Milk

Lockstep

I hear so much stuff these days about how bad milk is, but seeing as it's usually people trying to turn me vegan I figured I might get some good feedback here.

Is milk actually bad for you? I was always taught it was good for me and that it was filled with vitamens and calcium, so I drank it by the bucketload.

Still love it, I take Light/semi skilled milk as I think it tastes slightly better if that makes any difference

ApeXaviour

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I hear so much stuff these days about how bad milk is, but seeing as it's usually people trying to turn me vegan I figured I might get some good feedback here.

Is milk actually bad for you?

Unfortunately (and I really mean unfortunately as I love milk/cheese/yogurt etc), as best as we can tell from unbiased sources, it is. As a species we've just not evolved to deal with it. I'm going to break it down to a few points.

Lactose: the carbohydrate in milk. It's broken down by the enzyme lactase. As you grow from being a baby you produce less and less of this. North europeans, having been dairy farmers the longest, have managed to develop a slightly greater ability to produce lactase later in life. So we only have about 5% lactose intolerance. This shoots up to 70% in asia, and practically 100% of native north american adults are lactose intolerant. Still though, just because you're not lactose intolerant, it doesn't mean you can deal with it very well. An american friend of mine introduced me to the "milk challenge", which requires one to drink 1 gallon (american gallon so bout 3.8litres) of milk in one hour. Let's just say it gets very messy, and makes it very obvious we weren't built to survive off milk.

Dairy allergy: seperate from lactose intolerance, this is what most people refer to I think when they talk of the hazards of milk. I'll be anecdotal: If you're one of those people who feel like you almost have a constant cold. Drippy nose since childhood. Maybe you have asthma too? My friend was like this, he just accepted it. One day he read something and decided to go off dairy. Within a few weeks his symptoms just went. He never has to blow his nose anymore. He went from using his inhalor twice a day to about once a week. This is stupidly common and undiagnosed. Dairy products will usually exacerbate most allergies.
I myself even notice if I eat a lot of dairy I get stuffy. So I try keep it to a minimum.

Glycemic Load: While dairy products technically have a low glycemic index, they are highly insulinotropic. This means milk/cheese/yogurt have an insulin index similar to that of white bread! And so are correlated with a variety of health issues, including type 1 diabetes, prostate cancer, multiple sclerosis, and crohn’s disease. It doesn't make life any easier for those with type 2 diabetes either.

Calcium: Yes, milk is chock full of calcium. Then why is it that the countries where milk is drank (US, Western Europe) the most, also have the highest incidences of osteoporosis? Okay, so correlation is not causation, there are probably numerous factors, yet one can't help but be suspicious.
Let's approach this scientifically: contrary to common thought, milk is actually acidic and (unlike acidic fruits) reports to your kidneys as acidic (iirc 5.2 pH). This means your kidneys have to actually donate calcium to your bloodstream to neutralise its pH. In the end, it is not a good source of calcium.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I was always taught it was good for me and that it was filled with vitamens and calcium, so I drank it by the bucketload.

Don't underestimate the propaganda power the dairy industry has, I'm serious...

Look at the food pyramid (that thing that said you should eat lots of bread and rice but very little fish, eggs or red meat :rolleyes: ). Guess who created that? The US Dept of Agriculture. Do you really think their primary motive is the health of their nation?

My supervisor, during one of our debates, made a point that the average height of the chinese went up by such and such an amount after the introduction of milk. If one has a malnourished diet (low protein in this case) then milk will definitely be an improvement. I honestly think vegans would benefit from a little dairy now and then. But for the rest of us, dairy, especially in any kind of excess, is certainly something we can do without.

Lockstep

Yeah, the thing is I was caught between pro milk propaghanda(the establishment) and the anti milk( mostly vegans)

I went with the pro as I have the usual thing of putting my faith in the established order

Parnassia

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I honestly think vegans would benefit from a little dairy now and then. But for the rest of us, dairy, especially in any kind of excess, is certainly something we can do without.

Just wondering why you think vegans would benefit from dairy? You've said it's not a good source of calcium. Is it for B12 or D that you would recommend it?

Saruman

I think there was some sarcasm in ApeXaviour's post

I would not be the best at handling milk now. I tend to use a lot of powdered milk these days. I only buy real milk if i want to make a white Russian or something and then its low fat.

Macha

Is it not true that the fat in dairy products attaches onto the calcium and they both go through you? So in fact non-dairy souces of calcium are absorbed better?

Just something that is rolling around in my head...

ApeXaviour

Just wondering why you think vegans would benefit from dairy? You've said it's not a good source of calcium. Is it for B12 or D that you would recommend it?

Neither. I thought I alluded to it when I mentioned the chinese. I say vegans would benefit from dairy, merely because they would usually be quite deficient in their protein intake. Most dairy products (not including cream or butter) are actually a really good source of protein (see whey protein). For the rest of us with less restrictive diets, the pros don't outweigh the cons.

taconnol wrote: »

Is it not true that the fat in dairy products attaches onto the calcium and they both go through you?

Can't say I've ever heard it if it is true

taconnol wrote: »

So in fact non-dairy souces of calcium are absorbed better?

They are indeed.

rubadub

taconnol wrote: »

Is it not true that the fat in dairy products attaches onto the calcium and they both go through you? So in fact non-dairy souces of calcium are absorbed better?

Just something that is rolling around in my head...

I have heard the calcium in the milk will bond with other fats in your system, so can result in less calories being absorbed.

In the supermarkets there are little bottles with calcium rich dairy product and it is says it is for weight loss, while not saying how they do it. Similar to little pots of stuff with benecifial bacteria.

As a species we've just not evolved to deal with it.

Yes, drinking human milk as an adult would be a better option. Fundamentally it does seem odd to drink a fluid "designed" to be ingested to aid the development of the young of another species.

Jesus Wept

ApeXaviour wrote: »

An american friend of mine introduced me to the "milk challenge", which requires one to drink 1 gallon (american gallon so bout 3.8litres) of milk in one hour. Let's just say it gets very messy, and makes it very obvious we weren't built to survive off milk.

Drink 3.8 litres of anything in an hour and it's going to get messy.
I don't understand the point.

ApeXaviour

The-Rigger wrote: »

I don't understand the point.

Clearly...

When I say messy I don't mean just very unpleasant, as would be the case for say coke. I've happily drank 2L of water before in 10 mins, just because I was parched, with no side effects. 3.8L in an hour, while not incredibly nice, is certainly doable.

With milk, you simply cannot produce enough lactase to deal with anywhere near that amount. In or around the half hour mark, people usually are evacuating themselves violently from both ends.

rubadub wrote:

Yes, drinking human milk as an adult would be a better option.

I suppose... though the lactose problem would still be there.

rubadub

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I suppose... though the lactose problem would still be there.

There is even more lactose in human milk. I was taking the piss about the human milk, people take milk for granted since they grew up with it. If nobody tradtitionally drank it and somebody posted here saying "I have a great new drink to try, you know those cow animals you see in fields, well you sqeeze their udders and out comes this fluid, full of homrones, nutrients etc which help their young develop, well it tastes great when mixed with museli". It would be kicked to the recycle bin and the person would be banned!

ApeXaviour

Well the same can be said about a lot of things. Wheat is like grass seed. Who was the first person to say "ooh look what that chicken just pooped, I think I'll eat that". What's worse than milk is when you've let bacteria grow in it, i.e. cheese/yogurt. I love blue cheese, but if I ever encounter an odour like that anywhere else I recoil.

Maggots are very nutritious, and a good source of protein. A lot of places in africa and asia they eat certain insects, other cultures dine on the human placenta. It's all cultural familiarity. At least human derived milk is actually produced specifically for humans to consume...

In the end it's all protein, carbohydrate, fat and trace minerals etc.

Jesus Wept

So do you recommend cutting Dairy totally out of ones diet?

ApeXaviour

Well it depends on the individual, it goes with out saying if you've dairy allergy symptoms...
For most people, if you get enough dietry protein elsewhere, and the net pH in your diet is basic (i.e. you eat a lot of fruit and veg) then yes, IMO you'd be better off cutting it out.

Me... I find it very difficult to cut out entirely because I love it so much. So I've settled for reducing it severely. My vices consist of a little bit of Gruyère Reserve, or pyrenean sheep cheeses my basque friend introduced to me (you haven't lived until you've tried cheese like this)

PrettyInPunk

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Unfortunately (and I really mean unfortunately as I love milk/cheese/yogurt etc), as best as we can tell from unbiased sources, it is. As a species we've just not evolved to deal with it. I'm going to break it down to a few points.

Lactose: the carbohydrate in milk. It's broken down by the enzyme lactase. As you grow from being a baby you produce less and less of this. North europeans, having been dairy farmers the longest, have managed to develop a slightly greater ability to produce lactase later in life. So we only have about 5% lactose intolerance. This shoots up to 70% in asia, and practically 100% of native north american adults are lactose intolerant. Still though, just because you're not lactose intolerant, it doesn't mean you can deal with it very well. An american friend of mine introduced me to the "milk challenge", which requires one to drink 1 gallon (american gallon so bout 3.8litres) of milk in one hour. Let's just say it gets very messy, and makes it very obvious we weren't built to survive off milk.

Dairy allergy: seperate from lactose intolerance, this is what most people refer to I think when they talk of the hazards of milk. I'll be anecdotal: If you're one of those people who feel like you almost have a constant cold. Drippy nose since childhood. Maybe you have asthma too? My friend was like this, he just accepted it. One day he read something and decided to go off dairy. Within a few weeks his symptoms just went. He never has to blow his nose anymore. He went from using his inhalor twice a day to about once a week. This is stupidly common and undiagnosed. Dairy products will usually exacerbate most allergies.
I myself even notice if I eat a lot of dairy I get stuffy. So I try keep it to a minimum.

Glycemic Load: While dairy products technically have a low glycemic index, they are highly insulinotropic. This means milk/cheese/yogurt have an insulin index similar to that of white bread! And so are correlated with a variety of health issues, including type 1 diabetes, prostate cancer, multiple sclerosis, and crohn’s disease. It doesn't make life any easier for those with type 2 diabetes either.

Calcium: Yes, milk is chock full of calcium. Then why is it that the countries where milk is drank (US, Western Europe) the most, also have the highest incidences of osteoporosis? Okay, so correlation is not causation, there are probably numerous factors, yet one can't help but be suspicious.
Let's approach this scientifically: contrary to common thought, milk is actually acidic and (unlike acidic fruits) reports to your kidneys as acidic (iirc 5.2 pH). This means your kidneys have to actually donate calcium to your bloodstream to neutralise its pH. In the end, it is not a good source of calcium.


Don't underestimate the propaganda power the dairy industry has, I'm serious...

Look at the food pyramid (that thing that said you should eat lots of bread and rice but very little fish, eggs or red meat :rolleyes: ). Guess who created that? The US Dept of Agriculture. Do you really think their primary motive is the health of their nation?

My supervisor, during one of our debates, made a point that the average height of the chinese went up by such and such an amount after the introduction of milk. If one has a malnourished diet (low protein in this case) then milk will definitely be an improvement. I honestly think vegans would benefit from a little dairy now and then. But for the rest of us, dairy, especially in any kind of excess, is certainly something we can do without.

im really interested in this as i only just found out the unnecessary dairy theory-have u any evidence of it as id love to read up on it?

ApeXaviour

Well here's an article outlining lactose intolerance, comparing it with dairy allergies:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stevecarper/livallg.htm
It's not a scientific article, just purely informative.

Here's a reference to a study on milk's insulinotropic properties, done on older women.
http://www.healthy.net/scr/news.asp?Id=7727

But if you don't eat much lean meat, eggs, etc. then giving up dairy (milk/cheese being a decent source of protein) may do more harm than good, IMO.

Keep an open mind...
On my searches I came across this website:
http://www.rense.com/general26/milk.htm
Which is just anti-dairy propaganda. Unreferenced scare tactics. Don't pay heed to it. Milk probably won't kill you, sugar might, but milk won't

DeVore

So me sitting here eating tubfuls of yogurt is bad?
Bread is bad, feckin everything is bad...

I dunno. Honestly I dont

DeV.

Supercell

Hmm, milk as a poor source of calcium, dem bones dem bones need calcium...

Would love to know G'em's take on this.

ApeXaviour

dem bones dem bones need calcium...

The results aren't in fully for this. But the original view taken is myopic. It looks at pure ingestion of calcium, ignoring absorption, in which other minerals present will either hinder or are required. It also ignores the acid/base balance.


One thing milk is good at though... is rehydrating:

http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?id=78713-milk-rehydration-sports-drink

Dioralyte (edit: actually it's another company that produce a similar product) recommends using it to replace fluids after diaorrhoea.

ApeXaviour

Happy Christmas from some very hot propaganda...

Tar.Aldarion

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Neither. I thought I alluded to it when I mentioned the chinese. I say vegans would benefit from dairy, merely because they would usually be quite deficient in their protein intake. Most dairy products (not including cream or butter) are actually a really good source of protein (see

There is nothing in dairy that vegans can not get elsewhere easily, they don't really need any...
Usually a vegan will be quite care about their health in my experience, due to giving up most foods they once ate and having to look up information on what to do.

DeVore wrote: »

So me sitting here eating tubfuls of yogurt is bad?
Bread is bad, feckin everything is bad...

I dunno. Honestly I dont

DeV.

Dairy free yoghurt?:p

ApeXaviour

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

There is nothing in dairy that vegans can not get elsewhere easily,

I'm not sure I really agree with that statement. Easily is subjective.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Usually a vegan will be quite care about their health in my experience, due to giving up most foods they once ate and having to look up information on what to do.

That's very true. Just (informed) thinking about what you eat does so much. It's a diet of personal choice though, not something I think ideally tuned for health, though it may improve just that indirectly.

g'em

There are a lot of things in the modern day diet that could easily and justifiably be removed for the better health of the general populous; I honestly don't think that milk is one of them. I always cringe a little when I see the scaremongering that surrounds dairy, because for all the bad reputation that it has, the data just isn't there to justify it.

As a quick aside, drinking 3.8L of water in an hour is entirely doable and relatively easy, and I will frequently drink upwards of 10L of water a day to prepare for dehydrating (but it's not to be recommended as an ongoing habit )

If you take a look around the internet there will be quite conflicting messages as to how 'safe' dairy is, but the source of those messages will usually give an indication as to the motive behind them: vegan societies often use the argument that dairy is a crap source of calcium (which isn't true); dairy councils will tell you that a yoghurt a day is the be-all and end-all of healthy bones; a vitamin supplement manufacturer will advise you that no amount of milk guzzling will provide you with the type/ exact amount of Ca you need and you should buy product X lest you develop early onset osteoporosis and end up with a zimmer frame before the age of 35.

In a way, they're all right. And they're also all wrong

Your body's ability to absorb calcium is reliant on a number of factors such as age, your Ca requirements, and what combinations of foods are eaten. Children absorb a higher percentage of their ingested calcium than adults because their needs during growth spurts may be two or three times greater per body weight than adults. Vitamin D is necessary for intestinal absorption, making Vitamin D–fortified milk a very well-absorbed form of calcium. Older persons may not consume or make as much vitamin D as is optimal, so their calcium absorption may be decreased. Vitamin C and lactose (the sugar found in milk) enhance calcium absorption, whereas meals high in fat or protein may decrease absorption. Excess phosphorous consumption (as in carbonated sodas) can decrease calcium absorption in the intestines. High dietary fiber and phytate (a form of phytic acid found in dietary fiber and the husks of whole grains) may also decrease dietary calcium absorption in some areas of the world. Intestinal pH also affects calcium absorption—absorption is optimal with normal stomach acidity generated at meal times. Thus, persons with reduced stomach acidity (e.g., elderly persons, or persons on acid-reducing medicines) do not absorb calcium as well as others do.
(see more at: http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Ca-De/Calcium.html)

Dairy has also been linked to the prevention of childhood obesity, effectively aids weight loss, boosts long-term lipogenesis (fat-burning), protects against metabolic syndrome and protects against breast cancer.
(see more at: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=130#healthbenefits)

However, modern-day dairy is also intensively farmed, and there are issues surrounding its production that you do need to be mindful of if you have a diet high in cow's milk in particular. Homogenisation and pasteurisation destroy up to 50% of the vitamins in the milk, and cows can be fed hormones to encourage milk-production long after calving, and antibiotics to prevent ill-health. These can be passed with the milk and consumed by humans - there have even been (fairly outlandish but not totally unsubstantiated) suggestions of the early onset of childhood maturity in females and the increase in dairy (and therefore bioactive hormone) consumption. And sure, lactose intolerance is also a problem, but only for less than 5% of our population. More often that not a large amount of full-fat dairy will cause discomfort and bloating for many people, but that can be easily solved by switching to low-fat or skimmed, which has had much of the lactose removed.

Put it this way, a little bit of dairy (harsh allergies and intolerances aside) won't kill you, heck it may even do your body good. An over-reliance on dairy however will not do you any quantifiable amount of good either. DeV - keep eating your yoghurts; try to buy organic and with as few ingredients as possible, they're still *much* better for you than the prized bags of gummy bears

Tar.Aldarion

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I'm not sure I really agree with that statement. Easily is subjective.

That's very true. Just (informed) thinking about what you eat does so much. It's a diet of personal choice though, not something I think ideally tuned for health, though it may improve just that indirectly.

With regards dairy, it's positives can be found easily elsewhere, yes easily(especially with fortified foods these days), and it's cons outweigh pro's thusly, imo.
What do you think is hard to find that is in dairy and is good for you? :-)

a little bit of dairy (harsh allergies and intolerances aside) won't kill you, heck it may even do your body good. An over-reliance on dairy however will not do you any quantifiable amount of good either. DeV - keep eating your yoghurts; try to buy organic and with as few ingredients as possible, they're still *much* better for you than the prized bags of gummy bears

It's true, but I would warn that too many people rely on dairy too much, especially butter. I try to have as little 'dairy' butter as possible, going with other forms.

Supercell

Wow g'em!, we're lucky to have you on boards here, thats a fantastic post imho.

ApeXaviour

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What do you think is hard to find that is in dairy and is good for you?

I said it already, twice. Protein, but let's not get into that debate.

Tar.Aldarion

Ok no debate, I just don't see how you could think poeple could need dairy to get protein when protein is easy to get from vegan food. If I'm right, off the top of my head they can eat:
soya products(tofu,tempeh,soya drinks and desserts)all provide complete protein in themselves.
Combining whole grains(unrefined wheat,rye,millet,barlet,spelt,rice,quinoa)
with pulses(beans,peas,lentils)and supplementing with small amounts of nuts and seeds also provides plenty of protein.All the essential amino acids are found in combinations
such as beans on toast,lentil curry with brown rice,musli with dairy free milk,hummus made from chickpeas and sesame tahini,peanut butter sandwiches made from wholemeal bread.
There is some in potato skins too?
I think vegans have to eat a lot of that by default.

ApeXaviour

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Ok no debate, I just don't see how you could think poeple could need dairy to get protein when protein is easy to get from vegan food.

Yes protein is easy to get from almost anything, even low protein sources. Enough protein isn't that easy however (granted "enough" is subjective, just like "easy"). Then you have to take into account bioavailability, and how complete it is etc.

I have a lot of respect for vegetarians, and I've nothing against vegans apart from a lack of understanding. I respect that they've made a personal choice, but like any diet defined purely on the exclusion of certain foods I don't think a vegan diet is very healthy by default (I mean you could eat sugar sandwiches, pasta and white rice all the time and call yourself a vegan!). Within the boundaries of that diet there's potential to make it very healthy indeed. Barry Sears book: The Soy Zone would likely illustrate that very well.

But then there is always the risk of hypothyroidism with too much soy.

Zapho

The-Rigger wrote: »

Drink 3.8 litres of anything in an hour and it's going to get messy.
I don't understand the point.

I was gonna say that too! Even orange juice, water, anything really.

And g'em drinking that 3-4 litres of water in an hour may be doable but not recommended.
The body isn't built to deal with it (or that amount of any liquid). You stomach expands as a result,
and you could vomit, just like the OP did. This test really doesn't prove that milk is bad for you!

I do drink milk and was told that I'd probably notice huge changes if I stopped all dairy products, so I did.
And nothing happened! So I went back to drinking milk

g'em

Zapho wrote: »

And g'em drinking that 3-4 litres of water in an hour may be doable but not recommended.

I agree, indeed that's what I said....

g'em wrote:

As a quick aside, drinking 3.8L of water in an hour is entirely doable and relatively easy, and I will frequently drink upwards of 10L of water a day to prepare for dehydrating (but it's not to be recommended as an ongoing habit )

I drink that much water in a short space of time as specific preparation for competition not as a daily habit.

Zapho

g'em wrote: »

I agree, indeed that's what I said....



I drink that much water in a short space of time as specific preparation for competition not as a daily habit.

Ooops, sorry! I didn't see that part