into armoured cars by cutting loopholes in the sides. A bit ott if they had real ones available.

The Sherwood Foresters were slaughtered as they were inexperienced and uninformed by command to such an extent that some believed they were in France (some of them were amazed that the "French" had such good English). Their tactics and officers were inflexible (Baggot St. bridge 300 yards away was undefended) and too disciplined (in that they would not adapt and wouldnot break. They continued with headlong charges).

Really Pathfinder if you look at their history and see just what battle they were decimated in before Dublin you'll have a pretty good idea of their officer's mindset. How they could lead men to be butchered as they were.

It is lucky that the only automatic weapon that any of the rebels had at Mount St was De Valera's Mauser pistol. If they were armed with magazine fed Lee Enfields instead of the old Mauser one shot, the carnage would have been far worse.

HMS Helga was shelling from the Liffey.

I dont see how the rebels could take out 240 soldiers, who had launched an assault, with one shot victorian rifles, at one junction. Some of the Sherwood Foresters NCOs would have been in the trenches, only a year before, so their NCOs were experienced. Much of the centre of Dublin was flattened by inaccurate artillery fire, how could that not have caused many casulties ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_Muirch%C3%BA


LÉ Muirchú was a ship in the Irish Naval Service.

She was originally the Royal Navy ship HMS Helga and was famously involved in shelling Liberty Hall in Dublin from the River Liffey during the Easter Rising of 1916.

Later, she was purchased by the Irish Free State and renamed the Muirchú ("Hound of the Sea" in Irish).

Hagar

Pathfinder wrote: »

I dont see how the rebels could take out 240 soldiers, who had launched an assault, with one shot victorian rifles, at one junction. Some of the Sherwood Foresters NCOs would have been in the trenches, only a year before, so their NCOs were experienced. Much of the centre of Dublin was flattened by inaccurate artillery fire, how could that not have caused many casulties ?

They had bolt action rifles, much the same as the British had. Saying they were Victorian makes them sound very old now but almost 100 yrs ago they were "modern" armaments. They also the advantage of fighting from pre-prepared defensive positions and the Officers and NCO leading the British troops had a trench warfare mentality ie throw more bodies at the guns. Your knowledge of Dublin must be a little limited. Clanwilliam House / Mount St Bridge is on the Southside nowhere near the city centre and the artillery from the Helga and Trinity was mostly concentrated on targets a couple of miles away on the Northside.

McArmalite

Hagar wrote: »

They had bolt action rifles, much the same as the British had. Saying they were Victorian makes them sound very old now but almost 100 yrs ago they were "modern" armaments. They also the advantage of fighting from pre-prepared defensive positions and the Officers and NCO leading the British troops had a trench warfare mentality ie throw more bodies at the guns. Your knowledge of Dublin must be a little limited. Clanwilliam House / Mount St Bridge is on the Southside nowhere near the city centre and the artillery from the Helga and Trinity was mostly concentrated on targets a couple of miles away on the Northside.

Indeed Hagar," a trench warfare mentality ie throw more bodies at the guns ". Some mentality all right.

kreuzberger

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Ulster has a long history of being a little different from the rest of Ireland..

yes , it was the last province to submit to British rule , after being thoroughly destroyed and planted . The gaelic tradition was always strongest and fiercest there
Connacht was laso a little different from Leinster, which was a little different from Munster . But there you go . Vive la difference

.its no accident that Cuchulain was a mascot for Unionists for years, a defender of Ulster from the men of Eireann

yes literally years .
From around 1993 after the nutty racist geneticist former Lord Mayor of Belfast Ian Adamson released a book called " The Cruithin" claiming that Ulsters loyalists were actually a long lost tribe driven from Ulster by the nasty Gaels , who had now returned to their spritual and genetic homeland . It made the case that opposition to a united Ireland and sectarian tribalism was to do with genetics and repressed genetic folk memories which actually resided in peoples blood of all places . Its pretty bizarre and racist stuff . This must have come as a great surprise to loyalists who spent the best part of the 70s and 80s sort of believing they were the lost tribe of Israel , only to find out they were a lost tribe of scots pictish pre celtic god knows what . Strange too as the vast majority of them are of the Anglican faith which isnt very popular in scotland .
It was handy for a while to get up the noses of the taigs to adopt Irish mythology to justify walking into a bar and machine gunning pensioners with British supplied south african weapons . They also adopted celtic jerseys and the traditional IRA term "Active service unit " to describe the coked up misfits who were machine gunning bar patrons on a regular basis on behalf of the British governemnt.
Cu Chulainn was later replaced with the skeleton from Iron Maiden and George best . Seems to have been a passing phase .

Fratton Fred

kreuzberger wrote: »

Strange too as the vast majority of them are of the Anglican faith which isnt very popular in scotland .
It was handy for a while to get up the noses of the taigs to adopt Irish mythology to justify walking into a bar and machine gunning pensioners with British supplied south african weapons . They also adopted celtic jerseys and the traditional IRA term "Active service unit " to describe the coked up misfits who were machine gunning bar patrons on a regular basis on behalf of the British governemnt.
Cu Chulainn was later replaced with the skeleton from Iron Maiden and George best . Seems to have been a passing phase .

I didn't think McArmalite would ever have a rival for ranter of the year. I admit I was wrong.

I was always under the impression most of the hardline unionists were Presbytarian, in line with Ian Paisley.

Are you able to find any evidence to support your accusations that the arms from south africa were british supplied, or that bar patron were machined gunned on behalf of the British Government, or is this more history according to an Phoblacht?

kreuzberger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I didn't think McArmalite would ever have a rival for ranter of the year. I admit I was wrong.

I was always under the impression most of the hardline unionists were Presbytarian, in line with Ian Paisley.

That makes you wrong on a number of issues . For a start Ian Paisley is not even a presbyterian . His Free Presbyterian church is an invention of his own and not even an offshoot of the main presbyterian assembly . Presbyterians themselves were a minority originally discriminated against by the Penal laws and persecuted by the Orange order , which only allowed membership of the majority anglican faith

Are you able to find any evidence to support your accusations that the arms from south africa were british supplied, or that bar patron were machined gunned on behalf of the British Government, or is this more history according to an Phoblacht?

Personaly I wouldnt rely on An Phoblacht to blow my nose . The evidence that Britain imported large amounts of weaponry from aparthied south africa and distributed it to loyalists under their control is extensive and not even contested by anyone at this stage . Im more than happy to discuss it in detail and at length but that would be another thread and Id prefer not to derail this one about 1916 onto another issue .
If you are genuinely interested in the subject though Id simply suggest googling the following terms

Brian Nelson , FRU , South Africa

Torrens Knight , Greysteel , collusion

Mark Haddock , Loughinisland , collusion

Fratton Fred

kreuzberger wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That makes you wrong on a number of issues . For a start Ian Paisley is not even a presbyterian . His Free Presbyterian church is an invention of his own and not even an offshoot of the main presbyterian assembly . Presbyterians themselves were a minority originally discriminated against by the Penal laws and persecuted by the Orange order , which only allowed membership of the majority anglican faith



Personaly I wouldnt rely on An Phoblacht to blow my nose . The evidence that Britain imported large amounts of weaponry from aparthied south africa and distributed it to loyalists under their control is extensive and not even contested by anyone at this stage . Im more than happy to discuss it in detail and at length but that would be another thread and Id prefer not to derail this one about 1916 onto another issue .
If you are genuinely interested in the subject though Id simply suggest googling the following terms

Brian Nelson , FRU , South Africa

Torrens Knight , Greysteel , collusion

Mark Haddock , Loughinisland , collusion

I'll read them up, thanks.

Shutuplaura

Pathfinder wrote: »

HMS Helga was shelling from the Liffey.

I dont see how the rebels could take out 240 soldiers, who had launched an assault, with one shot victorian rifles, at one junction. Some of the Sherwood Foresters NCOs would have been in the trenches, only a year before, so their NCOs were experienced. Much of the centre of Dublin was flattened by inaccurate artillery fire, how could that not have caused many casulties ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_Muirch%C3%BA


LÉ Muirchú was a ship in the Irish Naval Service.

She was originally the Royal Navy ship HMS Helga and was famously involved in shelling Liberty Hall in Dublin from the River Liffey during the Easter Rising of 1916.

Later, she was purchased by the Irish Free State and renamed the Muirchú ("Hound of the Sea" in Irish).

Ah Charles, the merry dance continues.
While a small part of the capital was destroyed during the rising, it was almost all done by fire from incinidary shells.
The Sherwoods were, as stated categorically by every source I've ever come across, wholly inexperienced. They were not led by soldiers from the trenches and were at the time a home service unit. The Somme battle showed how tactically naive the British Army was at the time. Richard Holmes, who probably knows more on the subject than anyone else alive and is a leading apologist for British army leadership in WW1 acknowledges this. If there were some experiences officers or NCO's they were in the extreme minority. Its also likely that a number of these veterns could have been sent home as being unfit for active duty - it happens in every army dduring every war. During the Boer War it was refered to as being Stellenboshed from the town they were typically assigned to. Kipling has s poem about it. Robert Graves in Goodbye to All That also talks openly of the poor quality of soldiers sent home from the front as hopeless and the fear it would happen to him. He also pulls no punches on the overall quality of training the New armies recieved in general. Charles Charrington in Soldiers from the War Returning, besides also noting that the new armies, of which the Shwerwood battalions involved were part of, were a poor instrument well into their participation in the Somme Battle where through trial and error the British Army finally developed the professionalism needed to beat the Germans. He is of particular interest becasue he eventually served throughout two world Wars and wrote his memoirs in the light of this extra experience.

Meanwhile the rebels in the mount street area were using Irish Citizen Army tactics wqhich were more advanced than those used by the Irish Volunteers. There was only a handfull and although armed with largely obselete weapons there was still enough of them there to keep a large body of men pinned down. teh engagement lasted several hours. The rebels fired from multiple positions overlooking the road. The most obsolete rifle possible used, the howth mauser was still a breech cartridge firisng rifle and a trained user - and the Volunteers were trained users could easily squeeze off a number of rounds a minute - into massed ranks where one bulet could find multiple targets, it would be the easiest thing in the world.

When the British army finally started using impovised armoured cars it used ones made in Guiness's brewrey. It would have extremely difficult for direct communication between the D4 area and the Guiness brewrey, and certainly more important rebel garrisons than Clanwilliam house lay between the two areas of the city. The Armoured car were used to greatest effect in the North King street area where the soldiers, scared kids that they were were often compelled to leave them only by armed officers threats. The fighting in this area so brutalised the British soldiers than they carried out a number or reprisals against the local civilian population.

The simple reason why few if any British army casulties were from artillary was becasue the majority of artillary was used in a direct fire role against rebels in known strongholds. The army's strategy - which was excellent in contrast to much of its tactics - was to hem the rebels into their garrisons and blast the ****e out of them. Helga fired at targets unseen in O'connell street early in the week when the inner city was in the rebels hands and the only victims could have been them or civilians. And anyway, the Helga had what, one gun? and was a small fisharies protection craft. Its use ended later in the week once the army occupied the top of O'Connell street, and the army was able to bring its own heavy weaponry to bear from barricades along Parnell square.

You might be alowing yourself to get confused by the fact that in France during the First World War something like 10 percent of all soldiers would have been killed by their own artillary, usually fired indirectly in creeping barages. The conditions in Dublin were vastly different.

Lauder

Hagar wrote: »

You have misread my post. There were only 7 men in Clanwilliam House Link. I said a dozen to include a nearby detachment of volunteers at 25 Northumberland Rd. Claims that many British soldiers were killed by their own artillery were easier to swallow than Paddy kicking seven shades of shyness out of them.

Here's a link from a British historical site.

The "British Soldiers" killed at that scene, was also in fact army reservists (1st Bat. Georgius Rex Volunteer Training Corps) whom were unarmed. The rebels were no heros. The incident at Northumberland Road took place on the first day of the 1916 Rising: Monday 24th April 1916. The Volunteer Corps did not know that the Rising had even taken place.

There is a plaque on the wall of Clanwilliam, 25 Northumberland Road, which is probably the house from which the rebels fired on the volunteers. It commemorates Lieutenant Michael Malone, one of the rebels who died there the following day, Tuesday 25th April 1916. There is, as yet, no plaque to the volunteers who died there.

Shutuplaura

Some Georgous Wrecks were killed but it was mostly Sherwood Forresters who were definately British army so i think you have your wires crossed.

kreuzberger

all those killed were British army , whether in foreign regiments or native collaborators with the British regime . The insurgents acted properly in targetting those in enemy uniform . The fact some of them werent armed at the begiining is their superiors fault and not that of the insurgents .

kreuzberger

Lauder wrote: »

The "British Soldiers" killed at that scene, was also in fact army reservists (1st Bat. Georgius Rex Volunteer Training Corps) whom were unarmed. The rebels were no heros.

i think youll find most people in Ireland regarded them as such immediately afterwards , and most people still do in fact .

The incident at Northumberland Road took place on the first day of the 1916 Rising: Monday 24th April 1916. The Volunteer Corps did not know that the Rising had even taken place.

had they volunteered to fight for their own countrys sovereignty as opposed to volunteering for a British regiment they would not only have been armed , in full knowlege that an insurgency had commenced but honoured also .

There is a plaque on the wall of Clanwilliam, 25 Northumberland Road, which is probably the house from which the rebels fired on the volunteers. It commemorates Lieutenant Michael Malone, one of the rebels who died there the following day, Tuesday 25th April 1916. There is, as yet, no plaque to the volunteers who died there

most nations prefer not to erect honours to enemy troops , deeming it highly inappropriate .

Victor

From wikipedia, other sources give similar figures. The figures given for the Sherwood Foresters would appear to include all casualties, including injuries.

Casualties and losses
Rebels 82 killed, 1,617 wounded, 16 executed
Army 157 killed, 318 wounded
Civilians 220 killed, 600 wounded

Hagar wrote: »

I think the reality of the Dubliners getting shot and shelled was too much for some people so they didn't commit to the battle.

I'm not sure that's a fair comment. They were told to stand down and did so.

kreuzberger wrote: »

they were indeed great men , the finest this nation has ever produced . And their greatness was such that they werent out to make a gesture but inflict total physical defeat on the occupying forces . I believe they were capable of doing this and this is what they fully intended to do .

I disagree. Pearse wanted his little blood sacrifice and was willing to turn other people into heros obtaining it. Note: most heros are dead.

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes our unionist friends have tried to hijack the Cú Chulainn legend like they 'invented' the Ulster Scotch 'language'.

Off-topic isn't it. Scots was the language of Burns Ulsters Scots is the Scots that was spoken in Ulster.

Shutuplaura wrote: »

When the British army finally started using impovised armoured cars it used ones made in Guiness's brewrey. It would have extremely difficult for direct communication between the D4 area and the Guiness brewrey, and certainly more important rebel garrisons than Clanwilliam house lay between the two areas of the city.

You forget that there are roads outside the city centre. The army had a cordon along the Grand Canal and that or any road outside it could have been used.

kreuzberger

I disagree. Pearse wanted his little blood sacrifice and was willing to turn other people into heros obtaining it.

I disagree completely . The scale and intricacy of the planned rebellion was such that the notion of one mans desire to have a blood sacrifice , somehow roping in all these naieve , impressionable passive participants en route ( including imperial germany) is preposterous . Not to mention insulting to the memory of those insurgents who died . Indeed all those who fought on the Irish side . At one stage Connolly was going to launch one on his own intitative and had to be roped in by Pearse and admitted to the IRB military council in order to prevent it . Connolly believed prior to that Pearse had no intention of launching a revolt .The dumbed down illogical , indeed mythical scenario you paint simply does not stand up to any rational scrutiny of actual events . Not in the slightest .

Note: most heros are dead.

hmmm..you seem to criticise the Irish insurgency on the grounds people got killed .
Id point out to you the gorgeous wrecks and sherwood foresters got killed too , but arent regarded remotely as heroes .

Victor

kreuzberger wrote: »

I disagree completely . The scale and intricacy of the planned rebellion was such that the notion of one mans desire to have a blood sacrifice , somehow roping in all these naieve , impressionable passive participants en route ( including imperial germany) is preposterous . Not to mention insulting to the memory of those insurgents who died . Indeed all those who fought on the Irish side . At one stage Connolly was going to launch one on his own intitative and had to be roped in by Pearse and admitted to the IRB military council in order to prevent it . Connolly believed prior to that Pearse had no intention of launching a revolt .The dumbed down illogical , indeed mythical scenario you paint simply does not stand up to any rational scrutiny of actual events . Not in the slightest .

I disagree. Your points are somewhere between coloured and fantasy. If Easter Sunday had gone ahead, then fair enough, it was a popular uprising or somewhere in that direction. It might have got a result or at least brought things to a head sooner and avoided the War of Independence and with cooler heads the Civil War.

Easter Monday, with plans compromised, was merely foolhardy and Pearse knew it. And all these years on, we still don't have what he had people die for. thats 7,000 people dead and endless misdirection of resources.

hmmm..you seem to criticise the Irish insurgency on the grounds people got killed . Id point out to you the gorgeous wrecks and sherwood foresters got killed too , but arent regarded remotely as heroes .

Heroes are often dead. I didn't say the dead were often heroes.

Shutuplaura

Victor wrote: »

From wikipedia, other sources give similar figures. The figures given for the Sherwood Foresters would appear to include all casualties, including injuries.

You forget that there are roads outside the city centre. The army had a cordon along the Grand Canal and that or any road outside it could have been used.

I agree that the Mount Street Bridge action didn't result in 200+ British army killed, but 200+ casulties. According to John Keegan the ratio of wounded to killed in WW1 casulty figures was about 3/1.

About the armoured cars. True, they could have driven the cars far outside the city and back in by Mount street but it seems unlikely. I'm honestly not sure the military controlled the Grand Canal at that early stage in the rebellion anyway - Portobello Bridge was also the scene of some fighting. I'm also guessing that the cars were only used towards the end of the week becasue they probably took some time to construct. Regardless of that point, Pathfingers assertations on the matter are clearly nonsense.

kreuzberger

Victor wrote: »

I disagree. Your points are somewhere between coloured and fantasy. If Easter Sunday had gone ahead, then fair enough, it was a popular uprising or somewhere in that direction. It might have got a result or at least brought things to a head sooner and avoided the War of Independence and with cooler heads the Civil War.

Easter Monday, with plans compromised, was merely foolhardy and Pearse knew it. And all these years on, we still don't have what he had people die for. thats 7,000 people dead and endless misdirection of resources.
Heroes are often dead. I didn't say the dead were often heroes.

are you claiming there was a rising planned for easter sunday ?

Shutuplaura

kreuzberger wrote: »

are you claiming there was a rising planned for easter sunday ?

Is that not the case?

King Ludvig

"Did only Dublin rise?"

No! In fact the only successful engagement in the entire country took place in Ashbourne Co Meath. The rising in Ashbourne was carried out by the 5th battalion of the Dublin Brigade, known in the area as ‘The Fingal Volunteers’. Thomas Ashe was the commandant in charge of these (roughly) 60 men. His second in command was Richard Mulcahy. The Fingal Volunteers managed to capture 4 RIC police barracks in the area. They also took almost 90 prisioners after a five and a half hour battle. In the end, after winning the battle, they we given the order from Pearse to surrender.
The guerrilla style tactics of the Fingal Volunteers set the example, for the style of fighting displayed in the War of Independence.

toomevara

Forgive me folks for going slightly OT here, but an English friend has asked me to recommend a book on the Easter Rising. I'd like to recommend something nuanced and subtle, not a hagiographical, self-congratulation fest. Does anyone have a recommendation that might fit the bill? I've read Tim Pat Coogan's latest tome, but found it just a little too star struck for my taste....

Snickers Man

Hagar wrote: »

Inspired by an AH thread.

I put forward that the garrison of less than a dozen men in Clanwilliam House killed more British soldiers ( 213 Sherwood Foresters if memory serves) than the rest of the country managed with their combined effort. I say the country let Dublin down when push came to shove. The country folk squandered a chance to divide the British Forces, instead they allowed country garrisons to be called back to Dublin to quell the Rising when they should have been fighting for their lives against Insurgents in barracks scattered around the country.

What say you?

Just goes to show that when push comes to shove you don't mess with the D4's coz like, roysh, we will wollop the LORD out of you.

Let the Corkmen claim their red jerseys signify the "blood and bandages". When the chips were down it was the nampy pamby latte drinkers (or whatever the 1916 equivalent was, Bovril probably) who you wanted on your side in the trenches. Or even on the barricades.

Sorry, I'm getting all sweaty at the prospect of Munster coming to the RDS this Saturday.

Bring it ONNN!!!!