New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

Esel

ninty9er wrote: »

This system is much too messy to backdate.

You reckon? Messier than Stamp Duty, or Minister's pensions maybe.

ninty9er wrote: »

the wealthy landowning 4.4l X5 drivers ...

Look, get your prejudices out in the open. You mean Fine Gael. Don't beat around the bush - or the bushel!

copacetic

esel wrote: »

You reckon? Messier than Stamp Duty, or Minister's pensions maybe.

stamp duty changes aren't backdated though, if they were I'd be loaded. tax changes are never backdated afaik?

The bit that makes me laugh is all the stuff about the poor people who buy a car between now and july having to
pay more tax. what idiot would buy the car now in that situation? what they really mean is the dealers can't shift
cars as everyone is waiting and changing the system will help them selll them.

Esel

copacetic wrote: »

stamp duty changes aren't backdated though, if they were I'd be loaded.

They were backdated - just a little!

copacetic wrote: »

what idiot would buy the car now in that situation?

Just the people (not idiots btw) who had contracted to buy before the Budget.

The_Conductor

ninty9er wrote:

This system is much too messy to backdate. If you want to hire a team of software engineers to devise a system as the cost of hundreds of millions and then donate it to the government for the benefit of the rest of the country's motorists then go ahead.....

I disagree- the emissions of most of the vehicles on Irish roads are well known- the Department of the Environment confirmed to me that they have been recording all rates since January 2005. My argument is that even when they have not been recorded that for the most part they are still available- be it from manufacturers- or if they wanted to be uptodate- from NCT testing (they already measure NO and NO2 emissions- CO2 is even easier to measure). Manufacturers have records going back to about 1998- when emissions became an issue in other EU countries- why can't we use those records?

copacetic

esel wrote: »

They were backdated - just a little!

Just the people (not idiots btw) who had contracted to buy before the Budget.

hmmm, ok they are not as stupid as someone who buys now, but the possibility of changes was flagged a lot over the last 4-6 months. I was looking and decided to wait and see what happened in the budget and know a couple of other people who did too. I've no real sympathy for anyone in a rush to have a Jan 08 car who didn't research it properly tbh.

Bee

ninty9er wrote: »

Sorry Unkel.........but in response to Bee

Do you suggest that if income tax is raised next year to 45% it should be backdated for the previous 8 years when the higher rate was below 45%??

This system is much too messy to backdate. If you want to hire a team of software engineers to devise a system as the cost of hundreds of millions and then donate it to the government for the benefit of the rest of the country's motorists then go ahead.....


.......didn't think so!!


Systems create winners and losers....for once people at the bottom of the chain are the winners and the wealthy landowning 4.4l X5 drivers will suffer. Just be glad it's not the other way around!

There is no issue in finding out a cars emissions there is no need to hire software engineers etc,

This link will show you a cars emissions going back years, just input your make and model, it is an official uk government site.

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/


I disagree that the folk at the bottom of the food chain as you suggest will come out as winners. High emission vehichle owners can affors what they drive and they only provide a small portion of the VRT/Motor tax to the government.

Most people of modest means, bought diesels in the last few years due to the fact that they suffer a long commute due to the lack of an alternative infrastructure cost of property etc (but thats for another thread).

The same car owners will suffer from a lower resale value due to the all or nothing VRT changes and even more unfairly they will be subject to a higher rate of notor tax on an identical car based on whether it was bought prior to July 08 or not.

Understand me, I am not against an emissions based tax scheme it is the way it is being implemented. Personally on a monetary note it is irrelevent to me.

Taxes have been brought in on a phased basis on many occasions previously, to help with fairness etc. this one should be as well.

copacetic

Bee wrote: »

Taxes have been brought in on a phased basis on many occasions previously, to help with fairness etc. this one should be as well.

care to provide examples of these many occasions? surely phasing in isn't what you want anyway, backdating is?

E92

There is no reason why the motor tax rates couldn't go back to 2001. It has been mandatory since then that all car makers must publish CO2 data under EU rules.

ninty9er

The website for cars dating back to 1997 puts my CO2 emissions at 134 g/km, however it is not possible for Revenue to match this to my car as it's VRC lists V.7 as 0, nada, zilch, faic, feck all.

Computer says NO.

While in the ideal world it would be fine and dandy to apply these new rates, it ain't gonna happen for all cars and if it does, it'll only be if the VRC has a valid V.7

port

I agree with Bee.Introduce the new system for new low emmision cars from Jan/Feb/March 08 result = no deferals or cancellations of new orders = no loss of VRT revenue to Government.Extend choice of cc or emission rated road tax to all motorists on renewal=no adverse effects on future car values.Where emission rates cannot be confirmed revert to cc rating.
Introduce new system from July for new high emission cars,result =garages will have opportunity to clear existing stocks in the interim.

ninty9er

port wrote: »

I agree with Bee.Introduce the new system for new low emmision cars from Jan/Feb/March 08 result = no deferals or cancellations of new orders = no loss of VRT revenue to Government.Extend choice of cc or emission rated road tax to all motorists on renewal=no adverse effects on future car values.Where emission rates cannot be confirmed revert to cc rating.
Introduce new system from July for new high emission cars,result =garages will have opportunity to clear existing stocks in the interim.

Not the best way to do anything.

The best way would have been to make it effective from January 1st, but this may have something to do with a plan to have 2 registration periods going forewards to avoid number plates that look like phone numbers.

The system isn't perfect, but if you can't wait until July then you have no financial sense and just want the 08 plate....in effect driving th plate not the car. Not much the government can do about that.

budweiserfrogie

E92. Any chance you might have time to do the calculations on price changes for Mercedes and VW? Thanks in anticipation.

tinkerbell

Hey oh knowledgeable people!

Got a quote yesterday for a MINI Cooper for current prices:

Price €15,883.64
VAT €3,335.56
VRT €5,740.80 (current VRT)
Total €24,960 (RRP price)

What would be the new price on it and how do I calculate it? All the extras as well are subject to VRT so would like to calculate the extras as well if ye give me the formula Thanks a million, mucho appreciated!

Oh I forgot the important bit! The Cooper is a 1.6 so current rates are 25% of OMSP. Emissions are only 129g I think so new rates are 16%.

unkel

tinkerbell wrote: »

The Cooper is a 1.6 so current rates are 25% of OMSP. Emissions are only 129g I think so new rates are 16%.

24960*(1-0.25)/(1-0.16) = 22286

E92

Hmmm this is interesting, the pre VRT price should be €18,720, but I'm getting a pre VRT figure of €19,219(24,960-5741), so how are we going to work out the VRT on that. FWIW the SIMI's price list says the MINI Cooper should retail for €23,700, so I'm assuming the €24,960 comes from metallic paint and delivery and related charges.

So it should be €23,700*(1-.25)/(1-.16) = €21,160, plus delivery and related charges as well as metallic paint.

E92

budweiserfrogie wrote: »

E92. Any chance you might have time to do the calculations on price changes for Mercedes and VW? Thanks in anticipation.

There will be when I get around to it, but there are no less than 514 different Merc models available, so that takes time as the SIMI only put in the base models into their pricelist, and I will put in the whole lot!

budweiserfrogie

Thanx E92. Keep up the great work.
It'll be because of work like yours, that we might have a chance of stopping the dealers pocketing the VRT saving that the government has intended for us buyers.
We might only hope that this might become so well talked about that by July the dealers will have no choice but to pass it on.
Well done.

tinkerbell

Hey guys

Thanks for your replies, I really appreciate it! The price I gave in my post is just the price of the car only with no extras and no delivery, it's just the bog standard Cooper price. The metallic paint is extra but I didn't include that in the price either.

Maybe the SIMI price hasn't been updated for 2008 yet?

port

ninty9er wrote: »

Not the best way to do anything.

The best way would have been to make it effective from January 1st, but this may have something to do with a plan to have 2 registration periods going forewards to avoid number plates that look like phone numbers.

The system isn't perfect, but if you can't wait until July then you have no financial sense and just want the 08 plate....in effect driving th plate not the car. Not much the government can do about that.

Such dictatorial arrogance.I'm choosing to ignore your tripe in future.

unkel

E92 wrote: »

Hmmm this is interesting, the pre VRT price should be €18,720, but I'm getting a pre VRT figure of €19,219

Remember that VRT is applied to OMSP, not RRP. To allow for charges, discounts etc. That explains any small(ish) differences you'll come across

E92

budweiserfrogie wrote: »

Thanx E92. Keep up the great work.
It'll be because of work like yours, that we might have a chance of stopping the dealers pocketing the VRT saving that the government has intended for us buyers.

Your welcome. That's the reason I'm doing it. No point in reducing VRT if cars don't get cheaper.

The only caveat I have about my prices is that because I'm using RRP instead of OSMP, simply because I don't have access to OSMP, the savings/increases won't be quite as high as I have put down. So don't be surprised if things don't change as much as they should. The difference should be minimal though, like if a car is supposed to drop by €4000, don't be surprised if it is around €3,700.

RRP is slightly higher than OSMP, but the difference is small enough, so the vast majority of the saving/increase should be passed on. On the other hand, it means that the excuse of some makes "subsidizing" Irish cars should be reduced.

And the EU has rules to try and force car makers to standardise the pre tax prices, so any make that has standardised the pre tax price will really have no opportunity but to pass on the VRT savings available.

ninty9er

port wrote: »

Such dictatorial arrogance.I'm choosing to ignore your tripe in future.

:D:D:D:D
Get over yourself!

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

The only caveat I have about my prices is that because I'm using RRP instead of OSMP, simply because I don't have access to OSMP

AFAIK the motor trade uses 92% of list price to determine OMSP, Toyota does anyway.

E92

ninty9er wrote: »

AFAIK the motor trade uses 92% of list price to determine OMSP, Toyota does anyway.

Thanks for letting me know that. The differences should be still be similar enough then. Just take off around 8% of what I said.

Can anyone here in the motor trade confirm this? I just want to make sure.

DanThe

I am very interested in this too, The omsp should be the price you can pay for a car, But it seems unlikly in some cases. So if a car sells for the omsp the dealer should be still making a good profit?

If anyone could clear the omsp issue up it would be a big help in dealing with the dealers.


Thanks for the great work lads, Especialy you E92, looking at a 320d E92 myself for July..

Jumping in here as my own thread on omsp crashed on take off!

larry_b00

Hi unkel
Like everyone else I'm thinking about importing a car and with the new emission rates its worth the wait:rolleyes:, can you tell me how offical are the new rates, Ive heard general information about it in the news alright but would like to comfirm the authenticity(how offical) of the new rates espically with regard to used imports.
Don't mean to be questioning you, its just that its great news and dont want to be dissapointed by finding out the rates dont apply after waiting the extra months.

thanks

unkel wrote: »

The new system is applicable only to cars bought here new or imported (new or second hand) after 01/07/2008. It doesn't affect cars currently registered in Ireland

Motor tax:

Band A (<=120 grams per km) - €100
Band B (121-140 grams perkm) - €150
Band C (141-155 grams per km) - €290
Band D (156-170 grams per km) - €430
Band E (171-190 grams per km) - €600
Band F (191-225 grams per km) - €1,000
Band G (>225 grams per km) - €2,000

VRT:

Band A (<=120 grams per km) - 14%
Band B (121-140 grams perkm) - 16%
Band C (141-155 grams per km) - 20%
Band D (156-170 grams per km) - 24%
Band E (171-190 grams per km) - 28%
Band F (191-225 grams per km) - 32%
Band G (>225 grams per km) - 36%

A simple VRT calculation:

A BMW 320d ES (CO2 131 g/km) lists for €47.800. The current VRT rate is 30%, which means that €14,340 (30% of €47.800) is VRT. The list price excluding VRT is €47.800 minus €14,340 = €33,460

The new VRT rate is 16% (band . This means that the the new list price is €33,460 / (1-0.16) = €39,833. A saving of 8 grand!

In formula:

old list price * (1-current VRT rate) / (1-new VRT rate) = new list price

A simple motor tax calculation:

A BMW 320d ES has an annual motor tax of €588 from 01/02/2008. See here and add 9% (under 2.5l) or 11% (over 2.5l engine)

Under the new regime, the tax is €150 per year (band


Sites with CO2 information:

http://www.smmtco2.co.uk/co2search2.asp includes slightly older cars

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/ official uk site with new cars only

http://www.parkers.co.uk has older cars too going back more than 10 years

Classic cars:

Defined as being over 30 years old. These do not seem to be affected. They are VRT exempt (only due a €50 registration fee) and motor tax will be just €46 (€42 plus 9%) per year

Here's how VAT and VRT are calculated:

Same example of the current BMW 320d ES that lists for €47,800.

€27,653 pre-tax price
€ 5,807 VAT (21% of the pre-tax price of €27,653)
€14,340 VRT (30% of the list price of €47,800)

---

€47,800 Total list price

Note that the total tax is 73% on top of the pre-tax price

(€47,800 - €27,653) / €27,653 = 73%


I'll stickify this and leave it here for a while. Eventually this will be included in the charter / main sticky

Nodnedlog

Hi all

I am new to this forum and to forums in general. I was also thinking of importing used Nissan Qashqai in July. In all the reviews I have looked at and on Nissan Ireland website The CO2 is advertised as 145gms/km in the 1.5 dci version.

I Discovered recently by chance that CO2 is now 139gms/km

I phoned Nissan UK and they tried to persuade me that it was a mistake on their website and it is actually 145gms/Km. They eventually emailed me and admitted that the new CO2 was 139gms/Km and the new mpg is 57mpg up from abput 52mpg. These new figures apply from December 07 onwards.

This makes the Qashqai €150 to tax instead of €343 and vrt down to 16% from 25%.

I just wanted to highlight this as Irish Nissan dealers are playing dumb on the subject as it is obviously better to wait until July (conspiracy theory!).

I am also wondering if I buy a Feb 07 UK model (which I have my eye on) with 145gms/km on its log book what are my chances of getting it reassessed to lower it's CO2 rating?

I know they haven't changed the engines since first production and from anecdotal evidence in the following article:
www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENCARS/NISSAN%20QASHQAI%20DIESEL.htm

They do deserve a lower CO2 rating?

E92

Here is the Merc one at long long last, I never thought it would get done!

There are no less than 543 different Mercs available/will be available very soon.

The Mercs are going to get clobbered on emissions, the most popular 4 cylinder Kompressor models are mostly in the 32% VRT band compared to 25% now, the 6 pot petrols are by and large in 36% VRT, all I can say is that the CGI technology can't come fast enough before Mercs get ridiculously overpriced(I always thought they were overpriced anyway), even the 4 cylinder diesels are attracting 24 and 28% VRT.

They offer a stupendous amount of cars that pollute more than 225 g/km of CO2(therefore 36% VRT), again as I've said before, I can see where the Government are going to make money on this scheme!

The_Conductor

Nodnedlog wrote: »

I am also wondering if I buy a Feb 07 UK model (which I have my eye on) with 145gms/km on its log book what are my chances of getting it reassessed to lower it's CO2 rating?

They may not have physically changed the engine- it may however be retuned on a lower setting- hence the difference in CO2 emissions. It happens regularly- normally the other way around though- particularly in the case of performance cars trying to get every little ounce of extra power. Re: getting the 145gms/km reaccessed- good luck. I'd almost be shocked if they allow the lower amount- particularly if it is on the logbook at the higher level.

Dermo123

A work colleague sent on a very good list of all cars (over 3500) CO2 rates and motor tax changes that will apply after July 2008. I cannot upload it as it is 1.8Meg. If anyone has any ideas it is a very handy look up tool. It is not undermining what E92 is doing as its emphasis is on motor tax.