What I hate about Ireland

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kovik wrote: »

...

Have you honestly ever been to another European nation?

Lived in four, been in seven others.

The culture of alcohol is a very broad western phenomenon. I've never seen anyone go on the tear quite so frequently and to quite the same extent as the Germans, with the French coming in a close second. Love both those countries too (especially Germany). When a person claims "there's nothing to do but drink" about a society, I immediately put my skeptical hat on. In my experience, people tend to make such claims when deeply dissatisfied with their own position in life, their country irrespective. Go on boards from any other European nation and you'll find sentiments expressed identical to yours.

Of course it does: it's how OTHER cultures exist alongside the alcohol culture. In Ireland, it's all or nothing. In Germany, there are alternatives to drinking. And Europeans are better at drinkign to scoailise, whereas the Irish drink to get drunk.

Example: two nights ago, we had a barbeque out of the lake and played football until it was too dark. Just off the top of my head. At no point did anyone even suggest going to a pub.

One of the personal things that annoyed me abotu Ireland was the sheer negativity I got when trying to suggest non-drinking activity to friends.

At least here we have a large (perhaps excessive) degree of introspection.

We do? Then how come people are saying "what I hate about Ireland is the moaners" and sentimentsto the point that Ireland should be beyond criticism?

I'm not sure what angle you're coming from, but the society here is utterly bent on improvement and progress.

Bollox! If that is so, how come, following a massive economic boom, public transport is still crap, health services are still wanting and education is sorely underfunded? The only thing Ireland improved was the pockets of the wealthy.

Thus far, we're the only society engaging fully with this recession and its potential worst case scenario and, I'll wager, the only culture dedicating a huge number of column inches in virtually every broadsheet and tabloid to discussing the economic climate.

The ONLY society? You sure no-one else is engaging? The Brits seem to be aware of what's going on (they'll feel it as bad as we do, if not worse)

blow69

Bollox! If that is so, how come, following a massive economic boom, public transport is still crap, health services are still wanting and education is sorely underfunded? The only thing Ireland improved was the pockets of the wealthy.

That is actually too true!

It lasted like a decade and there is surprisingly little to show for it. Yes people are richer but what about services!

Kovik

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Of course it does: it's how OTHER cultures exist alongside the alcohol culture. In Ireland, it's all or nothing. In Germany, there are alternatives to drinking. And Europeans are better at drinkign to scoailise, whereas the Irish drink to get drunk.

Example: two nights ago, we had a barbeque out of the lake and played football until it was too dark. Just off the top of my head. At no point did anyone even suggest going to a pub.

While I don't like squaring off anecdotal evidence, there's no other way to combat weird assertions. I don't drink. Nor does my OH, nor do quite a few of my friends. I just got back from a day at the beach and a meal in the evening and in an hour or so I'll likely head out to a club in town. I'll come home sober.

Your claims suggest a very deranged view of socialising, one that is, for lack of a better term, undemocratic. Nobody compels you to drink and claiming "there's nothing to do except drink" is plainly wrong. If you don't enjoy drinking, don't. If you don't enjoy drunk social scenes, go elsewhere. There's no sense blaming "the society" for where you go and what you do. I live in town and I go out most nights, mainly to literary events, and I do so without any interraction with alcohol or drink culture.

One of the personal things that annoyed me abotu Ireland was the sheer negativity I got when trying to suggest non-drinking activity to friends.

While in Berlin, I got weird looks for not wanting to go on a pub crawl for a third consecutive night. However, I don't infer that all German people want to drink and do nothing else. The culture exists everywhere, I just choose to socialise in other circles. Your suggestion that drink culture is more endemic here is outrightly false. There's certainly a greater awareness and criticism of it here, I'll give you that.

We do? Then how come people are saying "what I hate about Ireland is the moaners" and sentimentsto the point that Ireland should be beyond criticism?

Because there's a difference between people voicing legitimate grievances and people either a) projecting their own social self-dissatisfaction onto nebulous concepts of culture or b) moaning about demonstrably false negative fantasies. Which leads us on to:

Bollox! If that is so, how come, following a massive economic boom, public transport is still crap

We're about 10 years into a massive 30 year infrastructural development plan. If you can't detect the change in transport in the time that's passed already, there's not much hope for you. Dublin is about as congested as most European cities, but it's half as congested as it was in the 1990s and 1980s. Dublin airport is so vastly improved on what it once was it doesn't bear comparison. Transport is in the midst of development, and we're still behind European counterparts, but it's improved astronomically and, critically, continues to improve.

health services are still wanting

Gonna have to trot out the "90% of inpatients and outpatients pleased with service" statistic once more. In 1999, when WHO conducted its rankings of the world's health systems, Ireland ranked 19th, just below the UK and dramatically ahead of Germany and Canada. The last controversial EHCI report (historically disliking of not fully socialised systems) saw Ireland's ranking increase by some 10 places following the massive government investment in the area and HSE reform. The country is also fifth on the UN human development index and first on the economist's quality of life index. There's still huge room for improvement in the health sector (as there is everywhere) primarily in emergency and rural services, but we have it better than most (by a good deal).

and education is sorely underfunded?

Quite plainly, it isn't. There are issues relating to space in primary schools and a difficulty finding secondary teachers. Not particularly disastrous (as most systems in western society face these challenges) and certainly not indicative of neglect.

The only thing Ireland improved was the pockets of the wealthy.

Wrong. Throughout the boom, the rich/poor divide remained exactly the same, suggesting not only a proportionate increase in income of all classes, but one that especially benefited the lower ones (given that wealth generates exponentially among those wealthy enough to invest on a large scale). The boom was primarily a middle class miracle.

The ONLY society? You sure no-one else is engaging? The Brits seem to be aware of what's going on (they'll feel it as bad as we do, if not worse)

The "Brits" have woken up following dramatic rights issues from two of the largest banks in the UK (and Europe) and the collapse of Northern Rock. We get a forecast of 0.4% negative growth for the second half of 2008 leading into a rally in 2009 and freak out to a far greater extent. Our government is dealing with a potential economic crisis, the British government are playing a game of plate spinning.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kovik wrote: »

While I don't like squaring off anecdotal evidence, there's no other way to combat weird assertions. I don't drink. Nor does my OH, nor do quite a few of my friends. I just got back from a day at the beach and a meal in the evening and in an hour or so I'll likely head out to a club in town. I'll come home sober.

Your claims suggest a very deranged view of socialising, one that is, for lack of a better term, undemocratic. Nobody compels you to drink and claiming "there's nothing to do except drink" is plainly wrong. If you don't enjoy drinking, don't. If you don't enjoy drunk social scenes, go elsewhere. There's no sense blaming "the society" for where you go and what you do. I live in town and I go out most nights, mainly to literary events, and I do so without any interraction with alcohol or drink culture.



While in Berlin, I got weird looks for not wanting to go on a pub crawl for a third consecutive night. However, I don't infer that all German people want to drink and do nothing else. The culture exists everywhere, I just choose to socialise in other circles. Your suggestion that drink culture is more endemic here is outrightly false. There's certainly a greater awareness and criticism of it here, I'll give you that.


Because there's a difference between people voicing legitimate grievances and people either a) projecting their own social self-dissatisfaction onto nebulous concepts of culture or b) moaning about demonstrably false negative fantasies. Which leads us on to:


We're about 10 years into a massive 30 year infrastructural development plan. If you can't detect the change in transport in the time that's passed already, there's not much hope for you. Dublin is about as congested as most European cities, but it's half as congested as it was in the 1990s and 1980s. Dublin airport is so vastly improved on what it once was it doesn't bear comparison. Transport is in the midst of development, and we're still behind European counterparts, but it's improved astronomically and, critically, continues to improve.


Gonna have to trot out the "90% of inpatients and outpatients pleased with service" statistic once more. In 1999, when WHO conducted its rankings of the world's health systems, Ireland ranked 19th, just below the UK and dramatically ahead of Germany and Canada. The last controversial EHCI report (historically disliking of not fully socialised systems) saw Ireland's ranking increase by some 10 places following the massive government investment in the area and HSE reform. The country is also fifth on the UN human development index and first on the economist's quality of life index. There's still huge room for improvement in the health sector (as there is everywhere) primarily in emergency and rural services, but we have it better than most (by a good deal).


Quite plainly, it isn't. There are issues relating to space in primary schools and a difficulty finding secondary teachers. Not particularly disastrous (as most systems in western society face these challenges) and certainly not indicative of neglect.


Wrong. Throughout the boom, the rich/poor divide remained exactly the same, suggesting not only a proportionate increase in income of all classes, but one that especially benefited the lower ones (given that wealth generates exponentially among those wealthy enough to invest on a large scale). The boom was primarily a middle class miracle.



The "Brits" have woken up following dramatic rights issues from two of the largest banks in the UK (and Europe) and the collapse of Northern Rock. We get a forecast of 0.4% negative growth for the second half of 2008 leading into a rally in 2009 and freak out to a far greater extent. Our government is dealing with a potential economic crisis, the British government are playing a game of plate spinning.

OK
1) I may have a very "deranged" view of socialising, but it's personal. The goups that I knew, were not interested in going out unless alcohol would, at some point, be involved. Photography group? Where we drinking afterwards. Paintball expidition? Where we drinking afterwards (in which case, no one showed unbtil the "drinking aftewards" bit)

2) Self dissatisfaction of public services is a common theme in this country. I have no 'fantasies' about Ireland, real or false. I came, I saw, I rejected.

3) There is NO WAY Dublin is as congested as most European cities! Not in Germany or Scandanavia or anywhere else with a DECENT public transport system, anwya,

4) If the health service is so good, why are is there so much dissatisfaction within the nurses unions?

5) this 30-year play you're talking about - will it still be "modern" in the year 2038? Or is it simplay a case of wow! - we've got THREE tram lines now! Ain't we the dog's bollocks of Europe?!

Kovik

In my experience, the more vehement the argument, the less merit it contains.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

OK
1) I may have a very "deranged" view of socialising, but it's personal. The goups that I knew, were not interested in going out unless alcohol would, at some point, be involved. Photography group? Where we drinking afterwards. Paintball expidition? Where we drinking afterwards (in which case, no one showed unbtil the "drinking aftewards" bit)

I'm not sure what kind of societies you were involved in to be quite frank. Your experience is utterly contrary to my own and you're characterising your social life here as being populated entirely by 15 year old cheap cider drinkers. If you want to cling to your assertions, be my guest, but a number of years ago I decided to branch out in my socialising, joined a number of societies inside and outside university (including an amateur photography group, come to think of it) and have never suffered this weird "no friends without beer" fantasy.

2) Self dissatisfaction of public services is a common theme in this country. I have no 'fantasies' about Ireland, real or false. I came, I saw, I rejected.

It's common to critique public services everywhere. Sweden, a country with perhaps the highest per capita public expenditure in the western world, can't get enough of it. You've also contradicted yourself here, as this "self dissatisfaction" also ties nicely into my suggestion that there's a high degree of introspection in public life here which you so vehemently rejected. You can have one or the other, not both.

3) There is NO WAY Dublin is as congested as most European cities! Not in Germany or Scandanavia or anywhere else with a DECENT public transport system, anwya,

Ever tried to travel across country in Italy? You'll know when Rush Hour starts because the entire network clogs up. Similarly in Spain, the UK, the Eastern Bloc and a good deal of France. Motorists in Germany do, indeed, face gridlock as well (I can tell you). The rail system helps alleviate transit that would otherwise be unbearable owing to that country's centralisation around certain key cities.

Your point, however, was that transport hasn't improved in spite of our money. It has, and it continues to do so. Look at the massive investments made by the government and the ERDF in road building and air transit development most notably. It's observable At the same time, transport into Dublin has intensified, thus more action is needed (as I'll address later).

4) If the health service is so good, why are is there so much dissatisfaction within the nurses unions?

Not gonna engage with those statistics I quoted at you? Fair enough.

Basic answer: They're a union.

5) this 30-year play you're talking about - will it still be "modern" in the year 2038? Or is it simplay a case of wow! - we've got THREE tram lines now! Ain't we the dog's bollocks of Europe?!

It means the integration of all rail networks in Dublin and the greater Leinster area, the integration and expansion of national rail lines and the modernisation of the old segmented system, the construction of an urban rail line to service Cork and wider Munster, the construction of a subway in Dublin, a massive road building project linking all major urban hubs, the trebling of Bus Éireann buses, the quadrupling of Dublin buses and, yes, a brickload more stand alone tram lines. That's (supposedly) by 2015-2020 or so and that's purely transport, excluding all other areas of infrastructural development. It's not a case of looking snazzy in front of our neighbours, it's a case of providing what the country needs in terms of infrastructure.

Thus far, the reasoning you've presented to me as to your opinion of Irish society has been primarily based on demonstrably false assertions. Rationalising yourself into a negative fantasy of the country is pointless. If you prefer to live elsewhere, more power to you. There's no need to invent reasons to feel correct or superior.

Sir Gallagher

Fair plaed Ikkypoo, i'd actually love to leave here but i just can't due to my family situation at the moment, Kovik i've read you're points and as articulate as they are i cannot relate to them as your bog standard Dubliner, there's just certain things in our society which won't change anytime soon. There's certain good points about our country but lately i've just become so dissatisfied with our culture, we've become a nation of greedy bigots who are quick to quote our history conveniently forgetting certain points of our own past.

Basically,

Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

Haha.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kovik wrote: »

In my experience, the more vehement the argument, the less merit it contains.
I'm not sure what kind of societies you were involved in to be quite frank. Your experience is utterly contrary to my own and you're characterising your social life here as being populated entirely by 15 year old cheap cider drinkers. If you want to cling to your assertions, be my guest, but a number of years ago I decided to branch out in my socialising, joined a number of societies inside and outside university (including an amateur photography group, come to think of it) and have never suffered this weird "no friends without beer" fantasy.


It's common to critique public services everywhere. Sweden, a country with perhaps the highest per capita public expenditure in the western world, can't get enough of it. You've also contradicted yourself here, as this "self dissatisfaction" also ties nicely into my suggestion that there's a high degree of introspection in public life here which you so vehemently rejected. You can have one or the other, not both.


Ever tried to travel across country in Italy? You'll know when Rush Hour starts because the entire network clogs up. Similarly in Spain, the UK, the Eastern Bloc and a good deal of France. Motorists in Germany do, indeed, face gridlock as well (I can tell you). The rail system helps alleviate transit that would otherwise be unbearable owing to that country's centralisation around certain key cities.

Your point, however, was that transport hasn't improved in spite of our money. It has, and it continues to do so. Look at the massive investments made by the government and the ERDF in road building and air transit development most notably. It's observable At the same time, transport into Dublin has intensified, thus more action is needed (as I'll address later).


Not gonna engage with those statistics I quoted at you? Fair enough.

Basic answer: They're a union.


It means the integration of all rail networks in Dublin and the greater Leinster area, the integration and expansion of national rail lines and the modernisation of the old segmented system, the construction of an urban rail line to service Cork and wider Munster, the construction of a subway in Dublin, a massive road building project linking all major urban hubs, the trebling of Bus Éireann buses, the quadrupling of Dublin buses and, yes, a brickload more stand alone tram lines. That's (supposedly) by 2015-2020 or so and that's purely transport, excluding all other areas of infrastructural development. It's not a case of looking snazzy in front of our neighbours, it's a case of providing what the country needs in terms of infrastructure.

Thus far, the reasoning you've presented to me as to your opinion of Irish society has been primarily based on demonstrably false assertions. Rationalising yourself into a negative fantasy of the country is pointless. If you prefer to live elsewhere, more power to you. There's no need to invent reasons to feel correct or superior.

So, effectively, what you've saying is that Dublin has a variety and non-drinking culture and is at the cusp of modernity when it comes to public services...?

Have you ever sat down with foreigners who've lived in Dublin and told them the wonders of our infrastructure.

And nurses go on strike out of severe dissatisfaction, not because they're in a union. Trust me, it's not a dicision they make easily.

Chunky Monkey

Kovik I think you're looking at Ireland through some seriously rose tinted glasses.

Phuckmii

I hate the fact that only 0.75% (I actually worked it out ) of the countries population attend games in the Irish national league.

Best fans in the world! Óle, Óle, Óle....

Papad

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

Scum = anti-social behavior, inept politicians, woefully inadequate health system, criminal sentencing etc.

The problem is the Irish wont get off their arses to do something about it.

Kovik

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So, effectively, what you've saying is that Dublin has a variety and non-drinking culture and is at the cusp of modernity when it comes to public services...?

Absolutely not. Read my post. Yes, I'm saying that Dublin has quite a bit to do without drink involved (I can attest to that personally, as I've already said) and that most public services are satisfactory. That's a far cry from the glowing review you've suggested I've given the place. Your basic contention, however, was that public services have not improved since the boom, and that there's no society outside the drink society, both of which are outrightly incorrect as I've shown.

Have you ever sat down with foreigners who've lived in Dublin and told them the wonders of our infrastructure.

Once again, you've failed to read what I actually wrote. I've never argued that public transport, for example, is world class. Your argument was that it hasn't improved and I've shown that is has and continues to do so. There's no bias in stating fact.

Chunky Monkey wrote:

Kovik I think you're looking at Ireland through some seriously rose tinted glasses.

I think, perhaps, you've miscontrued my position in the same manner as the above poster. Living in Ireland is my preference, certainly, as I've had many opportunies to go abroad for extended periods, even permanently (for college and work), a number of times. However, I've never stated "WE IS BEST @ EVRYTHING," not in the slightest. My argument hasn't been one of "praise everything Irish" but rather to disprove the negative fantasies relating to the place that a lot of people enjoy insisting upon (particularly on boards). My claims have, for the most part, been empirical or observable.

Rather than viewing the country through "rose tinted glasses" I've been arguing against viewing the country through... what ever the oppposite of rose tinted glasses are. The country is fifth highest world wide on per capita GDP, fifth on UN HDI, seventh on per capita PPP, and first on quality of life according to the economist. It's okay to accept that things are pretty decent here. Enormous room for improvement, as always there is, especially given that we're a very young "modern" economy and society. I feel the earlier poster was projecting quite a bit of personal social dissatisfaction onto nebulous "it's the culture here!" claims, which are very suspect, in addition to making claims about economic mismanagement. I've done nothing but refute those claims.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kovik wrote: »

Absolutely not. Read my post. Yes, I'm saying that Dublin has quite a bit to do without drink involved (I can attest to that personally, as I've already said) and that most public services are satisfactory. That's a far cry from the glowing review you've suggested I've given the place. Your basic contention, however, was that public services have not improved since the boom, and that there's no society outside the drink society, both of which are outrightly incorrect as I've shown.


Once again, you've failed to read what I actually wrote. I've never argued that public transport, for example, is world class. Your argument was that it hasn't improved and I've shown that is has and continues to do so. There's no bias in stating fact.


I think, perhaps, you've miscontrued my position in the same manner as the above poster. Living in Ireland is my preference, certainly, as I've had many opportunies to go abroad for extended periods, even permanently (for college and work), a number of times. However, I've never stated "WE IS BEST @ EVRYTHING," not in the slightest. My argument hasn't been one of "praise everything Irish" but rather to disprove the negative fantasies relating to the place that a lot of people enjoy insisting upon (particularly on boards). My claims have, for the most part, been empirical or observable.

Rather than viewing the country through "rose tinted glasses" I've been arguing against viewing the country through... what ever the oppposite of rose tinted glasses are. The country is fifth highest world wide on per capita GDP, fifth on UN HDI, seventh on per capita PPP, and first on quality of life according to the economist. It's okay to accept that things are pretty decent here. Enormous room for improvement, as always there is, especially given that we're a very young "modern" economy and society. I feel the earlier poster was projecting quite a bit of personal social dissatisfaction onto nebulous "it's the culture here!" claims, which are very suspect, in addition to making claims about economic mismanagement. I've done nothing but refute those claims.

I believe you said you went to beach and then to a club. While you may not have acutally drunk, the club is there for the purposes of selling alcohol. It's not social, you can never hear the person beside you.

You made a comment about the governemnt ploughing funding into road building and the airport: how does that help you if you only fly once or twice a year and you've no car?

How has public transport improved over the last ten years? Two metro lines in the capital (which only serve a fraction of the city) and very little outside. The result? Despite the road-building, there's still gridlock. At least here in Germany you have the option NOT TO DRIVE.