1916 - Did only Dublin Rise?

kreuzberger

EamonnKeane wrote: »

The name "Rebel County" has nothing to do with the IRA - it actually refers to Cork's support of Perkin Warbeck in 1495.


Markiewicz was extremely bloodthirsty - she kissed her pistol before she handed it to the Army in surrender. As for "sobbed and pleaded for her own life", that is possible - there are two extremely conflicting accounts of her conduct before the court martial.

there is one plausible account and one abslutely hysterical account written much later by a British propagandist who was present . The records of her court martial dont say any such thing . Interestingly DeValeras court martial record disappeared .

Hagar

I know communications 100 years ago were not what they are today but phones worked. I very much doubt that cutting telegraph cables in the GPO completely isolated Dublin from the rest of the country. I'm fairly sure that the Volunteer movement would have had an independent communications network in place after all they were planning a nationwide rising. Irish men and women worked in every phone exchange up and down the country and I seriously doubt that the Volunteers hadn't infiltrated their own personnel into key positions. It was the sort of thing that they were good at. Some country locations rose out, others knew of the Rising but seemed to shy away and adopted a wait and see policy so there was a definite awareness of the Rising nationwide.

Some posters have made the point that the British baulked at attacking large forces of Volunteers, ie Cork so why didn't the Volunteers take them on? The British clearly had no stomach for an even fight and could have been beaten in local engagements. A rising in Cork on the scale of the one in Dublin would have made serious problems for the British. Throw in a few more like the stand made in Wexford and the flying column type engagements in Galway and we would have had a whole new ballgame. There were enough Volunteers across the country to make it impossible for the British to travel safely from town to town.

The fact remains that there were only a handful of casualties inflicted on the British outside Dublin. I think the reality of the Dubliners getting shot and shelled was too much for some people so they didn't commit to the battle. In my mind it casts a doubt on the resolve and staunchness of some of the people involved.

I can never again accuse the Apprentice Boys of living on past glories, 1688 having learned that Cork is the Rebel County based on an incident in 1485.


AFAIK James Connolly was born in Glasgow, DeValera was born in New York, it was his US citizenship that saved him from execution apparently.

Fratton Fred

randylonghorn wrote: »

Casement - b. Dublin, albeit Belfast family

Sandycove actually, next to Day dreams beauty salon in Sandycove village(Although I'm sure it wasn't there in his day) There's a plaque on the house he was born in.

interesting character, I've often wondered what made him turn against the government he worked for. off topic, I'm sorry, but can anyone recommend any books on the guy?

Hagar

Morning Fred.

In the course of his work Casement became privy to facts that made him re-evaluate his perception of the way Britain ruled it's dominions.

Have a look at this link, I think it will answer you question in more detail.
Sorry I can't recommend a book but I'm sure someone will later.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

Morning Fred.

In the course of his work Casement became privy to facts that made him re-evaluate his perception of the way Britain ruled it's dominions.

Have a look at this link, I think it will answer you question in more detail.
Sorry I can't recommend a book but I'm sure someone will later.

Thanks for that. I do like the way that the British used his homosexuality to discredit him, whereas his defenders claimed that no way could an Irish Patriot be homosexual. I guess political correctness was still a long way off!!

four years after accpeting a knighthood he suddenly commits an act of treason (aiding the Germans was an act of treason, although his motives are understandable). It just seems odd.

Pathfinder

kreuzberger wrote: »

Pathfinder wrote: »

.




rubbish . Im surprised though you havent blamed them on bubonic plague from searching filthy Irish houses full of used tampons



really ? British soldiers were firing their rifles from OConnell street the whole fecking way out to Dublin bay at a target they couldnt even see ?



Nelsons column gave them a precise range and firing point from any popint in the city , OConnell street was methodically and accurately flattened . As was Liberty Hall .

Inaccurate supporting fire came from a Royal Navy warship in Dublin bay.

Which is also what caused most of the damage to buildings.

The Sherwood Foresters had armoured cars, so the claim they lost 245 men in a crossfire can't be accurate.

Although they did lose dozens of men when a frontal assault was ordered.

Hagar

The Helga did not fire from Dublin Bay. It came up the Liffey as far as it could until blocked by the bridge and simply flattened all the buildings between itself and its target until it could bring fire directly to bear. It made a point of flattening Liberty Hall while it was at it.

Dozens does not describe it, I believe the correct figure for dead was 213 Sherwood Foresters. I'll see if I can find a link to back it up.

Pathfinder

Hagar wrote: »

The Helga did not fire from Dublin Bay. It came up the Liffey as far as it could until blocked by the bridge and simply flattened all the buildings between itself and its target until it could bring fire directly to bear. It made a point of flattening Liberty Hall while it was at it.

Dozens does not describe it, I believe the correct figure for dead was 213 Sherwood Foresters. I'll see if I can find a link to back it up.

I know a full frontal assault was ordered but 213 seems too high especially as armoured cars gave support.

And a RN warship did give inaccurate supporting fire.

Hagar

Wikipedia gives the figure at over 240. I don'r rely too much on Wikipedia but it close enough to figures that I#ve read previously. I don't think they had armoured cars at the start of the battle if they ever took part at all. It was a well planned ambush and they took massive casualties before they even started the madness of frontal assaults. Those assaults were pure suicide.

Pathfinder

Hagar wrote: »

No Immediate figures to hand.

The point is that the rising was not geographically spread to cause maximum effect.
It could be argued that Dubliners living in Cork or elsewhere would have fought shoulder to shoulder with Corkmen had Cork risen at the time, just as countrymen fought with Dubliners in Dublin. But it's a moot point as the country didn't rise when it was needed.

My point is inaccurate fire from a RN warship which damaged many buildings also caused many British casulties, as its recorded it also hit their positions.

kmick

What we do know...
The rising happened in Dublin and was not supported countrywide.
Countrywide the order had been to stand down.
Arms that were needed to support the rising were captured by the British.

So now Hagar your point is that the rest of the country were cowards and only the good old dubs had the courage to stand against the British empire?

When did you turn 15?

Pádraic Pearse Dublin
Thomas MacDonagh Tipperary
Thomas James Clarke Tyrone (via Isle of wight)
Joseph Mary Plunkett Dublin
Edward Daly Limerick
Michael O'Hanrahan Wexford
William Pearse Dublin
John mcBride Westport
Con Colbert Limerick
Eamonn Ceannt Galway
Micheal Mallin Dublin
James Connolly Dublin via Cork via Edinburgh

The Irish people were well represented by strong men from Munster, Connacht and Ulster.

Hagar

I'm sure there could have been friendly fire casualties. TBH many of the figures will be distorted in favour of whoever published them. This is true for both sides.
The British would have played down the whole thing, they had enough to worry them in Europe. It wouldn't do to say that there was significant uprising on their doorstep. They would have played it as being a skirmish a few crazed traitors of no importance. It has also be claimed, but cannot be verified, that the British casualties in Dublin were understated and that many of those killed in Dublin were recorded on official records as having died in France. Could be total BS but then again...

Hagar

kmick wrote: »

So now Hagar your point is that the rest of the country were cowards and only the good old dubs had the courage to stand against the British empire?

When did you turn 15?

That's a rather harsh intrepretation. I'm just saying Dublin largely stood alone against the British and yet we live under the constant insult of being branded West Brits by country people. They talk a good talk, we fought a good fight. It gets my goat, that's all.

1971.

kmick

kmick wrote: »

Pádraic Pearse Dublin
Thomas MacDonagh Tipperary
Thomas James Clarke Tyrone (via Isle of wight)
Joseph Mary Plunkett Dublin
Edward Daly Limerick
Michael O'Hanrahan Wexford
William Pearse Dublin
John mcBride Westport
Con Colbert Limerick
Eamonn Ceannt Galway
Micheal Mallin Dublin
James Connolly Dublin via Cork via Edinburgh

I know I added this bit late but I am repeating it for emphasis.

Hagar

Those names have already been mentioned.
They have not been forgotten, nor will they be.

That list of 12 people has 4 Dubliners, 6 Country men and 2 Britons.

There are families in the Liberties that sent 6 people to fight.
Naming 6 individuals in a Army of 1600/2000 who fought in Dublin isn't going to sway things much. It's still a tiny proportion.


/Edit this must be the quietest debate this forum has ever seen. Where are all the usual suspects?

boneless

Hagar wrote: »

The Helga did not fire from Dublin Bay. It came up the Liffey as far as it could until blocked by the bridge and simply flattened all the buildings between itself and its target until it could bring fire directly to bear. It made a point of flattening Liberty Hall while it was at it.

Dozens does not describe it, I believe the correct figure for dead was 213 Sherwood Foresters. I'll see if I can find a link to back it up.

Believe it or not, the first ship to be used in the service of the Free State Forces was.... The Helga!! Not sure as to how this occurred. Can anyone here shed some light?

guinnessdrinker

Here is a very good article I found from a Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment memorial site that tells the story of the Sherwood Foresters and the Mount Street bridge battle.

The article suggests that:

By late in the day, when the Dublin Military Garrison provided them with a Lewis gun and with handgrenades, they had already lost some 230 men in dead and wounded

Excellent read, the author suggests at the end of the article that the Forresters killed in Dublin during the Rising are not remembered in the same way as other members of the regiment that were killed during WWI.

Erin Go Brath

Hagar wrote: »

That's a rather harsh intrepretation. I'm just saying Dublin largely stood alone against the British and yet we live under the constant insult of being branded West Brits by country people. They talk a good talk, we fought a good fight. It gets my goat, that's all.

1971.

Hagar thats a load of balls. Everyone knows it was the mighty men of Munster who got rid of dem brits. Sure look at all the street names in parts of Dublin, Oxford road this, and Shrewsbury road that, bloody hell more English than the English themselves them lot. :eek:

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Hagar thats a load of balls. Everyone knows it was the mighty men of Munster who got rid of dem brits. Sure look at all the street names in parts of Dublin, Oxford road this, and Shrewsbury road that, bloody hell more English than the English themselves them lot. :eek:

tell me, how's the English market in Cork doing these days? still as popular:D

McArmalite

Hagar wrote: »

I know communications 100 years ago were not what they are today but phones worked. I very much doubt that cutting telegraph cables in the GPO completely isolated Dublin from the rest of the country. I'm fairly sure that the Volunteer movement would have had an independent communications network in place after all they were planning a nationwide rising. Irish men and women worked in every phone exchange up and down the country and I seriously doubt that the Volunteers hadn't infiltrated their own personnel into key positions. It was the sort of thing that they were good at. Some country locations rose out, others knew of the Rising but seemed to shy away and adopted a wait and see policy so there was a definite awareness of the Rising nationwide.

Some posters have made the point that the British baulked at attacking large forces of Volunteers, ie Cork so why didn't the Volunteers take them on? The British clearly had no stomach for an even fight and could have been beaten in local engagements. A rising in Cork on the scale of the one in Dublin would have made serious problems for the British. Throw in a few more like the stand made in Wexford and the flying column type engagements in Galway and we would have had a whole new ballgame. There were enough Volunteers across the country to make it impossible for the British to travel safely from town to town.

The fact remains that there were only a handful of casualties inflicted on the British outside Dublin. I think the reality of the Dubliners getting shot and shelled was too much for some people so they didn't commit to the battle. In my mind it casts a doubt on the resolve and staunchness of some of the people involved.

I can never again accuse the Apprentice Boys of living on past glories, 1688 having learned that Cork is the Rebel County based on an incident in 1485.


AFAIK James Connolly was born in Glasgow, DeValera was born in New York, it was his US citizenship that saved him from execution apparently.

James Connolly was born in the Irish slum district of Cowgate in Edinburgh.

machiavellianme

kmick wrote: »

What we do know...
The rising happened in Dublin and was not supported countrywide.
Countrywide the order had been to stand down.

The rising started in a bog in Laois between Abbeyleix and Portlaoise, just outside Clonad. A monument was erected to say the first shots were fired there as Volunteers dismantled the railway line to prevent British reinforcements from accessing Dublin from the south. I guess they either never received that order or felt they should lead by example. Either way, it was probably over in ten minutes

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote: »

tell me, how's the English market in Cork doing these days? still as popular:D

Dont know i'm from Limerick. The boys in West Cork gave ye lot some hiding during the War of Independence though.

McArmalite

kreuzberger wrote: »

This is untrue . I cant believe you left out the primary reason why the rest of the country did not mobilise , in that the leader of the Irish volunteers , a dubliner , expressly ordered the rest of the country not to mobilise .

Eoin Mac Neills last minute countermanding order had left the volunteers in utter disarray throughout the country . 1000s of volunteers had prepared to mobilise all over Ireland and at the last minute were left in utter confusion . Instead of the administration being paralysed as the rebels had hoped the volunteers themselves were paralysed as a result of MacNeills cowardice and perhaps even deliberate treachery . It took days for news to filter out there was a definite rebellion in Dublin by which stage many volunteers had simply gone home unsure of what was happening and what to do........ . Add into the equation had the planned manding of 20, 000 rifles along with heavy machine guns took place successfullyand the British would have been in even deeper trouble . Once the British were bogged own in this type of scenario theres little doubt more substantial German assistance would have been committed to the enterprise and any notion of continuing British rule along with the notion of deliberate "blood sacrifice" would have disappeared without trace during 1916 .

My grandfather always blamed McNeills countermanding order fo the men in the country not rising, though he also said that the weapons that were to be landed by the Germans not getting through was also a big factor as many of the country units were not as well armed as Dublin. Still, it didn't stop the british from interning my grandfather and several other 'usual suspects' from the town in the weeks and months afterwards. He was only 17 I think.

BTW, what was the reaction of the brave men of unionism to the rising ? I know that many of the unioinsts in Trinity turned out and joined the british, but the tough guys from Ulster, very quite weren't they ?

randylonghorn

Hagar wrote: »

I know communications 100 years ago were not what they are today but phones worked. I very much doubt that cutting telegraph cables in the GPO completely isolated Dublin from the rest of the country. I'm fairly sure that the Volunteer movement would have had an independent communications network in place after all they were planning a nationwide rising. Irish men and women worked in every phone exchange up and down the country and I seriously doubt that the Volunteers hadn't infiltrated their own personnel into key positions. It was the sort of thing that they were good at. Some country locations rose out, others knew of the Rising but seemed to shy away and adopted a wait and see policy so there was a definite awareness of the Rising nationwide.

Again, Hagar, I have to stress: the leaders of '16 did not hold the legitimate chain of command of the Volunteers. Pearse was senior enough to start the ball rolling: he and Clarke etc. presumed that if it had gathered enough speed MacNeill, Hobson, FitzGibbon, the O'Rahilly, etc. would bow to the inevitable and row in behind.

That didn't happen, especially in MacNeill and Hobson's case. The order to stand down came from Macneill, and agree with his decision or not, he was the legitimate GOC.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I know you of all people know the answer to this one ...

randylonghorn wrote: »

It was a poor turnout because they were ordered to stand down. What do well-trained military types do when ordered to cancel an operation, Hagar?

I would also suggest that by the time the Rising actually started, Clarke knew damn well military victory was not possible, and he was far more the military strategist than Pearse, who was an idealistic dreamer ... a courageous and in many ways an admirable one, but not a strategist or a realist. In fact, accounts indicate that Pearse took little part in directing the course of the battle, despite being the recognised Commander, spending a lot of time with the sick Plunkett discussing ideological and philosophical issues. I would suggest that in those circumstances, holed up in the GPO and elsewhere, believing that they were engaged in a realistically fruitless yet symbolically powerful endeavour, they may not even have tried that hard to get messages out to the rouse the rest of the country and gainsay MacNeill after the Rising had actually commenced.

Hagar wrote: »

That's a rather harsh intrepretation.

I agree.

Hagar wrote: »

... and yet we live under the constant insult of being branded West Brits by country people.

In fairness, I think a lot of the time that's about as serious as the "culchie" tag. Certainly, while I have met a few Dublin people who might deserve that tag, it's not one I would ever seriously apply to the vast majority of Dublin people. As I said in the other thread, these days it's probably more accurate to call all Irish people "Eastern Americans" given the amount of US pseudo-culture we seem to have swallowed lock stock and barrel!

Hagar wrote: »

... They talk a good talk, we fought a good fight. It gets my goat, that's all.

Apart from whether we ever fully agree on the specific incident under discussion, Hagar, I think the "did Dublin bear the brunt of resistance, and did the rest of the country betray us?" question is a lot wider than one week in 1916. One could widen it out to centuries, though tbh I wouldn't want to do so ... I think all that would be achieved would be to start a Dublin vs. the rest of the country argument which might actually get a bit more serious than the usual pishtake.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Sure look at all the street names in parts of Dublin, Oxford road this, and Shrewsbury road that, bloody hell more English than the English themselves them lot. :eek:

Lol, I know you're messing, but street names?! Yeah, right!

McArmalite wrote: »

James Connolly was born in the Irish slum district of Cowgate in Edinburgh.

Actually, that rings a bell ...

Red Hand

randylonghorn wrote: »

They were actually very mixed, Jer, though I don't have detailed figures to hand either.

I'm inclined to agree with Hagar that it really isn't the point he's targetting, but for interest sake, birthplace at least of the leaders:

Fair enough, but on the first page, Hagar challenges Corkonians (not that I'm one!) to give reasons why Cork didn't rise given that it was the Rebel County. I'd taken from that that Corkonians were to explain why Corkonians didn't rise....but its a moot point.

However, I remember reading something about how Cork was high up in terms of the number of "disturbances"-killings, shootings, burnings etc-during the war of independence. I remember seeing a map showing how active each county was and Cork was probably the leader.

Hagar

randylonghorn wrote: »

Again, Hagar, I have to stress: the leaders of '16 did not hold the legitimate chain of command of the Volunteers. Pearse was senior enough to start the ball rolling: he and Clarke etc. presumed that if it had gathered enough speed MacNeill, Hobson, FitzGibbon, the O'Rahilly, etc. would bow to the inevitable and row in behind.

That didn't happen, especially in MacNeill and Hobson's case. The order to stand down came from Macneill, and agree with his decision or not, he was the legitimate GOC.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I know you of all people know the answer to this one ...

You are 100% correct regarding the chain of command

Eoin MacNeill - Born Antrim - Not a Dub
Bulmer Honson - Born Belfast - Not a Dub
Sean Fitzgibbon - Born Limerick ? - Not a Dub
The O'Rahilly - Born in Kerry - Not a Dub

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree. In fairness, I think a lot of the time that's about as serious as the "culchie" tag. Certainly, while I have met a few Dublin people who might deserve that tag, it's not one I would ever seriously apply to the vast majority of Dublin people. As I said in the other thread, these days it's probably more accurate to call all Irish people "Eastern Americans" given the amount of US pseudo-culture we seem to have swallowed lock stock and barrel!Apart from whether we ever fully agree on the specific incident under discussion, Hagar, I think the "did Dublin bear the brunt of resistance, and did the rest of the country betray us?" question is a lot wider than one week in 1916. One could widen it out to centuries, though tbh I wouldn't want o do so ... I think all that would be achieved would be to start a Dublin vs. the rest of the country argument which might actually get a bit more serious than the usual pishtake.

Oh all right then.

I don't want to start a rift between Dubs and Country folk. There's enough splits in this country already. But a good debate gets the blood going all the same.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Lol, I know you're messing, but street names?! Yeah, right!

What about Sheep Street in Limerick?

randylonghorn wrote: »

Actually, that rings a bell ...

I believe Edinburgh is correct, I work mostly from memory and it ain't what it used to be.

randylonghorn

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Fair enough, but on the first page, Hagar challenges Corkonians (not that I'm one!) to give reasons why Cork didn't rise given that it was the Rebel County. I'd taken from that that Corkonians were to explain why Corkonians didn't rise....but its a moot point.

My point was more that the proportion of people from other counties involved in Dublin in Easter '16, while certainly relevant, wouldn't really answer the broader question posed. I don't have figures overall (not sure if they exist) but my expectation would be that while the leadership was very mixed, and no doubt the rank and file was mixed as well, I would expect the bulk of the latter to be from Dublin city, followed by Dublin county ... remembering, btw, that the latter would have been as "culchie" then as Carlow or Westmeath are now!

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

However, I remember reading something about how Cork was high up in terms of the number of "disturbances"-killings, shootings, burnings etc-during the war of independence. I remember seeing a map showing how active each county was and Cork was probably the leader.

By a long shot, in fact.

IRA Operations 1919 - 21

Cork - 136
Tipperary - 58
Kerry - 44
Limerick - 33
Clare - 25
Galway - 20
Roscommon - 15
Waterford - 14
Donegal - 11
Mayo - 10

Leinster was in general fairly quiet, with Wexford, Kilkenny and Meath at 8 each leading the pack.

(after Townshend: Ireland: the 20th Century p.95)

Hagar

randylonghorn wrote: »

followed by Dublin county ... remembering, btw, that the latter would have been as "culchie" then as Carlow or Westmeath are now!

They still are if you are from the Liberties.

Was the Eastern half of the country garrisoned more heavily?
I note little activity in the soon to be Six Counties.

randylonghorn

Hagar wrote: »

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

Go back and see if you can find some others!

In fairness to the O'Rahilly, despite being angry at being blindsided and convinced that the rebellion was premature and destined to fail, and having done a whirlwind tour of Cork, Kerry, Limerick and Tipp by car to ensure that MacNeill's orders were delivered and enforced, when he arrived back in Dublin to find it was all kicking off anyway, he presented himself for duty at the GPO.

He conducted himself bravely, by all accounts, and was killed by British machine-gun fire while leading a recce patrol on the Friday seeking an escape route for the Volunteers from the GPO, which was by then on fire.

Hagar wrote: »

What about Sheep Street in Limerick?

I was very disappointed with it, not a sheep in sight!

randylonghorn

Hagar wrote: »

Was the Eastern half of the country garrisoned more heavily?

Hmmm ... valid question, but without going searching for figures I wouldn't have that sense ... if anything, the southern counties would have been seen as inherently lawless and thus more carefully watched.

Hagar wrote: »

I note little activity in the soon to be Six Counties.

In fairness, I meant to note that the particular data I pulled out was based on figures from the Bureau of Military History, and did not show figures for the 6 counties, as the matching records were not in their archives. My memory however was that that area was relatively quiet as well.

I should also note that Dublin city and county were not included for some reason (not sure why?) and there were obviously operations in Dublin, the most well-known probably being the Custom House.