Milk

Lockstep

I hear so much stuff these days about how bad milk is, but seeing as it's usually people trying to turn me vegan I figured I might get some good feedback here.

Is milk actually bad for you? I was always taught it was good for me and that it was filled with vitamens and calcium, so I drank it by the bucketload.

Still love it, I take Light/semi skilled milk as I think it tastes slightly better if that makes any difference

ApeXaviour

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I hear so much stuff these days about how bad milk is, but seeing as it's usually people trying to turn me vegan I figured I might get some good feedback here.

Is milk actually bad for you?

Unfortunately (and I really mean unfortunately as I love milk/cheese/yogurt etc), as best as we can tell from unbiased sources, it is. As a species we've just not evolved to deal with it. I'm going to break it down to a few points.

Lactose: the carbohydrate in milk. It's broken down by the enzyme lactase. As you grow from being a baby you produce less and less of this. North europeans, having been dairy farmers the longest, have managed to develop a slightly greater ability to produce lactase later in life. So we only have about 5% lactose intolerance. This shoots up to 70% in asia, and practically 100% of native north american adults are lactose intolerant. Still though, just because you're not lactose intolerant, it doesn't mean you can deal with it very well. An american friend of mine introduced me to the "milk challenge", which requires one to drink 1 gallon (american gallon so bout 3.8litres) of milk in one hour. Let's just say it gets very messy, and makes it very obvious we weren't built to survive off milk.

Dairy allergy: seperate from lactose intolerance, this is what most people refer to I think when they talk of the hazards of milk. I'll be anecdotal: If you're one of those people who feel like you almost have a constant cold. Drippy nose since childhood. Maybe you have asthma too? My friend was like this, he just accepted it. One day he read something and decided to go off dairy. Within a few weeks his symptoms just went. He never has to blow his nose anymore. He went from using his inhalor twice a day to about once a week. This is stupidly common and undiagnosed. Dairy products will usually exacerbate most allergies.
I myself even notice if I eat a lot of dairy I get stuffy. So I try keep it to a minimum.

Glycemic Load: While dairy products technically have a low glycemic index, they are highly insulinotropic. This means milk/cheese/yogurt have an insulin index similar to that of white bread! And so are correlated with a variety of health issues, including type 1 diabetes, prostate cancer, multiple sclerosis, and crohn’s disease. It doesn't make life any easier for those with type 2 diabetes either.

Calcium: Yes, milk is chock full of calcium. Then why is it that the countries where milk is drank (US, Western Europe) the most, also have the highest incidences of osteoporosis? Okay, so correlation is not causation, there are probably numerous factors, yet one can't help but be suspicious.
Let's approach this scientifically: contrary to common thought, milk is actually acidic and (unlike acidic fruits) reports to your kidneys as acidic (iirc 5.2 pH). This means your kidneys have to actually donate calcium to your bloodstream to neutralise its pH. In the end, it is not a good source of calcium.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I was always taught it was good for me and that it was filled with vitamens and calcium, so I drank it by the bucketload.

Don't underestimate the propaganda power the dairy industry has, I'm serious...

Look at the food pyramid (that thing that said you should eat lots of bread and rice but very little fish, eggs or red meat :rolleyes: ). Guess who created that? The US Dept of Agriculture. Do you really think their primary motive is the health of their nation?

My supervisor, during one of our debates, made a point that the average height of the chinese went up by such and such an amount after the introduction of milk. If one has a malnourished diet (low protein in this case) then milk will definitely be an improvement. I honestly think vegans would benefit from a little dairy now and then. But for the rest of us, dairy, especially in any kind of excess, is certainly something we can do without.

Lockstep

Yeah, the thing is I was caught between pro milk propaghanda(the establishment) and the anti milk( mostly vegans)

I went with the pro as I have the usual thing of putting my faith in the established order

Parnassia

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I honestly think vegans would benefit from a little dairy now and then. But for the rest of us, dairy, especially in any kind of excess, is certainly something we can do without.

Just wondering why you think vegans would benefit from dairy? You've said it's not a good source of calcium. Is it for B12 or D that you would recommend it?

Saruman

I think there was some sarcasm in ApeXaviour's post

I would not be the best at handling milk now. I tend to use a lot of powdered milk these days. I only buy real milk if i want to make a white Russian or something and then its low fat.

Macha

Is it not true that the fat in dairy products attaches onto the calcium and they both go through you? So in fact non-dairy souces of calcium are absorbed better?

Just something that is rolling around in my head...

ApeXaviour

Just wondering why you think vegans would benefit from dairy? You've said it's not a good source of calcium. Is it for B12 or D that you would recommend it?

Neither. I thought I alluded to it when I mentioned the chinese. I say vegans would benefit from dairy, merely because they would usually be quite deficient in their protein intake. Most dairy products (not including cream or butter) are actually a really good source of protein (see whey protein). For the rest of us with less restrictive diets, the pros don't outweigh the cons.

taconnol wrote: »

Is it not true that the fat in dairy products attaches onto the calcium and they both go through you?

Can't say I've ever heard it if it is true

taconnol wrote: »

So in fact non-dairy souces of calcium are absorbed better?

They are indeed.

rubadub

taconnol wrote: »

Is it not true that the fat in dairy products attaches onto the calcium and they both go through you? So in fact non-dairy souces of calcium are absorbed better?

Just something that is rolling around in my head...

I have heard the calcium in the milk will bond with other fats in your system, so can result in less calories being absorbed.

In the supermarkets there are little bottles with calcium rich dairy product and it is says it is for weight loss, while not saying how they do it. Similar to little pots of stuff with benecifial bacteria.

As a species we've just not evolved to deal with it.

Yes, drinking human milk as an adult would be a better option. Fundamentally it does seem odd to drink a fluid "designed" to be ingested to aid the development of the young of another species.

Jesus Wept

ApeXaviour wrote: »

An american friend of mine introduced me to the "milk challenge", which requires one to drink 1 gallon (american gallon so bout 3.8litres) of milk in one hour. Let's just say it gets very messy, and makes it very obvious we weren't built to survive off milk.

Drink 3.8 litres of anything in an hour and it's going to get messy.
I don't understand the point.

ApeXaviour

The-Rigger wrote: »

I don't understand the point.

Clearly...

When I say messy I don't mean just very unpleasant, as would be the case for say coke. I've happily drank 2L of water before in 10 mins, just because I was parched, with no side effects. 3.8L in an hour, while not incredibly nice, is certainly doable.

With milk, you simply cannot produce enough lactase to deal with anywhere near that amount. In or around the half hour mark, people usually are evacuating themselves violently from both ends.

rubadub wrote:

Yes, drinking human milk as an adult would be a better option.

I suppose... though the lactose problem would still be there.

rubadub

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I suppose... though the lactose problem would still be there.

There is even more lactose in human milk. I was taking the piss about the human milk, people take milk for granted since they grew up with it. If nobody tradtitionally drank it and somebody posted here saying "I have a great new drink to try, you know those cow animals you see in fields, well you sqeeze their udders and out comes this fluid, full of homrones, nutrients etc which help their young develop, well it tastes great when mixed with museli". It would be kicked to the recycle bin and the person would be banned!

ApeXaviour

Well the same can be said about a lot of things. Wheat is like grass seed. Who was the first person to say "ooh look what that chicken just pooped, I think I'll eat that". What's worse than milk is when you've let bacteria grow in it, i.e. cheese/yogurt. I love blue cheese, but if I ever encounter an odour like that anywhere else I recoil.

Maggots are very nutritious, and a good source of protein. A lot of places in africa and asia they eat certain insects, other cultures dine on the human placenta. It's all cultural familiarity. At least human derived milk is actually produced specifically for humans to consume...

In the end it's all protein, carbohydrate, fat and trace minerals etc.

Jesus Wept

So do you recommend cutting Dairy totally out of ones diet?

ApeXaviour

Well it depends on the individual, it goes with out saying if you've dairy allergy symptoms...
For most people, if you get enough dietry protein elsewhere, and the net pH in your diet is basic (i.e. you eat a lot of fruit and veg) then yes, IMO you'd be better off cutting it out.

Me... I find it very difficult to cut out entirely because I love it so much. So I've settled for reducing it severely. My vices consist of a little bit of Gruyère Reserve, or pyrenean sheep cheeses my basque friend introduced to me (you haven't lived until you've tried cheese like this)

PrettyInPunk

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Unfortunately (and I really mean unfortunately as I love milk/cheese/yogurt etc), as best as we can tell from unbiased sources, it is. As a species we've just not evolved to deal with it. I'm going to break it down to a few points.

Lactose: the carbohydrate in milk. It's broken down by the enzyme lactase. As you grow from being a baby you produce less and less of this. North europeans, having been dairy farmers the longest, have managed to develop a slightly greater ability to produce lactase later in life. So we only have about 5% lactose intolerance. This shoots up to 70% in asia, and practically 100% of native north american adults are lactose intolerant. Still though, just because you're not lactose intolerant, it doesn't mean you can deal with it very well. An american friend of mine introduced me to the "milk challenge", which requires one to drink 1 gallon (american gallon so bout 3.8litres) of milk in one hour. Let's just say it gets very messy, and makes it very obvious we weren't built to survive off milk.

Dairy allergy: seperate from lactose intolerance, this is what most people refer to I think when they talk of the hazards of milk. I'll be anecdotal: If you're one of those people who feel like you almost have a constant cold. Drippy nose since childhood. Maybe you have asthma too? My friend was like this, he just accepted it. One day he read something and decided to go off dairy. Within a few weeks his symptoms just went. He never has to blow his nose anymore. He went from using his inhalor twice a day to about once a week. This is stupidly common and undiagnosed. Dairy products will usually exacerbate most allergies.
I myself even notice if I eat a lot of dairy I get stuffy. So I try keep it to a minimum.

Glycemic Load: While dairy products technically have a low glycemic index, they are highly insulinotropic. This means milk/cheese/yogurt have an insulin index similar to that of white bread! And so are correlated with a variety of health issues, including type 1 diabetes, prostate cancer, multiple sclerosis, and crohn’s disease. It doesn't make life any easier for those with type 2 diabetes either.

Calcium: Yes, milk is chock full of calcium. Then why is it that the countries where milk is drank (US, Western Europe) the most, also have the highest incidences of osteoporosis? Okay, so correlation is not causation, there are probably numerous factors, yet one can't help but be suspicious.
Let's approach this scientifically: contrary to common thought, milk is actually acidic and (unlike acidic fruits) reports to your kidneys as acidic (iirc 5.2 pH). This means your kidneys have to actually donate calcium to your bloodstream to neutralise its pH. In the end, it is not a good source of calcium.


Don't underestimate the propaganda power the dairy industry has, I'm serious...

Look at the food pyramid (that thing that said you should eat lots of bread and rice but very little fish, eggs or red meat :rolleyes: ). Guess who created that? The US Dept of Agriculture. Do you really think their primary motive is the health of their nation?

My supervisor, during one of our debates, made a point that the average height of the chinese went up by such and such an amount after the introduction of milk. If one has a malnourished diet (low protein in this case) then milk will definitely be an improvement. I honestly think vegans would benefit from a little dairy now and then. But for the rest of us, dairy, especially in any kind of excess, is certainly something we can do without.

im really interested in this as i only just found out the unnecessary dairy theory-have u any evidence of it as id love to read up on it?

ApeXaviour

Well here's an article outlining lactose intolerance, comparing it with dairy allergies:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stevecarper/livallg.htm
It's not a scientific article, just purely informative.

Here's a reference to a study on milk's insulinotropic properties, done on older women.
http://www.healthy.net/scr/news.asp?Id=7727

But if you don't eat much lean meat, eggs, etc. then giving up dairy (milk/cheese being a decent source of protein) may do more harm than good, IMO.

Keep an open mind...
On my searches I came across this website:
http://www.rense.com/general26/milk.htm
Which is just anti-dairy propaganda. Unreferenced scare tactics. Don't pay heed to it. Milk probably won't kill you, sugar might, but milk won't

DeVore

So me sitting here eating tubfuls of yogurt is bad?
Bread is bad, feckin everything is bad...

I dunno. Honestly I dont

DeV.

Supercell

Hmm, milk as a poor source of calcium, dem bones dem bones need calcium...

Would love to know G'em's take on this.

ApeXaviour

dem bones dem bones need calcium...

The results aren't in fully for this. But the original view taken is myopic. It looks at pure ingestion of calcium, ignoring absorption, in which other minerals present will either hinder or are required. It also ignores the acid/base balance.


One thing milk is good at though... is rehydrating:

http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?id=78713-milk-rehydration-sports-drink

Dioralyte (edit: actually it's another company that produce a similar product) recommends using it to replace fluids after diaorrhoea.

ApeXaviour

Happy Christmas from some very hot propaganda...

Tar.Aldarion

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Neither. I thought I alluded to it when I mentioned the chinese. I say vegans would benefit from dairy, merely because they would usually be quite deficient in their protein intake. Most dairy products (not including cream or butter) are actually a really good source of protein (see

There is nothing in dairy that vegans can not get elsewhere easily, they don't really need any...
Usually a vegan will be quite care about their health in my experience, due to giving up most foods they once ate and having to look up information on what to do.

DeVore wrote: »

So me sitting here eating tubfuls of yogurt is bad?
Bread is bad, feckin everything is bad...

I dunno. Honestly I dont

DeV.

Dairy free yoghurt?:p

ApeXaviour

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

There is nothing in dairy that vegans can not get elsewhere easily,

I'm not sure I really agree with that statement. Easily is subjective.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Usually a vegan will be quite care about their health in my experience, due to giving up most foods they once ate and having to look up information on what to do.

That's very true. Just (informed) thinking about what you eat does so much. It's a diet of personal choice though, not something I think ideally tuned for health, though it may improve just that indirectly.

g'em

There are a lot of things in the modern day diet that could easily and justifiably be removed for the better health of the general populous; I honestly don't think that milk is one of them. I always cringe a little when I see the scaremongering that surrounds dairy, because for all the bad reputation that it has, the data just isn't there to justify it.

As a quick aside, drinking 3.8L of water in an hour is entirely doable and relatively easy, and I will frequently drink upwards of 10L of water a day to prepare for dehydrating (but it's not to be recommended as an ongoing habit )

If you take a look around the internet there will be quite conflicting messages as to how 'safe' dairy is, but the source of those messages will usually give an indication as to the motive behind them: vegan societies often use the argument that dairy is a crap source of calcium (which isn't true); dairy councils will tell you that a yoghurt a day is the be-all and end-all of healthy bones; a vitamin supplement manufacturer will advise you that no amount of milk guzzling will provide you with the type/ exact amount of Ca you need and you should buy product X lest you develop early onset osteoporosis and end up with a zimmer frame before the age of 35.

In a way, they're all right. And they're also all wrong

Your body's ability to absorb calcium is reliant on a number of factors such as age, your Ca requirements, and what combinations of foods are eaten. Children absorb a higher percentage of their ingested calcium than adults because their needs during growth spurts may be two or three times greater per body weight than adults. Vitamin D is necessary for intestinal absorption, making Vitamin D–fortified milk a very well-absorbed form of calcium. Older persons may not consume or make as much vitamin D as is optimal, so their calcium absorption may be decreased. Vitamin C and lactose (the sugar found in milk) enhance calcium absorption, whereas meals high in fat or protein may decrease absorption. Excess phosphorous consumption (as in carbonated sodas) can decrease calcium absorption in the intestines. High dietary fiber and phytate (a form of phytic acid found in dietary fiber and the husks of whole grains) may also decrease dietary calcium absorption in some areas of the world. Intestinal pH also affects calcium absorption—absorption is optimal with normal stomach acidity generated at meal times. Thus, persons with reduced stomach acidity (e.g., elderly persons, or persons on acid-reducing medicines) do not absorb calcium as well as others do.
(see more at: http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Ca-De/Calcium.html)

Dairy has also been linked to the prevention of childhood obesity, effectively aids weight loss, boosts long-term lipogenesis (fat-burning), protects against metabolic syndrome and protects against breast cancer.
(see more at: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=130#healthbenefits)

However, modern-day dairy is also intensively farmed, and there are issues surrounding its production that you do need to be mindful of if you have a diet high in cow's milk in particular. Homogenisation and pasteurisation destroy up to 50% of the vitamins in the milk, and cows can be fed hormones to encourage milk-production long after calving, and antibiotics to prevent ill-health. These can be passed with the milk and consumed by humans - there have even been (fairly outlandish but not totally unsubstantiated) suggestions of the early onset of childhood maturity in females and the increase in dairy (and therefore bioactive hormone) consumption. And sure, lactose intolerance is also a problem, but only for less than 5% of our population. More often that not a large amount of full-fat dairy will cause discomfort and bloating for many people, but that can be easily solved by switching to low-fat or skimmed, which has had much of the lactose removed.

Put it this way, a little bit of dairy (harsh allergies and intolerances aside) won't kill you, heck it may even do your body good. An over-reliance on dairy however will not do you any quantifiable amount of good either. DeV - keep eating your yoghurts; try to buy organic and with as few ingredients as possible, they're still *much* better for you than the prized bags of gummy bears

Tar.Aldarion

ApeXaviour wrote: »

I'm not sure I really agree with that statement. Easily is subjective.

That's very true. Just (informed) thinking about what you eat does so much. It's a diet of personal choice though, not something I think ideally tuned for health, though it may improve just that indirectly.

With regards dairy, it's positives can be found easily elsewhere, yes easily(especially with fortified foods these days), and it's cons outweigh pro's thusly, imo.
What do you think is hard to find that is in dairy and is good for you? :-)

a little bit of dairy (harsh allergies and intolerances aside) won't kill you, heck it may even do your body good. An over-reliance on dairy however will not do you any quantifiable amount of good either. DeV - keep eating your yoghurts; try to buy organic and with as few ingredients as possible, they're still *much* better for you than the prized bags of gummy bears

It's true, but I would warn that too many people rely on dairy too much, especially butter. I try to have as little 'dairy' butter as possible, going with other forms.

Supercell

Wow g'em!, we're lucky to have you on boards here, thats a fantastic post imho.

ApeXaviour

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What do you think is hard to find that is in dairy and is good for you?

I said it already, twice. Protein, but let's not get into that debate.

Tar.Aldarion

Ok no debate, I just don't see how you could think poeple could need dairy to get protein when protein is easy to get from vegan food. If I'm right, off the top of my head they can eat:
soya products(tofu,tempeh,soya drinks and desserts)all provide complete protein in themselves.
Combining whole grains(unrefined wheat,rye,millet,barlet,spelt,rice,quinoa)
with pulses(beans,peas,lentils)and supplementing with small amounts of nuts and seeds also provides plenty of protein.All the essential amino acids are found in combinations
such as beans on toast,lentil curry with brown rice,musli with dairy free milk,hummus made from chickpeas and sesame tahini,peanut butter sandwiches made from wholemeal bread.
There is some in potato skins too?
I think vegans have to eat a lot of that by default.

ApeXaviour

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Ok no debate, I just don't see how you could think poeple could need dairy to get protein when protein is easy to get from vegan food.

Yes protein is easy to get from almost anything, even low protein sources. Enough protein isn't that easy however (granted "enough" is subjective, just like "easy"). Then you have to take into account bioavailability, and how complete it is etc.

I have a lot of respect for vegetarians, and I've nothing against vegans apart from a lack of understanding. I respect that they've made a personal choice, but like any diet defined purely on the exclusion of certain foods I don't think a vegan diet is very healthy by default (I mean you could eat sugar sandwiches, pasta and white rice all the time and call yourself a vegan!). Within the boundaries of that diet there's potential to make it very healthy indeed. Barry Sears book: The Soy Zone would likely illustrate that very well.

But then there is always the risk of hypothyroidism with too much soy.

Zapho

The-Rigger wrote: »

Drink 3.8 litres of anything in an hour and it's going to get messy.
I don't understand the point.

I was gonna say that too! Even orange juice, water, anything really.

And g'em drinking that 3-4 litres of water in an hour may be doable but not recommended.
The body isn't built to deal with it (or that amount of any liquid). You stomach expands as a result,
and you could vomit, just like the OP did. This test really doesn't prove that milk is bad for you!

I do drink milk and was told that I'd probably notice huge changes if I stopped all dairy products, so I did.
And nothing happened! So I went back to drinking milk

g'em

Zapho wrote: »

And g'em drinking that 3-4 litres of water in an hour may be doable but not recommended.

I agree, indeed that's what I said....

g'em wrote:

As a quick aside, drinking 3.8L of water in an hour is entirely doable and relatively easy, and I will frequently drink upwards of 10L of water a day to prepare for dehydrating (but it's not to be recommended as an ongoing habit )

I drink that much water in a short space of time as specific preparation for competition not as a daily habit.

Zapho

g'em wrote: »

I agree, indeed that's what I said....



I drink that much water in a short space of time as specific preparation for competition not as a daily habit.

Ooops, sorry! I didn't see that part

hardtrainer

Just a couple of things stand out here. The argument that humans are not supposed to drink cows milk past infancy is ridiculous. In western europe we've been doing it for thousands of years. Plenty of time to evolve and evolve we have. Look at any of the population genetics studies (many done right here in ireland) which show that we're well adapted to produce lactase into adulthood and not just in pitiful amounts either. We are adapted to use dairy as an ongoing source of nutrients. Fact.

On a worldwide point of view, of course, some populations have far greater levels of lactose intolerance than others. Nowhere is it 100%. Nowhere. It tops out at about 70-80%.

Severe dairy allergy (which is to milk protein) is not very common in Ireland or worldwide. Allergy to Soy is more prevalent both here and worldwide. Mild dairy intolerance is common enough but doesn't depend on how much you drink (i.e. symptoms don't escalate if you drink 1 litre versus 10ml) and the reaction in mucus membranes (including respiratory) is greatly reduced with lowered fat content (fats coat mucus membranes...great for spreading flavous around your mouth..why butter is added to sauces etc...bad for irritating mucus membranes sensititive to milk proteins) so skimmed milk has zero effects with me.

As for calcium. Dairy is still the single best source for people of european descent. I was part of a study group over 4 years looking at dairy intake and bone density. It was the reason I began drinking milk again after an 8 year break in dairy consumption. It works, thats all I'm saying.

Look at Clin Exp Allergy. 2007 May;37(5):627-30. for more information on dairy and allergies, in particularl, the benefits of live milk (unpasteurised milk).

With respect to Vegan diets. There is nothing in milk that cannot be gotten from other sources, milk is just very convenient. It's easy to get large amounts of protein in the diet if you eat a lot of nuts, beans and pulses and the quality of the protein is extremely high, much higher than much of the meat consumed in ireland.


I'm with G'em, over reliance on dairy ain't good (as with any food) but it is not bad for you and it certainly won't kill you. The milk challenge thing is ridiculous and was all part of a massive drive in the US to portray milk as unnatural (by the soy industry, who suddenly realised selling soy as human food made much more money than selling it as animal feed). Eating 4 of 5 different forms of a bean which our ancestors would never ever have seen, let alone tasted, is hardly natural in that respect either! And besides, drinking vast quantites of any liquid is very dangerous (unless it's isotonic) and can lead to hyponatremia as a result of water intoxication. About 15 litres in one day is the max, but it's a combination of volume and time that is the killer (literally in some cases). Almost 4 litres in 30 mins is not good. It has nothing to do with your body rejecting milk.

Tar.Aldarion

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Yes protein is easy to get from almost anything, even low protein sources. Enough protein isn't that easy however (granted "enough" is subjective, just like "easy"). Then you have to take into account bioavailability, and how complete it is etc.

Well, everything is subjective, that discussion would be a bit pointless.
There are a huge variety of sources of full protein and all I am saying isit is not hard to obtain equally as good amounts and better amounts of protein in other foods.

I have a lot of respect for vegetarians, and I've nothing against vegans apart from a lack of understanding. I respect that they've made a personal choice, but like any diet defined purely on the exclusion of certain foods I don't think a vegan diet is very healthy by default (I mean you could eat sugar sandwiches, pasta and white rice all the time and call yourself a vegan!). Within the boundaries of that diet there's potential to make it very healthy indeed. Barry Sears book: The Soy Zone would likely illustrate that very well.

But then there is always the risk of hypothyroidism with too much soy.

There is always a risk of bad effects with too much of a food, I wouldn't advise relying on anything too much.

Edwardius

hardtrainer wrote: »

With respect to Vegan diets. There is nothing in milk that cannot be gotten from other sources, milk is just very convenient. It's easy to get large amounts of protein in the diet if you eat a lot of nuts, beans and pulses and the quality of the protein is extremely high, much higher than much of the meat consumed in ireland.

Without seeming picky, i'd like to see what you define as the "quality" of a protein source. Does it pertain to bioavailability? What would you classify as "Much of the meat consumed in Ireland"? I'm sure eating lentils etc for protein might have advantages over dodgy sausages and kebab meat but the animal products people here refer to when speaking about healtful omnivorous diets include lean red meat, fish and poultry. It's possible that a vegan diet is better than what most people eat in ireland seeing as most of it is packaged garbage, but that doesn't mean that a vegan diet is the be all and end all of good nutrition. A little off topic but it'd be good to see these points clarified.

As for milk, just because it has calcium, doesn't mean you'll automatically absorb it regardless of what else you put in your gob. Milk can be good for bones if a favourable acid balance is present, as mentioned previously (eat a pile o' veg) but if you drink litres of the stuff a day in the presence of starchy foods, you'll be working insulin production into overtime and you'll piss that calcium right out along with leeching calcium from your bones (to neutralise the acidic conditions). The important thing is to keep a balanced diet, but you knew that already, right?

ApeXaviour

Hardtrainer... I take much of what you say in good faith. And I thank you for your contribution. But like yourself, a couple of things stand out.

hardtrainer wrote: »

With respect to Vegan diets. There is nothing in milk that cannot be gotten from other sources, milk is just very convenient. It's easy to get large amounts of protein in the diet if you eat a lot of nuts, beans and pulses and the quality of the protein is extremely high, much higher than much of the meat consumed in ireland.

Like ed, I wonder how you define quality. Yes there are crappy meats out there (frankfurters, kebab meat).
Lean red meat, poultry, eggs, fish, dairy and soy are the only high biological value proteins. i.e. proteins made up of all the required amino acids (ones your body cannot produce by itself). Pulses, nuts etc. are are of low biological value. Not only that but as you said yourself, they are common allergens, due to the concentration of lectins in them. In terms of bioavailability, eggs certainly come first with (I'm pretty sure) poultry and lean meats coming after.

hardtrainer wrote: »

The milk challenge thing is ridiculous and was all part of a massive drive in the US to portray milk as unnatural (by the soy industry, who suddenly realised selling soy as human food made much more money than selling it as animal feed).

I doubt it's that as much as a boyish schoolyard challenge to see people puke their ring up. Also in the US I'd imagine the dairy industry have a bit more sway than the soy industry. Think USDA (with their gross unresearched economically sanctioned food pyramid lies) and which one is home produced.

hardtrainer wrote: »

Eating 4 of 5 different forms of a bean which our ancestors would never ever have seen, let alone tasted, is hardly natural in that respect either!

Agree absolutely.

hardtrainer wrote: »

And besides, drinking vast quantites of any liquid is very dangerous (unless it's isotonic) and can lead to hyponatremia as a result of water intoxication.

This has been covered already. Drinking 3.8 litres of water, juice etc. in one hour, while not beneficial, is certainly doable. Drinking that same amount of milk (and keeping it inside you) is impossible for the vast majority; even for those genetically modified north Europeans among us.

hardtrainer wrote: »

It has nothing to do with your body rejecting milk.

It absolutely does, more specifically the large quantities of lactose.

hardtrainer

Ah bioavailable protein. One of the great buzz words of the nutrition industry's marketing machine. Mixing your pulses, grains and beans give you a great profile of amino acids and a very high quality protein (in absolute terms...remember, many of these can be stored for long periods as dry goods without any appreciable decrease in protein quality). I'm not advocating a vegan diet, I couldn't live (sanely) without my meat. While we're talking about meat. Yes, meat in ireland can be fantastic quality, but buying cheap meat gives you poor protein. Cheap chicken from dunnes and tescos!! Don't think you're getting 'typical nutritional values' from that stuff, you're not.

Before I get off the topic of bioavailability of protein. What protein has been shown again and again to be the most 'available'? Whey protein. Where does whey come from? Milk.

I'm not now, nor have I ever said that you should drink gallons of milk per day. Everything in moderation. However, milk is not bad for you.

This claim that milk being acidic (it's only weakly acidic BTW) forces your body to draw calcium for your bones to neutralise it, is really poor science. Firstly, while milk is acidic it is also a buffer (hence it being weakly acidic). A quick trawl of the literature shows a very striking concensus, adults with lactose intolerance are at greater risk of osteoporosis because of reduced dairy intake. I've counted more than 20 studies that confirm this finding. What does that say to you? Eating dairy protects you against osteoporosis.

If you eat excessive dairy (we're talking really excessive) then you can develop problems associated with high calcium in the diet, but this is very rare and cofactors are required.

ApeXaviour, your assertion that Dairy is homegrown in the US and soy is not really makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. The value of soy bean crop in the US in just one year (2003/2204) was $18 billion, not a million miles away from the $26 billion in milk production.

Drinking 3.8 litres of milk and vomiting has nothing to do with the body rejecting lactose. Thats such an absurd idea I don't know how to respond to it. It's simply that milk is food, as it it requires more digestion that water or juice etc (remember it contains fats, protein and sugars) so the stomach gets full quickly and the volume is the deciding factor in vomiting.

I don't think anyone here is advocating a diet of 100% dairy. I am not saying meat is bad. Balance is crucial. That doesn't mean milk is bad for you. The facts just don't support that idea, but the soy industry has done a very good job in the US, convincing people that dairy is the source of all evil.

samsamson

Can anybody give me some information on raw milk in this country?

I know it's illegal in some states in the USA, but I'm not sure what its status is here. I'd love to try some

olaola

samsamson wrote: »

Can anybody give me some information on raw milk in this country?

I know it's illegal in some states in the USA, but I'm not sure what its status is here. I'd love to try some

I'm sure if you sniffed out some farmer they would sell it to you.

This is quite interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/humanbody/truthaboutfood/slim/calcium.shtml

"In our study we tested our group on both diets. Week one was a diet high in calcium (2000mg) and week two a low calcium diet (500mg). Crucially, both diets had an identical calorific content and were calculated to have the same fat content.

Amazingly on the high dairy calcium diet twice the percentage of fat our subjects ate came out in their stools to when they were on the low calcium diet."

samsamson

samsamson wrote: »

Can anybody give me some information on raw milk in this country?

I know it's illegal in some states in the USA, but I'm not sure what its status is here. I'd love to try some

I really can't fathom this interest. When I was little everyone milked their own.
It is just milk where you can still taste the cow. I don't know anyone who prefers it to pasturized, and even people who don't mind it prefer to buy the other at this time of year. Because it stinks and tastes of Silage.
Generally you don't give it to people from non-farming backgrounds, as their immune systems aren't used to it. So its likely to make them sick.


American milk is awful because it comes from for want of a better term "Battery Cows".

hardtrainer

Samsamson,
Raw milk is prohibited for sale in Ireland, though you can obtain it sometimes directly from the farmer. There's a whole host of benefits associated with raw milk, but also some potential for infection.

olaola, there are lots more studies that show the same thing, that high calcium from dairy reduces the amount of fat absorbed in the intestines, although the exact mechanism is unknown.

McGinty

Personally I use both milk (low fat) in my tea, eat cheese, yogurt and butter, but I use soya milk in my cereal and also eat soya custard (which I love) and soya yogurts/deserts, I feel I get the best of both worlds. Everything in moderation really.

green123

to answer the op

McGinty wrote: »

Everything in moderation really.

and part of a balanced diet milk is not bad for you

end of thread

Sugar Drunk

I love cheese, yogurts and chocolate so I can't say I don't like milk but I do not drink milk. The way I look at it milk from a cow was by nature designed for calves to drink I just don't think its natural for people to drink it.
I had it poured into me by the parents when I was younger and feel much better health wise now that I don't drink it.