Milk

hardtrainer

Just a couple of things stand out here. The argument that humans are not supposed to drink cows milk past infancy is ridiculous. In western europe we've been doing it for thousands of years. Plenty of time to evolve and evolve we have. Look at any of the population genetics studies (many done right here in ireland) which show that we're well adapted to produce lactase into adulthood and not just in pitiful amounts either. We are adapted to use dairy as an ongoing source of nutrients. Fact.

On a worldwide point of view, of course, some populations have far greater levels of lactose intolerance than others. Nowhere is it 100%. Nowhere. It tops out at about 70-80%.

Severe dairy allergy (which is to milk protein) is not very common in Ireland or worldwide. Allergy to Soy is more prevalent both here and worldwide. Mild dairy intolerance is common enough but doesn't depend on how much you drink (i.e. symptoms don't escalate if you drink 1 litre versus 10ml) and the reaction in mucus membranes (including respiratory) is greatly reduced with lowered fat content (fats coat mucus membranes...great for spreading flavous around your mouth..why butter is added to sauces etc...bad for irritating mucus membranes sensititive to milk proteins) so skimmed milk has zero effects with me.

As for calcium. Dairy is still the single best source for people of european descent. I was part of a study group over 4 years looking at dairy intake and bone density. It was the reason I began drinking milk again after an 8 year break in dairy consumption. It works, thats all I'm saying.

Look at Clin Exp Allergy. 2007 May;37(5):627-30. for more information on dairy and allergies, in particularl, the benefits of live milk (unpasteurised milk).

With respect to Vegan diets. There is nothing in milk that cannot be gotten from other sources, milk is just very convenient. It's easy to get large amounts of protein in the diet if you eat a lot of nuts, beans and pulses and the quality of the protein is extremely high, much higher than much of the meat consumed in ireland.


I'm with G'em, over reliance on dairy ain't good (as with any food) but it is not bad for you and it certainly won't kill you. The milk challenge thing is ridiculous and was all part of a massive drive in the US to portray milk as unnatural (by the soy industry, who suddenly realised selling soy as human food made much more money than selling it as animal feed). Eating 4 of 5 different forms of a bean which our ancestors would never ever have seen, let alone tasted, is hardly natural in that respect either! And besides, drinking vast quantites of any liquid is very dangerous (unless it's isotonic) and can lead to hyponatremia as a result of water intoxication. About 15 litres in one day is the max, but it's a combination of volume and time that is the killer (literally in some cases). Almost 4 litres in 30 mins is not good. It has nothing to do with your body rejecting milk.

Tar.Aldarion

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Yes protein is easy to get from almost anything, even low protein sources. Enough protein isn't that easy however (granted "enough" is subjective, just like "easy"). Then you have to take into account bioavailability, and how complete it is etc.

Well, everything is subjective, that discussion would be a bit pointless.
There are a huge variety of sources of full protein and all I am saying isit is not hard to obtain equally as good amounts and better amounts of protein in other foods.

I have a lot of respect for vegetarians, and I've nothing against vegans apart from a lack of understanding. I respect that they've made a personal choice, but like any diet defined purely on the exclusion of certain foods I don't think a vegan diet is very healthy by default (I mean you could eat sugar sandwiches, pasta and white rice all the time and call yourself a vegan!). Within the boundaries of that diet there's potential to make it very healthy indeed. Barry Sears book: The Soy Zone would likely illustrate that very well.

But then there is always the risk of hypothyroidism with too much soy.

There is always a risk of bad effects with too much of a food, I wouldn't advise relying on anything too much.

Edwardius

hardtrainer wrote: »

With respect to Vegan diets. There is nothing in milk that cannot be gotten from other sources, milk is just very convenient. It's easy to get large amounts of protein in the diet if you eat a lot of nuts, beans and pulses and the quality of the protein is extremely high, much higher than much of the meat consumed in ireland.

Without seeming picky, i'd like to see what you define as the "quality" of a protein source. Does it pertain to bioavailability? What would you classify as "Much of the meat consumed in Ireland"? I'm sure eating lentils etc for protein might have advantages over dodgy sausages and kebab meat but the animal products people here refer to when speaking about healtful omnivorous diets include lean red meat, fish and poultry. It's possible that a vegan diet is better than what most people eat in ireland seeing as most of it is packaged garbage, but that doesn't mean that a vegan diet is the be all and end all of good nutrition. A little off topic but it'd be good to see these points clarified.

As for milk, just because it has calcium, doesn't mean you'll automatically absorb it regardless of what else you put in your gob. Milk can be good for bones if a favourable acid balance is present, as mentioned previously (eat a pile o' veg) but if you drink litres of the stuff a day in the presence of starchy foods, you'll be working insulin production into overtime and you'll piss that calcium right out along with leeching calcium from your bones (to neutralise the acidic conditions). The important thing is to keep a balanced diet, but you knew that already, right?

ApeXaviour

Hardtrainer... I take much of what you say in good faith. And I thank you for your contribution. But like yourself, a couple of things stand out.

hardtrainer wrote: »

With respect to Vegan diets. There is nothing in milk that cannot be gotten from other sources, milk is just very convenient. It's easy to get large amounts of protein in the diet if you eat a lot of nuts, beans and pulses and the quality of the protein is extremely high, much higher than much of the meat consumed in ireland.

Like ed, I wonder how you define quality. Yes there are crappy meats out there (frankfurters, kebab meat).
Lean red meat, poultry, eggs, fish, dairy and soy are the only high biological value proteins. i.e. proteins made up of all the required amino acids (ones your body cannot produce by itself). Pulses, nuts etc. are are of low biological value. Not only that but as you said yourself, they are common allergens, due to the concentration of lectins in them. In terms of bioavailability, eggs certainly come first with (I'm pretty sure) poultry and lean meats coming after.

hardtrainer wrote: »

The milk challenge thing is ridiculous and was all part of a massive drive in the US to portray milk as unnatural (by the soy industry, who suddenly realised selling soy as human food made much more money than selling it as animal feed).

I doubt it's that as much as a boyish schoolyard challenge to see people puke their ring up. Also in the US I'd imagine the dairy industry have a bit more sway than the soy industry. Think USDA (with their gross unresearched economically sanctioned food pyramid lies) and which one is home produced.

hardtrainer wrote: »

Eating 4 of 5 different forms of a bean which our ancestors would never ever have seen, let alone tasted, is hardly natural in that respect either!

Agree absolutely.

hardtrainer wrote: »

And besides, drinking vast quantites of any liquid is very dangerous (unless it's isotonic) and can lead to hyponatremia as a result of water intoxication.

This has been covered already. Drinking 3.8 litres of water, juice etc. in one hour, while not beneficial, is certainly doable. Drinking that same amount of milk (and keeping it inside you) is impossible for the vast majority; even for those genetically modified north Europeans among us.

hardtrainer wrote: »

It has nothing to do with your body rejecting milk.

It absolutely does, more specifically the large quantities of lactose.

hardtrainer

Ah bioavailable protein. One of the great buzz words of the nutrition industry's marketing machine. Mixing your pulses, grains and beans give you a great profile of amino acids and a very high quality protein (in absolute terms...remember, many of these can be stored for long periods as dry goods without any appreciable decrease in protein quality). I'm not advocating a vegan diet, I couldn't live (sanely) without my meat. While we're talking about meat. Yes, meat in ireland can be fantastic quality, but buying cheap meat gives you poor protein. Cheap chicken from dunnes and tescos!! Don't think you're getting 'typical nutritional values' from that stuff, you're not.

Before I get off the topic of bioavailability of protein. What protein has been shown again and again to be the most 'available'? Whey protein. Where does whey come from? Milk.

I'm not now, nor have I ever said that you should drink gallons of milk per day. Everything in moderation. However, milk is not bad for you.

This claim that milk being acidic (it's only weakly acidic BTW) forces your body to draw calcium for your bones to neutralise it, is really poor science. Firstly, while milk is acidic it is also a buffer (hence it being weakly acidic). A quick trawl of the literature shows a very striking concensus, adults with lactose intolerance are at greater risk of osteoporosis because of reduced dairy intake. I've counted more than 20 studies that confirm this finding. What does that say to you? Eating dairy protects you against osteoporosis.

If you eat excessive dairy (we're talking really excessive) then you can develop problems associated with high calcium in the diet, but this is very rare and cofactors are required.

ApeXaviour, your assertion that Dairy is homegrown in the US and soy is not really makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. The value of soy bean crop in the US in just one year (2003/2204) was $18 billion, not a million miles away from the $26 billion in milk production.

Drinking 3.8 litres of milk and vomiting has nothing to do with the body rejecting lactose. Thats such an absurd idea I don't know how to respond to it. It's simply that milk is food, as it it requires more digestion that water or juice etc (remember it contains fats, protein and sugars) so the stomach gets full quickly and the volume is the deciding factor in vomiting.

I don't think anyone here is advocating a diet of 100% dairy. I am not saying meat is bad. Balance is crucial. That doesn't mean milk is bad for you. The facts just don't support that idea, but the soy industry has done a very good job in the US, convincing people that dairy is the source of all evil.

samsamson

Can anybody give me some information on raw milk in this country?

I know it's illegal in some states in the USA, but I'm not sure what its status is here. I'd love to try some

olaola

samsamson wrote: »

Can anybody give me some information on raw milk in this country?

I know it's illegal in some states in the USA, but I'm not sure what its status is here. I'd love to try some

I'm sure if you sniffed out some farmer they would sell it to you.

This is quite interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/humanbody/truthaboutfood/slim/calcium.shtml

"In our study we tested our group on both diets. Week one was a diet high in calcium (2000mg) and week two a low calcium diet (500mg). Crucially, both diets had an identical calorific content and were calculated to have the same fat content.

Amazingly on the high dairy calcium diet twice the percentage of fat our subjects ate came out in their stools to when they were on the low calcium diet."

samsamson

samsamson wrote: »

Can anybody give me some information on raw milk in this country?

I know it's illegal in some states in the USA, but I'm not sure what its status is here. I'd love to try some

I really can't fathom this interest. When I was little everyone milked their own.
It is just milk where you can still taste the cow. I don't know anyone who prefers it to pasturized, and even people who don't mind it prefer to buy the other at this time of year. Because it stinks and tastes of Silage.
Generally you don't give it to people from non-farming backgrounds, as their immune systems aren't used to it. So its likely to make them sick.


American milk is awful because it comes from for want of a better term "Battery Cows".

hardtrainer

Samsamson,
Raw milk is prohibited for sale in Ireland, though you can obtain it sometimes directly from the farmer. There's a whole host of benefits associated with raw milk, but also some potential for infection.

olaola, there are lots more studies that show the same thing, that high calcium from dairy reduces the amount of fat absorbed in the intestines, although the exact mechanism is unknown.

McGinty

Personally I use both milk (low fat) in my tea, eat cheese, yogurt and butter, but I use soya milk in my cereal and also eat soya custard (which I love) and soya yogurts/deserts, I feel I get the best of both worlds. Everything in moderation really.

green123

to answer the op

McGinty wrote: »

Everything in moderation really.

and part of a balanced diet milk is not bad for you

end of thread

Sugar Drunk

I love cheese, yogurts and chocolate so I can't say I don't like milk but I do not drink milk. The way I look at it milk from a cow was by nature designed for calves to drink I just don't think its natural for people to drink it.
I had it poured into me by the parents when I was younger and feel much better health wise now that I don't drink it.