Guinness - the two-part pour. Why, exactly?

barclay2

I'm a big guinness fan, it's what i drink in the pub/clubs etc. I love watching it settle, i love its whole appearance, i love the taste and the texture....i love everything about it really.

But it's occurred to me, i dont actually know the reason for the two-part pour. I mean the precise reason for it. Can anyone tell me what it is?

biko

Draught Guinness is served cool with the beer line run through a cooler to chill the liquid to the required temperature. Due to the foaming action of the nitrogen, it requires a "double pour", where the pint is 3/4 filled, allowed to settle and then topped up to the full pint. Guinness has made a virtue of this wait with advertising campaigns such as "good things come to those who wait" and "it takes 119.53 seconds to pour the perfect pint". Following the settling of the initial pour, the pint is finished to the top of the glass by pushing the tap forward. The flow produced by this method is slower and thus helps create a firmer and longer lasting head on the pint.

Xavi6

Food & Drink forum FTW

FunkZ

I wouldn't mind some now!

Kold

A Beamish or Murphys for me please..

Boston

biko wrote: »

Draught Guinness is served cool with the beer line run through a cooler to chill the liquid to the required temperature. Due to the foaming action of the nitrogen, it requires a "double pour", where the pint is 3/4 filled, allowed to settle and then topped up to the full pint. Guinness has made a virtue of this wait with advertising campaigns such as "good things come to those who wait" and "it takes 119.53 seconds to pour the perfect pint". Following the settling of the initial pour, the pint is finished to the top of the glass by pushing the tap forward. The flow produced by this method is slower and thus helps create a firmer and longer lasting head on the pint.

Damn you. The pub is right over there...

mikemac

Can I hijack this thread?

In the local Tesco there are two kinds of Guinness cans. One is black and has Guinness Draught on it.
And the other has an old fashioned logo on it and says Guinness Stout.

Are these the same things in different packaging?

AARRRGH

I have all of Guinness's training manuals here. There's some mad stuff in them. Things like always massage the customers ego etc.

If I can be arsed later I'll go find their official (staff) explanation for the two part pour.

Nevyn

Stout does not have the widget in it and it stays the way it is in the can where as the draught has the widget that release the gas and it then settles when pours like a pint from a guinness tap.

JIZZLORD

biko wrote: »

Guinness has made a virtue of this wait with advertising campaigns such as "good things come to those who wait" and "it takes 119.53 seconds to pour the perfect pint".

pure marketing bs?

Senna

also, if it was done in just one pour, the head would be much larger.

Black Swan

Anticipation!

Agent Smith

He waits; that's what he does.
And I tell you what: tick followed tock followed tick followed tock followed tick...
Ahab says, 'I don't care who you are, here's to your dream.'
'Here's to you, Ahab'.
And the fat drummer hit the beat with all his heart.
Here's to waiting.

rubadub

micmclo wrote: »

Can I hijack this thread?

In the local Tesco there are two kinds of Guinness cans. One is black and has Guinness Draught on it.
And the other has an old fashioned logo on it and says Guinness Stout.

Are these the same things in different packaging?

No, they are both different recipes. It is not just gas that is different. The draught has only been out since 1959

faceman

i thought it had something to do with the head.

2Scoops

It's to identify American tourists - they will specifically ask for the 2-part pour.

Canis Lupus

Apart from making a head on the pint what's the big deal? Ah yes. Barman, top my pint up with foam. Does Guinness taste dramatically different if you just pour one pint straight? If you didn't see the barman pour the pint would you know?

Guinness tastes foul anyway imo.

green123

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Does Guinness taste dramatically different if you just pour one pint straight? If you didn't see the barman pour the pint would you know?

no and no

JIZZLORD

i've had good guinness done with a single pour. wouldnt class it as being the best, but a lot of how the pint tastes depends on how clean the pipes are, too clean and it's bad, to dirty and it's bad. just as we've all had a pint of lager that tasted kinda metallic

faceman

JIZZLORD wrote: »

i've had good guinness done with a single pour. wouldnt class it as being the best, but a lot of how the pint tastes depends on how clean the pipes are, too clean and it's bad, to dirty and it's bad. just as we've all had a pint of lager that tasted kinda metallic

Dont guinness service their own pipes in the pubs to ensure best taste etc?

monosharp

barclay2 wrote: »

I'm a big guinness fan, it's what i drink in the pub/clubs etc. I love watching it settle, i love its whole appearance, i love the taste and the texture....i love everything about it really.

But it's occurred to me, i don't actually know the reason for the two-part pour. I mean the precise reason for it. Can anyone tell me what it is?

I've yet to find a nightclub on the face of this earth where the Guinness is even half palatable. (to a Guinness drinker)

I dub thy a liar Sir!

I don't know the scientific reason for the double pour but do you not notice yourself the difference in taste ?

I got a pint of the black stuff last night in the middle of Seoul (Korea). Poured the lot STRAIGHT (no angle) into a 3/4 pint glass, got a knife, knocked off the head, topped her up and handed it to me.

I love Korea, I love Korean food, I love Korean people ... but by God I miss Guinness.

Boston

monosharp wrote: »

I've yet to find a nightclub on the face of this earth where the Guinness is even half palatable. (to a Guinness drinker)

I dub thy a liar Sir!

Whelan's In Dublin used to do a decent pint back in the day, though I haven't been in years.

The Chessplayer

barclay2 wrote: »

I'm a big guinness fan, it's what i drink in the pub/clubs etc. I love watching it settle, i love its whole appearance, i love the taste and the texture....i love everything about it really.

But it's occurred to me, i dont actually know the reason for the two-part pour. I mean the precise reason for it. Can anyone tell me what it is?

The Chessplayer is also partial to a pint of plain

Stirling

Ok be warned I used to work for Guinness so this will very much be the company line! The idea behind the two part pour is completely because of the gas in the beer.

To begin with there are three main variants of Guinness:

Guinness Foreign Extra Stout - Known as FES - has an alcohol volume of 7.5%and was first brewed in 1801 making it the only one of the three beers to be brewed during the lifetime of Arthur Guinness. It is primarily served in bottles but is available in cans in some foreign markets. It is a carbonated beer contributing to a bubbly head. Although the least well known in Ireland it is arguably the genune Guinness because of its age and the complexity of the flavour.

Guinness Extra Stout - Also known as Guinness Original in the UK this has an alcohol volume of 4.2% and was first brewed in 1821. Again it is served in bottles and is a carbonated beer with a bubbly head. It has a stronger taste than Guinness Draught even though they have the same alcohol content.

Guinness Draught - What people understand when they say Guinness despite the fact that it is less than half a century old being introduced in 1959 as part of the company's bicenterary celebrations. It is a nitrogenated beer, unlike the other two although it does have a certain amount of Carbon Dioxide present as a consequence of the fermentation process. It is this mixture of two gases that contributes to the two part pour.

The Two Part Pour - There are two lines, gas and beer, running into each Guinness Draught tap and on the first part of the pour the tap is bulled backwards to allow a free flowing mix of gas and beer to flow into the glass til it is 3/4 full. The seperation of the gases, or the settle, occurs as a consequence of the different atomic weights of the gases with the Nitrogen going to the top to form the head and the heavier carbon dioxide settlig through the beer. The 119.5 0r 119.53 seconds is not marketing hocus pocus but the time for this reaction to occur if the beer/gas mixture is properly set up and the barman has poured correctly. During the second part of the pour the tap is pushed forward and during this part the gas flow is reduced slightly so that there is fractionally more beer coming through. This has the effect of limiting the resettle which will occur if the tap is pulled back a secnd time.

There is a fractional, and this is very fractional, increase in bitterness if the tap is pulled back on both occasions or much greater increase if the pint is poured in one movement. Research has shown that the average consumer is unable to tell the difference between a good or a bad pint on the basis of taste alone and will judge this primarily on appearance and presentation. It is for this reason that so much effort and marketing is expended on the two part pour concept. It gives more to the idea of theatre that surrounds the ordering of a pint of Guinness.

As for the depth of the head this has more to do with temperature than it does with the pour and where the beer is too cold (any pub in Temple Bar!) it will have a smaller head and where too warm it will have an excessively large head.

gurramok

As long as the foamy bits stick to the inside of the glass after drinking, i know i have a good pint

Alanstrainor

Boston wrote: »

Whelan's In Dublin used to do a decent pint back in the day, though I haven't been in years.

+1 they do gorgeous pints, i've been going there the last few sundays and they've been fantastic!

Mint Sauce

had 6 or 7 pints of it last night, absoluty gougerious at the time, dont think i've ever experienced a single pour pint

machiavellianme

Stirling wrote: »

Ok be warned I used to work for Guinness so this will very much be the company line! The idea behind the two part pour is completely because of the gas in the beer.

To begin with there are three main variants of Guinness:

Guinness Foreign Extra Stout - Known as FES - has an alcohol volume of 7.5%and was first brewed in 1801 making it the only one of the three beers to be brewed during the lifetime of Arthur Guinness. It is primarily served in bottles but is available in cans in some foreign markets. It is a carbonated beer contributing to a bubbly head. Although the least well known in Ireland it is arguably the genune Guinness because of its age and the complexity of the flavour.

Guinness Extra Stout - Also known as Guinness Original in the UK this has an alcohol volume of 4.2% and was first brewed in 1821. Again it is served in bottles and is a carbonated beer with a bubbly head. It has a stronger taste than Guinness Draught even though they have the same alcohol content.

Guinness Draught - What people understand when they say Guinness despite the fact that it is less than half a century old being introduced in 1959 as part of the company's bicenterary celebrations. It is a nitrogenated beer, unlike the other two although it does have a certain amount of Carbon Dioxide present as a consequence of the fermentation process. It is this mixture of two gases that contributes to the two part pour.

The Two Part Pour - There are two lines, gas and beer, running into each Guinness Draught tap and on the first part of the pour the tap is bulled backwards to allow a free flowing mix of gas and beer to flow into the glass til it is 3/4 full. The seperation of the gases, or the settle, occurs as a consequence of the different atomic weights of the gases with the Nitrogen going to the top to form the head and the heavier carbon dioxide settlig through the beer. The 119.5 0r 119.53 seconds is not marketing hocus pocus but the time for this reaction to occur if the beer/gas mixture is properly set up and the barman has poured correctly. During the second part of the pour the tap is pushed forward and during this part the gas flow is reduced slightly so that there is fractionally more beer coming through. This has the effect of limiting the resettle which will occur if the tap is pulled back a secnd time.

There is a fractional, and this is very fractional, increase in bitterness if the tap is pulled back on both occasions or much greater increase if the pint is poured in one movement. Research has shown that the average consumer is unable to tell the difference between a good or a bad pint on the basis of taste alone and will judge this primarily on appearance and presentation. It is for this reason that so much effort and marketing is expended on the two part pour concept. It gives more to the idea of theatre that surrounds the ordering of a pint of Guinness.

As for the depth of the head this has more to do with temperature than it does with the pour and where the beer is too cold (any pub in Temple Bar!) it will have a smaller head and where too warm it will have an excessively large head.

What if its pushed forward in a single pour?

Sonnenblumen

Stirling - that was a great post, can't beat the inside line. Now if only Jim Figerty would spill the beans on how they get the figs into figrolls, two of Dublin's great mysteries will be solved.

Oh I forgot about Barney & Beaney........more!!!:D

The Chessplayer

machiavellianme wrote: »

What if its pushed forward in a single pour?

It would take all day. It doesn't come out as quickly when you push the tap forward.

The Chessplayer

monosharp wrote: »

I've yet to find a nightclub on the face of this earth where the Guinness is even half palatable. (to a Guinness drinker)

I dub thy a liar Sir!

I don't know the scientific reason for the double pour but do you not notice yourself the difference in taste ?

I got a pint of the black stuff last night in the middle of Seoul (Korea). Poured the lot STRAIGHT (no angle) into a 3/4 pint glass, got a knife, knocked off the head, topped her up and handed it to me.

I love Korea, I love Korean food, I love Korean people ... but by God I miss Guinness.

That is absolutely disgraceful. If I ever saw a barkeep doing that to my guinness I would smack him in the face with a glove.

The foreign extra stout is lovely. Takes a bit of getting used to first though. As for story about the nitrogenated Guinness - spot on! That Guinness ad where Tom Crean is pouring pints after his arctic explorations is historically inaccurate. It would be more likely that the Guinness he sold was bottled on-site from a barrel.

A lot of pubs these days don't even sell the Extra Stout which is a sorry state of affairs, because it's a quality drop. Try O'Haras stout, lovely stuff altogether, from the Carlow Brewing Company.

faceman

i wont name names here and im sure its not the only pub.

I kenw a guy who worked in a pub on the north side of dublin that has all but 1 of its guinness taps hooked up to the beamish kegs but charges for guinness... not sure if they are still getting away with it.

Lawless_Samurai

Been told it makes no difference what so ever. Its all in the mind. If you see a pint being pulled in one go you will instintly class that pint as a bad pint simply because it wasn't poured in two parts.

A friend of mine who works in a pub got into a heated argument with a few oul lads one night about this and to settle it he challenged them to try and tell the difference in a two part pour to a single poured pint and if they won he would pay for the pints used in the test and their drinks for the rest of the night. Big risk I thought but my friend said if they couldn't tell the difference they can never hassle him about it again (they brought this argument up alot) and to back him up if anyone else brought it up in the future.

Long story short the oul lads who were expert guinness drinkers could not tell the difference. Did the test three times and everytime they got it wrong.

In fairness the oul lads were true to their word as anytime this discussion comes up they back up my friend!

FunkyChicken

Any guinness drink with an ounce of brains (or perhaps a tongue) should be able to tell the difference between the two

edit: talking about Beamish and Guinness here

Lawless_Samurai

Well these lads couldn't tell the difference.

My dad too swears blind it makes all the difference. One night I was drinking with him and bought the round and told my friend to do it in a single pour.

Brought it down to him and he did not say a word.

I don't drink guinness but from what I've seen it really is all in peoples' heads.

kevmy

I've only once seen a single pour pint and it was also done straight ie. no tilt on the glass. I wasn't drinking it so I don't know taste wise how good it was. But then the guys did drink while it was still brown (settling) so I don't think it would have tasted great. It was in Luton airport btw and both barman and customer were English.

I still like to get mine the old-fashioned way even if it doesn't taste better it will look better. And as all top chefs tell you presentation is important.

View Profile

Worked for 7 years in hotel bar. We served excellent Guinness. Great flow on the tap and we had short lines which is key to a good pint of any beer/stout.
You do get people, usually older "professional" Guinness drinkers who have to have the perfect pint put in front of them or they will ask for another one. Wanted to punch them so many times!
Presentation is key, with the perfect sized head, no overspill, and in a Guinnesss branded glass with the brand name facing them and on a clean beer-mat. Very pedantic I know but it adds to the drinking experience.

Doing a one pour (tap fully down) will result in a massive head. You dont want that. And no scooping the head off with a knife. Not recommended as it can scratch the lip of the glass.

A one pour with the tap forward will result in a stale looking pint. As in it dosent need to settle as it will already be black. Dosent taste nice either.

Clubs generally have shyte Guinness as the taps are left idle all day. Guinness needs a good long flow. In the morning in the bar we would run off 2-3 pints before serving the first pint of the day. You can see the difference if you didnt, let alone taste the difference!

Tried O'Hara's stout there on the weekend and its lovely,a real old school beer!

KamiKazi

A good pint of Guinness is 75% presentation and 25% taste IMO.

The head sticking to the inside of the glass the whole way down is far more important than the pint tasting really nice.

Lawless_Samurai

So it does matter if it kinda tastes like crap so long as it looks good as you drink it!? Thats insane!

Like I've already said I don't drink guinness but I do drink whiskey and all I'm concerned with when I'm drinking it is that it tastes GOOD!!!!

KamiKazi

No, of course it needs to taste good.

My point was that the average punter will enjoy a pint that tastes good and looks great more than if it tastes slightly better than the first pint but looks crap.

Anyone else get what I mean?

The Chessplayer

FunkyChicken wrote: »

Any guinness drink with an ounce of brains (or perhaps a tongue) should be able to tell the difference between the two

edit: talking about Beamish and Guinness here

Beamish is a lovely drop I have to say, would be hard to call a favourite between it and guinness. I was down in Cork not so long ago, suppin on a few pints, and got talking to a few oul lads who maintained that the drinking of Murphy's in Cork is only a new sort of fad, a kind of tradition made up if you know what I mean. Must be a way for the Cork heads to assert their independence. Not to take away from Murphy's either - it's a quality drop as well, bit on the sweet side for me though. Lovely out of the bottles

faceman

when i was a student the local barman used to call beamish "a pint of social welfare"

guinnessdrinker

faceman wrote: »

when i was a student the local barman used to call beamish "a pint of social welfare"

Yeah, I remember when Guiness cost £2 a pint and Beamish was a full 15p cheaper at £1.85 per pint, that was in about 1999 or 2000! Beamish is still a nice pint though although I haven't seen it available on tap for a while.

BeerNut

I'm on the marketing bullshít side on this one.

In Beer & Cider in Ireland: The Complete Guide (a fantastic book which anyone who drinks Irish beer should have) the author explains that in urban pubs up until the 1950s Guinness was a blend of fresh fizzy stout topped with aged "stale" Guinness. Waiting for the bubbles on the fresh beer to subside before adding the older stuff was normal, and blending them correctly was a skill. When Guinness began serving from nitrokegs in 1959, they invented the two-part pour to recreate the feel of the old system and reduce customer suspicion of the new product. It serves no purpose and certainly doesn't affect what little flavour draught Guinness has.

Monosharp, why aren't you drinking Hite Stout? It's amazingly similar to bottled Guinness.

gucci

Stirling wrote: »

The Two Part Pour - There are two lines, gas and beer, running into each Guinness Draught tap and on the first part of the pour the tap is bulled backwards to allow a free flowing mix of gas and beer to flow into the glass til it is 3/4 full.

Sorry to be anal here, but is there two lines, or just one line, with the stout and gas mixture inside.....that would be my understanding.
One beer line going into a Guinness tap.

Also (for extra information) the whistle noise you hear when guinness is being poured is the stout being forced though a jetting/foaming disc, or a disc with 5 or 6 very small holes in it to make it foam.

I have done the study (if you can call it that!) of the 1 and 2 part pour in a couple of places with very good guinness and to be honest i cant really tell the difference.

Good guinness is good guinness and in my opinion one of the finest drinks a person who likes a tipple could ever enjoy.

humberklog

There's a barman in harry byrnes in clontarf who pours it almost right to the top on 1st pour and the puts in a final 10mmtop up. It's different.Not siesmic but v.subtle. I avoid this barman. I think the most important part is the 45degree angle pour.

BeerNut

humberklog wrote: »

I think the most important part is the 45degree angle pour.

I think the most important part is the psychology.

mikemac

faceman wrote: »

when i was a student the local barman used to call beamish "a pint of social welfare"

lol, when I was a barman we called it the same. The only people who drank it were students and lads on the dole/disability.

Some people even look down on Beamish drinkers, "it's a poor mans's drink"

Edit: I'd go along with most people who say presentation of a pint is vitally important. Many so-called Guinness experts couldn't tella 2 part pour from a one part pour in a blind test.
A good pint in a Guinness pint glass looks great!
The next pint you order get the barman to use a branded glass, your money so your choice.

I insist on getting Carlsberg in a Carlsberg glass. It's not being anal, just getting what you want

Brockagh

BeerNut wrote: »

I'm on the marketing bullshít side on this one.

In Beer & Cider in Ireland: The Complete Guide (a fantastic book which anyone who drinks Irish beer should have) the author explains that in urban pubs up until the 1950s Guinness was a blend of fresh fizzy stout topped with aged "stale" Guinness. Waiting for the bubbles on the fresh beer to subside before adding the older stuff was normal, and blending them correctly was a skill. When Guinness began serving from nitrokegs in 1959, they invented the two-part pour to recreate the feel of the old system and reduce customer suspicion of the new product. It serves no purpose and certainly doesn't affect what little flavour draught Guinness has.

Monosharp, why aren't you drinking Hite Stout? It's amazingly similar to bottled Guinness.

This was my understanding. I believe it's exactly the same now, whether you pour it in one go or two. An important factor in the quality of the pint is that you're in a pub that serves a lot of guinness, as it shouldn't be sitting in the tubes for too long.

monosharp

BeerNut wrote: »

Monosharp, why aren't you drinking Hite Stout? It's amazingly similar to bottled Guinness.

Serious ? I was going to give it a go the other night but decided against it. Will try it tonight. Thanks mate.

p.s > I drink CASS and Hite and honestly ... I wouldn't be able to tell you which one was which when they are put in front of me. But me aussie mates say they are very different. Guess my beer tastebuds don't work on lager.

p.s > Soju is a lovely Korean Gem

TheNog

BeerNut wrote: »

I think the most important part is the psychology.

It certainly is important part of the ritual. To see a barman take his time over pouring the pint using different angles and pours is vital. The customer should always watch the barman go through the process from start to finish. MUch better than having a pint of cider or lager 'cos I feel it is just slapped up to you.

I remember back home when me and my group of friends (about 6 of us) went to the local pub we all drank Guinness and we all ordered at the same time. We watched very step of the process with anticipation until the pints were respectively placed in front of us by the barman as if he were giving us a piece of communion. We could've nearly bowed our heads to the Guinness before we viewed the pint from all angles,waiting for them to settle, viewing the pint again from all angles before taking the first sip followed by an "Ahhhh".

On a typical Saturday night in a small country village pub the barmen would have anywhere between 15 to 20 pints on the first pour and waiting for orders. It was a great sight to behold and the barmen had the whole timing down to a tee.