WIT University

Sully · 08-05-2008 10:10AM

Can we stick to the topic and remain civil please? Thanks.

fricatus · 08-05-2008 01:06PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Wow,all that just because Batt O Keefe is *assumed* to not be in favour of your cause.

True, we're making assumptions, based on two facts: that he's a former CIT lecturer on one hand, and the fact that Cork RTC kicked up the mother of all hissy fits when Waterford RTC was upgraded to WIT, and is doing the same lobbying now to make sure that WIT doesn't get upgraded without CIT getting the same treatment. Maybe it's not a fair assumption to make; maybe he is in favour of a university in Waterford!

The other point that I think mfitzy was trying to make is that it's unusual to have a relatively unknown TD dropped into a big portfolio like Education as his first senior ministry. I take an average interest in politics (watch Questions and Answers, read the Irish Times, etc.) and I can safely say I've never heard Batt O'Keeffe speak and I don't know his views on anything (whereas I've at least seen and heard Pat Carey for instance). I'm not saying that he's not going to be a good minister or anything, just that you'd expect to know something about whoever had been given the education portfolio.

In any case, the minister is supposed to act in the interests of the country, and not those of his county, parish, or any former employer, so I'm sure he'll do the right thing and create a university in the south-east!

invincibleirish · 08-05-2008 02:41PM

Wow! Look who just dropped in

Yes the voice of reason and common sense is back;)

fricatus wrote: »

True, we're making assumptions, based on two facts: that he's a former CIT lecturer on one hand, and the fact that Cork RTC kicked up the mother of all hissy fits when Waterford RTC was upgraded to WIT, and is doing the same lobbying now to make sure that WIT doesn't get upgraded without CIT getting the same treatment. Maybe it's not a fair assumption to make; maybe he is in favour of a university in Waterford!

The other point that I think mfitzy was trying to make is that it's unusual to have a relatively unknown TD dropped into a big portfolio like Education as his first senior ministry. I take an average interest in politics (watch Questions and Answers, read the Irish Times, etc.) and I can safely say I've never heard Batt O'Keeffe speak and I don't know his views on anything (whereas I've at least seen and heard Pat Carey for instance). I'm not saying that he's not going to be a good minister or anything, just that you'd expect to know something about whoever had been given the education portfolio.

In any case, the minister is supposed to act in the interests of the country, and not those of his county, parish, or any former employer, so I'm sure he'll do the right thing and create a university in the south-east!

Oh your not wrong, Batt O Keeffe is an effective public nobody, but given his seniority within FF and his electoral achievements he has been pushing hard for ministerial duties since 2002(and has held lots of non ministerial but still important positions within the Government). I would guess even he was surprised at getting a full ministry.

As regards WIT, i doubt it will be he himself making a decision over its status, It'll be Cowen and the DoF.

As for your last point, surely the right thing to do is assess the national interest. Its in the national interest to strengthen our existing Universities and consolidate them (and push into the top 200 on the Shanghai Rankings). As you well know they are all facing financial difficulties and are being usurped internationally. The last thing the third level sector needs is millions into a new University and bringing it up to standard when existing universities are struggling.

Bards · 08-05-2008 07:56PM

....and thousands of families in the S.E are struggling to send their sons and daughters to Universities outside the region to less populated regions with Universties... How is that fair and equitable?

invincibleirish · 08-05-2008 08:43PM

Bards wrote: »

....and thousands of families in the S.E are struggling to send their sons and daughters to Universities outside the region to less populated regions with Universties... How is that fair and equitable?

Where has a University which is less populated then Waterford?

Dublin? Cork? Limerick? Galway?.

(dont try and cheat with Maynooth, thats Dublin area too)

Dac51 · 08-05-2008 08:58PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Where has a University which is less populated then Waterford?

Dublin? Cork? Limerick? Galway?.

(dont try and cheat with Maynooth, thats Dublin area too)

UL serves Mid-West Region, Population 361k

NUIG serves West Region, Population 414k

Trinity, UCD, DCU and Maynooth serve the Dublin region (Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow), Population 1,662k / 4 = 1 university per 415k people.

South East with no university, Population 461k.

All population figures are from 2006 census per CSO website.

I rest my case.

invincibleirish · 08-05-2008 09:03PM

Dac51 wrote: »

UL serves Mid-West Region, Population 361k

NUIG serves West Region, Population 414k

Trinity, UCD, DCU and Maynooth serve the Dublin region (Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow), Population 1,662k / 4 = 1 university per 415k people.

South East with no university, Population 461k.

All population figures are from 2006 census per CSO website.

I rest my case.

What is this Southeast? im thinking Kilkenny, Wexford & West Waterford are all well within commuting distance of other universities, is WIT really going to defer potential people from UCC, UL & Dublin colleges? there is already surplus in the number of University places.

Dac51 · 08-05-2008 09:24PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

What is this Southeast? im thinking Kilkenny, Wexford & West Waterford are all well within commuting distance of other universities, is WIT really going to defer potential people from UCC, UL & Dublin colleges? there is already surplus in the number of University places.

Therin lies the problem. These people may commute to other universities but most will never return to the region, i.e. brain drain.

Also, can you define commuting distance? Do you mean attending a travelling to and from a university each day? Get real.

invincibleirish · 08-05-2008 09:54PM

Dac51 wrote: »

Therin lies the problem. These people may commute to other universities but most will never return to the region, i.e. brain drain.

Also, can you define commuting distance? Do you mean attending a travelling to and from a university each day? Get real.

Not before you tell me why WIT should get status and funding when there is already a surplus of university places? why should the current Unis, struggling for funding as it is, go without to fulfil another regionals whim. Can anyone answer mewhy Waterford deserves more importance then Irelands interest. we have enough universities.

Bards · 08-05-2008 10:39PM

Universities exist first and foremost to educate the population, and not as some self serving elitist institutions. So what if none of the Universities are in the top 200 Worldwide. We only have 4m inhabitants.

To compete in the knowledge economy, we must educate more PhD level graduates per year then we are doing so at present. To deny a region of 460,000 that oppurtunity is not only wrong but morally reprehensible, when other less populous regions have access to this level of education practically on their doorstep

Secondly, to answer your question as to what is the S.E region (see www.sera.ie). I will pose another one. What is the mid west region?, what is the West region? Can people from South Limerick not commute to Cork? Can students from North clare not commute to Galway? Why is one of the most populous regions in this republic being disadvantaged?

blanko · 08-05-2008 11:21PM

Its interesting that many of the points against a USE were made at the time that UL was upgraded. Cork and Galway are an hour away in each direction, could the money not be spent in the existing universities. But the political calculus was in its favour and a good thing too. It is very clear that UL was a great investment in Limerick and the mid west region- possibly the best every made. Education grows a middle class of knowledge workers and is a vibrant focal point for inward investment and entrepreneurship, as well as contributing to the cultural life of a city.

The other universities are not worried about WIT (or whatever a USE might be) getting an extra €20 million per annum, within the overall Department of Education budget that amount of money falls behind the couch and could be found if needed. As an investment it is a no-brainer as it has a multiplier effect in the local economy that is ultimately taxed.
Other universities will resist the founding of another university because it will be another competitor for the best students (the lifeblood of a 3rd level institution), the best staff and they feel it may take from the specialness of their hallowed corridors. They also fear it will lead to other IoTs seeking an upgrade, and that this may have political implications in many constituencies if resisted.

Batt O’Keeffe does not seem to be the brave and bright politician to do the right thing, righting the wrong done to the SE when the NUIs, RTCs and NIHEs were founded. I would love to be proved wrong, but from the outside he does not look like a Donagh O’Malley.

road_high · 08-05-2008 11:26PM

Dac51 wrote: »

UL serves Mid-West Region, Population 361k

NUIG serves West Region, Population 414k

Trinity, UCD, DCU and Maynooth serve the Dublin region (Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow), Population 1,662k / 4 = 1 university per 415k people.

South East with no university, Population 461k.

All population figures are from 2006 census per CSO website.

I rest my case.

Wow I never even realised our pop figures were so far ahead. And even south Kildare and s Wicklow are easy within any Waterford catchment too.
Seems to me that everything here in the SE has to doubly justified over and over again (M9 is a prime example) whereas such things are taken as a given elsewhere. Despite having more people :eek:
Thankfully though the strong population growth is something that can't be taken away nor denied. Itr is an extremely strong argument on the regions side

invincibleirish · 08-05-2008 11:35PM

Look guys we're not obviously not going to agree, but tell me this. how will WITs upgrade be funded. where will it come from?. The education budget or something special?What will be cut to make way for Waterfords funding? the DoE has more pressing funding concerns dontchaknow?

The point i continously make is that there is a surplus of University places. you are proposing increasing demand at a time when demand is shrinking.?

Is there any private funding proposals in place?

I find the notion in 21st Century Ireland that people cant go to university just because it is in a different city nonsense. Universities have Access programmes for those who cant afford to pay for college.

Bards · 09-05-2008 08:32AM

Why don;t we just close down all the Uiversities and travel to Wales or N.I instead, sure isn't that in another City and is only accross the water/border. I am sure they could subsidise famalies that couldn;t afford the outlay. Just think of all the money that would be saved by the Irish exchequer not having to fund universities in this country!!!

blanko · 09-05-2008 10:16AM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Look guys we're not obviously not going to agree, but tell me this. how will WITs upgrade be funded. where will it come from?. The education budget or something special?What will be cut to make way for Waterfords funding? the DoE has more pressing funding concerns dontchaknow?

The point i continously make is that there is a surplus of University places. you are proposing increasing demand at a time when demand is shrinking.?

Is there any private funding proposals in place?

I find the notion in 21st Century Ireland that people cant go to university just because it is in a different city nonsense. Universities have Access programmes for those who cant afford to pay for college.

The DoE budget is €9.3 billion, if you consider that an upgrade would move WIT from its current funding position of €49 million up to UL's funding of around €80- you are talking about 0.4 of 1% of the budget. This is not a funding issue, it simply is not big enough of a government spend for them to dither over the money. A fair proportion of the spend is reclaimed in direct tax and it more than covers itself from a rise in multiplier taxes, because of increased economic activity. I am sure you could find many examples of comparatively frivolous government spending but that is not the point (for example I enjoyed reading my national emergency booklet).

This is a strategic issue not a financial issue- indeed the government would love to pay for the issue to go away. It requires a political decision that will upset someone and FF, as a catch all party are not known for being brave and risking upset. It will happen if the cost of upsetting the South East is greater than the cost of upsetting Cork, and with Batt O'Keeffe in the hot seat I think the fix is in.

Amazotheamazing · 09-05-2008 10:42AM

invincibleirish wrote: »

The point i continously make is that there is a surplus of University places. you are proposing increasing demand at a time when demand is shrinking.?

I made that point several pages back but of course, no logical reason can be made against it.

Ireland is a small country, one with limited resources, rather than bloating the university sector, we should face facts that we already have too many universities as it is. The numbers going to college are dropping, the points are dropping and demand for most courses is dropping. We should work on making the current system better so Irish graduates are among the best in the world, not adding an extra university to satisfy the whims of parochialism.

The current set-up reminds me of how the GAA build stadiums, every county-board seems intent on building a huge stadium for themselves can will only rarely be fully utilised as there just isn't enough big matches to go around. Hence we get crazy situations where top tier stadia lie empty for all but one or two games a year.

It's the same with the case for Waterford's University. It's not whether it would be good for Waterford, or course it would be, a University would be great for Carlow or Kilkenny or Letterkenny, or Athlone too, but whether an additional university would be good for the Irish education system?

As we can see points dropping and courses going unfilled, it seems pretty clear that no, Ireland doesn't need another university. People need to look beyond parochialism and see the unified whole of the education system and ask what's best for it.

Bards · 09-05-2008 10:43AM

just remember that for every existing vote FF loose to another party over this issue it is actually a two vote differential. Eample: FF & FG are both on 500 votes, I decide to swap allegience to FG hence FF are now 499 and FG are now 501

Bards · 09-05-2008 10:48AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I made that point several pages back but of course, no logical reason can be made against it.

Ireland is a small country, one with limited resources, rather than bloating the university sector, we should face facts that we already have too many universities as it is. The numbers going to college are dropping, the points are dropping and demand for most courses is dropping. We should work on making the current system better so Irish graduates are among the best in the world, not adding an extra university to satisfy the whims of parochialism.

The current set-up reminds me of how the GAA build stadiums, every county-board seems intent on building a huge stadium for themselves can will only rarely be fully utilised as there just isn't enough big matches to go around. Hence we get crazy situations where top tier stadia lie empty for all but one or two games a year.

It's the same with the case for Waterford's University. It's not whether it would be good for Waterford, or course it would be, a University would be great for Carlow or Kilkenny or Letterkenny, or Athlone too, but whether an additional university would be good for the Irish education system?

As we can see points dropping and courses going unfilled, it seems pretty clear that no, Ireland doesn't need another university. People need to look beyond parochialism and see the unified whole of the education system and ask what's best for it.

that was the very same argument that the university sector made when UL wanted to become a University & they were wrong, and the nay sayers are wrong again this time. There are many people in the S.E that would love to go to University but cannot afford it. unless you are very poor then you will get a grant/subsistence, but the avg industrial wage will not cover sending their kids to universities in other regions.

Amazotheamazing · 09-05-2008 11:20AM

Bards wrote: »

that was the very same argument that the university sector made when UL wanted to become a University & they were wrong, and the nay sayers are wrong again this time. There are many people in the S.E that would love to go to University but cannot afford it. unless you are very poor then you will get a grant/subsistence, but the avg industrial wage will not cover sending their kids to universities in other regions.

And perhaps the arguments against UL are correct, it is close to UCC and NUIG, with a proper road from Limerick to either Cork or Galway you could be in either in about and hour or less.

I'm afraid you're incorrect on the grant, I got it and several of my friends got it and while our parents weren't well off, we weren't below the poverty line either. The grant is available, and of course, it is possible to work while in college, either during the term or on the holidays, I did it and managed a first.

I would go as far as to say that anyone who says they can't afford to send their kid to college because the college isn't in their home region is lying, or isn't looking into the funding properly. And of course, if the kid in question really wants to go, he or she will find a way to finance it whether through student loans with a bank or working or whatever. As Irish mentioned above, all the universities have special schemes to allow students from poor backgrounds attend. If you know of someone who can't afford to go to college, I suggest you ask him to ring the university he or she wishes to attend and ask about it.

Bduffman · 09-05-2008 02:25PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I made that point several pages back but of course, no logical reason can be made against it.

Ireland is a small country, one with limited resources, rather than bloating the university sector, we should face facts that we already have too many universities as it is. The numbers going to college are dropping, the points are dropping and demand for most courses is dropping. We should work on making the current system better so Irish graduates are among the best in the world, not adding an extra university to satisfy the whims of parochialism.

The current set-up reminds me of how the GAA build stadiums, every county-board seems intent on building a huge stadium for themselves can will only rarely be fully utilised as there just isn't enough big matches to go around. Hence we get crazy situations where top tier stadia lie empty for all but one or two games a year.

It's the same with the case for Waterford's University. It's not whether it would be good for Waterford, or course it would be, a University would be great for Carlow or Kilkenny or Letterkenny, or Athlone too, but whether an additional university would be good for the Irish education system?

As we can see points dropping and courses going unfilled, it seems pretty clear that no, Ireland doesn't need another university. People need to look beyond parochialism and see the unified whole of the education system and ask what's best for it.

If its just a supply issue then why not reduce other universities places & allocate them to Waterford? It would be a fairer regional based system.

blanko · 09-05-2008 03:19PM

The light numbers are only until 2011 and then they will rise again- the baby boom that started in early 1990s, on top of that the numbers of mature students and international students is expected to lead to renewed growing in the tertiary sector.

As a nation we are also moving (with some speed) into more expensive forms of education (research, Phds, entrepreneurship mentoring, technology transfer, technology, science, medicine, architecture etc) and moving away from the pile em high response to the explosion of numbers in the 1980s and early 1990s. In UCC I was one of 420 doing the BComm, with very little personal attention (for example doing presentations- important given that top of the list for most employers is interpersonal/communication skills) and support. My lectures were brilliant, but overburdened and had very little time/space/energy to reflect on what they were doing let alone to do leading edge research.

So in my humble opinion this is not about a redistribution of resources or places, its about a modest amount of fresh resources to equitably regionalise this new growth.

Amazotheamazing · 09-05-2008 07:31PM

Bduffman wrote: »

If its just a supply issue then why not reduce other universities places & allocate them to Waterford? It would be a fairer regional based system.

Why not go further and have one university department in every town in the country? Maybe the entire campus idea is outdated?

Waterford University is nothing but a vanity project, if the Gov decided to up WIT"s funding but keep it an IT everyone would lose the plot and say that although they aren't snobs, the name university is really important etc.

invincibleirish · 10-05-2008 03:22AM

Bduffman wrote: »

If its just a supply issue then why not reduce other universities places & allocate them to Waterford? It would be a fairer regional based system.

Come on then tell me, what Unis programmes are getting cuts? where should cuts be to satisfy another regional whinge? Why dont you come to my University UCC and shut down half the place so Waterford can feel better?.

All i'll say is this, if WIT gets university status you can be sure the first thing they will do is to establish some BA programmes,
This country doesnt need more BA Grads.

look at the UK, there is a caste system in place, whereby the Old Unis and the New Unis (upgraded polytechnics) are worlds apart in size, funding and prestige. The latter are in a sense Universities in names only(and have loads of empty places and i mean 100s, check out UCAS website after the intial UK offers are out to see what i mean)Guess which category WIT would fall into?.

*edit* Irish universities are already facing a funding shortage as they struggle to compete in the 21st Century. We (as in the Irish taxpayers) dont need to subsidise another new University when our current Unis are underfunded.

invincibleirish · 10-05-2008 03:29AM

blanko wrote: »

The light numbers are only until 2011 and then they will rise again- the baby boom that started in early 1990s, on top of that the numbers of mature students and international students is expected to lead to renewed growing in the tertiary sector.

As a nation we are also moving (with some speed) into more expensive forms of education (research, Phds, entrepreneurship mentoring, technology transfer, technology, science, medicine, architecture etc) and moving away from the pile em high response to the explosion of numbers in the 1980s and early 1990s. In UCC I was one of 420 doing the BComm, with very little personal attention (for example doing presentations- important given that top of the list for most employers is interpersonal/communication skills) and support. My lectures were brilliant, but overburdened and had very little time/space/energy to reflect on what they were doing let alone to do leading edge research.

So in my humble opinion this is not about a redistribution of resources or places, its about a modest amount of fresh resources to equitably regionalise this new growth.

Then lets wait until 2011 to see if your predictions are correct.

In the mean time i'll give the whole "if you(Irish taxpayers) build it they will come" philosophy a miss as its that midset that has given us such excellent ideas as Shannon, the WRC, etc. etc. which has served our country *so* well .

Has WIT contacted the Feeney foundation?.

invincibleirish · 10-05-2008 03:37AM

Bards wrote: »

There are many people in the S.E that would love to go to University but cannot afford it.

Good grief this is nonsense. this is the best you can come up with? i know the SE isnt as Rich as other regions,but you are not a 3rd world country.

I would hazard that 99% of people in the SE who want to go to Uni will go. UL & UCC have plenty of SE types.FACT!.

Freddie59 · 11-05-2008 12:32PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Good grief this is nonsense. this is the best you can come up with? i know the SE isnt as Rich as other regions,but you are not a 3rd world country.

I would hazard that 99% of people in the SE who want to go to Uni will go. UL & UCC have plenty of SE types.FACT!.

Ok. How's ths for you then? I have an 18 year-old daughter sitting her Leaving Certificate. The course (voice and drama - an arts course) is only available in Limerick. When I brough her to her audition I spoke to a young lady who travelled down from Galway for hers. And then it dawned on me - Limerick and Galway. Two unis withing 60 miles (commuting distance) of each other. And one University cannot be provided in the South East.
While a whole region - the South East - is blatantly discriminated against. As the main breadwinner in my family (my wife works part-time) it will cost us - literally - an arm and a leg to send our daughter to Limerick.

Were a University available to us in the South East we would save thousands of Euro per year. Now, InvincibleIrish, can you open your eyes slightly and look at the implications for us 'south-east types' as you so eloquently describe us?

This area (and similarly the North West) urgently require University access. Simple fact. So you can quote all the statistics you want, but only one matters.

An area with a poulation of just under half a million people is being discriminated against on an ongoing basis while three Universities are situated with 140 miles of each other in another area.

As one who has voted FF since eligible, if we do not get a University this time around I will not vote for them ever again. And there are many more FF supporters with a similar outlook.

The sheer arrogance, rudeness, and ignorance of the issue displayed by Mary Hanafin beggared belief. I sincerely hope that Minister O'Keefe will not be of like mind.

Freddie59 · 11-05-2008 12:35PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Waterford University is nothing but a vanity project

That is - without exception - the most ignorant and uninformed comment I have ever heard on this issue.

You also say that "I would go as far as to say that anyone who says they can't afford to send their kid to college because the college isn't in their home region is lying"

Are you really that out of touch or merely arrogant, as well as ill-informed?

Our income brings us over the limit for the grant - but we are not that much over the limit that we could be considered - in your parlance - 'well off'.

We are lucky that our eldest daughter (3rd year) is able to attend her chosen (Business) course at WIT. As she lives at home, there are no accomodation fees - which come to roughly €4,000 per year. And that's before any other fees or expenses.

Now, you can argue that others are in the same boat, but if University access was made more widely available throughout the country this would reduce costs enormously for families. It's extremely disturbing to see your ever-so-smug and condescending attitude towards a region crying out for a University for years.

The closed shop mentality of the Universities sector - propped up by an even more arrogant and out of touch Minister (hanafin) - is beyond it in the 21st Century. Amazingly, if such a practice existed in the private sector it would be called anti-competitive (and rightly so) with the competition authority called in.

Where are you located/living yourself Amazo?

Amazotheamazing · 11-05-2008 01:08PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

That is - without exception - the most ignorant and uninformed comment I have ever heard on this issue.

Where are you located/living yourself?

From Limerick, and I can see why Waterford wants a university, but the truth is, in my experience of the university sector, we have too many already.

There are plenty of cogent arguments against UL, and NUI, M for that matter.

As a country, we need to get away from the parochialism of local politics and the tribalism that passes for debate. We need to look at Ireland as a whole.

It is a small country with one city, Dublin, and several larger or smaller regional towns. Cork is a regional town, so is Limerick, Galway and Waterford. Let's stop hiding behind designations and fact the reality of regional Ireland.

We have the crazy notion that every town needs an international airport, seaport and university, even worse, we have the crazy notion that's there's some limitless pot of gold to pay for all this. And some limitless number of "consumers" for all these products. Every town is so busy trying to grab whatever it can from the pot of gold that there in so thought been given as to how each town should develop.

If you choose to live in a regional town, you consciously forgo some benefit that could come from living in a larger town or city. The only thing is, people don't see this. They think because they want something, the rest of the country should provide it. Are Waterford people bothered by the fact that we have too mant universities and too few students already? No. Are Waterford people bothered by the fact that every university is already under-funded? No. Of course not, Waterford people have no interest in the general health of the university sector as long as Waterford gets a university. It's understandable, but it's narrow minded.

Ireland is a small country, we have limited pool of taxes, and we have limited people who'll go to university. Even if it was truly free, there's still only a fixed number of people who would go. We've over-stretched on university places, hence points are dropping. We've too many places and not enough students. Of course, somewhere in the South East there's roughly 500,000 people who will go university tomorrow if only one was provided....

Course, what do Waterford people think of academic standards? All for them I guess, course, for the past 10 years universities are complaining that students are arriving to universities without having the basic ability to survive university courses. People are doing doss leaving cert courses and then waking up in university and realising they can't manage the math of engineering, or the research needed for Arts or whatever. But of course, we need more university places....

We need to get over the irish notion that 100kms is a big distance, it isn't. It's tiny, we're a small country and proper investment in infrastructure would make the distance relatively smaller again. Was Ireland better off for building UL, or would a motorway between Galway and Cork be a better investment? With a proper motorway, Limerick is less than hour from either Cork or Galway (90 kms on a 120 km/h road). But no, people shouted, and rather than build a motorway, they went a built a university.

Imo, we as a country, have no need for another university, wherever you wish to locate it. We don't have the student numbers to justify it, we don't have the money to pay for it considering how little we need it, we already sell our existing universities short through under-funding. We'd be better off improving both our existing universities and providing the infrastructure to make people realise 100k isn't a huge distance.

Freddie59 · 11-05-2008 01:22PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

From Limerick, and I can see why Waterford wants a university, but the truth is, in my experience of the university sector, we have too many already.

There are plenty of cogent arguments against UL, and NUI, M for that matter.

As a country, we need to get away from the parochialism of local politics and the tribalism that passes for debate. We need to look at Ireland as a whole.

It is a small country with one city, Dublin, and several larger or smaller regional towns. Cork is a regional town, so is Limerick, Galway and Waterford. Let's stop hiding behind designations and fact the reality of regional Ireland.

We have the crazy notion that every town needs an international airport, seaport and university, even worse, we have the crazy notion that's there's some limitless pot of gold to pay for all this. And some limitless number of "consumers" for all these products. Every town is so busy trying to grab whatever it can from the pot of gold that there in so thought been given as to how each town should develop.

If you choose to live in a regional town, you consciously forgo some benefit that could come from living in a larger town or city. The only thing is, people don't see this. They think because they want something, the rest of the country should provide it. Are Waterford people bothered by the fact that we have too mant universities and too few students already? No. Are Waterford people bothered by the fact that every university is already under-funded? No. Of course not, Waterford people have no interest in the general health of the university sector as long as Waterford gets a university. It's understandable, but it's narrow minded.

Ireland is a small country, we have limited pool of taxes, and we have limited people who'll go to university. Even if it was truly free, there's still only a fixed number of people who would go. We've over-stretched on university places, hence points are dropping. We've too many places and not enough students. Of course, somewhere in the South East there's roughly 500,000 people who will go university tomorrow if only one was provided....

Course, what do Waterford people think of academic standards? All for them I guess, course, for the past 10 years universities are complaining that students are arriving to universities without having the basic ability to survive university courses. People are doing doss leaving cert courses and then waking up in university and realising they can't manage the math of engineering, or the research needed for Arts or whatever. But of course, we need more university places....

We need to get over the irish notion that 100kms is a big distance, it isn't. It's tiny, we're a small country and proper investment in infrastructure would make the distance relatively smaller again. Was Ireland better off for building UL, or would a motorway between Galway and Cork be a better investment? With a proper motorway, Limerick is less than hour from either Cork or Galway (90 kms on a 120 km/h road). But no, people shouted, and rather than build a motorway, they went a built a university.

Imo, we as a country, have no need for another university, wherever you wish to locate it. We don't have the student numbers to justify it, we don't have the money to pay for it considering how little we need it, we already sell our existing universities short through under-funding. We'd be better off improving both our existing universities and providing the infrastructure to make people realise 100k isn't a huge distance.

Ah Limerick - explains it all then. I'm alright Jack - so f*** you. That attitude has brought this country to it's knees for years. The Shannon area - for whatever political reasons - has been mollycoddled and protected for years. Now that they have to come into the real world they expect other areas to toe the line and not receive their fair share.

Waterford and the South-East's proximity to Europe (and the fact that we are a gateway city) would be a huge competitor for the Shannon region. Well, my frend, get used to it. You've had your day - ours is coming. It's inevitable.

When WU becomes a reality we'll see how it all pans out. And whether or not the Mid-West can hold it's own without being babysat as it has been for years. I had some sympathy for the Shannon airport workers during the Aer Lingus debacle last year. That has quickly evaporated given the snide and downright arrogant nature of your comments towards Waterford and the South East.

Amazotheamazing · 11-05-2008 01:40PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ah Limerick - explains it all then. I'm alright Jack - so f*** you. That attitude has brought this country to it's knees for years. The Shannon area - for whatever political reasons - has been mollycoddled and protected for years. Now that they have to come into the real world they expect other areas to toe the line and not receive their fair share.

Waterford and the South-East's proximity to Europe (and the fact that we are a gateway city) would be a huge competitor for the Shannon region. Well, my frend, get used to it. You've had your day - ours is coming. It's inevitable.

When WU becomes a reality we'll see how it all pans out. And whether or not the Mid-West can hold it's own without being babysat as it has been for years. I had some sympathy for the Shannon airport workers during the Aer Lingus debacle last year. That has quickly evaporated given the snide and downright arrogant nature of your comments towards Waterford and the South East.

So it's all about parochialism. Thanks for proving my point. I guess if I'd said I was from Cork you'd accuse me of Cork bias, if i was from Galway you'd go on about how the West always gets priority over the South East. etc etc.

You probably do think the Mid-west gets favouritism, I'm sure I could find several on the midwest/Limerick board who feels it gets overlooked. That's my point, we need to move away from the parochialism you're advocating. Rather than discuss the merits of my earlier post, you immediately seized on the "oh he's from Limerick, let's slag the Midwest" so beloved of everyone who doesn't want reasoned debate, but wants to reduce this debate to my area vs. your area.

So, if were to ask you, why does Ireland need another university would you just keep on going on that everyone else has one? People have argued why Waterford wants a university, don't think anyone has shown Ireland needs one.

Btw, apart from pointing out it's a vanity project, which it is, which of my comments have been snide, or are you making personal attacks to further derail the debate?

WIT University

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