1916 - Did only Dublin Rise?

Hagar

Inspired by an AH thread.

The proposition is that in 1916 only Dublin made any real attempt at a rebellion, the rest of the country made very little effort or just sat back to see how Dublin got on before committing to the Rising.

I put forward that the garrison of less than a dozen men in Clanwilliam House killed more British soldiers ( 213 Sherwood Foresters if memory serves) than the rest of the country managed with their combined effort. I say the country let Dublin down when push came to shove. The country folk squandered a chance to divide the British Forces, instead they allowed country garrisons to be called back to Dublin to quell the Rising when they should have been fighting for their lives against Insurgents in barracks scattered around the country.

What say you?

Pathfinder

Hagar wrote: »

Inspired by an AH thread.

The proposition is that in 1916 only Dublin made any real attempt at a rebellion, the rest of the country made very little effort or just sat back to see how Dublin got on before committing to the Rising.

I put forward that the garrison of less than a dozen men in Clanwilliam House killed more British soldiers ( 213 Sherwood Foresters if memory serves) than the rest of the country managed with their combined effort. I say the country let Dublin down when push came to shove. The country folk squandered a chance to divide the British Forces, instead they allowed country garrisons to be called back to Dublin to quell the Rising when they should have been fighting for their lives against Insurgents in barracks scattered around the country.

What say you?

I believe the number involved in the Easter rising was 200 + rather then a dozen.


Most British casulties were caused by their own artillery.


So inaccurate was much of the fire that British units, believing that they were being shelled by rebel guns--of which the insurgents had none--returned fire against their own artillery. Interestingly the Helga's guns had to stop firing as the elevation necessary to fire over the railway bridge meant that her shells were endangering the Viceregal Lodge in Phoenix Park,



wiki

Organised by the Irish Republican Brotherhood, the Rising lasted from Easter Monday April 24 to April 30, 1916. Members of the Irish Volunteers, led by school teacher and barrister Patrick Pearse, joined by the smaller Irish Citizen Army of James Connolly, along with 200 members of Cumann na mBan seized key locations in Dublin and proclaimed an Irish Republic independent of Britain. There were some actions in other parts of Ireland but, except at Ashbourne, County Meath, they were minor.

GAAman

Hagar wrote: »

Did only Dublin Rise

Damn right, and this is why hill 16 *IS* Dublin only :D

Hagar

Pathfinder wrote: »

I believe the number involved in the Easter rising was 200 + rather then a dozen.

You have misread my post. There were only 7 men in Clanwilliam House Link. I said a dozen to include a nearby detachment of volunteers at 25 Northumberland Rd. Claims that many British soldiers were killed by their own artillery were easier to swallow than Paddy kicking seven shades of shyness out of them.

Here's a link from a British historical site.

TerrorFirmer

In other parts of the country then generally dispersed without doing much. In Galway for example, they dispersed believing significant British reinforcements to be on the way, when in fact they weren't.

I believe the number involved in the Easter rising was 200 + rather then a dozen.

He was talking generally about when the British tried to move up Mount street in the face of crossfire and were more or less massacred by about 20 volunteers.

Ken McCarthy

The Kent family in Castlelyons did attempt to take part in the rising and indeed they resisted arrest in its immediate aftermath. Thomas Kent was later sentenced to death and executed by firing squad, together with Roger Casement they were the only people executed outside of Dublin for their role in the events of Easter Week 1916.

Wikipedia Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kent

The train station in Cork is named in his honour and he also has a local pipe band named after him.

Regards

Ken

Hagar

Thanks Ken, good post, I knew of the Kent family participation.
The debate is in no way intended to denigrate their sacrifice.

I think in general the Cork claim to be the Rebel County is a fantasy.
Corkmen, I challenge you now, step forward and be counted or forever hold your peace.

Pathfinder

Hagar wrote: »

You have misread my post. There were only 7 men in Clanwilliam House Link. I said a dozen to include a nearby detachment of volunteers at 25 Northumberland Rd. Claims that many British soldiers were killed by their own artillery were easier to swallow than Paddy kicking seven shades of shyness out of them.

Here's a link from a British historical site.

Semms odd that the 2nd and 7th Robin Hoods who in 1915 had seen heavy fighting in the trenches, one year on were so inept they were not even trained in basic skill at arms, which the article claims.

Ste.phen

The wikipedia article on the unit seems to back up the claim that they were inexperienced:

In 1916, the 178 (Forester) Brigade although only partially trained, was despatched to Dublin to suppress the Easter rebellion. This operation was completed successfully although at some cost in casualties, especially to the 2/7th (Robin Hoods) and 2/8th Battalions. The Brigade was ordered to frontally assault a rebel held position on the Grand Canal in Dublin and took over 240 casualties from concentrated rifle fire.

Though of course, such is the nature of wikipedia that it may be from the same author as the other post.

guinnessdrinker

True enough, you can normally never rely on what's written in Wikipedia to back up an argument.

Hagar

Pathfinder wrote: »

Semms odd that the 2nd and 7th Robin Hoods who in 1915 had seen heavy fighting in the trenches, one year on were so inept they were not even trained in basic skill at arms, which the article claims.

Trench warfare is not street warfare, the British knew trench warfare we had to teach them street warfare. They never even said thanks.:D

KerranJast

Wasn't there a cock up in the timing of the Rising? I recall being taught in History class that the rest of the country wasn't expecting it to go ahead on Easter Monday. Must go check that.

Edit: Yeah it was originally supposed to be on Easter Sunday but the sinking of the Aud caused the leadership to cancel it. They then decided to go ahead with Easter Monday which was too short notice to get word around the country.

guinnessdrinker

Hagar wrote: »

Trench warfare is not street warfare, the British knew trench warfare we had to teach them street warfare. They never even said thanks.:D

This is true. The British troops were indeed trained in trench warefare. When it came to the Mount Street Bridge battle the Sherwood Foresters reacted to the sounds of a whistle and made frontal charges towards the Volunteers positions instead of taking flanking manouvers.

Some of those Sherwood Foresters had never even fired a rifle before then and were not thought of too highly by some of thier own officers.

randylonghorn

Hagar wrote: »

The proposition is that in 1916 only Dublin made any real attempt at a rebellion, the rest of the country made very little effort or just sat back to see how Dublin got on before committing to the Rising.

Dublin did not rise in 1916. The Rising was centred in Dublin, but it was not a rising of Dublin or by Dublin. It was a gesture, symbolic and intended to be inspirational; in Dublin, initially, at least, it met with far more ridicule and resistance from the ordinary people of the city than support.

Even from the beginning, a military victory was never seen as a possibility.

Many of the targets chosen were more symbolic than strategic: for example, St. Stephen’s Green was occupied … poorly armed personnel occupying open parkland surrounded on four sides by tall buildings, presenting the British with an easy task once they got there. In fact, the first relatively bloodless skirmishes on the Green occurred before any British troops arrived: Michael Mallin and “Countess” Markiewicz and their detachment of the Irish Citizen Army had some difficulty in dislodging the disgruntled citizenry of Dublin from their Easter Monday holiday sun-bathing, and there were no cheers but many jeers to greet the heroes of the new republic. The volatile and shrill Markiewicz no doubt made many new friends that morning …

The GPO was equally a symbolic target … and when Pearse stepped forth to proclaim the republic, the ordinary Dubliner laughed and walked on, as we might at some street character shouting at us about a new cult, or, perhaps a better analogy, the secession of Connaught from the rest of the state. And in fairness, why should they not? They did not know what it was about; the First World War was occupying the headlines; much of Ireland’s manhood was fighting in France under Redmond’s urging; a measure of Home Rule had been vaguely promised in return; the British were still very much in control, however … and here was this somewhat dramatic and ascetic schoolmaster, backed up by a rag-tag band of ill-armed men and women, including many of his past pupils and indeed his current pupils, declaring the independence of Ireland. Shure, will ya g'wan oura that, yizzer having us on!

But they were serious, heavens help them! Not a serious threat, perhaps, but seriously idealistic and seriously determined to fight, if necessary to die, and above all to make the futile grand gesture. That they had little hope of any real gains by that stage, and had chosen symbolism over strategy, is perhaps most strongly evidenced by the failure to press home the attack on Dublin Castle, despite its being very poorly guarded. Their main, perhaps only, legitimate military target, if they had held the Castle they would have been in a much stronger position, if only to bargain with the hostages they would have held.

Why so little hope of success? Well, it can be suspected that the leadership never held much hope of outright victory at any time, but two factors ensured that the Rising was reduced to symbolism before it began. The capture of Casement and the Aud meant that the looked for arms were not forthcoming. The original plan had been to hold Dublin until the countryside could rise in support, and be armed. There were now no additional arms, and worse, the Volunteers had been ordered to stand down by MacNeill, their legitimate Chief of Staff.

Clarke, Pearse and their cadre had for a long time outsmarted MacNeill and the other leaders of the Volunteers. When the Volunteers had split, the IRB had almost to a man predictably gone against Redmond, and into the smaller breakaway Irish Volunteers, which they had quietly taken control of … or so they thought. But in actuality Clarke and his friends had not only blindsided the leadership of the Volunteers, the Supreme Council of the IRB were equally in the dark. The “Military Council” did not report to the Supreme Council, or rather reported only what they wanted them to know / believe. That they had evaded the problem of informers for once in the history of Irish rebellion is evidenced by the fact that the Castle were unworried, convinced that Casement was the real leader of any possible rebellion, and lulled by his capture. But the certainty that MacNeill and the other official leaders would fall into line when presented with a fait accompli was far too optimistic. MacNeill issued orders as Chief of Staff countermanding the orders for “manoeuvres” which Pearse had issued as Director of Organisation for the Volunteers:

Volunteers completely deceived. All orders for special action are hereby cancelled, and on no account will action be taken.

This was circulated by messenger to field officers around the country, and published in the newspapers on Easter Monday. For the bulk of the Volunteers, unaware of the subterfuge which had been employed to issue their original orders, there was much confusion: but they had been ordered to stand down by their legitimate Chief of Staff, and that is what most of them did. Those who still followed the original orders were those who were in the know as to the plans of the inner circle within Council within the IRB within the Volunteers. To a great extent, the country stood down. They followed orders, as they had been trained to do.

Mellowes in Galway, MacEntee in Louth, Tomás Aghas and Richard Mulcahy in Ashbourne, MacCurtain in Cork; Wexford, Belfast /Tyrone in the north … brave but confused, poorly armed and hopeless attempts to stand fast with their comrades in Dublin. Galway did well, considering half the 600 or so there were still armed with pikes!! Ashbourne in many ways was the most significant, given that the tactics followed there would survive and be used successfully in the War of Independence.

I genuinely believe Pearse and the leadership knew it was hopeless. It was to be a gesture, a “blood sacrifice” as Hobson later reported Pearse describing it. And it would work … or rather, the British reaction would make it work. Pearse had prefigured his own epitaph and those of the other executed leaders in his speech over O’Donovan Rossa:

Life springs from death; and from the graves of patriot men and women spring nations. … They think they have pacified Ireland. They think they have pacified half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have provided against everything; but the fools, the fools, the fools! – they have left us our fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace.

Dublin didn’t rise at Easter 1916, Hagar. Dublin laughed, and then they stayed to hell in off the streets. And they showed good sense, in any kind of rational world. Only a small band of men, women and even children came out, some were not even from Dublin and many of their leaders were not.

Around the rest of the country, bedevilled by lack of arms, countermanded orders, confusion and even by good military discipline, even fewer stepped out. And they fared no better.

And yet, because rationality and logic will always fail against human factors: the courage of those foolish few, and the anger and emotion that grew at their treatment, something happened, something changed …

All changed, changed utterly; a terrible beauty is born.

Dublin didn’t rise at Easter 1916, Hagar. Dublin rose AFTER Easter 1916, and the rest of the country rose with it … not physically, but morally and emotionally and spiritually … and therein lie some, at least, of the seeds of the next 5 years, and of the century since.

guinnessdrinker

Randylonghorn, excellent well written and thought out post. Makes a refreshing change from seeing posts copy and pasted on here from Wikipedia.

randylonghorn wrote: »

The GPO was equally a symbolic target … and when Pearse stepped forth to proclaim the republic, the ordinary Dubliner laughed and walked on, as we might at some street character shouting at us about a new cult, or, perhaps a better analogy, the secession of Connaught from the rest of the state. And in fairness, why should they not?

Just on this point, there was briefly a Republic of Connaught in 1798 and it even had it's own president, although the news probably never got as far as Dublin at the time!

randylonghorn wrote: »

Mellowes in Galway, MacEntee in Louth, Tomás Aghas and Richard Mulcahy in Ashbourne, MacCurtain in Cork; Wexford, Belfast /Tyrone in the north … brave but confused, poorly armed and hopeless attempts to stand fast with their comrades in Dublin. Galway did well, considering half the 600 or so there were still armed with pikes!!

These were the most widely known gatherings of Volunteers outside of Dublin but they were other smaller ones which were not reported in the press at the time, I know of one in County Sligo, in which they were to take an RIC barracks but again due to lack of clear orders they did not take any action.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Ashbourne in many ways was the most significant, given that the tactics followed there would survive and be used successfully in the War of Independence.

Thomas Ashe, before the battle for the RIC barracks walked up to the door of he barracks and actually had the courtesy to give the Police the chance to surrender! Of course they refused. But you are correct in that the tactics used by the Volunteers in that action were repeated throughout the War of Independance. In fact these tactics were used again three decades later by the IRA during the border campaign of 1956 - 1962.

JMSE

Hagar wrote: »

I say the country let Dublin down when push came to shove. The country folk squandered a chance to divide the British Forces, instead they allowed country garrisons to be called back to Dublin to quell the Rising when they should have been fighting for their lives against Insurgents in barracks scattered around the country.

A chance was squandered. I dont think Dublin people should feel they were let down though. Didnt half of Dublin head out of the capital ON EASTER MONDAY to see the grand national at Fairyhouse?? Communication was pure grapevine, in a time when false rumours must have led to lots of poor decisions.
Wasnt it a last minute decision to go when they did, so the Dubs had the element of surprise and as word spread out, the Brits were on their toes.

randylonghorn

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Just on this point, there was briefly a Republic of Connaught in 1798 and it even had it's own president, although the news probably never got as far as Dublin at the time!

Aye, I had forgotten that!

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

These were the most widely known gatherings of Volunteers outside of Dublin but they were other smaller ones which were not reported in the press at the time, I know of one in County Sligo, in which they were to take an RIC barracks but again due to lack of clear orders they did not take any action.

And I'm fairly sure there were rumblings in N Longford or Cavan as well ... I didn't try to cover everywhere as my memory for military detail is sketchy, that's where Hagar has the advantage of me!

Given the amount of confusion which ensued, I'm sure there were plenty of other groups met up, argued, disbanded ...

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Thomas Ashe, before the battle for the RIC barracks walked up to the door of he barracks and actually had the courtesy to give the Police the chance to surrender!

Yep, a good courteous West Kerryman!

Hagar

randylonghorn wrote: »

Aye, I had forgotten that!

And I'm fairly sure there were rumblings in N Longford or Cavan as well ... I didn't try to cover everywhere as my memory for military detail is sketchy, that's where Hagar has the advantage of me!

Given the amount of confusion which ensued, I'm sure there were plenty of other groups met up, argued, disbanded ...

Yep, a good courteous West Kerryman!

Fair play, you're putting forward some good arguments. But aside from Thomas Ashe and his comrades it was a poor turnout.

Sure many Dubs laughed at Pearse but is that an implication that all Dubs did or indeed that all non-Dubs didn't? I don't think so, I'm sure there were idiots in flat caps then who would be in baseball caps now but we all know they are not the Dubs we are talking about. I'm damn sure a lot of country folk ridiculed the rising too. Status quo will always be important to many people.

Red Hand

Hagar, do you have any figures for how many of the Dublin Rising were actually Dubliners? What if a majority of Dublin rebels were from outside the Pale? Mick Collins from Cork, Dev from Clare etc...

Then you'd get the prospect of an All Ireland Rising happening in Dublin?:)

LostinBlanch

Well my favourite story is about the Norwegian sailors who were in the GPO when it all kicked off. They asked what was going on, and when it was explained to them they sympathised as Norway had only got independence from Sweden in the previous decade IIRC [Edit: 1905]. They joined in with the rebels.

Then a couple of hours later they said they had to go back to their ship as the tide was turning so a truce was arranged with the Brits to let them get back to their ship.

I think I may have read this in Tim Pat Coogan's book 1916. Which I'd recommend for anyone interested in this subject.

Incidentally the Sherwood Forresters acted brutally in the aftermath of the rising getting themselves a reputation in Dublin as bad as the Tans ever did. Oh and to the poster that didn't believe the majority of them were inexperienced and stated that they suffered heavy losses in the somme. Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would have to get (inexperienced) replacements to replace those lost?

Hagar

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Hagar, do you have any figures for how many of the Dublin Rising were actually Dubliners? What if a majority of Dublin rebels were from outside the Pale? Mick Collins from Cork, Dev from Clare etc...

Then you'd get the prospect of an All Ireland Rising happening in Dublin?:)

No Immediate figures to hand.

The point is that the rising was not geographically spread to cause maximum effect.
It could be argued that Dubliners living in Cork or elsewhere would have fought shoulder to shoulder with Corkmen had Cork risen at the time, just as countrymen fought with Dubliners in Dublin. But it's a moot point as the country didn't rise when it was needed.

randylonghorn

Hagar wrote: »

Fair play, you're putting forward some good arguments. But aside from Thomas Ashe and his comrades it was a poor turnout.

It was a poor turnout because they were ordered to stand down. What do well-trained military types do when ordered to cancel an operation, Hagar?

Hagar wrote: »

Sure many Dubs laughed at Pearse but is that an implication that all Dubs did or indeed that all non-Dubs didn't? I don't think so, I'm sure there were idiots in flat caps then who would be in baseball caps now but we all know they are not the Dubs we are talking about.

Please note that I'm not ridiculing the Dubs in any way for thinking the whole thing was looney tunes.

Picture the scene, if you will ... Dublin was accustomed enough to the Volunteers drilling, and indeed “manoeuvres” had in fact been announced for that day. Now, however, there's a rag-tag of guys in uniform, poorly armed (he had school-children with him, for heaven's sake!) chasing people out of the GPO, and then Pearse comes out and with great ceremony starts reading the Proclamation of the Republic. I honestly can't remember if he read it in English as well as Irish, and I cba checking at this hour. Given that Pearse and the lads from St. Enda's were well known for putting on large open-air tableaux and playlets with themes from irish legend and Ossianic literature (Elaine Sisson's Pearse's Patriot's is exceptionally detailed on these) I'm sure some of them thought this was one of those staged in conjunction with the Volunteers!

And Markiewicz in Stephen's Green, shrill and posturing and shouting as she was wont to be ... a bloodthirsty woman, and very "brave", until she faced the court and sobbed and pleaded for her own life! Hardly the ideal person to have led that detachment.

Hagar wrote: »

I'm damn sure a lot of country folk ridiculed the rising too. Status quo will always be important to many people.

I'm sure you're right, and not just those who sought the status quo. Much progress had been made, most people (city or country) thought Home Rule was a foregone conclusion as soon as WW1 ended, and the majority of support was behind Redmond.

Armed rebellion was not at the top of most peoples agenda, wherever they lived. They didn't think it was necessary.

Most of the Land Acts were done and dusted. The civil service, the local authorities, etc. had been opened up to Catholics. Catholics had risen to positions of influence all round the place, and I don't just mean "Castle Catholics", though no doubt Pearse and Clarke would have seen them as such. (Laurence McBride The Greening of Dublin Castle is good on this, and Virginia Crossman has documented the progress in local government, etc.)

To many people, the battle was being won by attrition: what the hell were these guys doing?!

Yes, I suspect many people, both town and country mice, thought they were mad.

kreuzberger

Hagar wrote: »

Inspired by an AH thread.

The proposition is that in 1916 only Dublin made any real attempt at a rebellion, the rest of the country made very little effort or just sat back to see how Dublin got on before committing to the Rising.

I put forward that the garrison of less than a dozen men in Clanwilliam House killed more British soldiers ( 213 Sherwood Foresters if memory serves) than the rest of the country managed with their combined effort. I say the country let Dublin down when push came to shove. The country folk squandered a chance to divide the British Forces, instead they allowed country garrisons to be called back to Dublin to quell the Rising when they should have been fighting for their lives against Insurgents in barracks scattered around the country.

What say you?

This is untrue . I cant believe you left out the primary reason why the rest of the country did not mobilise , in that the leader of the Irish volunteers , a dubliner , expressly ordered the rest of the country not to mobilise .

Eoin Mac Neills last minute countermanding order had left the volunteers in utter disarray throughout the country . 1000s of volunteers had prepared to mobilise all over Ireland and at the last minute were left in utter confusion . Instead of the administration being paralysed as the rebels had hoped the volunteers themselves were paralysed as a result of MacNeills cowardice and perhaps even deliberate treachery . It took days for news to filter out there was a definite rebellion in Dublin by which stage many volunteers had simply gone home unsure of what was happening and what to do . The rebels in the GPO had severed the cabe through which telegraph communication was routed .

But actions took place elsewhere . In Cork the volunteers belatedly mobilised as a result of Mac Neills actions but unsure of what was actually happening , as to whether there was an actual rebellion or not and didnt go on the offensive . The late and confused mobilisation resulted in an armed stand off with the British forces who were by that stage very well aware of the rebellion and ready and waiting for action in Cork. Nevertheless the British were reluctant to engage with the sizable Irish force . Eventually the Bishop of Cork intervened and the Volunteers agreed to place their arms in the safe keeping of the Lord Mayor and dispersed on the news of the rebellion having failed . Despite the agreement reached crown forces descended on the home of the Kent family , resulting in a ferocious engagement that led to deaths on both sides and numerous injuries among the British forces .

In Tyrone 100s of volunteers mobilised on the eve of the rebellion but dispersed with the countermanding order confused as to what was happening . By the time they were aware of what was happening crown forces had control of the roads and towns and the rebellion was nearly over , with identical scenes at centres of planned mobilisations throughout the country . In Tipperary volunteers mobilised but were divided and unsure as to what to do . Sean treacy urged immediate action but others were unsure . Eventually one RIC man was shot dead in an attempt to begin a round up of local volunteers by the British but no significant actions took place . In Co Louth a number of volunteers set off for Dublin on their own initiative once they heard a rebellion was definitley in full swing . They got as far as Castlebellingham and ended up in an engagement that left a British officer wounded and an RIC man dead before returning home with no casualties .

Much more significant actions occured in Wexford . Again in complete diarray due to MacNeills orders the rebels had demobilised initially but by the Thursday after news had filtered through they reformed and went into action . Around 600 men under the command of JR Etchingham , Bob Brennan and Seamus Doyle took up a strong position on Vinegar Hill overlooking Enniscorthy and then proceeded to successfully occupy the town . The British , of course aware all week of what had happened sent 1000 troops to engage them but on arrival balked at the numbers and the strong positions they had taken around Vinegar Hill and in Enniscorthy itself . The British did not engage but instead took up positions in the surrounding areas . Shortly afterwards news of the rebels surrender in Dublin reached the British forces however the Volunteers on Vinegar Hill refused to believe it and thought it a trick . Eventually a British officer who was also a Wexford local and knew some of the Volunteers arranged safe passage for a delegation to travel to Dublin and hear the news from Pearse personally . They refused to believe the surrender order until they heard it from the mans own lips .

In Galway 1000 volunteers under the command of Liam Mellowes successfully mobilised late in the week and set off on a virtual rampage through the county . They moved out on horse back , car and pony and trap to various locations from their HQ in Craughwell . They captured a number of RIC staions and occupied small towns as well as engaging crown forces at a number of points causing casualties and capturing arms . When the news of the surrender reached them they successfully dispersed without capture suffering no casualties whatsoever.
They were also shelled by a British warship in much more substantial shelling than occured in Dublin . but in a largely rural area that didnt see much damage to property .

Lastly in North county Dublin a party of around 70 volunteers under Tomas Ashe engaged numerically much superior forces and ended up capturing the whole of Ashbourne and occupying barracks . Large quantities of British arms were captured along with about 20 RIC vehicles . This force again dispersed the day after the surrender was given .

With all the above in mind pople should ask themselves what would have happened had MacNeills last minute stab in the back not occured ? In Dublin and elsewhere the voluntees had proven themselves to be a military force to be reckoned with . Had they acted as one under the original plan the effect on the British forces throughout the country who would have been caught cold would have been catastrophic , initially at least . Add into the equation had the planned manding of 20, 000 rifles along with heavy machine guns took place successfullyand the British would have been in even deeper trouble . Once the British were bogged own in this type of scenario theres little doubt more substantial German assistance would have been committed to the enterprise and any notion of continuing British rule along with the notion of deliberate "blood sacrifice" would have disappeared without trace during 1916 .

It should also be remembered the first rebel casualty was a Belfast man , drwoned during the attempt to land arms in Kerry , which also mobilised but then demobilised due to a treacherous order from Dublin .

But it must be said that Dublin was without doubt the centre of the seperatist section of the volunteers and the heart of the rebellion .

kreuzberger

Pathfinder wrote: »

.

Most British casulties were caused by their own artillery.

rubbish . Im surprised though you havent blamed them on bubonic plague from searching filthy Irish houses full of used tampons

So inaccurate was much of the fire that British units, believing that they were being shelled by rebel guns--of which the insurgents had none--returned fire against their own artillery.

really ? British soldiers were firing their rifles from OConnell street the whole fecking way out to Dublin bay at a target they couldnt even see ?

Interestingly the Helga's guns had to stop firing as the elevation necessary to fire over the railway bridge meant that her shells were endangering the Viceregal Lodge in Phoenix Park,

Nelsons column gave them a precise range and firing point from any popint in the city , OConnell street was methodically and accurately flattened . As was Liberty Hall .

randylonghorn

kreuzberger wrote: »

Eoin Mac Neills last minute countermanding order had left the volunteers in utter disarray throughout the country . 1000s of volunteers had prepared to mobilise all over Ireland and at the last minute were left in utter confusion . Instead of the administration being paralysed as the rebels had hoped the volunteers themselves were paralysed.

I agree with that ^^^

kreuzberger wrote: »

as a result of MacNeills cowardice and perhaps even deliberate treachery.

... but not that.

MacNeill had been kept in the dark, and fooled. He was relatively consistent in his beliefs and opinions. A bad decision, perhaps. Treachery, no. If anything, he had reason to feel betrayed.

kreuzberger

randylonghorn wrote: »

And Markiewicz in Stephen's Green, shrill and posturing and shouting as she was wont to be ... a bloodthirsty woman, and very "brave", until she faced the court and sobbed and pleaded for her own life! Hardly the ideal person to have led that detachment.

rubbish , utter rubbish

I'm sure you're right, and not just those who sought the status quo. Much progress had been made, most people (city or country) thought Home Rule was a foregone conclusion as soon as WW1 ended, and the majority of support was behind Redmond.

Armed rebellion was not at the top of most peoples agenda, wherever they lived. They didn't think it was necessary.

Most of the Land Acts were done and dusted. The civil service, the local authorities, etc. had been opened up to Catholics. Catholics had risen to positions of influence all round the place, and I don't just mean "Castle Catholics", though no doubt Pearse and Clarke would have seen them as such. (Laurence McBride The Greening of Dublin Castle is good on this, and Virginia Crossman has documented the progress in local government, etc.)

you seem to be confusing the manner of British rule with the fact of British rule . The fact natives were collaborating with the occupation does not mean they were in any way close to establishing nationhood , quite the reverse

To many people, the battle was being won by attrition: what the hell were these guys doing?!

Yes, I suspect many people, both town and country mice, thought they were mad

Most Irish people had been out waving little union jacks during the royal state visit and joining the British army in large numbers to fight the empires wars . Most sane people would consider all of the above mad .
A rebellion to put an end to such undignified nonsense and establish a sovereign independent Irish republic was a very sane response to the volunatary servility and collaboartion in the destruction of ones nationhood .

kreuzberger

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree with that ^^^
... but not that.

MacNeill had been kept in the dark, and fooled. He was relatively consistent in his beliefs and opinions. A bad decision, perhaps. Treachery, no. If anything, he had reason to feel betrayed.

Eoin MacNill handed himself into the British on the reasoned basis that any man who didnt get arrested that week would have no future in Irish politics .
He was kept in the dark because the rebellion was none of his business . There was no basis for anyone betraying Eoin MacNeill as nobody owed him any loyalty . Eoin MacNeill was very well aware that the seperatist body within the volunteers favoured rebellion and had done for quite a few years . When they set out to embark upon it he betrayed them and his country .

randylonghorn

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Hagar, do you have any figures for how many of the Dublin Rising were actually Dubliners? What if a majority of Dublin rebels were from outside the Pale? Mick Collins from Cork, Dev from Clare etc...

They were actually very mixed, Jer, though I don't have detailed figures to hand either.

I'm inclined to agree with Hagar that it really isn't the point he's targetting, but for interest sake, birthplace at least of the leaders:

Signatories

Tom Clarke - Isle of wight (Tyrone family)
P Pearse - Dublin
James Connolly - Monaghan (80% sure! )
Plunkett - Dublin
Eamonn Ceannt - Galway
Thomas MacDonagh - Tipp
Sean MacDermott - Leitrim

Other
Ned Daly - Limerick
Markievicz - Sligo (I think, Gore-Booths Sligo family anyway)
DeValera - lots of stories, NY, on ship, etc., but he grew up in Clare anyway.

(Who am I forgetting?)

Outside
Tomás Aghas - Kerry
Richard Mulcahy - Waterford
MacCurtain - Cork
Mellowes - Galway
Casement - b. Dublin, albeit Belfast family
Various Wexford people already mentioned ...

kk, may remember more later

EamonnKeane

Hagar wrote: »

I think in general the Cork claim to be the Rebel County is a fantasy.
Corkmen, I challenge you now, step forward and be counted or forever hold your peace.

The name "Rebel County" has nothing to do with the IRA - it actually refers to Cork's support of Perkin Warbeck in 1495.

randylonghorn wrote: »

rubbish , utter rubbish

Markiewicz was extremely bloodthirsty - she kissed her pistol before she handed it to the Army in surrender. As for "sobbed and pleaded for her own life", that is possible - there are two extremely conflicting accounts of her conduct before the court martial.

kreuzberger

the vast majority of the ordinary working class dublin volunteers and Citizen army men were Dubliners . It was these people the leadership knew they could count upon instinctively well before the rebellion . They were the most eager to rebel . Dublin was the area which most successfully resisted the Redmond / Devlin split in the volunteer movement .

randylonghorn

kreuzberger wrote: »

rubbish , utter rubbish

Really? That's the evidence, kreuzberger, including the testimony of Kathleen Clarke. So ... who do you choose ... Gore-Booth / Markievicz or Clarke?

kreuzberger wrote: »

you seem to be confusing the manner of British rule with the fact of British rule .

I am not at all confused, my friend. I am dealing with real people and the realities of life and how they thought about it, and wrote it down for us to study ... evidence, in fact, not the outdated jingoism of either side.

p.s. Eamonn: you've quoted the wrong person there!