The Taxi Industry and how ridiculous it has gotten, a drivers view..

Mucco

Hamndegger wrote: »

I think you are missing two fundaments of the current problem here.

1) As it is too easy to enter the market, there is a wealth of new applicants, hearing of the shores of gold. Less than €10,000 and a tax clearance cert has you on the road; redundancy cash is oft spent on new entrants. A lot of these guys don't last 2 years when it is crystal clear it ain't so.
2) There is no tight standards for taxi drivers, viz a vis the minimum skill and knowledge of drivers required is rock bottom. Personally, I feel the trade needs a year of a cap, to allow for all vendors in it to tighten up and to let the market settle naturally.

As you say, it's about market forces. It's quite easy to enter the market (and leave), so why not give it a go?
I don't live in Dublin, so am not aware of the standards. However, I'd be wary of introducing barriers to entry. Things like the London 'knowledge' and standardised cabs such as in NY inevitably reduce the number of taxis in circulation, and therefore probably increase prices. So pay more for higher standards in knowledge and car, or pay less for the status quo.

M

lost marbles

ninja900 wrote: »

:mad: No they are not, never were and never will be. The blockades of the city drove that point home. Their only interest is self-interest.


And they didn't have to do that when they had a six-figure loan for the plate to pay off?



This is a matter for the Gardai and the regulator and has got nothing at all to do with deregulation of the number of taxi licences. A red herring, in other words. I've been in s**t taxis before deregulation.

you dont get the point here ninga .your first quote there is that its all self interest .of course it is .i have the right to protest to try and protect my income as any other profession ie nurses,dublin bus ,airport traffic controllers etc .thats what a democracy is .
yes there was people with six figure loans and they still have them and they worked long hours to pay these loans but the trade was there and before someone starts .it was,nt their fault the amount of taxis that were on the road they bought into what was a "closed shop" of cartels where you had bookies, business men ,crooks,owning three and four plates and renting them out for 500 pounds aweek .i was one of those "cosys"paying 200 punts rent for twelve hour shifts .in some s#itty car
degregulation was handled all wrong and i keep going over old stuff here but .if the government at the time of dereg had of said right so you want to own a taxi .then this requires you to have a spotless criminal record ,have a decent knowleage of the city or county you are to work a car of a certain year ,size etc . but they did,nt they opened the gates and its only now that their mistakes are coming to fore . horse and stable door . THATS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT the hate taxi driver brigade will always be there ,and if yous are happy with the service now then so be it .but standards are dropping ,forget about those nice new cars you see they are new guys after investing the big loan but time will tell when they cant change the car because they cant earn what they thought

lost marbles

PRND wrote: »

I think the majority of taxi drivers are on the side of the public. Full time and part time. Only a few bad apples let the rest down.

But it seems that drivers are calling for a cap on licenses to protect their own income. The reasons are being put forward are things like keeping standards high, saving poor people from squandering their redundancy money and not casuing traffic jams.

Why should someone who retires as a lorry job in six months from now not become a taxi driver when he knows all the roads in Dublin, is of good character and has a good car to turn into a taxi?

you can not cap the amount of licences its the way that these liceneces are been given out thats the problem yes by all means become a taxi driver no prob but lets tighten up the whole system where no proper background checks are made .people with very little driving experience ,no real knowleage of the area they are to work its four years since the regulater was put in office and it was welcomed by the majority of drivers but to date little has been done apart from an id card and telling the public to "know before you go"

uma

There are 6.749 people on the list for spsv licence mostly from Dublin.The process now takes on average 14 months.

Those who start next week made the decision to become a taxi driver a long time ago so to suggest that there is lots of money in the game otherwise people wouldnt come into it ar ill informed.

People hail and get out of taxis on the likes of wexford st as is their right as thats where most of the pubs/clubs they are going to are on.The same guy who criticises this wants a Taxi as soon as he walks out of whelans.Taxis ARE allowed to stop for customers on the road unless it is in a very dangerous position,what are they supposed to do tell people they will pick them up 900 yards away ?if parking was removed there would be space for them to pull in as in daytime hours.

There is also the arguement that having way too many taxis roaming around our cities needlessly without work increases traffic and pollution.

HydeRoad

I greatly fear that it suits some people to flood Dublin with taxis, regardless of environmental, traffic, or other considerations, or the considerations of working mens' livelihoods. There was a bitter taxi strike a few years ago, during which a predictably select band of taxi drivers did not make a very good show of themselves in the media (while a large number of taxi drivers sat at home angry but dissillusioned by the antics of their 'comrades' on the tv screens). Chickens come home to roost, and it is reasonably safe to predict there will never be a taxi strike in Dublin again, in the knowledge that a large number of the new breed of cheap and cheerful taxi drivers will respect no picket line. Wouldn't that suit a few people?

It's a pity for all those quiet majority of taxi drivers who provided a service without making a fuss, who just wanted to pay the mortgage at the end of the month. It's less of a pity for that 'old school' of taxi driver who liked to have the business sown up among a select few, out of greed, which caused a lot of the problems in the first place. But you can't blame the greed of the few on everyone.

Most of all though, it's a pity for the customer, because at the end of the day, if the taxi driving profession becomes just another low paid bargain basement job, the decent drivers will fall away from it, and the service quality will deteriorate rapidly, as is already obvious. More taxis definitely does not mean better service.

P.S. I'm a taxi driver. I circled the city for four hours on Wednesday afternoon. I got one €10.80 fare in four hours. Four hours of driving (since all the ranks were full) probably cost me that in fuel. Pay the mortgage with that!

Saint Patrick

As a newie taxi driver what streets in Dublin would you recommend to stay away from and how dangerous is Dublin for a taxi driver

mikemac

Saint Patrick wrote: »

As a newie taxi driver what streets in Dublin would you recommend to stay away from and how dangerous is Dublin for a taxi driver

I'm not a driver but I recently book on crime, possibly by Paul Williams and it mentioned some drivers refuse fares to Dunsink Lane, Finglas. You can see why.

On the other hand, it mentioned drivers buying diesel out there too from some site. Not sure what the scam was but it was been monitored anyway.

Oh, the contradiction!

AlekSmart

As Hyde Road`s figures graphically illustrate,the Taxi market simply is not viable as a supportive environment in which to establish a "Job".

That explains why since deregulation it has become a part-time or hobbyists environment.

For all of the OTR`s glossy PR output,this will do nothing for establishing or maintaining a "Quality" service level in any way.

Indeed,as Hyde Road alludes to,the onset of recession will start to make people conscious of how expensive Taxi Fare is.
One of the results of this will be a migration from the Taxi to new and improved Public Bus Services...It may not be nice but it will be affordable !!

Volvoboy

micmclo wrote: »

I'm not a driver but I recently book on crime, possibly by Paul Williams and it mentioned some drivers refuse fares to Dunsink Lane, Finglas. You can see why.

On the other hand, it mentioned drivers buying diesel out there too from some site. Not sure what the scam was but it was been monitored anyway.

Oh, the contradiction!

Dunsink Lane is gone, well selling bogey Diesel is anyway, i take it the book was ''The Outsiders''.



As far as taxi driving goes, i'm getting up and going taxiing, not because i listened to the pub talk of ''get €1200 for the weeked work'' because i wanted to be a taxi driver, even pre de-reg i still would of become one either cosying or fork out the £80,000 punt for one, granted most sceptics would argue of course ya would VB given the current state of things, but i would.

Personally i think that licence fees should be risen to €25000 to somewhat even out the rate of licences being issued, only on the last review the Hackney and Limo licences have risen from €250 to €1000 while W/C taxis and taxi licences havent changed.



-VB-

mikemac

Volvoboy wrote: »

Dunsink Lane is gone, well selling bogey Diesel is anyway, i take it the book was ''The Outsiders''.

You sir, are correct. It was 'The Outsiders''. I just remembered it was by a Sunday World journalist and I thought it Paul Williams as a large part of the book was on crime

PRND

Volvo, you are different to most in that you are calling for the price to rise before you get into it. Most guys here who say they are taxi drivers seem to say that all new entrants should be discouraged / stopped yet leave them as they are.

What about increasing the license to ?25k and making all drivers who have paid less than that pay the difference between their initial amount paid and the new fee.

In relation to AlekSmart, I think if they reduced taxi fares to 60% of their current level, people would use them more. The drivers would be busier and therefore happier.

lost marbles

PRND wrote: »

Volvo, you are different to most in that you are calling for the price to rise before you get into it. Most guys here who say they are taxi drivers seem to say that all new entrants should be discouraged / stopped yet leave them as they are.

What about increasing the license to ?25k and making all drivers who have paid less than that pay the difference between their initial amount paid and the new fee.

In relation to AlekSmart, I think if they reduced taxi fares to 60% of their current level, people would use them more. The drivers would be busier and therefore happier.

ah sure why not ! let all taxi drivers out there fork out not another 18k how about lets say a nice round 50k .that will sort out the men from the boys .
can you explain what you mean by that last statement ?or are you just throwing out drivel as a wind up ?
if its drivel you want then ive a better plan ,lets do what the big stores do have "loss leaders "say every second fare the passenger gets whats on the meter .sure then the taxi ranks would be overcrowded and we,ed have the public giving out yet again
the broadband on mars must be very good because your not posting from this planet

lost marbles

Saint Patrick wrote: »

As a newie taxi driver what streets in Dublin would you recommend to stay away from and how dangerous is Dublin for a taxi driver

its not the areas or streets you have to look out for ,as there is good and bad in every area its the passenger you have to watch .unfortunately you only have a couple of seconds to size up a passenger before they get in the car .you might pick up the guy in the suit who turns out to be coked out of his head and wants to take on the world ,or the guy in the tracksuit who could,nt be any nicer .its the nature of the beast being a taxi driver .
happy taxiing welcome to our world

Ham'nd'egger

PRND wrote: »

Volvo, you are different to most in that you are calling for the price to rise before you get into it. Most guys here who say they are taxi drivers seem to say that all new entrants should be discouraged / stopped yet leave them as they are.

What about increasing the license to ?25k and making all drivers who have paid less than that pay the difference between their initial amount paid and the new fee.

In relation to AlekSmart, I think if they reduced taxi fares to 60% of their current level, people would use them more. The drivers would be busier and therefore happier.

So you are proposing that

• The cost of a plate and entry into the trade is quadrupled, with retro charges to be levied on all plate.
• Fares are cut by over half. Ones ability to cover costs and earn money will be cut to make people want to use them more in an attempt to make more money.

While increasing the cost of a plate would do a lot to phase out some of the part time and fly by night drivers do know just how daft that fare reduction proposal is, do you?

Cutting the income one can earn just cuts the amount of service providers in any industry, no matter what it is. For a system like this to balance out fiscally, a driver would need to double his time with a fare in the car just to uphold his current income levels, of which I note that it is by no means guaranteed to happen.

PRND

]No, Volvoboy is proposing that the cost of a plate go up to €25k. Alot of drivers on here are calling for other barriers to entry. My point is that it is all well and good to call for these barriers once you are in the industry but not expect them to be imposed on yourself.

If new entrants have such a barrier, why should the existing not have the same? The money could be used to refund those drivers who paid £80k. Have everyone, old and new, having paid €25k.

Cutting the income one can earn just cuts the amount of service providers in any industry

Is this not what you have been calling for all along?

If it costs 4 people €8 to go to Ranelagh from St. Stephen's Green on the Luas, would you prefer to sit in the SSG rank for 30 minutes while nothing is happening or else have a lower fare structure that you could earn that €8 by taking them up there? It would currently cost €7.10 before the wheel had turned in a taxi so people are going to take the Luas.

You need to compete with other forms of tranpsort so competitive pricing might be a start.

Ham'nd'egger

PRND wrote: »

]No, Volvoboy is proposing that the cost of a plate go up to €25k. Alot of drivers on here are calling for other barriers to entry. My point is that it is all well and good to call for these barriers once you are in the industry but not expect them to be imposed on yourself.

If new entrants have such a barrier, why should the existing not have the same? The money could be used to refund those drivers who paid £80k. Have everyone, old and new, having paid €25k.



Is this not what you have been calling for all along?

If it costs 4 people €8 to go to Ranelagh from St. Stephen's Green on the Luas, would you prefer to sit in the SSG rank for 30 minutes while nothing is happening or else have a lower fare structure that you could earn that €8 by taking them up there? It would currently cost €7.10 before the wheel had turned in a taxi so people are going to take the Luas.

You need to compete with other forms of tranpsort so competitive pricing might be a start.

Making it harder (within reason) to enter any trade usually sorts out the men from the boy, so to speak; I have no difficulty with that whatsoever and it should provide for a better skill amongst drivers over time.

Your idea about cutting fares though, is plain daft. It is not a production article where there is economies of scale to help bring down your running costs. There is a finite amount of people/potential customers with potentially infinite service provider to service them. Cutting the price of the service available is not essentially guaranteed to increase business, while that business one has will pay less. As such, you are cutting your income with no replacement income to cover you, and all for longer hours.

PRND

Would a higher turnover not lead to increased profits? Of course your percentage profit per € would be less but with more time spent earning rather than cruising round looking for work or sitting on ranks then you would take home more net.

It would be interesting to see how many people posting on here see the cost of Dublin taxis as a barrier to using them.

Also, a series of fixed fares would be good. People tend to take the aircoach as they know how much it is going to cost them regardless. If I knew a taxi from Ranelagh to the airport was going to cost €20, no matter what, then I would definitely take that instead of walking across Appian Way to Upper Leeson St. to wait for the Aircoach.

Dub13

PRND wrote: »

Also, a series of fixed fares would be good. People tend to take the aircoach as they know how much it is going to cost them regardless. If I knew a taxi from Ranelagh to the airport was going to cost €20, no matter what, then I would definitely take that instead of walking across Appian Way to Upper Leeson St. to wait for the Aircoach.

I always taught this was a good idea like they have in New York.It should be a set fair from the Airport to anywhere between the canal's,this would also help stop people been ripped off.

HydeRoad

I am a great believer in the Ben Dunne philosophy, getting prices DOWN, encouraging business, encouraging greater circulation of available money, and giving the ordinary punter something into the bargain.

Two years ago, as a taxi driver, my fuel costs, to take one factor, were roughly €10 for every €100 earned. There has been one price increase in that time, but in the same period, fuel has gone from roughly €1 a litre, to €1.20 or €1.25 a litre. So my fuel costs having gone to €12, my earnings, even with one price rise, have not kept pace. The fuel issue is one that is going to become very marked in the coming years, for EVERYONE, not just taxi drivers. Yet it is roundly ignored. We simply cannot go on paying €1.20 for a litre of fuel. The €2 and €3 litres are coming.

Now we have a situation where there are SO many taxis, that taxis cannot move, there is no rank space, and drivers are lucky to pick up one fare an hour. There IS a reasonable maximum number of taxis that this city can accommodate. It is based on population, and on street space. An open market policy can only work so far. It is ridiculous to have 16,000 taxis and growing, and only 79 city taxi ranks.

Dropping prices to encourage more users is commendable. But a taxi driver has to stay afloat. I want to upgrade my car this year. Due to the upcoming nine year rule, my seven year old Ford car is practically unsaleable, despite it being a fine, reliable machine. I will get minimal trade in on it, and have to pay €10,000 for a similar model, five years old. That's a speculation of €4,000 a year just for a car to drive, allowing for the trade in. My mortgage is €16,000 a year at the moment.

So I need €20,000 just to pay my mortgage, and pay for a car. That's €10 an hour, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, AFTER fuel. Nothing left. Not even counting insurance (€2,000), bills, or anything. Now I might get €15 an hour during the day if I'm lucky, or if I'm unlucky, I'll get one €10.80 fare in a four hour period. On two weekend nights, I'll average €30-€40 an hour between 12am and 4am, but not before or after. I'll get zilch on a weekday night. If I get a radio into the car, I might get an airport run, but the airport fare pays for the radio rental, and I'm no further on.

Prices could come down, to encourage business. I don't see that ever happening, because we live in a greedy country, inspired by the rotten example from the top. But the present numbers of taxis will not allow it to happen anyway. Prices will be kept high, the more taxis there are, and they will go up further as the oil prices really hit.

It's unsustainable. It's a ship all at sea, with nobody's hand on the rudder. Like most issues in this country.

Ham'nd'egger

PRND wrote: »

Also, a series of fixed fares would be good. People tend to take the aircoach as they know how much it is going to cost them regardless. If I knew a taxi from Ranelagh to the airport was going to cost €20, no matter what, then I would definitely take that instead of walking across Appian Way to Upper Leeson St. to wait for the Aircoach.

Fixed fares to certain set locations would be a great idea for both driver and passenger; it would cut out arguments and would put everybody on a level keel. Indeed, most of the the provincial towns had a fixed fare agreed by all drivers, that way every trip would be €x, except for some longer or more obscure trips. However, that idea is not longer possible as the Taxi Regulator, has banned fixed fares unless they are agreed in writing; one example of how rules ruin it for everybody.

Spook_ie

PRND wrote: »

In relation to AlekSmart, I think if they reduced taxi fares to 60% of their current level, people would use them more. The drivers would be busier and therefore happier.

Ah go on why stop there? we could pay you to get in the car and then give you more money the further we travel.

It's fairly pointless arguing any of the points being made on here between customers and taxi drivers because the customer wants to go as far as they can, in the poshest motor they can for as little as they can... the taxi drivers points are to go as short as they can, for as much as they can get, at as little cost....the two will never agree.

Spook_ie

PRND wrote: »

]
If it costs 4 people €8 to go to Ranelagh from St. Stephen's Green on the Luas, would you prefer to sit in the SSG rank for 30 minutes while nothing is happening or else have a lower fare structure that you could earn that €8 by taking them up there? It would currently cost €7.10 before the wheel had turned in a taxi so people are going to take the Luas.

You need to compete with other forms of tranpsort so competitive pricing might be a start.

Well when the LUAS goes from door to door, be sure to let me know as I'll start using it myself..

the_syco

It depends if I know where I'm going. If I do, any taxi will do. If not, I get an old (40+) Irish driver driving a piece of sh|t. Why? Cos 8 out of 10 times, he'll know the place that I say. And the 2 out of 10 times that they don't, they say they don't, but have an idea of where it is. One or two more questions, and they'll know where it's located.

The blacks will know the local routes, but not every sh|thole in Dublin. On the one hand, he may only be over here a few months/years, so I don't blame him for not knowing all of Dublin, but on the other hand, if his trade is to take people to X part of Dublin, and he's working in Dublin, he should know where the place is: it's his job to know.

PRND

All the customer wants is value. Start providing that either by collective driver behaviour or regulator innovation and there will not be so many cars sitting on ranks, doing nothing. I think the reduction of fares is a step in the right direction in this regard. Better trained drivers is another. Better cars is a third. The great travelling public WANT to take more taxis. The taxi drivers WANT to drive more fares. Nevertheless the commuter trains, trams, buses are crowded beyond safe levels and taxis are queued round the corner on ranks.

Ham'nd'egger

PRND wrote: »

All the customer wants is value. Start providing that either by collective driver behaviour or regulator innovation and there will not be so many cars sitting on ranks, doing nothing. I think the reduction of fares is a step in the right direction in this regard. Better trained drivers is another. Better cars is a third. The great travelling public WANT to take more taxis. The taxi drivers WANT to drive more fares. Nevertheless the commuter trains, trams, buses are crowded beyond safe levels and taxis are queued round the corner on ranks.

Drivers want to make more money and make a better living at the end of the day. I don't know how many taxis you use but by the sounds of some of the points you are making, you either don't use many or you begrudge using them when and if you do (Your €20 from Baggot Street to the Airport shows just how long that was ). How and ever you think it, cutting fares will NOT result in increased income levels for drivers. More people in the car will increase income levels, drastically lowering how much they are paying will just serve to lower it.

PRND

I use them when there is no alternative. I'd love to use them all the time though. I'd love to take the train to Heuston and hop in a cab to Ranelagh instead of getting on the Luas to O'Connell St. and onto the bus. I'd love to take a cab home on a Saturday night from town instead of deciding that it's close enough to walk. When the new public transport initiatives come on stream, much fewer people will use taxis but I think if they were cost effective then they would!

Ham'nd'egger

PRND wrote: »

I use them when there is no alternative. I'd love to use them all the time though. I'd love to take the train to Heuston and hop in a cab to Ranelagh instead of getting on the Luas to O'Connell St. and onto the bus. I'd love to take a cab home on a Saturday night from town instead of deciding that it's close enough to walk. When the new public transport initiatives come on stream, much fewer people will use taxis but I think if they were cost effective then they would!

Ah, I see now; your just too frugal to use them more often. In that case, stick to the bus if you feel it's cheaper. In your situation, I would too.

PRND

Well I'd say I earn less than your average taxi driver but I'd think many people are in a similar boat.

Maybe it's the failings of taxi drivers to know their customer has led to this "ridiculous" situation.

Spook_ie

PRND wrote: »

Well I'd say I earn less than your average taxi driver but I'd think many people are in a similar boat.

Maybe it's the failings of taxi drivers to know their customer has led to this "ridiculous" situation.

And at the risk of incurring people's wrath just how much do you think the average taxi driver has left to spend on himself and his family and the normal outgoings at the end of the week ( please note that full time taxi drivers though we pay PRSI are NOT allowed

Jobseekers Benefit
Illness Benefit
Health and Safety Benefit
Invalidity Pension
State Pension (Transition)
Treatment Benefit
Carer's Benefit

and sensible people would put some monies away each week to cover for these that PAYE people don't have to...

PRND

I have no idea how much a full time driver earns. ?1,500 gross maybe? ?300 a day, 5 days a week?

Not having to pay tax at the same rate as everyone else is like an income in itself.